[01:01] ailo: performance is similar right? [01:02] i bet this kernel issue is about to just take care of itself [01:02] * holstein crosses fingers [01:02] holstein: what kernel issua? [01:02] well, our kernel issue [01:02] the US need for -lowlatency or -rt [01:03] holstein: I found the latest -generic to have exactly as low latency as -lowlatency, but didn't do extensive testing [01:03] After another look, -generic does not seem to have the same preempt configurations, so I wonder how it works :/ [01:03] you could ask JFo [01:03] maybe he would know that [01:04] BUT thats great news on performance [01:04] i know thats where we are heading [01:04] and im cool with it [01:04] i need to check it with FW [01:04] there have been a number of improvements to performance from upstream [01:04] I couldn't believe it at first. Yea, you should check your with your fw :) [01:04] it is part of the effort to move -rt into the kernel I believe [01:04] JFo: yeah, like in the last version even it seems :) [01:05] yep [01:05] thats awesome [01:05] I'm guessing as to the cause though [01:05] thats twice recently the buntu kernel team has really noticably rocked the house [01:05] for me [01:05] yeah, we have recently been twiddling some settings too [01:05] JFo: i'll have to test with FW [01:06] and mark my bitchy bug [01:06] k [01:14] If the -generic is as good as -lowlatency or -rt, all that is left is to add user to audio group to be in business. Incidentally, I think on Debian this is done automatically when installing jackd. I will need to doublecheck, but if Debian can do it, why not Ubuntu? [01:15] ailo: maybe [01:15] seems like there is something trying to side step that need as well [01:16] something upstream [01:16] maybe if we just sit still long enough [01:16] eveything will just fix itself ;) [01:17] holstein: You mean not needing audio group anymore? As long as the software needs it, we need it. I'm not an expert, but I don't think we can be without it in Natty. [01:17] agreed [01:18] Don't know much about the new solution, but as far as I understand, it won't be fully implemented yet, because the software packages need to be updated [13:58] TheMuso: are you finding some time becoming available to help me get the gnome-classic default xsessions patch pushed? or should i start poking around on #ubuntu-motu? [13:58] hi JamesHarrison :) [13:59] morning abogani :) how do you and persia stand on getting the -lowlatency kernel into the repository? i believe the last thing i remember was that you were waiting for the 2.6.38 kernel? [14:00] paultag: are you still waiting for doctormo for ubuntustudio-controls? [14:00] scott-work: The -lowlatency kernel is updated and synced with -generic _but_ I doubt that it will be included into official repo. [15:04] abogani: It seems the latest -generic kernel performs about as well as the -lowlatency. Is there some caveat with the latest -generic that we don't know about? [15:09] ailo: No. [15:10] In any case I suspect that testers haven't put enough workload in their tests. [15:11] abogani: We were planning to create a test. So far nothing has been done :/. I should try get something done on that soon [15:12] However I'll be very happy to know that -lowlatency isn't still necessary. [15:12] scott-work: ^ [15:14] abogani: i infer that persia shares your concern about load and performance when contrasting -generic and -lowlatency kernels [15:17] scott-work: yeah, I'm starting to get pissed [15:19] paultag: lol, dont' stress too much. is there something i can do to help? learn glade? create a UI? fret and wring my hands? [15:19] paultag: scott-work: What's the deal with the -controls now? Seems like most features are not really needed right now [15:20] I don't know if -generic will keep being good with realtime, but if it will -lowlatency is not needed. [15:21] Audio group is the only thing absolutely needed to be in business. Restricted extras seems like a nice thing to add too [15:22] scott-work: yeah, Glade is really what's blocking. I'm going to hound his ass to get it done [15:22] ailo: humm? Not sure, but it will be good to unsuck it, at least [15:22] ailo: if I can make it pluginable then we can be set [15:22] ailo: but let's make the decision if -lowlatency is needed or not after some more testing, specifically how they perform under significant load [15:23] plugin-able