[08:45] Hi @ all [11:03] Hm, I see something in /topic prototypical for my issue with isntalling studio from USB: [11:03] "but try not to wande" is missing the last character, just like several file names on the USB drive created by unetbootin are missing pieces. [11:04] I do wonder if it would be possible to shorten some file names ... 64 chars are not enough? [11:05] and before anyone says I should report a bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/unetbootin/+bug/373089 ... but then, I didn't create the USB drive from within ubuntu... [11:05] Ubuntu bug 373089 in UNetbootin "Lost symlinks and long file names when creating USB from Ubuntu ISO" [High,Confirmed] [11:06] 18 files it's on the ubuntu studio 10.10 pool/ [11:08] The missing character in the /topic is just a typo, and unrelated. [11:08] ;-) [11:08] If you can use USB Creator, it ought to work: no idea about unetbootin [11:08] Well, I have to fix up the disk I have now, because I do not have the source machine with the ISO at hand (and neither fast internet) [11:12] * sobukus off to the browser to investigate some file names that got cut even earlier [11:12] pulseaudio packagesa are long-named [11:13] I guess I'd remove pulse anyway, but the installer would cough, I guess ? [11:16] While running without pulse enabled may well work, not having any of pulse installed probably requires removal of more than one might wish. [11:19] well, I have one user that had sound trouble with 10.10 (plain, not studio) on telephone ... told to apt-get remove pulseaudio and that fixed it [11:19] libs are still there, I suppose [11:20] Indeed they are. [11:20] though, I am still highly irritated by pulseaudio still messing up sound for people [11:20] And there are a number of issues with sound that can only be solved through pulseaudio right now. There are still complexities with interaction, but with 10.04 or newer, I don't believe removal is the best way to proceed. [11:21] this user had random failure of totem to play audio [11:21] no way to debug that over phone line ... but removal of pulse did it [11:22] And she doesn't miss anything ... but, right -- we had to install gnome-alsamixer afterwards ... the standard mixer controls work via pulse [11:23] She's lucky: there's more and more stuff that is expecting pulse as part of the desktop. [11:24] hm, and how does that fare for the future of JACK in ubuntu? [11:24] I do have a studio setup with 10.04 and the only audio output is via firewire + jack ... it works nicely currently, everything writes to jack [11:24] Short term, JACK disables pulse output when in use. [11:25] Long term, JACK and pulse negotiate over DBus to determine who has what audio device. [11:27] I do wonder how you would wire up mixer controls (like, function keys) for a jack desktop when all the gnome stuff (including mixer applet) expects pulse [11:27] it would work nicely if the applet could still access alsa .... [11:28] but perhaps in the long future, when they work things out via dbus, pulse still does the mixer control and jack only audio ... [11:28] Not really, because the applet does per-device routing, and integrates with devices that don't have ALSA representation, and does card-merging, etc. [11:28] huh? [11:29] If you *really* want desktop sounds out of JACK, the cleaner way to do it is to have a pulse sink act as a JACK client, so you can select that as an output in the mixer, and then route it as you like through JACK. [11:29] ah, well ... I was speaking of the "simple" case of an alsa hardware device and jack using it .. not virtual setups [11:30] persia: hm, is there a user-manageable way to configure that? [11:30] I don't know what you mean by virtual. Some common use cases that rely on that sort of thing include: bluetooth audio devices, USB audio devices (and autoswitching so as not to conflict with onboard), etc. [11:30] USB audo devices are ALSA [11:31] usually [11:31] My understanding is that pulseaudio-module-jack is kinda experimental still. You'd end up using the regular mixer to route audio there, but I'm not sure how it's represented, precisely. [11:31] hm [11:31] Yes, but the autoswitching is handled by pulse, so it can be seamless. [11:32] heh, that reminds me ... I not sure if bluetooth isn't still broken for her laptop (the user I spoke of) [11:32] bluetooth audio working with the desktop depends on GNOME. bluetooth HID ought