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* ara waves16:00
* skaet looks around16:00
skaethi ara16:00
MootBotMeeting started at 10:01. The chair is skaet.16:01
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]16:01
skaethi Daviey16:01
skaetThe priority for today's meeting is to figure out where we are with
skaethi cjwatson16:02
skaetcjwatson, pitti - where are we with the 10.04.2 images?16:02
pittihello all16:02
pittithey build fine, and automatically16:03
victorpskaet - hi16:03
pittiI just gave an update wrt. proposed vs. updates this morning via email16:03
skaethi pitti, victorp16:03
cjwatsonright, that's the main thing we're waiting for at the moment16:03
pittithey currently build from -proposed, as we still need to verify some SRUs16:03
cjwatsonone regression known to me, bug 70969416:03
ubottuLaunchpad bug 709694 in linux-backports-modules-2.6.32 (Ubuntu Lucid) "Lucid package linux-backports-modules-wireless-lucid-generic broken" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/70969416:03
pittiin particular, d-i and installing with the maverick kernel16:03
cjwatsonI believe pitti is handling that16:04
pitticjwatson: was tested, copying to -updates nwo16:04
=== wendar_ is now known as wendar
skaetpitti,  so when will there be an image for ara's team to use?16:05
pittiI still think we should use the current ones for certification (with -proposed)16:05
cjwatsonI concur16:05
pittiafter a quick test from QA that they install at all (in VM should be fine)16:05
pittiinstall in normal lucid as well as "maverick backport kernel" modes16:05
pittid-i and eglibc are the only potentailly hw specific packages16:06
pittiand we already cleaned up the questionable ones from -proposed16:06
arapitti, the thing is that I don't understand why you don't think those packages are safe enough to move to -updates, yet they are safe to use for certification16:06
cjwatson-updates would cause every user to upgrade16:06
pittiara: well, the point of that is testing, isn't it?16:06
pittiif we already knew that they don't break anything, then we wouldn't need a cert run16:07
pittiOTOH, if cert passes with those, we can move everything to -updates and are good to go16:07
pittiara: we don't know of any breakage in the current proposed packages, but nobody tested them yet16:07
skaetjibel, pedro_ ^^ is a test of -proposed as outlined by pitti possible today?16:07
cjwatsonthe reason to be cautious about cert on -proposed would be if there were several things likely to be pulled out16:08
arapitti, the point in running a full cert is to "certify" that they keep working, more than testing if it breaks16:08
cjwatsonas pitti said, he already removed the questionable proposals, so we're now looking at *unexpected* problems16:08
pittiara: ok, then we need "normal" sru testing before16:08
arapitti, we tested it, last week16:08
cjwatsonI don't think we should waive the waiting period for cert, so if cert can't use -proposed, the only remaining option is to push through validation16:09
pittiara: oh? didn't see that; was that with the current d-i already?16:09
arapitti, when was that uploaded to -proposed?16:10
cjwatson -- Colin Watson <cjwatson@ubuntu.com>  Tue, 25 Jan 2011 11:19:31 +000016:10
cjwatsonbut it would have needed explicit testing with the maverick boot option, not just "still works as normal"16:10
aracjwatson, we didn't test the maverick boot option, that's for sure16:10
sconklinnever mind16:12
skaethi jibel,  go ahead16:12
jibelhi, to answer your question, there are only 2 packages in -proposed that we can really test : base-files and unattended-upgrades16:13
cjwatsonI don't understand why it isn't possible for QA to test d-i16:13
pittijibel: i. e. QA can't do install smoketests?16:14
jibelyes I can, but at the moment I'm rather low on resources smoketesting A216:14
cjwatsonyou may not be able to confirm that it fixes a given piece of hardware, but you can confirm that it installs successfully and that it uses the proper kernel version both during installation and on the installed system16:14
pitti(i. e. same like for normal alphas, using the iso tracker)16:14
cjwatson(you plural)16:14
pittiperhaps we can also have some community testing on alpha216:15
jibelThe last package I've validated this way, 'check that it installs' was ubuntu-docs and now users of maverick think they are running natty :(16:15
pittiand I can certainly help testing images as well16:15
pittijibel: (^ that's fixed in -proposed, FYI)16:15
pittiactuall in -updates already, I think16:15
cjwatsonwasn't that xubuntu-docs anyway?16:16
pittino, ubuntu-docs16:16
skaethmm, so we appear to have run smack into the a2 testing crunch we were afraid of.16:17
skaetjibel,  what's your current plan for today?16:18
jibelskaet, I'm nearly done with A2 smoketest, now syncing DVDs, I can do lucid d-i instead.16:18
cjwatsonnote that the lucid images that need testing in particular for this are DVDs, both amd64 and i38616:19
cjwatsonI can do lucid DVD i386 if people don't mind me doing it as the person who wrote the code16:20
jibelyes. I can sync that now and post the results tomorrow morning.16:20
skaetjibel,  thanks.16:20
araawesome, thanks jibel16:20
skaetcjwatson,  not worried.  :)16:20
jibelskaet, but no smoketest of natty a2 dvd if you agree.16:20
pittiI think 10.04.2 CDs are more urgent wrt. that16:21
skaetjibel,  ok,  don't think we have a choice at this point - if we want to get the 10.04.2 cert run done.16:21
pittiwe'll get more community feedback on natty alphas than for lucid point releases16:21
arapitti, agreed16:21
ScottKAnd undetected problems in an Alpha release are much less important than a problem in an LTS point release.16:22
* skaet nods16:22
skaetok,  so A2 smoke test of DVDs goes on the shelf, and we smoke test lucid, so hw cert can start tomorrow (if all goes well)16:23
skaetare the A2 images ready to go to the iso tracker?  (so we can get community testing started on those)16:24
pittiif we get results for the DVD in both modes, d-i can go to -updates16:24
skaetpitti,  ack16:24
