[15:35] Good morning [15:35] mr_pouit: thanks for the updates to 4.8.1 [15:37] morning charlie-tca and congrats on xubuntu lead [15:38] Thank you [15:39] it was a formality to get finalized. Been here for while already [15:40] charlie-tca: :) [18:28] ochosi: don't suppose gmusicbrowser can do the ubuntuone music store thing? [18:28] hm, no not currently [18:29] i could start to work on a plugin for that though [18:29] exaile can't either [18:29] but i don't think exaile cna [18:29] mhm [18:29] gotta hope, though, right? [18:29] I think we can switch, if mr_pouit is in agreement [18:30] it plays music, right? [18:30] hehe, yeah, it plays music [18:30] btw, knome and me started to work on an app comparison [18:30] of course, you do know the first and only thing I ever got to play my cd's was exaile, right? [18:30] I am all thumbs when it comes to that stuff [18:34] alpha1 desktop installation fails [18:34] "The following packages are in a broken state: libc6-dev, libc6" [18:35] then "Installer crashed" [18:35] hm, my natty install failed to boot today [18:35] i assume some nvidia proprietary driver prob [18:36] i have to say those are the days when i really really hate plymouth: when the xserver hangs at boottime i can't get to a tty [18:36] mh [18:38] try the daily instead of the alpha1, there are many changes [18:38] there is no daily builds apart from powerpc [18:38] My natty installed is working fine. [18:39] are there builds from yesterday? [18:39] and a few days ago, there was only the alternate daily build for i386/a64 [18:39] Most of the alpha1 issues have been fixed [18:39] no, there is no 'desktop' build [18:39] for xubuntu natty, at all [18:40] use these then - http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily-live/20110130/ [18:41] okay... [18:41] let's try one of those. [18:41] those are yesterday's natty xubuntu desktop builds [18:46] okay. [18:46] hm, not sure whether what i just started to write up matches what you'd expect in the design-category [18:47] hmm [18:47] like? [18:47] it's already there ;) [18:48] err [18:48] where [18:48] "Our target should be to have a player that is easy to use and enables the user to easily browse/manage his/her collection. As collections tend to become bigger and bigger with hdd-space becoming cheaper the player should be able to handle large libraries with grace and should help the user to organize it. " [18:49] (the wiki-page) [18:50] yeah [18:50] just wanted to be sure before i continue ;) [18:55] darn, i really have to save the wiki-page every few lines, it gets back at me with internal server errors almost always... :( [18:55] yup [18:55] i noticed that [18:55] probably a wiki error [18:55] but it does save the page [18:56] even with the error [18:56] myeah [18:56] I just hit reload when it does that, it comes back that you already saved the page [18:57] knome: you know we start alpha2 testing as soon as we get the new images, right? [18:57] charlie-tca, yeah [18:58] (i just realized when writing this now how superior gmb's search and filter system is) [19:01] knome: i wrote up a few things i consider important in the design section now, i think too much text isn't a good idea. maybe we should now compare the players according to that [19:02] yup [19:02] probably [19:02] just convert that to another table or so [19:02] but read up on it first ;) [19:02] just a sec [19:02] yeah [19:02] table sounds good [19:03] maybe a table and screenshots that illustrate our points [19:03] you still busy installing natty? ;p [19:03] do we expect streaming from the internet before april? [19:07] hm, not sure [19:08] It would be good to get some estimate of when it is expected, if possible. That seems to be a point for a lot of users. [19:08] busy with scheduling a meeting with a friend :| [19:08] We can put it in the release notes, if we switch players [19:08] mhm, yeah [19:08] charlie-tca: and the artwork-stuff should also go in there [19:09] what artwork stuff? [19:09] greybird is in now, isn't it? [19:09] ochosi: the issue the other day with thunar spawning is related to the usb drives. I haven't tried it with the