[01:39] stupid people [01:39] stupid people [01:40] yes? [01:40] ;) [01:40] do you like it? [01:40] eternal: can we help you? [01:41] yes [01:41] i need an answer to something [01:41] oh? [01:56] that was a serious ban :p [01:56] going round a lot of ubuntu irc channels causing trouble [01:58] sunday's not a good day to choose to get a linode. review is slow [01:58] :) [01:58] * nucc1 sighs [01:58] or :( [01:58] yea, much more empathetic [01:59] or maybe the first one... either way works i guess [02:00] popey, should we have a layer of stone inside for strength? [02:00] or want to see pretty sandstone? [02:00] I'm easy :) [02:01] well, we doing anything inside? ;) [02:01] apart from burying our bodies [02:01] :D [02:01] need moar gold! [02:01] :)) [02:01] need some gold :/ [02:02] be nice to have a water lift from the bottom [02:02] of the world [02:02] to the base of the pyramid [02:02] inside it [02:02] you're putting popey in a pyramid? [02:02] haha [02:02] we not gonna put gold in and booby trap it? [02:02] ;) [02:03] suppose the water lift would be handy [02:04] are you guys building castles in the sky? [02:04] na [02:04] I wouldn't mind a tree house after this [02:05] what i'm reading almost sounds like a description of transformers 2 [02:06] * nucc1 pegs CPUfreq at 800mhz and goes to sleep === bag_ is now known as baconfish [04:56] hi [07:02] aloh [07:02] a [07:33] morning [08:20] hello all [08:22] morning [08:36] Morning all [08:43] morning. [08:44] \o [09:21] moin moin [09:39] Morning [10:17] Morning [10:18] [Stuart Langridge] Brave New Age - http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2011/01/31/brave-new-age [10:18] Hello, is there anyway to stop USC from being stuck on "cancelling" an install [10:18] ? [10:47] morning all [10:47] morning [10:48] \o [10:55] morning davmor2 [10:55] HazRPG: morning [10:55] MooDoo: morning dude [10:56] MooDoo: :) \o [10:56] * HazRPG glugs some coffee [11:04] morning [11:04] morning [11:05] popey: you on the Ayatana ML ? [11:06] i was, dunno if i still am [11:06] yeah, maybe [11:06] yes [11:06] popey: think the r sizing issue was broiught up on that [11:06] *brought. [11:06] I know it's not the first time I've read about it [11:06] which issue [11:06] there are many [11:06] your bug [11:07] no, there are many issues [11:07] ok [11:07] * davmor2 prods czajkowski good morning [11:13] popey: Re your bug. That's the way they decided to fix the stupid 1px-wide borders that were virtually ungrabable [11:13] put a transparent border "outside" the visible window [11:14] crack [11:14] in a pipe [11:15] popey: Not on a plane? [11:15] not in this channel :) [11:15] maybe in others [11:15] jacobw, andylockran, czajkowski, popey: Morning guys :) [11:18] TheOpenSourcerer: aye I knew I had read that somehwere.. [11:18] * czajkowski hugs davmor2 not long now my dear! [11:18] HazRPG: hi [11:19] 3 days [11:19] bonkers [11:19] sorry czajkowski [11:19] popey: I didnt say it made sense, I just knew I wasn't going totally bonkers and had read the reason for it [11:19] getting dangerously close to saying goodbye to ubuntu [11:19] :( [11:20] or not running Unity [11:20] I do wonder what goes on in the design teams minds at times when they make such calls [11:20] sorry design team folks in here [11:20] its not about unity [11:21] I quite like the idea behind unity [11:21] you've seen my osx desktop, I have the panel on the left just the way unity has it, I like global menu, I like the style [11:24] argh the song won't leave my head! [11:24] popey: you like global menu now? [11:24] i never said I didnt [11:25] what I dont like is that its broken with sloppy focus [11:25] "You've seen my osx desktop [...] I like global menu" [11:25] 11:24:49 < popey> i never said I didnt [11:25] ah [11:25] but you did :) [11:25] where? [11:25] well, it was related to sloppy focus, you're right [11:25] but still :) [11:26] I like global menu, I dont like the ubuntu bugs in their implementation of global menu [11:26] popey: sloppy focus = focus follows mouse? [11:26] clearer? [11:26] anyone know why ubuntu might "hang" or freeze after grub but before any kernel buffer messages? [11:26] yes daubers [11:26] daubers: yes [11:26] popey: \o/ [11:26] Right [11:26] HazRPG: even in rescue mode? [11:26] is that "safe mode" type thing? [11:26] if so, then yeah [11:28] daubers: can you pm your address again, never sent those stickers. [11:28] * MartijnVdS re-tried Unity again yesterday [11:28] but I can't get used to it [11:29] the "dock" thingy is in the way, OR hidden.. I haven't found a way to get it back when it's hidden (except moving windows out of the way) [11:29] I tried it yesterday... didn't like it... just seems wrong [11:29] the menus were all on top of each other [11:30] window snapping (to each other) is broken [11:30] MartijnVdS: My problem with unity is the whole menu being moving from the top of any given window, to the top panel/bar/thing... [11:30] HazRPG: the global menu, yes, that annoys me as well [11:31] just doesn't seem right, considering I usually work with 2 screens, and several windows piled next to each other, would slowly get incredibly confusing [11:31] I mean, for example now I have 5 windows tiled next to each other [11:32] HazRPG: also: is it one app with 5 windows or 5 instances of one app? [11:32] what is more than one instance of an app is running [11:32] how do you tell which menu you're seeing? [11:32] a media player in minimal form as a square, contact list, this chat window, a browser in full screen [11:32] HazRPG: I have 10 terminal windows :) [11:32] the full screen browser gets alt+tabbed a lot to other programs in full screen on that monitor [11:33] HazRPG: some with --disable-factory so a crash in gnome-terminal doesn't take everything down [11:33] MartijnVdS: lol how come? [11:33] HazRPG: because I program Perl for a living, and have to navigate around source trees a lot :) [11:33] that would make sense xD [11:33] popey: Out of interest (since I played with FFM and just wanted to hit it with a stick) how does unity break FFM? [11:34] global menu [11:34] I've just started freelancing web development (previously worked in an office - but resources were terrible :/) [11:34] how do you get to the menu if there is another window between you and the top panel? [11:34] Ahhhh [11:34] mpt suggested I just read te link from my bug report [11:34] So the global menu only focuses on the top panel? [11:34] but I dont understand it [11:34] and I feel I will look stupid if I ask more questions [11:35] so I am left here with broken functionality and no way to fix it [11:35] :( <- understatement [11:35] one thing I'm interested about is... ubuntu is meant to be "human" or "user-friendly" and "community driven"... yet they're still continuing Unity, when a major of people I've spoken to (and articles I've read) don't seem to accept some of things Unity is bringing to the table [11:35] http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Stbr207TOYrswyt6fPNRfQ?feat=directlink - a tux by my friend Leo [11:35] popey, whats the bug? [11:35] HazRPG: define major [11:35] or should that be 'Tux'? [11:36] majority* [11:36] bug 674138 [11:36] Launchpad bug 674138 in Unity ""Global" appmenu breaks sloppy focus" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/674138 [11:36] HazRPG: define majority [11:36] HazRPG: who are these people, how have you polled them, have they used it? [11:36] HazRPG: Just because lots of people are noisy doesn't make them the majority.... [11:36] HazRPG: Also.. it's not finished yet? [11:36] I find it's just the typical loud mouthed minoritis like fab [11:37] As long as the "Classic" option remains available, I'll be happy [11:38] friends, other coders I work with, etc... along with many websites, youtube videos, etc [11:38] is read the link the new way to say to someone to rtfm it. most annoying [11:38] HazRPG: how many of them have actually used unity on natty? [11:38] :( [11:39] popey: *shrug* I know I have, and a few of my friends - but I know a lot of people who have used unity that was shipped with 10.10 for netbooks and quickly switched to the regular edition [11:39] Urgh, that paragraph from MPT about FFM isn't particularly readable [11:39] HazRPG: New Unity is quite different [11:39] HazRPG: 10.10 unity is very very very different [11:39] daubers: _exactly_ [11:40] daubers: though still just as buggy [11:40] popey: File a bug on the wiki page :) [11:40] oh don't get me wrong, I can see the differences [11:40] last time I tweeted about it still being broken mpt suggested I go and read my own bug report [11:40] MartijnVdS: It's not finished yet! [11:40] I have read it 3 times and still dont get it [11:40] how does one suggest opinions out to the ubuntu coders out of interest? [11:40] Has the global menu bar got a plugin system of some kind? [11:41] popey, it basically means that focus follows mouse isn't taken in to account when choosing which window has control of the global menubar, so if you mouse over something it can become the "active window" but the menu bar will still be the menu of the old window, until you click or tab to it or something [11:41] seems like a broken design to me [11:41] because I've tried gnome-shell and unity now, and they both seem similar [11:41] to say the least [11:44] thats not what happens [11:44] from gnome-shell/unity I really love the search feature for the menu - that is just pure genius, it means I don't need Gnome DO or similar anymore. Fantastic idea, I love it in Windows 7 too. [11:44] also, the global menu has a delay [11:45] I often am in firefox and note some seconds after I switch tab, or open a mail, that the global menu changes out of the corner of my eye [11:45] popey: it has to be pushed over dbus, that takes time! [11:45] but the global menu and the dock are just Mac clones in my opinion [11:46] yeah I saw my brother's mac yesterday, he had the dock on the left.. it's identical [11:46] and well, if I'm not mistaken exist as separate apps if you want them [11:46] those things are just not innovative in the true meaning of it [11:46] not much in computing is innovative [11:47] sure, gnome-shell and unity are probably trying to refine it [11:47] popey: you saying Compiz wasn't? [11:47] * popey checks his logs [11:47] I dont think i did say that did I [11:48] much of computing today is evolution, not revolution [11:48] I guess [11:48] some certainly is very innovative [11:48] Apple (and to some degree Google, but much less so) deserve some credit for invigorating the touch interface. [11:49] personally, if they're doing it right, gnome-shell and unity should be modular, and be able to remove or disable parts you don't need - otherwise your just throwing your own opinions down to everyone [11:49] And Ubuntu innovated by having a graphical installer on the Live environment [11:49] but live CDs had been around some time, and were mostly pioneered (and became popular) by Knoppix [11:50] (although knoppix had an installer on the live cd, it was a manky script) [11:50] I always thought it was Knoppix that made LiveCD infamous not ubuntu [11:50] yes, it did, thats what I just said :) [11:50] :p [11:50] I specifically highlighted the "installation" feature of the Live CD which Ubuntu made popular [11:51] Launchpad and PPAs were quite an innovation too [11:51] yeah, I was just checking lol, because most (even linus) seem to think it was ubuntu :/ [11:51] popey: OOI how does osx deal with FFM? [11:51] OSX has no ffm [11:51] AIUI [11:51] HazRPG: are you referring to his interview at OMG Ubuntu? [11:52] if so, he also specifically highlighted the installer, not live CDs in general [11:52] popey: yeah, I was reading that and thought "that can't be right somehow" [11:52] Linus agrees with me ;) [11:52] popey: oh I don't doubt that ^^, [11:52] hehe [11:53] I recall him saying it in the interview [11:53] "That popey dude, he's always right" [11:53] yeah, I think they edited that out [11:53] but the way the editor/interviewer portrayed it just seemed off [11:54] popey, i know thats not what happens - i don't see the dx team implementing support for that honestly, you don't get information for how a window was focused to make that kind of decision [11:54] daubers: what's FFM? [11:54] HazRPG: focus follows mouse [11:55] ah [11:55] gord: How easy is it to find out if FFM is on? [11:55] daubers: it's one gconf key [11:55] Is there a dbus thing for it? [11:55] Hmm.... [11:55] daubers, no idea, i expect there is a gsettings key for it that you can watch [11:55] * daubers might break his global menu in a horrific manner this evening [11:55] popey: you going to try Kubuntu instead? [11:55] honestly, i think disabling global menu if ffm is on is a much better solution [11:55] anyone know if unity will be able to disable/enable some features - or if its just WYSIWYG sorta deal? [11:56] HazRPG: You can kill the global menu [11:56] hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahaahahahaha [11:56] no [11:56] *sigh* :( [11:56] good thing I don't fear tampering then :/ [11:56] (my laugh was @daubers) [11:57] popey: Is that a maybe? Xubuntu perhaps or lubuntu [11:57] maybe I should just install OSX on my desktop :) [11:57] popey: Killing the global menu is easy :) I did it last night by accident [11:57] that was my route. OSX on anything that has a monitor, ubuntu on anything that doesn't. no regrets. [11:59] popey: see, the reason I use any Linux distro is because its *not* OSX or Windows [11:59] Of course installing OSX on non-apple hardware is in-breach of their non-free licensing AFAICT. [11:59] There are a few things that annoy me about OSX, but my major quibble at the moment is how pigging hard it is to develop in [11:59] and actually *works* (I use loosely, because with anything you'll have faults somewhere) [11:59] or I could just buy a hulking great mac [11:59] and donate my desktop to charity [12:00] (to make me feel better) :) [12:00] a "feelgood mac" [12:00] daubers, setting UBUNTU_MENUPROXY=0 is a much saner way of disabling global menu :) [12:00] hehe [12:00] also! [12:00] not having any