cjwatsona2> no, I was expecting that to start with tomorrow's autobuilds16:24
pittionce hw cert passes, eglibc and basic stuff like consolekit can go, too16:24
cjwatsonso that still means running cert against an image built from -proposed16:25
pittiI did some smoketesting on the natty dailies last week and yesterday, looks ok so far16:25
cjwatsonwhich I'm happy with, but we seemed to be at an impasse on it earlier16:25
pittiif we don't run cert against -proposed, we can alternatively switch to -updates right after the d-i smoketest16:25
hggdhand we are still running the server dailies on Hudson16:25
pittiand test the other packages separately, as usual16:25
cjwatsonI don't agree - that would mean dropping a bunch of stuff out16:25
cjwatsonI think that would create substantial confusion CD-wise16:25
pittithe disadvantage is that we'll do a hw cert test against an older version of pacakges16:26
pittiand the actual 10.04.2 release will be different than what has been tested16:26
cjwatsonalso, the upstart patch is such that it should be on the CD16:26
pittithat's why I'd much prefer hw cert against the -proposed ones16:26
pittibut I think if that's a no-go, we could cope16:26
arapitti, anyway, we won't be finishing full cert until late next week16:26
aracjwatson, why building from -updates will mean that the rest will go out?16:28
aracjwatson, are we building only one daily from -updates16:28
pittiif we require that "image that hw cert tests" == "released image", we'll need to postpone the remaingin proposed updates until after 10.04.2 and miss those fixes16:29
pittiwhich would be unfortunate16:29
pittiif hw cert is testing the current images, then they would be in16:29
pittifor all intents and purposes, the current dailies are the final 10.04.2 release16:29
cjwatsonara: we only build one set of dailies, and they are from -proposed16:29
pittiunless testing/cert detects regressions16:29
cjwatsonara: the effect of switching to -updates is that anyone testing the CDs tests only -updates16:29
skaetcjwatson,  pitti,   let me see if I've got it straight -  QA suspends rest of A2's smoke tests for today and A2 tomorrow images is for iso tracker (not ideal, but low risk);   10.04.2 - we get DVD runs from QA (and other volunteers) with current dailies (which will become 10.04.2), so we can move to updates,  then hw cert can start?16:30
cjwatsonalpha images have nearly always gone to the ISO tracker on Tuesday, in practice.16:31
araskaet, if d-i and eglibc are in -updates, we are happy to test from -proposed16:31
skaetcjwatson,  ack16:32
cjwatsonit's also what https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MilestoneProcess says - "release minus 2 days"16:32
skaetjibel, go ahead16:34
jibelre a2, during smoketest I've identified 2 showstoppers  on amd64 bug 710582 and bug 710612 .16:34
ubottuLaunchpad bug 710582 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Natty) "ubiquity crashes after step 'Who are you' : segfault in libwebkitgtk-1.0.so.0.5.2 on AMD64" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/71058216:34
ubottuLaunchpad bug 710612 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Natty) "Kubuntu Desktop AMD64 - ubiquity kde_ui crash with File "/usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/debconf.py", line 70, in command self.write.flush() IOError: [Errno 32] Broken pipe" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/71061216:34
jibelIt would be great if someone could confirm it's not just me.16:35
jibel(or better that it is just me)16:35
pittithe second was discussed this morning on #u-devel, I think that's not just you16:36
pitti(unfortunately I don't remember/have read the outcome)16:36
cjwatsonit was discussed as a result of jibel mentioning it :-)16:36
cjwatsonand that was just me saying "not a debconf bug"16:36
RiddellI couldn't confirm bug 710612 with today's ISO16:37
ubottuLaunchpad bug 710612 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Natty) "Kubuntu Desktop AMD64 - ubiquity kde_ui crash with File "/usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/debconf.py", line 70, in command self.write.flush() IOError: [Errno 32] Broken pipe" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/71061216:37
skaetjibel, thanks.  will work with others then after this meeting to get someone else to confirm 71058216:38
cjwatsonI poked ev about jibel's latest reply to 71058216:38
jibelskaet, thanks16:38
skaetcjwatson, thanks16:38
cjwatsonI don't think it would strongly benefit from other people reproducing it16:38
cjwatsonunless those other people are able to debug webkit directly16:38
skaetheh,  fair 'nuf16:38
cjwatson710612 is probably a race of some kind :-/16:39
skaetokie,  back to 10.04.2 then...16:39
cjwatsonI expect it depends on how long you take to respond to the parallelised questions16:39
* skaet is still jetlagged - parallelised questions isn't parsing 16:41
cjwatsonit's a detail of installer design16:41
cjwatsonrelevant to 71061216:41
pitticjwatson: ubiquity is copying files while the user still creates accounts, sets time zone, etc.16:41
pittithat happens in parallel since maverick16:41
* cjwatson thinks pitti meant to direct that to skaet16:42
pittioops, yes16:42
cjwatsonanyway, yes, 10.04.216:42
* skaet light dawns.... thought "you" was in reference to something I needed to answer about 10.04.2, not 710582.... ok, clarity. 16:43
cjwatsonah, right, sorry16:43
skaetgo ara,  I think your questions are the ones we need answered now..16:43
araOK, so I think that if, as pitti says, QA tests d-i, d-i and eglibc can go to -updates16:44
araand we are happy to run cert  from -proposed cds once those are in -updates16:44
arapitti, those are the packages that can affect hw, are they?16:44
pittiara: right16:45
pittibut eglibc also needs extra verification16:45
pittiso a pure smoketest isn't enough for eglibc IMHO16:45
cjwatsonhm, there is one quirk here16:45
cjwatsonthis only applies to live filesystems16:46
cjwatsonbut live filesystems that are built against -proposed contain -proposed in their sources.list16:46