work. [11:32] Err, depends on pulse [11:33] persia: autoswitching (if it Does The Right Thing, of course) is one application where I see use for pulse [11:34] autoswitching, BT support, easy network transport, centralised per-application volume controls, per-application routing for multiple devices (I want my music in my headset, but I want my alert beep to come from my monitor), etc. [11:34] well, my user doesn't care about network ... per-app volume is also too complicated already ... and don't speak of routine;-) [11:34] routing, I mean [11:35] There's lots of nifty stuff it does: the trick is 1) finishing the work to get it to play nice with JACK, and 2) stopping the now obsolete rumour that removing pulse "fixes" sound, and concentrating on fixing the issues (usually with ALSA) that are causing the problem. [11:35] autoswitching is routing :) [11:36] well, sadly, the rumor is not obsolete [11:36] I don't know what was the issue, but plain normal desktop audio was broken for her ... sometimes totem would complain it cannot play audio, and later it worked [11:37] we'll try it again on next ubuntu release, I suppose ... but this is one very impatient user who doesn't appreciate experiments [11:37] Yes. This wasn't because of pulse. And now, as she believes it works (although only for a narrower set of use cases), it is difficult to get the necessary data to fix the issue (probably in ALSA or gstreamer) [11:37] Anyway, doesn't matter. No point you and I arguing about it. [11:37] yeah [11:38] And about fixing the issue, I'm still waiting for progress on any of the bugs I reported with machines of my peers. [11:38] There is no shortage of bug reports, I reckon ... people fixing them are needed. [11:38] Could be you :) [11:39] I've seen that coming, but no. I have other chores. [11:39] Depends on your level of annoyance, I guess. I fixed a few bugs where nobody else seemed to want to do it, most of which involved finding a patch someone else wrote on the internet, testing it, and following some procedures to get it into Ubuntu. [11:40] Maybe you'll get annoyed enough about something later :) [11:40] Personally, I only use ubuntu on the studio machine (to make it easier for others there) ... fixing up GNOME/gstreamer/pulse stuff doesn't fit my personal profile of running Source Mage GNU/Linux with fluxbox ... [11:45] oh, and I do have ubuntu on a media center box ... but without pulse and with fluxbox [11:45] it's hooked up to the hifi system ... no bluetooth routing needed;-) [11:46] * sobukus fading into lunch [12:06] meh [12:07] gnome makes stuff quicker and easier [12:07] fluxbox etc is okay if you've got time to dick around with config files [13:06] gordonjcp: but once you got it configured it's swell [13:06] gordonjcp: issue at hand was that I wanted the suspend button on the multimedia keyboard to shutdown the machine [13:06] I was unable to configure that in gnome ... it had the suspend hardwired [13:07] but now something ubuntu studio related: the clock setup on the 10.10 install dvd fails here ... cannot find rdate [13:07] sobukus: meh [13:08] hm, tzsetup, neither [13:08] sobukus: great if that sort of thing floats your boat [13:08] * sobukus wonders if this is more messup of the USB drive from unetbootin [13:09] install Arch Linux, type in "pacman -Syu && pacman -S gnome", leave it for a few minutes and boom, everything magically works [13:09] or, stick in an Ubuntu CD, leave it for half an hour... [13:09] sobukus, It's exceedingly likely to be issues with the installer data [13:09] gordonjcp: ... except the key for shutting down;-) [13:10] persia: I see things about rdate_udeb not found ... but I do see the file, .udeb file name fully intact [13:10] but sure, that's the canonical assumption [13:11] That's fairly strange behaviour, and not something commonly reported (despite lots of 10.10 installs on various hardware) [13:11] why would you press a key to shut down, or indeed shut down at all? [13:11] Ubuntu is notoriously hard to install [13:12] gordonjcp: I turn the media box off as well as I happen to turn of a TV from time to time ... [13:12] you've got to jump through all sorts of hoops to get it onto some install media, because they only provide .iso files for burning to "CD-ROMs" [13:12] I guess if you live in 1995 you might still have optical media on a PC [13:13] persia: ah, rebooting after fixing the broken file