[01:14] <Billg> Hello.  I'm blind and I'm using ubuntu 10.10 (with orca/gnome) with vmware inside my windows 7.  I'm using the orca screen reader with autologin (does not work at login screen).  Anyway, I had to have someone else install my setup for me on windows 7.
[01:17] <Billg> I'm not sure if installation are very accessible, besides being new to the whole linux thing last semeseter.  But I wanted to start trying out if I can help develop for ubuntu.  The beginner websites that explain are not very helpful for a blind person.  The testdrive explanations have pictures and tell you to click here, etc. 
[01:22] <charlie-tca> Billg: the installer in 10.10 is not accessible. The installer in the development version, called Natty Narwhal, is being worked to make it accessible.
[01:23] <charlie-tca> Billg: we do have some information at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Accessibility that will help. There is also a guide to installing with Orca, the screen reader, there.
[01:24] <Billg> so what is my best work around for now, for setting up current devel releases ?
[01:24] <Pendulum> Billg: as far as development goes, you might want to talk to TheMuso
[01:25] <charlie-tca> I usually test in VirtualBox, but for the current Natty, it won't work there yet for us.
[01:37] <Billg> how do i whisper or talk to someone privately?
[01:56] <JackyAlcine> Billg: enter /msg <nickname> <message>
[02:00] <hajour> JackyAlcine,  is open mary already working?
[02:01] <JackyAlcine> It would, but I need Abhinva1's code to get audio output working.
[02:02] <hajour> i think Billg  could use it ,
[02:03] <hajour> if it is ready then we should say it to Billg 
[02:04] <hajour> Billg,  have you a webcam ?
[02:04] <hajour> JackyAlcine,  if he have a webcam let him turn it to the monitor
[02:04] <hajour> so 1 off you can watch for Billg 
[02:05] <JackyAlcine> Ah, but how would we stream his video to our client.
[02:05] <hajour> to install orca
[02:05] <JackyAlcine> hajour: He has Ocra installed.
[02:05] <hajour> i remember a other person who is helped that way
[02:06] <hajour> what have he need more then ?
[02:06] <hajour> i try to think to
[02:06] <hajour> to help
[02:07] <hajour> also Billg  we have start working on a talking irc bot
[02:08] <hajour> if we can test it would you wanted to help with testing?
[02:08] <hajour> JackyAlcine, 
[02:08] <hajour> have you Billg  on skype or something?
[02:09] <JackyAlcine> the bots are highly experimental.
[02:09] <hajour> well he is blind it is mend for issues llike that
[02:09] <hajour> and he wanted to help
[02:10] <hajour> who can better say or it works then a person who is blind
[02:11] <hajour> can Billg  hear now what iis in chat.or do you give it  treu to him JackyAlcine ?
[02:20] <hajour> and this was 1 of the reasons i started speechcontrol
[02:21] <hajour> mhall119, 
[02:21] <hajour> if speechcontrol is ready
[02:21] <hajour> can it then automatic install by the cd for to put unbuntu on a pc ?
[02:22] <hajour> we don't really help if they cant install it alone
[02:23] <JackyAlcine> For it be automatically installed with Ubuntu, hajour; we'd have to make the freeze date, and that's not possible.
[02:23] <hajour> in the next then?
[02:23] <hajour> i don't give easy up :P
[02:24] <hajour> but JackyAlcine  have you read the rest to?
[02:24] <JackyAlcine> yup.
[02:24] <hajour> ok
[02:24] <hajour> i had doubt about that
[02:24] <JackyAlcine> Perhaps in 12.04+
[02:25] <hajour> we go do our best
[04:06] <mhall119> hajour: if it won't cause problems with other parts of Ubuntu, you might be able to get a feature freeze exception to get it into the repositories for Natty
[04:49] <hajour> JackyAlcine, ^ read what mhall119  says
[06:59] <AlanBell> hajour: I did read your suggestion for classes, but I didn't really understand it, maybe put it on http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org and we can edit it to reveal the meaning
[15:22] <JanC> hm, I just hear that Qt a11y depends on AT-SPI2 which is not finished and currently nobody has time or wants to spend money on it...?   :-/
[15:23] <fregl> JanC: where do you hear that?