cjwatsonI don't think that's preserved in the installed system, but it means that people e.g. upgrading live USB sticks get stuff from -proposed16:46
cjwatsonI don't think we should release that way16:46
cjwatsonso, sorry to put a spanner in the works, but if cert must check the final candidate images, then I think we may really need to finish verification before cert starts16:47
pittibut that shouldn't matter for hw cert, just for final validation?16:47
pitti(i. e. after rebuilding the CD from -updates only at the end)16:47
cjwatsonwith the exception of server images, which could go ahead16:47
cjwatsonhence my "if"16:47
pittiI thought hw certification would be by and large "test default install on different hw" while validation would be "test all install modes on pretty much one kind of hw"16:48
pittiso for hw cert a CD rebuild wouldn't hurt, but it mustn't happen for the latter?16:49
cjwatsonare folks agreed that cert does not have to be on the very final set of images that we release?16:49
skaetcjwatson, hw cert is testing the functional equivalent, rather than the final.16:49
cjwatsonin that case I withdraw my spanner16:49
skaetheh,  that's what was discussed in dallas..16:49
aracjwatson, yes, the images don't need to be final, but we need everything that affects hw in -updates16:49
cjwatsonround and round we go.  sorry.16:49
skaetok,  jibel,  are you good with the d-i and eglibc testing today?16:50
jibelskaet, d-i ok, eglibc, I can only install, which doesn't verify anything.16:52
skaetjibel,  thanks16:53
arahggdh should be able to verify https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/eglibc/+bug/69477216:53
skaetcjwatson,  what's needed before the eglibc can be moved to updates?16:53
ubottuUbuntu bug 694772 in Ubuntu Studio "Sudden reboot during server ISO install" [Critical,Confirmed]16:53
pittibug 702190  is a nuisance to verify, as it doesn't have a test case; if it passes an install check, I'd consider that enough regression testing, though16:54
ubottuLaunchpad bug 702190 in eglibc (Ubuntu Lucid) "__strncmp_ssse3 can segfault when it over-reads its buffer" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/70219016:54
cjwatsonpitti may or may not agree, but TBH, it's had enough pre-release testing that I'd be happy with regression testing16:54
skaetthanks cjwatson, pitti.   ok16:54
pittibug 694772 should be verified as part of validation testing, as it happened during iso tests16:54
ubottuLaunchpad bug 694772 in Ubuntu Studio "Sudden reboot during server ISO install" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/69477216:54
cjwatson702190 does have a test case, it's just rather opaque and involves compiling and running a program on the right kind of hardware (comment 1)16:55
pittibug 672177  is the third eglibc bug and should be testable during validation16:55
ubottuLaunchpad bug 672177 in upstart (Ubuntu Natty) "libc6 upgrade causes umount to fail on shutdown because init cannot be restarted" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/67217716:55
cjwatsonit's also a multi-part bug - I think the pre-release testing has covered much of that, although it's known not to be sufficient on its own16:56
skaethggdh, can you help out on 694772?16:57
cjwatsonso on the whole I think install + upgrade smoketests should be sufficient for that16:58
cjwatsonotherwise it could easily be a rabbithole that consumes QA forever16:58
skaetcjwatson,   ok.16:58
hggdhskaet, looking into it16:59
skaetthanks hggdh.16:59
skaetjibel:  are you ok with cjwatson's proposal?16:59
jibelskaet, if everybody is ok, I'm fine with his proposal.17:00
skaetpitti, you ok?17:01
skaetok, that's the plan then.17:01
skaetwe'll carry this conversation over to #u-release17:02
skaetwe're running late now17:02
skaetany other critical issues to bring up?17:02
hggdhpitti, for 694772 -- is it OK if I install the updates, then reboot into busybox and send in a telinit u?17:02
cjwatsonas long as it's busybox init ...17:03
cjwatson(this may not be entirely trivial to arrange)17:03
cjwatsonit might be easier to boot the server CD in rescue mode and then use 'telinit u' there17:04
pittihggdh: I thought the fix in eglibc was to precisely not to that?17:04
cjwatsonbut none of that validates whether eglibc is doing the right thing in its postinst, of course!17:04
cjwatsonso actually I don't think that's a valid test17:04
cjwatsonyeah, pitti's right too17:04
hggdhdarn, indeed :-(17:05
pittiI'd think the test case for this is "validate that the server iso installs"?17:05
cjwatsonhggdh's proposal is a way to test upstart in isolation17:05
cjwatsonbut I agree with pitti, I don't think there's much point in lots of detailed messing about here17:05
hggdhthe problem is I would need to be in ISO install to test17:05
pittinote that upstart only adds a breaks to older eglibc versions17:06
cjwatsonwe haven't fixed the upstart part yet anyway17:06
pittii. e. testing the the new upstart in isolation won't give us anything for this bug17:06
cjwatsonany d-i install smoketest by anyone would be sufficient validation for 69477217:06
pittiI agree17:06
aracjwatson, then jibel's test should be enough?17:07
cjwatsonit wouldn't be comprehensive proof, but the server team have been working on establishing that independently.  it would be regression-testing, which I think in this case will be enough17:07
skaeton that note, probably time to end the meeting.17:08
skaetthanks cjwatson, pitti, ara, jibel, hggdh, Riddell, ScottK17:08
MootBotMeeting finished at 11:09.17:09
arathanks skaet, all!17:09
pittithanks everyone *phew*17:09
skaetjibel, can you hang out in #u-release today - so we can work through this.17:10
* skaet agrees with pitti - *phew*.... need more 'spresso!17:10
jibelskaet, after 2000UTC, when everything is back to normal here, I need to deal with the kids now, see you later.17:13
skaetjibel,  thanks!17:13
* sbeattie waves18:03
jdstrandshall I run the meeting?18:03
* mdeslaur pushes jdstrand to front of room18:04
jdstrandok then :)18:04
MootBotMeeting started at 12:04. The chair is jdstrand.18:04
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]18:04
