[00:00] <j1mc> is it possible to test the live cd via kvm/qemu?
[00:00] <charlie-tca> Got to apply the limited resources and manpower available to get the release out
[00:00] <j1mc> or do you need virtualbox or something?
[00:00] <charlie-tca> j1mc: to the best of my knowledge, yes, as long it is not Ubuntu
[00:01] <charlie-tca> Ubuntu requires 3d, so it is more limited
[00:01] <j1mc> thanks, charlie-tca 
[01:08] <charlie-tca> ochosi: or did I forget a conversation about the hidden panel, and I will put it in the release notes that we did that?
[01:08] <charlie-tca> I really like the way it looks, with that hidden
[01:09] <charlie-tca> cpu graph in the top panel has background to match the panel, it looks like white dotted lines going across
[01:13] <charlie-tca> ochosi: screenshot of top panel with cpu graph in natty alpha2 installed - http://imagebin.org/135682
[01:15] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit, ochosi : are we really using the gnome quit thing now? Where is our quit button?
[01:16] <charlie-tca> I hate that timer thing in Ubuntu, and I don't want it in Xubuntu, please
[01:16] <charlie-tca> I don't need a timer to count or an extra screen asking if I am sure. I hit the damn button. shut it down
[01:19] <cody-somerville> charlie-tca, Are you talking about the shut down button? If so, I strongly disagree since Xubuntu doesn't do the best job waiting for things like gedit to ask you if you want to save your work.
[01:20] <charlie-tca> We do need to copy Ubuntu on the panels, or on the shutdown process. 
[01:20] <charlie-tca> yes, cody-somerville 
[01:20] <cody-somerville> Also, clicking it by mistake is a pain
[01:20] <charlie-tca> natty alpha2 has it exactly as Ubuntu Lucid had it. Name instead of button, count down timer waiting to verify
[01:21] <cody-somerville> ah, I think I understand what you mean now.
[01:21] <charlie-tca> You already had the button, click shutdown, got a screen with 5 buttons in it, pick one
[01:21]  * cody-somerville nods.
[01:21] <cody-somerville> Yea, I agree with you :)
[01:21] <charlie-tca> I am not following Ubuntu nonsense on it
[01:21] <cody-somerville> +1
[01:21] <cody-somerville> we're not planning to put the cpu graph in the panel though are we?
[01:21] <charlie-tca> 0.
[01:22] <charlie-tca> IT is there now. Ochosi is making changes without discussion, sometimes, I think
[01:22] <charlie-tca> I actually thought it was the network trying to connect
[01:23] <charlie-tca> and, I don't really need my name in the panel. I know who I am
[01:24] <cody-somerville> There is no real good way to know who you're logged in as though
[01:24] <cody-somerville> what else does the name thing do?
[01:24] <charlie-tca> by the way. Gedit won't let natty shutdown if it is open
[01:24] <cody-somerville> charlie-tca, It appears that it was mr_pouit who added the cpugraph.
[01:24] <charlie-tca> It has the "suspend, hibernate, restart, shutdown"
[01:25] <charlie-tca> I don't really know what is there. I was kind of pissed to see it
[01:26] <cody-somerville> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/xubuntu-default-settings/trunk/revision/246
[01:26] <charlie-tca> well, if the graph is there, it needs the background changed to not be transparent
[01:27] <charlie-tca> When the cpu is 0%, it doesn't show at all
[01:27] <cody-somerville> It should probably just be removed from the default.
[01:27] <cody-somerville> CPU monitor doesn't really fit the general use case
[01:28] <cody-somerville> and will cause polling so will eat up battery and cpu
[01:28] <charlie-tca> true. It might be a "let's see how it works" thing, though
[01:29] <charlie-tca> I have walked away and left the computer sitting on several times because of the button in Ubuntu now. 
[06:49] <mr_pouit> it's not the ubuntu shutdown menu, it's the plugin from xfce4-session
[06:50] <mr_pouit> and I added cpugraph because it was in the panel layout proposed by ochosi, which was freely available on the shimmer wiki since the beginning, and the link has been given on the ml several times as well.
[06:55] <mr_pouit> so it was easy to say it if you did not agree with it, instead of following cody is his "oh noes they do changes behind my back" thing
[06:55] <cody-somerville> I think you misinterpret my tone. I was similar telling charlie-tca who made the change :P
[06:56] <cody-somerville> s/similar/simply
[14:04] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: don't believe I did anything like "they do chages behind my back". I even came back on the hidden panel to ask if we talked about it.