[15:25] <JanC> from some KDE application developers
[15:25] <fregl> JanC: if it makes you feel better: currently there is no a11y support for qt apps
[15:26] <JanC> fregl: I know, that's what we were talking about
[15:26] <fregl> so who were you talking to? who else is involved there currently?
[15:26] <JanC> or, well, they say what Qt a11y there is is based on at-spi2
[15:27] <JanC> and at-spi2 is not finished yet(?)
[15:27] <JanC> that's at-spiu over DBus instead of CORBA
[15:27]  * fregl currently looks at the qt-at-spi2 bridge...
[15:28] <JanC> hm, it seems natty has at-spi2 ?
[15:28] <JanC> so maybe their info is outdated  ;)
[15:28] <fregl> JanC: who were you talking to?
[15:30] <JanC> boud & some other guy involved with Krita
[15:31] <fregl> good, I'm currently trying to figure out the situation a bit
[15:32] <maco> nokia/trolltech (forget which) did at some point have in their press releases that there was at-spi support, but then one of the qt guys at nokia said at uds its not roadmapped and when i pointed out the press release said it must be wrong. maybe they have super-duper-basic support for just a few things and only in at-spi2?
[15:33] <fregl> maco: the press release is wrong. there is also no at-spi2 support.
[15:33] <fregl> so much for the bad side...
[15:33] <JanC> apparently one problem is/was at-spi is based on CORBA, and at-spi2 on DBus and as they already had DBus-support...
[15:33] <fregl> there is an attempt to create a qt at-spi 2 bridge
[15:33] <maco> fregl: who is doing that attempt?
[15:34] <fregl> the problem is that it's broken/unfinished
[15:34] <fregl> it got started 2 years ago by someone that I don't know and jpwhiting did some fixes on it later
[15:35] <fregl> http://gitorious.org/qt-at-spi
[15:35] <JanC> fregl: if I understand correctly it was working-with-bugs until the at-spi2 API changed
[15:35] <fregl> well, time to get it working for real
[15:37] <JanC> fregl: is Ubuntu actually using atspi2 in natty?
[15:38] <fregl> JanC: I have no clue. there are packages, I think TheMuso can tell you more.
[15:39] <JanC> I see both libatspi & libatspi2 are in the repositories, let's see if I can see something on a running system...  ☺
[15:40] <charlie-tca> at-spi2-core got into natty 7 days ago
[15:41] <JanC> bah, natty became very unstable recently...
[15:43] <fregl> JanC: for qt apps? nothing will work unless you build the bridge yourself
[15:44] <JanC> fregl: no, I mean whether Ubuntu uses atspi 1 or 2 for Gtk apps currently
[15:44] <fregl> by default atspi1, you can manually switch to atspi2
[15:44] <JanC> atspi 1 will never work with Qt
[15:45] <fregl> correct
[15:45] <JanC> so they are more or less waiting on a stable atspi2  :-/
[15:59] <JackyAlcine> Which won't happen any time soon.
[16:03] <JanC> JackyAlcine: you know more about that?
[16:06] <JanC> I mean, it would be sad if Qt/KDE developers want to implement a11y but are held back because atspi2 is delayed in GNOME ?   :-/
[16:08] <charlie-tca> But it would be really great to get a11y working well even in gnome
[16:14] <JackyAlcine> Compared to the a11y in KDE, GNOME's a11y is a gem.
[16:18] <charlie-tca> the real question is "does it really work well"
[18:39] <Billg> Hello... anyone here know a blind programmer or is one who develops for ubuntu?  I'm looking for an easy way to get current devel releases without having to use a GUI.  
[18:39] <AlanBell> hi Billg, TheMuso develops for ubuntu
[18:40] <AlanBell> best way to get the current devel release is probably install something that installs and upgrade
[18:45] <Billg> you know about any non-GUI apps that do that?  the update-manager is not accessible
[18:45] <AlanBell> do-release-upgrade -d
[18:45] <AlanBell> I think
[18:45] <AlanBell> one sec . . .
[18:46] <AlanBell> yeah, that should work
[18:46] <maco> u-m not accessible? oh goody
[18:47] <AlanBell> but it is a cross fingers and toes and everything else operation
[18:47] <Pendulum> maco: It may be in Natty. Webkit is substantially better now than it was for Maverick
[18:47] <AlanBell> maco: that will be the gksudo problem
[18:47] <maco> gksudo problem?