jdstrand[TOPIC] weekly standup report18:05
MootBotNew Topic:  weekly standup report18:05
jdstrandI've got several things tugging at me at present18:05
jdstrandI am helping the release team with my archive admin duties, and that has slowed me down a bit as I learn the processes18:06
jdstrandI'm working on the dbus-glib update and the qrt script for dbus bindings18:07
jdstrandthere is also a lot of various followup work I am trying to catchup on18:07
jdstrandthat should be it for me18:08
jdstrandkees: you're up18:08
keesI've got OOo to publish, and kernel to do USNs for18:08
keesI'm on triage, and I'm going to try to clean up some of the open security bugs18:09
keesI've also got a regression in the kernel I need to test a fix for. I'm kind of all over the place.18:09
keesthat's it, mdeslaur you're up :)18:09
mdeslaurI'm writing a subversion test script. I should get it published today18:09
mdeslaurafter that, I was to work on the new fuse stuff18:10
mdeslaurand maybe take a look at exim4 if I have time18:10
mdeslaurthat's it.18:10
mdeslaursbeattie: you're next18:10
sbeattieI'm on community this week.18:11
sbeattieI've got another openjdk update planned this week; amazingly the arm hamsters managed to complete all the builds over the weekend.18:12
sbeattieso I'll be testing those today.18:12
sbeattieI need to put together snapshots for apparmor 2.5.2 and 2.6.0 releases at some point, but that's been stalled on reviewing patches for
sbeattieI think that's it for me.18:13
jdstrand[TOPIC] miscellaneous18:14
MootBotNew Topic:  miscellaneous18:14
jdstrandso I have several random things to bring up that have been sitting in tomboy for far too long :)18:14
jdstrandfirst (and speaking of apparmor), we need to have an upstream apparmor meeting18:15
jdstrandis that something we can do this week?18:15
jdstrand(to discuss the rally stuff)18:15
jdstrandwe can schedule that in #apparmor18:15
jdstrandone thing that has been asked of the security team in the past, and mentioned to be recently, is that we should strive to be as open as possible18:16
jdstrandI'd like to provide summaries of our weekly security meetings somewhere18:17
=== oubiwann_ is now known as oubiwann
jdstrandI'm not sure where. I'm not convinced it is super interesting to devel@, so I thought maybe somewhere in the wiki?18:17
keessummary of the stand-up?18:17
jdstrandkees: stand-up and anything else. ie, this meeting :)18:18
mdeslaurjdstrand: our activity reports are way more interesting than our meetings...18:18
jdstrandmdeslaur: yes, but other teams do log there meetings (eg, the server team)18:19
mdeslaurunless we talk about something other than what we have planned for the week18:19
keesI'm not opposed to it, but it seems like summarizing our stand-ups isn't very useful. if it was a long meeting, it would make more sense?18:19
jdstrandnow, there could be a concern about people saying "I'm going to work on this", get sidetracked and not do it, and then mentioning it the next week18:19
* ScottK suspects it's interesting enough for ubuntu-devel.18:19
jdstrandI'm open to not doing anything with the stand-up report (ie "I'm working on foo this week"), but including the other bits as they come up18:20
jdstrandwhat do other people think?18:20
keesyeah, I'm not against it, I just question the value. if people think there's value, then let's do it.18:20
jdstrandwell, in a discussion I had it was implied that it should be done, and it isn't18:21
jdstrandso I am trying to figure out the best way to do that18:21
* jjohansen thinks its extra work for very little gain18:21
jdstrandjjohansen: maybe, but it is an action item I can take18:22
mdeslaurjdstrand: I wouldn't include the stand up report, but if we discuss anything else it could be worth it18:22
jdstrandI don't think it is much work. our meetings are short, the summary even more so18:22
jdstrandmdeslaur: well, what if we did this:18:23
jdstrandkees is on triage, sbeattie is on community. sbeattie also hopes to work on apparmor 2.5.218:23
jdstrandie, don't mention the specific security updates/audits we are working on18:23
mdeslaurthat's fine18:24
jdstrandjust that 'mdeslaur is working on foo in addition to various security updates)18:24
jdstrandI'll come up with some sort of summary, and we can discuss it outside of the meeting18:24
jdstrand[ACTION] jdstrand to write up meeting minutes and submit to team for review18:25
MootBotACTION received:  jdstrand to write up meeting minutes and submit to team for review18:25
jdstrandperhaps we can table where the will reside based on what we decide should be in them18:25
jdstrands/the will/they will/18:25
jdstrandI also have various items from my rally notes that I think should either be assigned or documented somewhere for todo18:26
jdstrandplease feel free to add any to this list18:27
jdstrand* respin ia32-libs (natty and earlier)18:27
jdstrand* add mvo's apt script to qrt18:27
jdstrand* kernel capabilities tests18:27
jdstrand* kernel keyring tests (LTP?)18:27
jdstrand* /etc/apparmor.d/mysqld.d for akonadi (currently assigned to me)18:28
mvojdstrand: hm?18:28
jdstrand* vm-iso changes to get rid of vm-new stuff18:28
jdstrandmvo: hi! not an action item for you18:28
jdstrandmvo: we discussed at the rally how we might want to snag your apt tests18:28
jdstrandmvo: and somehow incorporate them into qa-regression-testing18:28
MootBotLINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~mvo/apt/auth-test-suit/18:29
jdstrandmvo: and then conceivably run them on a release basis to be sure we are ok18:29
mvoaha, this one :)18:29
jdstrand* add ipc to kernel tests18:29
jdstrandso, with the exception of ia32 and akonadi, it seems it is fine and appropriate to add these as TODO's to the various scripts if we don18:30
jdstrand't/can't do them right away18:30
jdstranddoes anyone want to claim any of these? the akonadi one is assigned to me currently, but it is likely I won't get to it anytime soon, so can consider that up for grabs18:31
mdeslaurI can put ia32-libs at the end of my to-do list18:31
keeswhat were the details on the caps tests?18:31