names helps ... seems some of the brokeness was cached [13:13] gordonjcp: in fact, this laptop here does have an optical drive ... which is broken and hence most of it removed to reduce weight;-) [13:14] gordonjcp, There's USB Creator, which is designed to safely convert from the .ISO files to USB or SD, which are the common install methods. [13:14] persia: but you have to have Ubuntu already [13:14] my trouble was only that I didn't start with a ubuntu system and so used unetbootin instead of the creator [13:14] persia: or figure out how to install it in another distro [13:14] ah [13:14] there's your problem, unetbootin doesn't work [13:15] it chops off long file names (doesn't do rockridge) [13:15] it's an elaborate hoax [13:18] * sobukus feels slightly guilty for accepting the default partioning with one big root [13:18] hm ... and then ... I should have disabled swap. I don't want any swapping happen on a media creation box [13:19] if the ram does not suffice, one is in trouble [13:19] swap is obsolete [13:20] swap and root are two things that should have died and been buried over a decade ago [13:20] OSS, too [13:21] root ? [13:23] the root user [13:23] oh [13:24] well, ubuntu effectively kills the root account for people who cannot do sudo passwd [13:24] it doesn't kill it well enough [13:24] "sudo passwd root" should be aliased by default to "rm -rf /" [13:25] now you are just meing mean [13:25] because if you have a root login you're too fundamentally retarded to use a modern Unix-y OS [13:25] gordonjcp: I disagree. And I somewhat resent your tone. [13:25] Let's try to avoid that sort of characterisation. [13:25] if you want to have a user with absolute power over every aspect of the system as a default state, switch to DOS [13:26] There's arguments in favour of richer ACLs, but it's better to frame them in terms of advantages, rather than insulting users of the current model. [13:26] persia: indeed [13:26] of course, the other consideration is the Petrol Engine Problem [13:27] the way that most Unixes do user permissions and have a root user is so utterly broken and hideously wrong, and totally sucks - just like petrol engines, they're noisy, smelly and bad for the environment [13:27] but [13:28] everything else sucks *worse* in some crucial way [13:28] and so we're stuck with it [13:28] Please, could we focus on how to improve things. That sort of tone really doesn't help us achieve a better system. [13:29] persia: switch to Haiku ;-) [13:29] you're right though [13:42] oh, on the isntalling ubuntu from USB ... that kernel parameter cdrom-detect/try-usb=true is essential ... and I do wonder why it's not on by default [13:43] It's adjusted in the bootloader by USB Creator, but not desired for installs from actual optical media. [13:43] are USB DVD drives an issue? [13:44] Should work fine. I haven't tried to use one to install Ubuntu since 8.04, but I can't think of any reason they would have stopped working. [13:44] the blog post where I found that parameter suggested that it also needs that parameter [13:44] with USB dvd drives [13:47] I think it does: I remember having to add something to boot that way (although I'll admit to not remembering precisely) [13:54] hm, that indeed would be bad [13:54] as even the (broken) built-in DVD in this laptop is hooked up via USB [13:57] Probably needs investigation: there ought be a separation of "device which happens to be on the USB bus" and "device which is being treated as a fixed SCSI secondary storage repository" [14:02] but generally ... distros should consider installation via thumb drives more common [14:02] not only ubuntu (at least there's that USB creator) [14:03] it's a waste to burn DVDs/CDs just for one-time install use [14:03] Depends. [14:04] I know one person who makes a CD for each install, and puts that CD on top of the machine for the entire life of the machine, for ease of recovery if anything goes wrong. [14:04] I know someone else who uses rewritables over and over and over and over, etc. [14:05] And I know someone else who coordinates large print runs of thousands and gives them away at local conferences. [14:05] yeah, rewritables ... never really bothered for those ... is not fun [14:06] persia: since some time now, people give away thumb drives at conferences (opensolaris did this a long time ago) [14:06] I guess. I can't afford to do that :) [14:06] yup [14:07] anyhow, once all pcs come with ubuntu preinstalled, you don't need install media anymore, eh? [14:07] Printed CDs here cost about a tenth of a can of coffee, whereas a good USB drive costs almost as much as a hot lunch in a restaurant. [14:07] Heh :) [14:25] dammit, I almost forgot how _sluggish_ this 945GMA video chip is under linux [14:25] the GUI takes ages to redraw things [14:25] I move a dialog window and have to wait half a second before the blank space of the formerly covered window is redrawn [14:26] hm, no, sorry [14:26] it's the updater app that is slow on redraws while it is pulling data from the net [14:26] isn't it multithreaded? [14:27] Oh, and the thing I actually wanted to bitch about: Who had the splendit idea to change the window decoration buttons to the same icon for all three in the same color!? [14:28] I so hope that I find the old human theme for 10.10 ... the user I am doing this for does not appreciate unnecessary changes in the UI [14:41] hm ... I understand that network-manager can be troublesome with audio work ... but since there's a network configuration dialog to replace that in studio, why does it not offer a "scan" function that just calls ifconfig up $dev && iwlist $dev scan ./ [14:42] you cannot expect people to type in wlan essids out of the blue [14:43] I am tempted to just install network-manager ... as that's what the user knows ... but of course, it could mess up. But would it, given that wireless is disabled per switch? [14:49] On the visual sluggishness of the updater application: This is gone when switching to another theme than the ubuntustudio one! For some reason the default theme eats up CPU/video like mad. [14:49] Thats strange for a media creation box where performance matters. [14:50] gnome-network-config is a bit feature poor, and upstream isn't all that active these days. [14:50] well, because people use network manger I guess [14:50] If you aren't performance constrained, it's safe to install network manager, but be aware that it may cause unexpected load, which may impact something (depending on your usage and hardware) [14:51] persia: do you happen to know if current network manager behaves well (i.e. does nothing) when the wlan is disabled (rfkill)? [14:51] Please file a bug about the theme, especially if you can provide metrics or something. [14:51] That ought get sorted. [14:51] I don't know. [14:52] there must have been bug reports about this ... [14:53] about the theme, I am puzzled, as the slowness does not show when moving the progress window over unrelated windows (a terminal) [14:54] Perhaps: never hurts to check. [14:56] well, I was able to do a screenshot while the updater window was still not redrawn [14:56] can send that one in ... that I am able to hit a key and capture the intermediate state should aptly demonstrate that that drawing is too slow. [14:56] Indeed :) [15:22] sobukus: did/would you add yourself to https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+bug/697774 [15:22] Ubuntu bug 697774 in Ubuntu Studio "cant install ubuntustudio from USB stick" [Undecided,New] [15:24] I could ... [15:26] theres https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+bug/695892 [15:26] too [15:26] Ubuntu bug 695892 in Ubuntu Studio "no live CD for ubuntustudio" [Wishlist,New] [15:26] i think this is relevant [15:26] since it would 'fix' the USB install thing [15:29] 09:41 < sobukus> hm ... I understand that network-manager can be troublesome with audio work ... but since there's a network configuration dialog to replace that in studio, why does it not offer a "scan" function that just calls ifconfig up $dev && iwlist $dev scan ./ [15:29] ^^ i like that [15:30] holstein: though, are you sure network manager still is troublesome for audio? one should be able to get that fixed ... [15:31] I mean, it would be fine to tell the user "don't plug/unplug LAN, do disable your WLAN when doing audio stuff" [15:31] network manager should be able to do nothing in that case, or not? [15:32] sobukus: i think i have a bug for that too ;) [15:32] and, i agree [15:32] i routinely explain how to install that package here [15:33] BUT, it is likely that the network manager *could* cause an xrun [15:33] withouth pluging [15:33] the rakarrack dev explained it to me once [15:33] and it made since [15:34] said that it really is not that crucial on a modern machine [15:34] but