[14:05] <charlie-tca> However, shimmer is a separate project from Xubuntu. I don't go to the mozilla site to see what they did either
[14:06] <charlie-tca> Why did my installation keep the old shutdown action if this is the new behavior for Xfce?
[14:07] <charlie-tca> Are you telling me if someone does a new installation on one system and an upgrade on the other, they get two different gui's now
[14:11] <knome> charlie-tca, if you think any kind of cooperation between two projects (including looking at the other projects' website) is impossiable, i think we have to stop contributing then
[14:12] <charlie-tca> knome: I did not say that. Please don't start changing my words again
[14:15] <knome> no, seriously, i think it is childish from you to say you won't check what mozilla did either. you know very well we're working on the panel stuff. you could have asked what changes we made. it is not nice to say from you to cody (who still seems to have a strong place in the project saying what should be changed) that somebody is changing stuff behind your back. because that was exactly what i think it was.
[14:15] <knome> if it was not "behind my back", then i do have to say i think it's too much constant micromanagement.
[14:16] <charlie-tca> knome: do you even know what you are talking about? I have been running greybird for over a month. I should have seen any changes to it 
[14:16] <charlie-tca> As to what sights to check, I do not check any of the upstream sites of applications for changes. Shimmer is not a Xubuntu project site. You told me that,.
[14:17] <knome> yes. i know you're talking about changes you didn't see, but this also relates to the conversation earlier.
[14:17] <charlie-tca> cody-somerville has more place in this project than you do, so don't start that again, either
[14:18] <knome> excuse me?
[14:18] <charlie-tca> cody-somerville has more place in this project than you do, so don't start that again, either
[14:19] <cody-somerville> It seems like things are getting a little heated. I think we all have good intentions so lets take a deep breath. :)
[14:22] <charlie-tca> You are right, of course.
[14:22] <charlie-tca> thank you
[14:31] <mr_pouit> charlie-tca: what "old shutdown action"?
[14:32] <mr_pouit> and anyway, it has always been like that, we don't force any change to upgraded systems
[14:32] <charlie-tca> My upgraded installation has the shutdown button, no name, and when clicked, gives me the 5-box window
[14:33] <mr_pouit> yeah, that's normal
[14:33] <charlie-tca> The new alpha2 gives me a name in the panel, click shutdown under that name, it gives me a 30-second countdown timer
[14:33] <mr_pouit> they are two different plugins
[14:33] <charlie-tca> That's my point. They are very different
[14:33] <charlie-tca> Will they become the same one at some point before release?
[14:33] <mr_pouit> no
[14:34] <charlie-tca> Okay, will we put the old one back in instead of the timer thing?
[14:35] <charlie-tca> Oh, maybe you already ansered that, if they won't become the same... 
[14:36] <charlie-tca> I really do not like the timer, in case I did not say that.
[14:36] <mr_pouit> we can discuss about that on the ml or during a meeting. You're the leader anyway, so you can veto and choose to revert even if everyone is to use the new one.
[14:36] <charlie-tca> I told you before I won't do that. If this is a good thing, much as I hate it, I will more deeply look at it
[14:37] <charlie-tca> If that is the future of Xfce, so be it. I do not want us behind the rest, for the sake of what I prefer.
[14:38] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: Have you seen bug 711571?
[14:39] <charlie-tca> gives error and logs out in VBox, gives errors and works in hardware
[14:39] <mr_pouit> yeah, I've already a fix for the misleading error box
[14:40] <charlie-tca> oh, and what do I install to change my upgraded system to that new plugin?
[14:40] <mr_pouit> (not uploaded yet)
[14:40] <mr_pouit> and I reproduced this bug in VBox, but I don't know why it does that
[14:40] <mr_pouit> it seems xfce4-session is killed before it can finish its job
[14:41] <charlie-tca> Will release note it then, to keep users informed
[14:41] <mr_pouit> charlie-tca: add the plugin called "Session Menu" to the panel
[14:41] <charlie-tca> Thanks
[14:45] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: I will apologize for my tone on finding this thing. I really don't like the timer.
[14:46] <mr_pouit> 15:05  charlie-tca: However, shimmer is a separate project from Xubuntu. I don't go to the mozilla site to see what they did either <<<< just to react about that: the link to the future panel layout was given during a meeting (2011-01-06 I'd say), and hasn't changed since that time...