keesjust for qrt?18:32
jdstrandkees: yeah-- something in qrt to verify that they work properly18:32
* kees ponders18:32
jdstrandkees: positive and negative tests18:32
keesI can take it, but it's not going to be very high priority for a while.18:32
jdstrandoh sure18:32
sbeattiewhat sort of tests for caps?18:32
jdstrandthis isn't about 'can we do it *now*' as much as if people want to do it, they can claim it, otherwise we can just pop it into the script as a todo18:33
* sbeattie notes the apparmor regression tests test a few of the capabilities, but doesn't test the whole bounding set/inheritance stuff.18:33
jdstrand[ACTION] mdeslaur to take ia32-libs when time allows18:33
MootBotACTION received:  mdeslaur to take ia32-libs when time allows18:33
mdeslaurso, I can put ia32-libs on my to-do list, just as long as you don't expect it to ever get done18:33
sbeattieactually, I should probably take a look at that one, to learn how its done.18:34
kees[ACTION] kees to take kernel capabilities tests when time allows18:34
jdstrandmdeslaur: you cool with sbeattie doing that?18:34
keesaw, that only works for the chair, unlike urls18:34
jdstrand[ACTION] kees to take kernel capabilities tests when time allows18:34
MootBotACTION received:  kees to take kernel capabilities tests when time allows18:34
jdstrandI think the apt and keyring ones are pretty big18:35
jdstrandI'll add TODO notes for them, and maybe Roadmap the apt one18:35
sbeattieyeah, kernel keyring's had lots of bugs.18:36
jdstrand[ACTION] jdstrand to add keyring and apt tests to TODO in the scripts18:36
mdeslaurjdstrand: sure, I don't care18:36
MootBotACTION received:  jdstrand to add keyring and apt tests to TODO in the scripts18:36
mdeslaurjdstrand: either way, I won't be doing it :)18:36
jdstrand[ACTION] sbeattie to respin ia32-libds18:36
MootBotACTION received:  sbeattie to respin ia32-libds18:36
jdstrandsbeattie: I'd focus on natty first, then maybe do earlier releases?18:37
keess'okay, we'll have multiarch before natty releases, and then we won't need ia32-libs! :)18:37
mdeslaurkees: lol18:37
keesslangasek: right? ^^ :)18:37
slangasekcan't promise ia32-libs will go away this cycle18:37
slangasekespecially as Yokozar has been adding more packages to it on the other end18:37
slangasekwhich I'm unhappy about but am not going to meddle with18:38
jdstrandsbeattie: oh, if Yokozar's been doing that, natty may not need the respin anyway18:38
jdstrandso no one took the akonadi one. I'll leave it on my todo liest then18:38
jdstrandthat leaves vm-iso. how important is this?18:38
sbeattiejdstrand: I have it on my personal todo list as well, but not sure when I'll get the round tuits.18:39
mdeslaurjdstrand: what is the vm-iso one?18:39
sbeattie(it == mysql-akonadi)18:39
jdstrandsbeattie: k. if one of us starts, let's let the other know18:39
sbeattiejdstrand: will do.18:39
jdstrand[ACTION] mysql/akonadi work coordinated between sbeattie and jdstrand18:39
MootBotACTION received:  mysql/akonadi work coordinated between sbeattie and jdstrand18:39
jdstrandoh, I can take the kernel ipc tests for qrt18:40
jdstrand(fallout from dbus work)18:40
jdstrand[ACTION] jdstrand to add kernel ipc tests to qrt18:40
MootBotACTION received:  jdstrand to add kernel ipc tests to qrt18:40
jdstrandok. back to vm-iso. how important is this? on the one hand, vmbuilder has been a handful, on the other hand it mostly works18:41
keesjdstrand: I think it's as important as the person wanting to use it makes it. i.e. I think I was the one complaining about vmbuilder, so if I'm going to use vm-iso, I should work on it.18:42
jdstrand(vm-iso is from ubuntu-qa-tools/vm-tools and it has been suggested we use that instead of vm-new for creating new VMs (see wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/TestingEnvironment)18:43
jdstrandkees: fair enough18:43
jdstrandkees: I don't think it needs an action or assignment18:43
jdstrandI just had it on my list to bring up18:43
keescool by me18:44
mdeslaurjdstrand: put it here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Roadmap18:44
jdstranddoes anyone have anything else from the rally that we should get out of our personal notes and assigned or put some where?18:44
jdstrand[ACTION] jdstrand to add vm-iso work to Roadmap18:45
MootBotACTION received:  jdstrand to add vm-iso work to Roadmap18:45
keesI'll check my laptop, but I don't have that list handy at the moment.18:45
jdstrand(excepting apparmor stuff)18:45
kees(it was short, if not empty)18:45
jdstrandthat's cool18:45
jdstrandI think that is everything on my list18:45
jdstrandoh, want to talk to skaet about dapper eol18:45
jdstrandskaet: you around? :)18:46
* jdstrand takes that as a no18:46
jdstrand[ACTION] jdstrand to followup with skaet regarding dapper eol announcement18:47
MootBotACTION received:  jdstrand to followup with skaet regarding dapper eol announcement18:47
keesbtw, I'm going to replace u-maint with ubuntu-dev-tools's update-maintainer.18:47
jdstrandkees: oh? not the other way around?18:47
keesjdstrand: all the missing logic is included in udt's version now.18:48
jdstrandI thought you said u-maint had some advantages over update-maintainer18:48
jdstrandsweet :)18:48
jdstrandno more 2 year lag for us anymore! :P18:48
keesit did, but that's been fixed now, after I pointed it out. There's one feature left I'm going to forward.18:48
jdstrandI'm sorry. 18 months18:48
jdstrand[ACTION] kees to update umt to use update-maintainer18:49
MootBotACTION received:  kees to update umt to use update-maintainer18:49
jdstrand[TOPIC] questions18:49
MootBotNew Topic:  questions18:49
jdstranddoes anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?18:49
keesnothing here18:51
jdstrandalrighty then18:52
jdstrandthanks everyone!18:52
MootBotMeeting finished at 12:52.18:52
keesthanks jdstrand!18:52
jdstrandsure! :)18:52
* persia looks for stgraber19:01
cdbspoolie, welcome!19:01
pooliehi cdbs19:02
ari-tczewpersia: Are new DMB members know?19:03
persiaari-tczew, No.  See https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-January/000653.html and followups19:04