something about polling i want to say [15:34] i forget the term [15:34] something that the network manager can and does do in the background [15:34] that could be bad [15:35] IF the system was being pushed hard enough [15:36] sobukus: its a drag though [15:36] nobody else uses the network manager we do [15:36] so, nobody cares about it [15:36] it would be challenging to get anything added to it i bet [15:37] *not impossible though [15:37] and this issue *is* something that needs attention [15:37] sobukus: /j #ubuntustudio-devel [15:38] holstein: I am trying to play the disgruntled user only:-/ [15:38] totally fine [15:38] BUT, i can say, this network issue [15:38] I'll get to that bug you pointed... provide my experience about installing from USB [15:38] not even on the radar right now [15:39] and wont be for a while [15:39] are you saying that nobody uses network manager? [15:39] besides ubuntu? [15:39] sobukus: no other distro [15:39] besides ubuntustudio [15:39] that i know of [15:39] as far as spuring development of added features [15:39] eh ... what does ubuntu plain use? [15:40] gnome network manager ? [15:40] maybe im not using the right package name [15:40] the one the nm-applet [15:40] so studio has a different one [15:40] I am confused. [15:41] the one with a panel notifier and all [15:41] thats the one vanilla uses [15:41] and has [15:41] and thats the one that is being actively developed [15:41] and studio ... per default none, but the one on the DVD is what kind of breed? [15:41] the one US uses is different [15:41] no panel applet running [15:42] and AFAIK [15:42] we are the only distro using it [15:42] the panel applet is the evil? [15:42] ... and why? [15:42] i think that is the part that 'polls' [15:42] and can cause the xrun [15:42] which is something that everyone else would consider an improvement [15:43] and it is* [15:43] arguably [15:43] hm ... but without the applet the network manager does not exist for users [15:43] like, choosing WLANs [15:43] well, as it is now, yes [15:43] background scanning of network-manager can cause xruns [15:43] there wouuld need to be work done on the one we use [15:44] to add that feature you mentioned sobukus [15:44] OR an alternate network-manager for US to use [15:44] sobukus: if you want, look for a bug report [15:45] wait ... the feature I mentioned was for tha static network config dialog that is installed by default [15:45] and if there is not one [15:45] make one [15:45] link it here [15:45] that is not network manager, is it? [15:45] and i'll join it [15:45] sobukus: right, thats how i understand it [15:45] that has a different package name [15:46] ok so there is network-manager in normal ubuntu and there is this other network config dialong in US [15:46] not multiple network-manager versions [15:46] ? [15:46] sobukus: right [15:46] there are multiple network tools though [15:46] wicd for example [15:47] yeah, I heard that this is the super-duper cure-all and such [15:47] but ubuntu keeps the network-manager, right? [15:47] as default [15:47] vanilla [15:47] not sure which others [15:47] maybe xubuntu [15:48] lubuntu uses wicd i think [15:48] ok, then ... do you think it would be hard to convince network manager folks to provide a button for the user to disable any polling? [15:48] sobukus: yes [15:48] yes i do [15:48] that sucks [15:48] why would MOST folk want a confusing button laying around [15:48] ;-) [15:48] for the 6 ubuntustudio users [15:48] that care about that [15:49] and know what it is [15:49] sobukus: i think that would be te argument [15:49] the* [15:49] OK, then ... so the solution is to install network-manager and provide my user with a nasty button/icon that runs a script to stop/start the network manager daemon [15:50] Doesn't need network while doing audio work. [15:50] sobukus: thats a possible solution [15:50] Disable it and use wpa_supplicant ;) [15:50] AutoStatic: :) [15:50] I don't want my user to learn another way to get into networks. [15:50] network-manager is a horrible tool [15:50] Real Users don't want to learn alternate ways to get the same thing. [15:50] AutoStatic: the more i use it, the more i have to agree with that [15:51] Especially when you don't roam from network to network [15:51] it sorta works and it's what ubuntu users are used to [15:51] But just want to use one single wifi network [15:51] sobukus: and mostly what i see in here