[14:48] <charlie-tca> then I missed the change. You know I added the new panels from ochosi a while back, and upgraded a couple of times when told it changed
[14:49] <charlie-tca> I didn't see it in the maverick screenshots, either.
[14:49] <charlie-tca> As for the hidden, I caught myself on that one. I don't know if we discussed that, and can use some advice on it
[14:51] <charlie-tca> I seem to have picked up the rest of the changes, just the new "name in the panel" thing I missed.
[14:53] <charlie-tca> and, I apologize if it sounded like I was doing that "behind my back" thing, too. I never intended to come across with that. 
[14:53] <charlie-tca> I need to apologize to ochosi for that, too, if that is what is was.
[14:54] <charlie-tca> I thought we were discussing things that will change quite openly, here and in meetings. 
[15:54] <ochosi> ok, i missed quite a bit here
[15:56] <ochosi> charlie-tca: i don't really know where to pick up this discussion, but wrt the panels, i always had the feeling that these processes were entirely transparent
[15:56] <ochosi> charlie-tca: i documented all the steps in the wiki and before anything was changed (as you know i myself can't change anything) it was discussed
[15:57] <ochosi> charlie-tca: and it would be nicer not to be accused of "doing stuff behind other peoples backs"
[15:58] <ochosi> charlie-tca: not getting too much into the emotional stuff from before, ihave to say that i have no clue what cody-somerville's role in xubuntu is (and this is not a rhetorical question, it's a real question)
[16:00] <ochosi> charlie-tca: but the apology is accepted of course, no hard feelings
[16:02] <charlie-tca> ochosi: I will have to try harder not to accuse people of "doing stuff behind other peoples backs" myself. 
[16:02] <charlie-tca> I think the process is very open. But that doesn't mean I don't forget things, too. I need to be reminded sometimes of what we discuss. 
[16:03] <ochosi> sure, no problem with that
[16:03] <ochosi> and if you forget why we went a certain direction we can always talk about it
[16:04] <charlie-tca> yes. I do get frustrated when I see something I greatly dislike, that is a fault of mine.
[16:05] <ochosi> btw, i don't think our cooperation is really comparable with mozilla or any other upstream project
[16:05] <charlie-tca> and why I never saw the name in the panel, I don't know. I looked at a lot of screenshots, and it just never registered in my brain
[16:05] <ochosi> because you simply get what mozilla does, we propose stuff we do to you
[16:05] <ochosi> and everything is up for discussion
[16:06] <charlie-tca> I got asked not to discuss xubuntu in shimmer once before, so I do not think telling me to go there is ever going to work.
[16:06] <ochosi> well, i understand you and knome have your history, i really don't want to get mixed up with that too much
[16:06] <charlie-tca> I do grab the updates, but my quit button never seemed to change
[16:06] <ochosi> i'm always in this channel here as well
[16:07] <charlie-tca> Yeah, there is a reason I don't want to try to discuss stuff there, as you know. 
[16:07] <ochosi> and we put all the xubuntu-related stuff in one page, so it's easier to find: http://wiki.knome.fi/xubuntu:start
[16:07] <charlie-tca> I appreciate your discussing here and in meetings. that works
[16:08] <ochosi> np
[16:08] <charlie-tca> And, I really the work you have put into greybird. I still think it is a really good theme!
[16:09] <ochosi> thanks, i'm generally happy with the way we cooperate
[16:11] <charlie-tca> and you see my comment to mr_pouit above... If this is the new direction of Xfce, with the countdown timer, we will use it, as much as I dislike it
[16:11] <ochosi> yeah, i really don't know why they decided to go that way...
[16:13] <charlie-tca> me neither, but I added the session menu to my panel anyway, so I can be in sync there. 
[16:13] <ochosi> charlie-tca: i'd really like to know though what cody-somerville's role in xubuntu is
[16:14] <cody-somerville> charlie-tca, I'm the former project leader.
[16:14] <charlie-tca> cody-somerville is a former Project Lead, a member of the xubuntu team, and a member of the Xubuntu develpment team
[16:14] <cody-somerville> err
[16:14] <cody-somerville> ochosi, ^^
[16:14] <ochosi> oh, didn't know you were on the team cody-somerville 
[16:14] <cody-somerville> I'm also a Ubuntu Core Developer.