way to edit launchers is annoying [12:00] edit? [12:00] add command line parameters [12:00] like --debug=1 [12:01] or --profilemanager [12:01] I filed a bug and mark basically said "no" [12:02] you can add extra command line parameters to the desktop file and they'll show up in the right click menu - but honestly to do that would break matching (this gedit window, is it from the gedit launcher or the gedit --foobar launcher? =\) [12:02] indeed [12:02] so it's a regression [12:03] I can have two icons on the panel, "Launch Firefox" "Launch Firefox in debug mode" [12:03] easy to see which is which by hovering over or placing where I want them [12:03] cant do that in unity [12:03] of course some would argue that putting command line options on programs is clearly an outdated way to configure applications [12:03] or giving the debug one a fun icon, which is usually done in launcher edit [12:04] i disagree, its not a regression, its a different way of handling your windows. not by window but by application [12:04] and I should file bugs against the upstream projects to get them to convert all command line parameters to preferences dialogs [12:04] like i said, you can edit the desktop file like http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/05/how-to-add-thunderbird-to-the-ubuntu-messaging-menu/ and get the extra options in a right click menu [12:04] semantics gord [12:04] yes, editing desktop files [12:04] lovely [12:04] [12:05] also note that guide is broken [12:05] it says use ALT+F2 [12:05] plus it breaks when that app updates its .desktop file [12:10] popey: You sound like you need some cake [12:10] and a mug of tea [12:10] daubers: there's never a time somebody doesn't need cake and tea, let's be honest [12:13] * TheOpenSourcerer is in agreement with popey [12:13] I'm trying to figure out how to use 'case of the mondays' in a sentence without sounding even more annoying & irrelevant than normal === denny- is now known as denny [12:25] I think you just did, shauno... [12:25] * HazRPG wants to win the lottery [12:36] I guess I'm gonna luck out and not find out what all the fuss is about until the next LTS. Hopefully the dust will have settled a bit by then [12:39] HazRPG: get in the queue [12:41] MooDoo: Indeed. [12:41] shauno: agreed. [13:11] HazRPG: remember: it's just as likely to be 12345678 as it is to be your ticket number :) [13:12] MartijnVdS: yeah I know ;) [13:12] I don't do the lottery often [13:12] but when I do, I always hope I'm going to be one of those you hear about that barely ever does the lottery, and that one ticket they do put on becomes the winner :P [13:13] but obviously odds are odds [13:13] HazRPG: I know people who call it "idiot tax" ;) [13:13] MartijnVdS: it might as well be haha [13:14] the national lottery here in the UK sometimes sponsors the renovation of parks, buildings, etc... so it might as well be an "idiots tax" [13:30] When installing nagios, should I install from source (3.2.3) or from the repos (3.2.0)? In the past I've noticed that sometime it takes a long time to update the nagios package so am unsure which to go for [13:30] Twinkletoes: do you need features that are in 3.2.3 that are not in 3.2.0? [13:30] Twinkletoes: security fixes are always backporte [13:30] d [13:30] packages = easier [13:49] wow, how did I not know about brainstorm.ubuntu.com sooner! [13:49] for those interested, I've posted a comment at the end of this one: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/26902/ [13:57] that kinda thing irks me. I do use app-based filtering a lot. having half a thread telling me why I don't want it isn't very useful [13:58] shauno: yeah, but the default could be to work as normal [13:58] and if needed to be turned off altogether [13:59] sure, that's a sensible default [14:00] HazRPG: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/4/ [14:00] :) [14:01] popey: are you saying this is already implemented? [14:02] nope [14:02] just pointing out some of us knew about brainstorm :) [14:02] (note the idea submitter) :) [14:03] and idea number [14:03] Alan Pope? [14:03] <- [14:03] name rings a bell [14:03] ^^< [14:03] :) [14:03] ^^,* [14:04] I wasn't doubting you guys didn't know :P, I just pointed out that I'd only just found out about it ^^, [14:04] and was just pointing out the one I posted :P [14:04] It's the cloud expo thing this week isn't it [14:04] yes [14:04] just teasin HazRPG :) [14:04] 2-3rd feb [14:05] popey: :P [14:05] ahh, you guys love me really ^^, [14:05] even if I am annoying at times [14:05] might have to join in on some minecraft later tonight with you guys :P [14:06] you're not annoying at all [14:06] really? [14:06] heh, my friends find my