bdrungstgraber: meeting or not meeting?19:06
persiaI think we want a meeting, but it's a matter of chair.19:06
ari-tczewpersia: so yours memberships were extended, when we get to know new members?19:06
persiaari-tczew, When they are decided.19:06
ari-tczewpersia: I'd like to vote, but I guess is out of time.19:06
persiaRather the opposite: the nomination period just ended: a request for input from Ubuntu Developers will start soon.19:07
cdbsari-tczew, Did you apply for nomination?19:07
ari-tczewcdbs: not me, I want to vote for someone else.19:08
cdbsI just tried my luck, though I am pretty much sure I won't get in19:08
pooliehi persia19:08
persiaHey poolie19:08
ari-tczewcdbs: your changes are more than me anyway :P19:08
persiabdrung, stgraber seems afk, would you mind taking over?19:09
bdrungcody-somerville, cjwatson, soren, stgraber: DMB meeting now!19:10
cody-somervilleI'm very sorry. I unfortunately won't be able to make today's meeting.19:10
cjwatsonoh, seriously?  bah19:10
bdrungare we quorable?19:11
cody-somervilleI'll send a write-up re: Marco via e-mail in lieu19:11
persiaWe are if cody-somerville can attend :)19:11
bdrung(if that's a word)19:11
* cody-somerville is just about to head out the door to Ottawa otherwise he'd be here.19:11
persiaSo we're waiting on one of geser, stgraber, soren to be quorate19:12
poolieperhaps the board should get bigger, or the quorum requirement should get smaller?19:13
bdrungi pinged geser on devel19:13
persiapoolie, The two are tightly linked.  That said, if too much time passes, we could perhaps begin, and resolve outstanding votes via email (as poolie is here, by special arrangement)19:14
bdrungok, let's start then19:16
MootBotMeeting started at 13:16. The chair is bdrung.19:16
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]19:16
bdrung[TOPIC] Review of previous action items19:16
MootBotNew Topic:  Review of previous action items19:16
bdrungpoolie is here, so the first point is processed19:17
* cjwatson switches to his phone, sorry, had already booked family time without noticing this meeting so will have to get off the laptop19:17
bdrungpersia started the selection process for DMB renewal and requested a term extension for current DMB members19:18
persiaDoes anyone have permission to flush the d-m-b@ moderation queue?  I think we have 10 nominees, but there's at least one I've had confirmed on IRC for whom I haven't seen the mail yet.19:19
cjwatsonpersia: I do19:21
ari-tczewpersia: do you have informations who has been nominated?19:21
persiaari-tczew, Yes.19:21
ari-tczewpersia: pm19:21
cjwatsonbut it's empty anyway19:22
persiaAh, went to me personally.  I'll forward.19:23
* persia needs to check headers more carefully19:23
bdrung[TOPIC] Review progress of probationary period of Marco Rodrigues19:23
MootBotNew Topic:  Review progress of probationary period of Marco Rodrigues19:23
persiaLet's skip this, as cody-somerville is on his way to Ottawa and sending email.  Maybe [ACTION] it?19:24
bdrung[ACTION] cody-somerville to write-up progress of probationary period of Marco Rodrigues19:24
MootBotACTION received:  cody-somerville to write-up progress of probationary period of Marco Rodrigues19:24
bdrung[TOPIC] Confirm renewal of MOTU status for Bhavani Shankar19:25
MootBotNew Topic:  Confirm renewal of MOTU status for Bhavani Shankar19:25
persiaSo, six months ago we granted bhavi probabtionary MOTU status.  We're supposed to review that.  Personally, I haven't seen any issues: has anyone else?19:25
bdrungi haven't19:25
ari-tczewSorry for interrupt. I want to see bhavi still in MOTU.19:26
cjwatsonI've seen some teething troubles, but generally things seem OK now from my POV19:27
bdrungdo we need to vote?19:27
persiaLet's do so formally, as we have to pass to email anyway.19:27
bdrung[VOTE] renewal of MOTU status for Bhavani Shankar19:29
MootBotPlease vote on:  renewal of MOTU status for Bhavani Shankar.19:29
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot19:29
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting19:29
MootBot+1 received from bdrung. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 119:29
MootBot+1 received from cjwatson. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 219:29
persia+1 : most of my concerns from the time of application have been addressed during the probationary period19:29
MootBot+1 received from persia. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 319:29
MootBotFinal result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 319:30
bdrung[ACTION] collect vote from other DMB members via email19:31
MootBotACTION received:  collect vote from other DMB members via email19:31
bdrung[TOPIC] Martin Pool's application for per-package upload rights for bzr and related packages19:32
MootBotNew Topic:  Martin Pool's application for per-package upload rights for bzr and related packages19:32
bdrunggeser: hi. we reached the quorum.19:33
bdrung[TOPIC] Confirm renewal of MOTU status for Bhavani Shankar19:33
MootBotNew Topic:  Confirm renewal of MOTU status for Bhavani Shankar19:33
bdrunggeser: Six months ago we granted bhavi probabtionary MOTU status. We haven't seen any issue since then, did you? Are you ready to vote?19:35
geserI didn't heard about any complains and I'm ready to vote19:35
bdrung[VOTE] renewal of MOTU status for Bhavani Shankar19:35
MootBotPlease vote on:  renewal of MOTU status for Bhavani Shankar.19:35
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot19:35
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting19:35
pooliehi, yes, i'm here19:36
pooliei don't do a lot of packaging, but i think i know enough not to be dangerous19:37
persiageser, ?  The rest of us voted.  Vote is at +3.19:37
MootBot+1 received from geser. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 119:37
pooliei think having ppu would help me push proposed bzr SRUs into -proposed, where they can be reviewed, and this would save people some time19:38
MootBotFinal result is 1 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 119:38