bugfixes yet [19:10] well, the release notes should contain that we have: a new gtk-theme, an updated icon theme, a draft of a grub theme, new default panel layout, new default font (Droid) etc etc ;) [19:11] Oh, yeah. That will get in. I was thinking final release on the gmusicbrowser for streaming thing [19:11] oh sure [19:11] yeah, we should put that there too :) [19:12] charlie-tca: but poke me about the alpha2 release notes if you need a list for the artwork-changes [19:12] yeah, but I won't put that in until the final release [19:12] Great! I can always extra eyes on what I write [19:12] It never says quite what I am thinking it should... [19:14] k, let's try to throw in more info this time ;) [19:17] knome: I did not run those images. Is it working? [19:25] charlie-tca, don't know yet. busy doing other things. will get back to you today [19:25] hm, i have to say i really don't know enough about exaile to fill out all the tables now [19:25] Okay, thanks. I do know they made a lot of changes in Ubuntu over the weekend, and that might be holding the images up [19:25] if any of you care to help out feel free [19:25] (design section: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Natty/DefaultMediaPlayer ) [19:26] I didn't anything for 'plays my music, ogg, mp3, or cd' in there. [19:26] ;-) [19:26] right :) [19:31] so much for me trying to fill in the blanks ;-) [19:38] charlie-tca: btw, shoutcast browsing doesn't work *at* *all* in exaile for me [19:39] I don't know what that is, even [19:39] shoutcast is webradio [19:39] but I did install gmusicbrowser in natty to try it out [19:39] from our ppa? [19:39] no, just the repository [19:39] oh... [19:39] that's not good :) [19:39] it won't play cd's? [19:39] the stable release is really really old [19:40] try this instead: https://launchpad.net/~shimmerproject/+archive/ppa [19:40] no, but we have parole for that [19:40] I thought parole was for movies? [19:40] nope [19:41] plays any kind of media [19:41] * charlie-tca feels really dumb now [19:41] i'd even argue that parole's interface is much nicer for playing cds than exaile/gmusicbrowser could be [19:41] oh, I think I said I don't know so much about these things... :-) [19:41] it's a different purpose somehow [19:41] exaile plays them, though [19:41] np ;) [19:41] yeah i know it does [19:42] I don't know how to make parole do that [19:42] i still don't think it's essential since we have parole [19:42] * charlie-tca has visions of ochosi pulling out his hair now [19:42] hehe [19:43] no, i wouldn't do that, i *love* my hair ;) [19:43] step 1: insert audio-cd into drive [19:43] step 2: open parole [19:43] step 3: go to media > cdrom > audio cd [19:43] step 4: click that menu-item very hard [19:44] step 5: nothing more to do, parole already plays your cd [19:44] it's the procedure as in totem, vlc and the like [19:44] and close exaile... [19:45] yeah, exaile even has a bug with the cd-plugin that won't let you eject your cds anymore [19:45] huh, it worked [19:46] can't make any of those work, though [19:46] any of "those"? [19:46] totem, vlc, etc [19:46] right [19:46] hm, not sure about totem, but parole uses gstreamer as its backend (just like exaile) [19:46] I got vlc to play the dvd movies, somehow [19:47] in gmusicbrowser you can even select your favorite backend, but i guess we'll use gstreamer by default, since it's already installed for parole [19:47] etoomuchbacklog [19:48] hey mr_pouit ;) [19:48] yeah, we been busy, huh? [19:48] mr_pouit: have you used exaile much | do you know the programme? [19:51] yeah, a lot, I opened it a least twice when testing the new panel layout in virtualbox ;D [19:51] so, no :P [19:51] haha [19:51] right [19:51] see, I know more than that! I got it to play cd's :-) [19:51] so i guess i'll have to start testing it myself now :| [19:52] gee, now I feel like an almost expert on it ;-) [19:52] * charlie-tca confesses, it was SiDi that taught him how to play them [19:53] * ochosi taught charlie-tca today how to play audio-cds with parole [19:53] heh, that's right [19:53] but it don't show the song names... [19:57] mmh, do you really