is the user that installed US on a notebook, and just want to get online in any way [15:51] I for myself, as I don't use ubuntu daily, also don't use any kind of network management. [15:52] sobukus: we could also maybe have a script [15:52] something like what you mentioned [15:52] as a button [15:52] Sometimes I really wonder if a Macbook user that does music has wifi enabled [15:52] I really doubt it [15:52] AutoStatic: if its on a macbook pro [15:52] i bet they do [15:52] and dont know what you mean by 'disable' it [15:52] for the most part [15:53] I agree [15:53] BUT they should [15:53] i have a macbook [15:53] and i see the polling happening [15:54] OK, then ... but now I got a more basic issue ... I updated the fresh 10.10 install ... AND MY MOUSE BUTTONS DON'T WORK ANY PANEL [15:54] (sorry for shouting) [15:54] I cannot get into the main menu [15:55] I cannot click on menu entries in a window [15:55] I can click on "body" elements, thouh. === frederickjh is now known as frederickjh_away [15:55] sobukus: whats the issue? [15:55] Hm, after switching to a console and back, it works again [15:55] is this your issue? [15:56] Yes ... after the reboot & login ... the panel didn't work. [15:56] OK [15:56] alt+f1 also didn't open the menu [15:56] you have a 10.10 install [15:56] 32 bit? [15:56] 64? [15:56] 64 [15:56] OK [15:56] ubuntustudio? [15:56] or vanilla install? [15:57] studio [15:57] installed via unetbootin+usb drive [15:57] you updated? [15:58] yes [15:58] after install [15:58] sudo apt-get update [15:58] and upgrade? [15:58] like that? [15:58] or how? [15:58] from the update applet ... it popped up and I said Yes, [15:58] but I cannot reproduce the issue, of course [15:58] OK [15:58] i would tell 'it' not to bother me [15:58] but, whatever [15:59] your choice [15:59] sobukus: go somewhere [15:59] synaptic [15:59] or terminal [15:59] * sobukus rebooting to check if it happens on first login [15:59] and make sure you have all the packages updated [15:59] i like [15:59] sudo apt-get update [15:59] and [15:59] sudo apt-get upgrade [15:59] OR [15:59] sudo apt-get dist-upgrade [16:00] IF needed ^^ [16:00] hm, no aptitude ;-> [16:00] what does that mean? [16:00] no aptitude? [16:00] did you get an error running apt-get update? [16:00] well, I hear that aptitude is the new apt-get [16:00] OH [16:00] use that if you want [16:01] some people try to get users away from apt-get [16:01] i find that sometimes i have to run apt-get to get the kernel update [16:01] everything is fine on that front, anyway [16:01] at the end of sudo aptitude safe-upgrade [16:01] so I cannot reproduce the thing, must file it under one-time fluke :-/ [16:01] sobukus: fine? [16:01] no packaging issues [16:01] you're sure its all updated? [16:01] yes [16:01] OK [16:02] so, what does 'mouse buttons dont work on any panel' mean? [16:02] I means that I clicked on the menu button and nothing happened, [16:02] cant right or left click on any panel item? [16:02] sobukus: and its still like that? [16:03] after a reboot? [16:03] I double-clicked on a PNG lying on the desktop, image viewer opens ... and there, clicks into the menu bar don't do anything [16:03] holstein: No, sorry. I logged out/in again and since then it's back to normal [16:03] OH [16:03] also after a reboot [16:03] thats plausible then [16:03] issue not reproducable [16:03] especially if you had just installed [16:03] o.O [16:03] and that was the first upgrade [16:04] that could have been, and probably was a bunch of packages [16:04] in vanilla, when you upgrade something that requires a restart [16:04] you usually get a prompt [16:04] and the power button turns red [16:04] in the panel [16:04] anyhow, since xruns are not that swell yet with the standard setup, I'd like to go for a better kernel ... anything against alessio's natty lowlat kernel? [16:04] im not sure if US does that prompting [16:04] holstein: I did that first restart [16:05] the broken session was after the first reboot after the update [16:05] sobukus: interesting [16:05] i still wouldnt lose sleep over it [16:05] til it happens again [16:05] actually, i wouldnt run a non-LTS verion of ubuntustudio personally ;) [16:05] but, i can imagine some session issue [16:06] with the US theme of something [16:06] with the US theme or something* [16:06] sobukus: i think we should call that a 'glitch' instead of a bug [16:06] for now :) [16:06]