bdrungsumma summarum that's four of us19:38
bdrung[TOPIC] Martin Pool's application for per-package upload rights for bzr and related packages19:40
MootBotNew Topic:  Martin Pool's application for per-package upload rights for bzr and related packages19:40
persiapoolie, When considering the differences between SRUs and security updates, what must one concern oneself about in terms of ensuring the user is not surprised by the output of bzr?19:40
bdrung[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MartinPool/DeveloperApplication19:40
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MartinPool/DeveloperApplication19:40
pooliepersia, security updates are more conservative19:41
poolieand i wouldn't expect our MRE would apply there19:41
poolieso, there should not be any changes to the output of bzr, unless they are absolutely necessary to fix the security problem19:41
pooliebdrung, micro release exception19:41
pooliethe TB agreed that for instance bzr should upload 2.2.x into Maverick that originally shipped with 2.2.019:42
pooliethis process is very halting at the moment and i'd like to see it flow more smoothly19:42
pooliepersia, is that the answer you were you asking  looking for, or are you asking about some more specific aspect of bzr output?19:44
persiaThat's fine.  The only part of the differences between -security and -updates you didn't mention is about build-dependencies, which affect things, but aren't so important in the context of bzr.19:45
geserpoolie: so the most benefit of PPU for you would be SRU and normal uploads to natty still go through Debian and sync?19:45
poolieright, so we/i know to not change them in updates either19:45
pooliethis is a little more conservative than is required but we can normally do that19:46
pooliegeser, basically19:46
pooliewe have a pretty good pipelines of maxb and jelmer uploading to debian, but it falls down a bit for ubuntu-specific uploads19:46
pooliei would like to do some more ubuntu work generally, but that's the specific thing19:47
bdrungpoolie: are you involved in packaging bzr on the debian side?19:48
pooliebdrung, mostly by committing to our packaging branches, and then jelmer or max will upload from there19:49
poolienot quite so much of that at the moment as they've been taking more of the initiative19:49
poolieoh, i might also mention that i did a lot of work on packaging bzr into PPAs19:50
persiapoolie, The latest version of bzr in maverick (representing the sort of SRU you're likely to be targeting) has an automatic patch in debian/patches : How do you think this might be better represented?19:50
bdrung2.2.0-1 and 2.2.1-0ubuntu1 added automatic patches to debian/patches19:53
pooliegood question, i'll look19:53
bdrungsame for 2.3.0~beta5-119:54
pooliei'm looking at debian-changes-2.2.3-0\~bazaar1\~maverick119:57
pooliethe commentary on it says that this contains upstream changes introduced in that version19:58
cjwatsonthe autocommentary can be a bit ... misleading :-)19:58
poolieit looks like this is a change that should have been marked as a packaging patch, but this has got misclassified as coming in an upstream update19:59
cjwatsonit means changes to the upstream source (i.e. not debian/)19:59
cjwatsonit's just poor wording19:59
pooliei see19:59
pooliethe point of this patch is that bzr ships a copy of a small xml library20:00
pooliewhich i think we preferentially import20:00
poolieand debian/ubuntu policy is to not do that, but rather to depend on it from a package20:00
pooliewhich makes sense of course20:00
poolie(this makes me wonder if we should in fact just cut it out of upstream now)20:01
persiaThat makes perfect sense.  So, when applying that clearly distro-specific patch, how might one represent it to be obvious when encountering the source?20:01
pooliepersia, i think it would be better as an explicitly named patch, describing its purpose20:02
poolieand mentioned in the series file20:02
persiaThat's how I'd do it :)20:02
poolieactually we don't prefentially import it20:03
poolieas far as i can tell this patch has no effect, assuming that the external elementtree library is present, which it always should be20:03
pooliethis patch only seems to touch the fallback case?20:03
poolieah, there is a second part fixing what i guess is an api version skew with configobject20:04
poolieso, one other thing i would think of doing is splitting them into the conceptually separate patches20:04
persiaThat would be even better.20:05
poolieand perhaps pushing the second upstream20:05
* persia doesn't have any more questions20:08
* geser neither20:08
persiacjwatson, ?  bdrung ?20:09
bdrungcjwatson: do you have questions?20:09
bdrungpoolie: oh, i have one: you wrote "In a small fraction of cases the emotional tone is unattractive and offputting"20:11
poolieah, this is under 'things i'd like to improve in ubuntu'?20:12
bdrungpoolie: isn't the CoC enough? how can we do better?20:12
pooliei think the CoC is a great document20:13
pooliejust having the document isn't enough20:13
pooliethose of you i know from this meeting, i consider to be forces in the right direction on this20:14
poolieso i don't want to cast this as "you're getting it all wrong and I'll make the project nicer"20:14
=== bjf is now known as bjf[afk]
pooliebut, it's a thing i care about20:14
persiaWhat do you think you can do to help improve the tone?20:15
poolieone thing you can do is that if you see someone give a harsh reply on a bug or list, just also offer a not-harsh to-the-point reply too20:15
bdrungpoolie: we do that on irc channels20:16
pooliei think generally speaking just setting an example of how things ought to be is good20:16
pooliedo any of you think there's stuff i should do, or keep in mind, in this department?20:18
bdrungbut it's harder to do for bugs and lists20:18
poolieoh, one other thing is20:18
poolieit's remarkable how much more forgiving people will be of criticism if they get it promptly and if there is a way forward20:18
pooliethis is one reason i care a lot about patch piloting20:19