opinionated-self to be annoying [14:06] they always think I'm trying to force it on them, when really I just like discussions to see others opinions [14:08] meh [14:08] we can all be like that sometimes [14:08] daubers: I'm guessing you meant this: http://www.cloudexpoeurope.com/ [14:09] good poing [14:09] t [14:09] daubers: Wed & Thurs are the days, if your going [14:09] Daviey: CDs? [14:10] AlanBell: Are those the CD's from Canonical? [14:10] they should be [14:10] HazRPG: Yep, looking like I'll be there wednesday.... not confirmed on that yet. Waiting for a customer to confirm some dates before I can confirm them [14:11] daubers: I'm tempted to go, but not sure if its worth me going at all. [14:11] Since it sounds like more a corporate gig, then a "enthusiast" gig [14:12] AlanBell: I hope everyone's remembered to get their T-shirts :P [14:14] HazRPG: I'm actually going for work, so it's an all expenses paid gig for me anyway [14:15] daubers: ha, nice :). [14:15] HazRPG: it is for enthusiatic corporates :) [14:15] AlanBell: You knew what I meant ;) [14:16] yeah, it is a business focussed thing, which is totally one place that Ubuntu needs to be [14:16] AlanBell: This is very true. [14:16] as well as a consumer thing [14:16] and geek thing [14:17] \o I'm a geek [14:17] happened in real life: How do you know that a car has really been designed by French? [14:17] and a consumer, and I am guessing you work too [14:18] They've included and integrated "Perfume Dispenser" on the dash. [14:18] s/and/an/ [14:18] Myrtti: I was going to guess a baguette holder [14:18] The new VW Beetle has a vase. [14:18] I always wondered why the new bugs had sunflowers in the dash, but I couldn't pin that on the french [14:19] dwatkins: yeah, but that's because it's a hippy car [14:19] Indeed, Myrtti :) [14:19] :-> [14:19] AlanBell: Errr... that's a grey area. Consumer, yes. Working, sort of... if you call Freelancing work. This is my first Freelance project that I'm working on at the moment. Don't really have more projects lined up yet... [14:20] Freelancing on Ubuntu? [14:21] AlanBell: Not quite, I use ubuntu to do my projects... [14:21] AlanBell: I'm a web developer at heart. Been doing it since I was 13. Even worked for a year between college/uni for a design company doing web development. I'm by no means good at design though. [14:22] AlanBell: This is my portfolio website I've been working on in my spare time for the past 2 years: http://www.hazrpg.co.uk/ [14:23] Even has some of the websites I've done in the gallery - but the designs aren't mine, so I can't take credit for that. Stuff I've helped designed are on http://www.softboxproductions.co.uk/ [14:24] when i used to freelance, i would use ubuntu, use gtk/python to build apps, django for web work, was fun [14:24] I use aptana for my web work [14:25] its been about two years since i freelanced, not sure what the cool kids are using for web stuff anymore [14:26] Personally, any editor does the job for me - been coding that long for the web that I can pretty much visualise it in my head by looking at the code (sounds so bad when I type it out like that) [14:27] oh, i was talking about the framework [14:27] oh, heh [14:27] Smarty works great for templates... personal preference though. [14:27] for web stuff it doesn't matter, i'm convinced that 99% of php "coders" use notepad.exe [14:28] gord: *put head down in shame* [14:29] I just use vim for most things. textmate if it's going to be long/involved/messy/involve too many files, but mostly just vim [14:29] gord: I find myself switching between gedit, SciTE (scitella?), aptana and dreamweaver for my php stuff [14:30] I've heard good things about Textpattern as a content management system, I guess that's what the cool kids are using, gord. [14:30] heh, I won't share my thoughts on dreamweaver ;) [14:30] however I've managed to stop myself from using Dreamweaver altogether - mainly cos it was a uni version I use to use and I don't plan on playing ridiculous amounts for a licence for it. [14:32] shauno, gord: Cappuccino is another one that seems to pop up from time to time these days too. [14:32] There's always BlueFish, Komposer or whatever it's been renamed to [14:32] netbeans user here [14:32] diplo: I use that for Java [14:32] We use Codeigniter [14:33] It's good for PHP/html etc as well [14:33] i also don't really care about what the cool kids are using either ;) web development became boring after django fixed it all and made server stuff really easy ;) [14:33] diplo: interesting [14:33] SVN client in plugins [14:33] client side javascript is getting interesting though [14:33] Cross platform as well [14:33] webgl could be very very interesting [14:33]