[18:47] <maco> Pendulum: i didnt think there was any webkit in u-m, just in usc
[18:48] <AlanBell> orca runs as the user, update-manager runs as root
[18:48] <AlanBell> orca isn't allowed to see it
[18:48] <maco> doh
[18:48] <Pendulum> ah, AlanBell knows the actual answer :)
[18:48] <charlie-tca> yup
[18:48] <AlanBell> There was some discussion somewhere about fixing it, I only got as far as understanding the problem
[18:48] <charlie-tca> that is not limited to update-manager, either, is it?
[18:49] <AlanBell> no
[18:49] <maco> anything that uses policykit should be fine though right?
[18:49] <maco> like the users & groups thingy?
[18:49] <AlanBell> I think that is the solution, yse
[18:49] <AlanBell> yes
[18:49] <charlie-tca> anything that uses gksu is bad, as I recall
[18:50] <JanC> everything using gksu is also a security issue, but it's not always easy to port applications to policykit
[18:51] <Billg> update manager is partly accessible just not the part that lets you upgrade your version of ubuntu
[18:52] <JanC> that's probably a part of synaptic
[18:52] <JanC> or used by both
[18:56] <JanC> or is it just the dialog that warns about risks & shows what it will do etc.?
[21:07] <TheMuso> JanC: Likely the aprt thats running as root.
[21:07] <TheMuso> part
[21:08] <TheMuso> There are a few things put in place to make that work if you install Ubuntu using an accessibility profile.
 if it won't cause problems with other parts of Ubuntu, we might be able to get a feature freeze exception to get it into the repositories for Natty. but we need some more help to do that
 open mary ^
 a speak program for blind and people with issues
 we are looking still for C++ people who are familiar with Glibmm and Gstreamermm.
 and Python people should know PyGtk.
 4 of each
 so who can help we would appreciate it 
[21:26] <AlanBell> is it in debian?
[21:27] <hajour> ubuntu
[21:27] <hajour> uh??
[21:28] <hajour> i dont understand the question complete AlanBell 
[21:28] <AlanBell> it really needs to get into debian and then be synced into ubuntu from there
[21:28] <AlanBell> I don't think you will get a feature freeze exception for it
[21:28] <AlanBell> not my decision by any means
 hajour: if it won't cause problems with other parts of Ubuntu, you might be able to get a feature freeze exception to get it into the repositories for Natty
[21:29] <hajour> AlanBell, ^
[21:29] <mhall119> hajour: you'll have to talk to a motu about it
[21:29] <AlanBell> but the way to get stuff into ubuntu is to get it into debian first, unless it is an important unique part of Ubuntu
[21:30] <hajour> we have motu s in the team mhall119 
[21:30] <AlanBell> is it in a PPA?
[21:30] <hajour> we have still not a good working speech program AlanBell  so i think it is important 
[21:30] <mhall119> I know I've gotten FFEs in the past because my packages didn't impact anything else
[21:31] <hajour> i have told the team what you said mhall119 
[21:31] <hajour> there are working really hard on it already
[21:31] <hajour> and we have just get 2 new people to
[21:32] <AlanBell> great
[21:32] <AlanBell> I do hope it gets in
[21:32] <hajour> jmarsden is packaging  together with RainCT
[21:33] <hajour> jmarsden is the new person who this evening have offert his help
[21:33] <hajour> also duanedesign have offert his help
[21:34] <hajour> and Billg he want to help testing
[21:35] <erkan^> wat betekent capsule papier, hajour ?
[21:35] <erkan^> kan nergesn vinden
[21:36] <hajour> uhm ik weet even niet wat je bedoelt erkan^ :)
[21:36] <erkan^> heb jij ook een email van hugo ontvangt? over tactiele view
[21:37] <hajour> ik heb me mail nog niet gelezen maar erkan dit is een engelse chat je mag me wel pm en ok?
[21:38] <AlanBell> I normally love to see conversations in other languages, but as some people will be following this channel with a screen reader it might be best to take that to -nl
[21:39] <erkan^> pm is good too. i try write English too (-: hajour 
[21:41] <erkan^> Good evening AlanBell 
[21:41] <erkan^> I have wroten about Tactile View
[21:41] <erkan^> I don 't know whhat is "capsule paper"
[21:41] <erkan^> (-:
[21:41] <AlanBell> is that the thermal expanding stuff?