[16:14] <ochosi> right
[16:15] <ochosi> so what do you currently do in xubuntu?
[16:15] <ochosi> (apart from stirring up emotions :) )
[16:15] <charlie-tca> I would also welcome inputs from Jani, if he chose to be here, being the original developer of Xubuntu
[16:16] <cody-somerville> So getting caught up on the discussion here...
[16:17] <ochosi> ?
[16:18] <ochosi> cody-somerville: no i meant what you do in the xubuntu project, as in: packaging etc.
[16:18] <charlie-tca> ochosi: adviser to the project lead :-)
[16:18] <ochosi> ah i see
[16:18] <cody-somerville> I personally feel charlie-tca didn't intend the 'doing stuff behind other people's back' in the way it came across. I know charlie-tca assumes good faith.
[16:19] <ochosi> sure, no that's already forgotten
[16:19] <charlie-tca> cody-somerville also does occasional packaging, bug fixing, and testing
[16:19] <mr_pouit> charlie-tca: this is not the new "direction" of Xfce: this is only a plugin, made by the (previous) maintainer of xfce4-session. The panel developer would've preferred to have only the actions plugin as before
[16:20] <charlie-tca> oh
[16:20] <charlie-tca> Thank you for the information. 
[16:20] <TheSheep> I always have the vague feeling that I'm only seeing scraps and bits of a discussion in here, not a complete conversation. I always lack the context.
[16:20] <ochosi> TheSheep: where can i fill you in?
[16:21] <charlie-tca> heh
[16:21] <TheSheep> ochosi: don't mind me, not worth wasting time, I don't do anything
[16:21] <ochosi> TheSheep: you just did something, i read it :)
[16:22] <TheSheep> ochosi: sorry, I will think more next time
[16:22] <charlie-tca> oh, and maybe I need to add, Not everything is related to being Project Lead. I am also the primary tester of Xubuntu, and comments apply as the testing lead sometimes, not as Project Leader
[16:22] <ochosi> TheSheep: awwh, this channel is so quiet anyways...
[16:22] <ochosi> charlie-tca: not sure if that makes a big difference to me
[16:22] <charlie-tca> okay
[16:23] <ochosi> :)
[16:23] <TheSheep> ochosi: to me it's a good sign: the people are working in accord :P
[16:23] <charlie-tca> I guess perception is 99%, huh?
[16:23] <ochosi> TheSheep: lol
[16:24] <charlie-tca> ochosi: TheSheep is THE person for irc, and moinmoin issues. Also, one of the best helpers we got in #xubuntu
[16:25] <ochosi> charlie-tca: right, i knew he was doing *something*
[16:26] <charlie-tca> I think he solves more issues live than I look at bugs, sometimes
[16:28] <charlie-tca> ochosi: I don't honest questions here. I will not tolerate direct/indirect attacks on anyone, though.
[16:29] <charlie-tca> well, that ain't worded right
[16:30] <charlie-tca> ochosi: I don't mind honest questions here. I or we will do our best to answer them. I will not tolerate direct or indirect attacks on anyone, though.
[16:31]  * cody-somerville gives everyone a big bug.
[16:31] <TheSheep> don't touch me :P
[16:34] <davmor2> TheSheep: Hammertime!
[16:39] <charlie-tca> hm, two days of a busy channel here, what is this coming to? ;-)
[16:44] <davmor2> charlie-tca: see what happens when you take over something cody-somerville can you take the reigns again it was much quieter 
[16:44] <charlie-tca> True, true
[16:44] <charlie-tca> but it is kind of nice to see a little bit of activity here, isn't it?
[16:47] <charlie-tca> OMG! I just realized why I haven't been able to find the **(IJKM: shutdown button in my test installs
[16:47]  * charlie-tca thought the "quit button" was just off screen
[16:48] <charlie-tca> the eye sees what the mind thinks is there... 
[16:52] <ochosi> charlie-tca: no, i don't plan to attack anyone
[16:53] <TheSheep> boooriiing
[16:54] <ochosi> hehe
[16:54] <ochosi> i like your kind of humour TheSheep 
[16:55] <TheSheep> humour? what do you mean? I'm serious
[16:57] <ochosi> lol
[20:37] <charlie-tca> ochosi: If you have time, can you look at the release notes at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NattyNarwhal/TechnicalOverview