want gmb for the alpha 2? [19:57] who, me? It's up to you, really [19:58] I'd rather push it after alpha 2 [19:58] because we'll have to upload the new release first (as ochosi says the current one in natty sucks :p) [19:59] and it seems a bit short to me until thursday :P [19:59] yes, we have to use the one from the shimmer-ppa, otherwise it's not a very good decision [20:02] (also, exaile is the only thing pushing hal in the default install) [20:03] mr_pouit: so shall i continue to write that app-comparison or shall we close the subject now ;) [20:03] charlie-tca, did you think of revamping the strategy document? [20:03] that works for me [20:03] mr_pouit: ^^ [20:04] knome: yes, I have thought about it, it is one of my goals to add how to select the lead [20:04] Other than that, when I asked for inputs, I got none [20:04] charlie-tca, do you think there could be discussion on some of the other things as well [20:04] charlie-tca, can't remember that, i've probably been quite busy back then [20:05] ochosi: charlie-tca: well, if everyone is for gmb, I guess it's settled, and you don't have to write more :p [20:05] mr_pouit: let's wait though, as you said [20:05] alpha2 is got enough for now [20:06] ochosi: we can close the comparison as complete enough. [20:06] charlie-tca, first of all, i suppose we do have to rethink the goals of the xubuntu project [20:06] knome: I will go further into it after the next two weeks [20:06] brb [20:06] charlie-tca, okay. will you still accept input then? [20:07] I don't the goals are going to change much [20:07] but, yes, I will open it for discussion then [20:07] charlie-tca, imo we can't both try to be as accessible as possible as well as trying to be low-mem system [20:07] charlie-tca, which is what the current document pretty much states [20:08] charlie-tca, that's one thing that just has to change in order to make the document helpful for USERS and for developers thinking about users [20:09] charlie-tca, and as you know, i was and i still am against the PL having the veto vote. that's a thing i think would make the document helpful for DEVELOPERS and for developers interacting [20:11] charlie-tca, s/veto vote/casting vote/, whatever [20:19] k, i'm back [20:20] mr_pouit, charlie-tca: mkay, thanks for saving me the work :) [20:21] charlie-tca: about the SD, i think it's important that all team members are equal and that there is no veto. i think it's very important for a team to be able to reach a consensus or to make compromises, otherwise it doesn't function well [20:22] It is also very important to never allow the team to lock into a debate without end [20:22] i don't think having a leader-veto is a good way to resolve "a debate without end" [20:22] the SD is actually contrary to itself [20:22] i think a vote is lote better [20:22] on the PL section, it says: [20:22] It is understood that the divisive use of the project leads authority could weaken the project. For that reason the authority is used carefully, ... [20:23] of course, if you have a bad leader who abuses his powers and does want to vote against others, he won't use the authority carefully [20:24] and he won't be there long, since the community council can intervene [20:24] and with that, when this opened for discussion , I will be looking forward to your inputs [20:25] installed gmusicbrowser from shimmer ppa [20:25] it takes time for the CC to intervene. seriously, it can start with small things that do not matter much but end messy. and lots of small things can make the dev team break [20:25] charlie-tca, thanks for considering anyway [20:26] you are welcome, I do try to keep an open mind. I am not a dictator, that is taken already. [20:27] charlie-tca, i definitely think that the PL should have a good view on what's happening on the project and where it should aim towards, but i don't think it means that the PL should have any kind of casting vote and definitely not a veto vote to do a decision against all of the others developers [20:27] charlie-tca, i agree, you're not a dictator. but when people do agree about things they really care about and have been