[21:42] <AlanBell> I read something about that when I was doing a braille font
[21:43] <erkan^> yes
[21:43] <erkan^> but
[21:43] <erkan^> a friend for me is full deafblindness . he can not read a language. he have need "drawing" 
[21:43] <erkan^> .. swellpaper - drawinng
[21:43] <erkan^> :s
[21:45] <hajour> AlanBell,  i just told erkan^  in dutch this was a english channel and that he may pm me
[21:46] <hajour> thats all what was said and if i had get a email .
[21:46] <AlanBell> ha, so you did!
[21:46] <hajour> yes i have erkan^  in pm now
[21:47] <AlanBell> great
[21:53] <erkan^> di you read that i wrote last message , AlanBell and hajour  /
[21:54] <erkan^> <erkan^> :P
[21:54] <erkan^> <erkan^> I am read now --> http://www.nctd.org.uk/MakingTG/
[21:54] <erkan^> <erkan^> last weeks I had problem with internet connect )-:
[21:54] <erkan^> <erkan^> do you know about "Tactile View", AlanBell ?
[21:55] <AlanBell> thanks erkan^ 
[21:56] <erkan^> i can not found tactile view -software for linux, AlanBell 
[21:57] <AlanBell> what would that software do exactly?
[21:58] <hajour> i think if there would something like that
[21:58] <hajour> it will be a equipment i think
[21:59] <hajour> i never heard about a program like that.most use a speech program then
[21:59] <hajour> uch
[21:59] <hajour> sorry
[21:59] <hajour> delete the last line
[21:59] <erkan^> AlanBell: www.tactileview.com , but that do support for Micro$oft only  . with a tactile view can you draw a program , when you are clear than go you print with "SwellPaper Drawining" . 
[22:00] <erkan^> Did I write good English language, hajour ? :S
[22:03] <AlanBell> erkan^: that looks a lot like a cut down inkscape
[22:03] <AlanBell> with some gimp-like filters for making images into high contrast line drawings
[22:04] <hajour> he was maco not making something for deaf people?
[22:04] <hajour> AlanBell, ^
[22:04] <AlanBell> filters-artistic-cartoon is the similar gimp plugin I was thinking of
[22:04] <AlanBell> hajour: not exactly
[22:05] <AlanBell> maco is working on a tutorial tool for American sign language
[22:05] <AlanBell> it can do other sign languages of course
[22:06] <hajour> AlanBell,  where could i go for to make a equipment for for accessibility  in ubuntu?
[22:07] <erkan^> I don't like GIMP
[22:07] <erkan^> :S
[22:07] <hajour> we are busy with something
[22:07] <hajour> i will fill you in later AlanBell  i need first a real good plan
[22:08] <hajour> if we have the plan ready i would appreciate if you would look at it AlanBell 
[22:10] <erkan^> I am deaf and you , AlanBell  ?
[22:10] <AlanBell> sure
[22:10] <AlanBell> erkan^: I am currently fully able bodied
[22:11] <erkan^> do you mean that you can not talk, AlanBell  ?
[22:12] <AlanBell> I can talk
[22:12] <AlanBell> sometimes it is hard to get me to shut up
[22:13] <erkan^> ok i undestand
[22:13] <erkan^> i am deaf and retinitis pigmentosa (combi syndrome usher), do you that AlanBell  ?
[22:13] <charlie-tca> erkan^: AlanBell is one the few not disabled people that seems able to understand disabilities well.
[22:15] <erkan^> ok
[22:20] <hajour> i have explain it charlie-tca  to erkan^ :)
[22:20] <charlie-tca> thanks, hajour 
[22:20] <hajour> but i am in 6 ppm s and 18 channels
[22:20] <hajour> and i really nreed to eat and take my medicine
[22:21] <charlie-tca> If we could get the rest of Ubuntu to understand the way AlanBell does, it would be easy getting accessibility in Ubuntu.
[22:22] <AlanBell> hah, well really I don't understand it properly, I can't
[22:22] <AlanBell> however with the persona stuff I can help improve the general level of understanding in a positive direction
[22:24] <hajour> AlanBell,  i have trouble writing with that big pieces but i thould i can record what i have on knowledge for the persona s and then send it to 1 of you
[22:24] <erkan^2> i have msised here
[22:24] <erkan^2> :ws
[22:25] <hajour> well i read laterthe answer i really need to eat