poolieif there's a substantive criticism, fair enough, but it feels much worse if the person gets it after a month of silence20:19
poolieor with no invitation to do something with it next20:19
pooliethis is kind of hard to fix because it's a matter of time, but you can try20:20
poolieto put it ahead of other work20:20
bdrungthe second thing you dislike is the profusion of stacked or alternative toolchains makes packaging very complicated. any ideas of making packaging easier?20:21
bdrung3.0 (quilt) helped with getting rid of the different patch systems.20:21
pooliei'd like to get source package branches to the point they are used for every package20:21
pooliewhich would avoid some profusion20:22
poolieusing quilt there is definitely a good setp20:22
pooliein other aspects of packaging, i do see it as a thing that erects a barrier to working in ubuntu, but20:23
bdrungwith source package branches for every package do you mean that the binary packages should be build from bzr branches instead of source tarballs?20:23
poolieright, so the source package would be generated as part of building20:23
poolierather than uploaded by the developer20:23
poolieobviously some work has to be done both to actually make this work at all, and to make it a compelling alternative20:24
pooliebut i would like to do it20:24
=== persia-uds is now known as _persia
bdrungmore ideas how to make packaging simpler?20:26
bdrungwould GUI tools help? should the amount of files in debian/ reduced?20:26
pooliei think the Quickly idea of seeing packaging as part of the development toolchain is promising20:26
pooliethat's only going to cover a fraction of apps that were written that way20:27
poolieseparately, i think it's very interesting how ppas and recipe builds have taken off20:27
pooliethat gives people a useful spot between upstream and ubunut20:27
pooliei think we can do a lot by building on that, to make it easier for people who care about a particular branch to get that packaged, perhaps cooperating with people who have more packaging expertise20:28
bdrungre recipe builds, i have a bunch of projects where the bzr import fails and therefore i am unable to create daily builds.20:28
poolie(and that connects too to making the main distribution more consistent with what's happening there)20:28
poolieok, i'd like to fix that20:29
pooliedo you have a bug, or can you tell me which branches they are?20:29
pooliebug #20:29
bdrungpoolie: vlc, xmms2, audacious - let me search for the bug number20:30
bdrungpoolie: bug #402814 is the biggest blocker20:30
ubottuLaunchpad bug 402814 in Launchpad itself "Importing revisions with submodules is not supported" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/40281420:30
bdrungpoolie: http://overbenny.wordpress.com/2010/08/16/daily-builds-rock-but-bzr-imports-suck/20:31
pooliei think the first of those bugs is fixed?20:32
* jelmer wakes up20:32
pooliehi jelmer20:32
pooliehttps://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/594294 is interesting; i haven't seen it before and it seems like it ought to be just a one line fix20:33
ubottuUbuntu bug 594294 in Launchpad itself "Launchpad disallows valid CVS module of '.' from being imported" [Medium,Triaged]20:33
pooliebut perhaps it's actually complicated20:33
pooliethe submodules thing is on our list, though not at the top at the moment20:33
pooliebdrung, how should we stay in touch about these things in the future?20:33
poolieperhaps it's enough to just have bug reports, but i would like to hear other feedback about which ones really matter most20:34
jelmerby weird coincidence, bug #519709 happens to be one of the bugs I'm working on at the moment20:34
ubottuLaunchpad bug 519709 in Launchpad itself "Import fails with infinite recursion through _reconstruct_manifest_and_flags_by_revid" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/51970920:34
bdrungpoolie: i am subscribed to the bugs that affect me and i am always available via irc20:34
poolieok, likewise20:35
bdrunglet's continue the discussion after the meeting. we should vote.20:35
poolieif you want to bump a bug up, just ask20:35
bdrungpoolie: in which channel?20:35
poolie#bzr, #launchpad, #ubuntu-devel20:36
poolie(hm, the latter of which i used to lurk in but this client doesn't seem to auto-join it; fixed)20:36
bdrung[VOTE] Martin Pool to gain per-package upload rights for bzr and related packages20:37
MootBotPlease vote on:  Martin Pool to gain per-package upload rights for bzr and related packages.20:37
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot20:37
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting20:37
MootBot+1 received from cjwatson. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 120:37
MootBot+1 received from geser. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 220:37
MootBot+1 received from bdrung. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 320:38
MootBot+1 received from persia. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 420:38
MootBotFinal result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 420:38
persiaJust to make sure, we're voting on the extended list in the application, right?20:38
bdrungprobably all bzr-* packages20:39
bdrungpoolie: congrats20:39
bdrung[TOPIC] Select a chair for the next meeting20:40
MootBotNew Topic:  Select a chair for the next meeting20:40
bdrungwho want to be chair?20:40
persiaI can chair.20:41
bdrungyou won ;)20:42
bdrung[ACTION] persia to be chair in the next meeting20:42
MootBotACTION received:  persia to be chair in the next meeting20:42
MootBotMeeting finished at 14:43.20:43
bdrunghow do i give poolie PPU rights?20:45
persiabdrung, Add him to ~ubuntu-dev and ask cjwatson nicely20:45
bdrungcjwatson: can you please give poolie (~mbp) PPU rights?20:47
pooliethanks, guys20:47
bdrungpoolie: btw, did you check the bzr upload with lintian?20:48
cjwatsonbdrung,poolie: done21:05
pooliebdrung, do i in general? yes; i'll make a point of doing that21:06
=== bjf[afk] is now known as bjf
=== Ursinha-sick is now known as Ursinha-afk
=== bjf is now known as bjf[afk]

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