cherishing.. it can get messy even if one wasn't a dictator ;) [20:28] hm, the current team situation (even if there hardly is an official team) is quite good [20:29] hm, okay, I got this thing in here, and I got a bunch of songs in it from my other drive, now how do I make it play? [20:29] press the play button? :D [20:29] or double-click a song? [20:29] what does it look like? [20:29] arrow right [20:29] it's on the left top corner [20:29] next to "prev" and "next" buttons [20:29] lol, I ain't really too good at this, remember? ;-) [20:30] the triagle on it's side, right>? [20:30] yep [20:30] well you can't break your system by pressing a button in gmb... ;] [20:30] huh, it plays [20:31] hehe [20:33] well, that's enough music for now, I guess. [20:33] okay, I tested it [20:33] :) [20:34] It is quite different from what is in the repository, you are right [20:34] charlie-tca: i will spend the energy i saved on not continuing the app-comparison on improving the shimmer-gmb project page [20:34] so that people will get a better impression of it [20:35] charlie-tca: well, i modified it, i should know it's different :D [20:35] good idea [20:35] We will announce it for alpha3, down the road... [20:35] well, except I announce things on identi.ca as we put them out for the public [20:36] I still need someone to blog about us weekly! [20:36] yeah, that would be important [20:36] having the website support blogs would be great [20:37] i mean: syndicating blogs like a planet [20:37] we don't have anyone that blogs regularly enough to keep a website blog going. the planet already syndicates them, but if no one does the writing, ... [20:38] true [20:39] * micahg wants to start a blog [20:39] charlie-tca: BTW, Thunderbird locales 3.1.7 in natty :) [20:40] The idea of saying we have it is great! I just don't think it is worth it if no one is writing anything [20:40] ochosi: after alpha 2, if gmb in natty doesn't look as good as on your screenshots, I'll sue you :P [20:40] mr_pouit: harhar [20:41] mr_pouit: as long as you use the package from our repo everything will be dandy [20:41] mr_pouit: it plays, at least [20:41] charlie-tca: lol [20:41] ochosi: write that on my todo list, and it'll be fine ;> [20:41] mr_pouit: hehe, i love *your* todo-list [20:43] hm, no wonder hibernate is giving so many bugs now... "It was removed from the dernel completely... " [20:44] woot? [20:47] heh [20:48] that's what I thought. I think it is a discussion on natty [20:58] mr_pouit: hm, i was wondering whether we can un-brand some of our default apps and make them use generic app icons instead? [20:59] i know that certain apps have strong branding (ff, tb) [21:00] but using a simple "email" icon in the launcher-panel would make a lot more sense to me [21:00] how should a new user know what that birdy means? [21:00] a better example is maybe ristretto [21:00] how should a new user know what that coffee-mug or the name means? [21:07] I'm not even sure that's allowed for tb and fx ;> [21:08] charlie-tca, i do write pretty constantly :P [21:09] mr_pouit: well, we'd have to use icedove ;) [21:10] but anyway, for stuff like ristretto, gmusicbrowser etc it would be cool imo [21:10] i agree with general application/concept icons [21:10] mail for mail [21:10] the easy solution is with the icon theme [21:11] mr_pouit, is it ok to use a mail icon for TB? [21:11] i mean, isn't that the point of "different" applications [21:11] mr_pouit: yeah probably [21:11] for tb and fx, you better ask micahg ;P [21:12] or is it just that some people are so afraid of seeing any branding anywhere? [21:12] ochosi: it's the simplest one, so we don't touch the desktop files :) [21:12] micahg, if you want to start a blog, why don [21:12] ...'t you do that? [21:12] ochosi: why would you want to unbrand some of the most popular open source apps? [21:13] micahg, if you have hosting, it's as simple as setting up WP and start writing; if not, then just register an account at wordpress.com [21:13] (there was probably some subjectivity added in the previous message) [21:14] knome: I will, I'm limited on time ATM, but that will change shortly [21:14] good :) [21:14] micahg: i know the thought hurts but i don't care what the app-icon of the app that manages my mail looks like [21:14] micahg: but i know that ff and tb are a sensitive topic [21:14] micahg: why not start with the other apps? :) [21:14] micahg, "mail" is still a better thought for mail than "thunderbird" [21:14] ochosi: yes, but it make Xubuntu less relavent if it has foo mail vs Thunderbird [21:14] micahg, a lot of people who i know and use TB, for example, don't know it's called "thunderbird" [21:15] micahg, why is it less relevant while the app can still say thunderbird in it's titlebar, and the icon hover can say "Mail
Mozilla Thunderbird"? [21:15] micahg: how is thunderbird coupled with xubuntu being "relevant"? [21:16] knome: it makes it less familiar, when you list Thunderbird in the default apps, right away you have an edge over Ubuntu w/Evo as teh default [21:16] * micahg will have to continue this later [21:16] micahg: np, i'm always willing to discuss this [21:17] i can see how it can affect some people who are 'used' to the TB/FF branding, but on the other hand, it's like streching your hand out to catch those who are still not yet 'in' [21:18] yeah [21:18] accessibility also means things like being easy for people who have never used a computer [21:19] i just don't really get why my image-viewer's icon should be a coffee-mug [21:19] relaxation [21:19] ? [21:20] coffee goes with "sit back, relax, enjoy the coffee and images [21:21] hmm, i still think i can make an image-viewer icon that is more descriptive than a mug of coffee [21:21] image-viewer for me is relaxation [21:21] and: i don't assiociate drinking ristretto with sitting down ;) [21:21] for me it's "start looking at the pictures and select the best for your clients website" [21:22] In America it is coffee, in UK it is tea, etc [21:22] ristretto != coffee [21:23] ;) [21:23] it isn't so much thinking of an image viewer as it is relaxation at that time [21:23] often, people have a better memory for the icons than the app names [21:23] ok, well given you have that association, say you want to view your images, would you really click a coffee-mug first? [21:24] true. I am an exception, since I don't see the icons [21:24] ochosi: as much as I would want to click on something called "ristretto" to see them, yes [21:25] hm, no renaming the apps is really not my point, they can keep their names, but the icons could be more generic [21:26] On the other hand, it drives me nuts to click on "movie player" when it crashes. I don't really know what crashed by the name [21:26] like the icons, the desktop icon titles probably should be more relevant [21:26] charlie-tca, what about "App name (App usage)" or "App usage (App name)" [21:26] brb [21:27] I think it would be great to have "what it is - app name" [21:27] like "movie player - totem" [21:27] Music player - exaile [21:28] s/exaile/gmusicbrowser ;) [21:28] because the names certainly do nothing to inspire a reason to open the app [21:28] yep [21:29] who in their right mind would open "parole" to see a movie instead of looking for jails/prisons/convicts, in the USA, at least. [21:29] hehe [21:30] well, even the icon for parole could be a little less fugly [21:30] even "aumix" does not make me want to see what it is... :-) [21:31] * charlie-tca is using icons more in natty, since he has a launcher panel now [21:31] yeah, don't really know why we have aumix installed... mr_pouit ^ [21:32] charlie-tca: good to hear. i also use the launcher panel a lot when i'm in natty [21:32] charlie-tca: btw, are you on an up-to-date natty? [21:32] it kind of makes me think of an equalizer... Awe, mix it [21:46] it's a recommends of xfce4-settings iirc [21:47] don't think it's used anywhere [21:47] it should be hidden in xubuntu anyway, but there's a bug in garcon, which prevents that [21:47] yeah, I think it goes with the mixer [21:47] ochosi: yes, I run an up-to-date natty [21:48] mr_pouit: wasn't aumix used for default volume keyboard shortcuts in xfce4.6? [21:48] yes, sort of [21:48] charlie-tca: would you mind posting a screener, just curious to see what it looks like on other peoples screens and whether there's anything i want/have to fix visually [21:48] mr_pouit: btw, getting rid of hal sounds *really* good to my ears [21:49] sure, I can do that [21:52] I would be happy with apps that upstream supports. [21:53] thunderbird, firefox or midori, etc [21:53] ah, I found http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/01/install-xfce-4-8-in-ubuntu-10-10-ppa/ by accident [21:53] it's probably not worth backporting then [21:54] There seems to be two different ppa's now. One for lucid and one for maverick [21:54] mr_pouit: i read that in lucid only 32bit is supported [21:54] mr_pouit: I'm weary of random 3rd party PPAs [21:54] but yeah, i'd say save yourself the work [21:55] micahg: yeah, but from my experience, Users can't wait, they don't care whether it's from the xubuntu team or not, and the versions in backport would be lower than the ones from these ppas [21:56] mr_pouit: http://www.webupd8.org/2011/01/xfce-48-ubuntu-1004-and-1010-ppas.html [21:57] If they look okay, let's go ahead and give them out when asked about it? [21:57] micahg: and fwiw, (s)he took the natty packages, and did s/natty/maverick/ apparently, because the latest changelog entry is still from me :} [21:58] mr_pouit: right, but there's no guarantee it'll stay that way, that's the problem with 3rd party repos [21:58] but the way the backport for 4.6 went, this might be a good thing! [21:58] neither is an Ubuntu dev, so I don't trust their PPAs [21:59] anyway, I don't intend to review/recommend this ppa (not enough time) [21:59] mr_pouit: are either an upstream xfce dev? (that's my otehr criteria for trustworthiness) [22:00] afaik no [22:00] they are mostly on archlinux and lunar :P [22:02] charlie-tca, i'm having problems even entering the graphical installator/livecd with the .iso from yesterday [22:03] try the current one, it should work [22:03] hm, then it is broken again. They said the ubuntu installer was [22:03] mr_pouit: no images today [22:03] mr_pouit, there is only powerpc builds [22:03] mr_pouit, " :] " [22:03] mmh, I downloaded some a few hours ago [22:03] link plz [22:04] okay, they disappeared again [22:04] :P [22:04] any *desktop* iso from 11.04? [22:04] alternate... well, that's the last resort [22:04] (because they contained xfdesktop 4.8.1, so they were from today) [22:07] D/Lding 20110130 daily alternate amd64 [22:07] if that doesn't work, it's a "notworksforme" [22:08] ochosi: http://imagebin.org/135444 [22:10] charlie-tca: thanks, looks ok! [22:10] ochosi: another user on natty - http://i.imgur.com/1n5nH.png [22:11] closer to defaults for the top panel, at least [22:11] ah great [22:11] yeah, looks good [22:12] I guess mine is a little bit different ;-) [22:12] sure ;) but tbh i think the theme still works [22:13] I have to have my clocks, too [22:14] from #ubuntu+1: [22:14] I would like to compliment the Xubuntu team for their work on Natty so far. The new theme looks great and the panel configuration is a nice change from the psuedo-gnome look it had before. [22:31] charlie-tca, the alternate image let me install xubuntu. [22:31] there is hope then ;-) [22:32] apparently not. won't let me in login screne. [22:32] *screen [22:33] it gives you the screen? [22:33] the black screen [22:33] wait [22:33] wait [22:33] wait a long time [22:33] for the first time or every time? [22:33] if that don't work, turn off "quiet splash" in the grub [22:33] first time [22:34] okay [22:34] mine took about three minutes when they moved the -38 kernel in [22:35] crap. [22:35] I think that is part of what they are trying to fix on the images [22:38] disabling quiet splash gives me... black screen [22:38] so i probably should just wait anyway [22:40] check the ctrl+Alt+f?? to see if it came up on the wrong tty too. I had one boot to f8, and f7 was showing. [22:41] well, i'm on vbox and host+f7 is not giving anything [22:41] (which should be the same as c+a+f7 [22:42] anything on host+F8 or F9? [22:42] even tty1 doesn't show anything but black screen [22:43] 32 or 64 bit? [22:43] 64 [22:44] hm, my VBox in natty hates me today [22:44]