sounds like a deal [15:23] then we can just add a new requirement if we need it [15:23] and the cost of maintaining it will be simple :) [15:24] but that comes *after* it's stable and working for natty [17:48] persia: I started working on a test program using puredata, to test the kernels. When adding CPU workload, the actual process doesn't really need to be processing audio, right? [17:49] As long as jack is connected to puredata, does it really matter if any sound is put through? [18:20] hey, how come ubuntustudio doesnt have a 10.04.1 ISO ? [18:46] falktx: what did you do with it? [18:47] scott-work: for 10.04 installs, so we dont have to get all the updates after a new install [18:51] falktx: i know, i was just messing with you, like you had misplaced it or something [18:52] i need help! currently the team report looks like a PR campaing for me [18:52] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamReports [18:52] er, campaign no campaing [18:52] please help me fill in things that other people have done! [18:52] use this link and update it if you did something awesome: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamReports/11/January [18:53] or even not very awesome but pretty cool :) [18:53] and if someone wanted to volunteer to become team secretary and keep up with the team report that would be uber cool to me [18:53] [18:54] i should also note that i'm working on a schedule for the team that is based on ubuntu's schedule [18:54] it will help us know when certain things are due, like team reports or alpha release notes [18:54] think of it like a play book, it tells you what to do next :) [18:55] scott-work: doctormo's pissed out on me. I'm going to have to fly solo. he gave me a big middlefinger by sending me 2-minute crap [19:58] paultag: What do you need ehlp with? [19:58] help* [20:21] I'm not getting the same latency results with the -generic as before. I wonder what has changed. It's the same kernel after all [20:24] ScottL: I don't know what's going on, but the -generic kernel is not behaving the same way as before, after some upgrades. [20:25] Because of this, I hardly see any reason to compare -generic with -lowlatency, as I am unable to achieve same latency just having jackd on. [20:26] -lowlatency gives no xruns when flooding the CPU, until CPU reaches 100% (I have 2, so both need to be maxed in order to get xruns) [20:27] So, xruns do appear after reaching 100% on all processor cores [20:28] I haven't done any dynamic testing. But, as long as -generic is not to be trusted, I don't see any reason to continue this test. [20:28] Anyway, my conclusion is that -lowlatency seems reliable and that -generic does not. [20:40] scott-upstairs: hey [21:04] that is odd [21:05] holstein: Yea. Seems like we better stick to the -lowlatency after all. [21:25] ailo, sorry, i'm at home now, left early from work to pick up kids before the freeze hits and make the overpasses dangerous [21:25] yeah, again with the freezing... [21:25] ailo, holstein, two things have happened recently in regards to the kernel that i'm aware of [21:25] holstein, lol, we're not used to it texas [21:26] ailo, first they enable the "100 line patch" and upstream was suppose to be fixing the "kernel panic" bug as well [21:26] i don't know their respective states other than i _believe_ i saw that the 100 line patch was included now, i think david henessey (not his real last name) said it was included [21:27] ScottL: I'm still on 2.6.38-1, but getting different results than before. It must be something else than the kernel that does that. [21:27] henningson, that's his last name [21:27] ailo, that wouldn't surprise me to be honest [21:28] my computer became extremely unstable when upgrading to natty, 4 out of 5 boots resulted in kernel panic [21:28] ScottL: I'm having trouble booting too [21:28] But, I'm not sure it's kernel panic [21:28] using aptitude i "upgraded" to natty, but choose not to include grub or the kernel updates and it was much more stable [21:28] Once, I got a message. Something about udevd [21:29] Allthough, the message was looped [21:29] ailo, when booting my computer would stop, most time spit unintellible (to me) text, and the two right lights on the keyboard would flash [21:29] I'm testing 2.6.38-4 on Debian. It also has some issues, but no problems booting yet on AMD64. [21:29] and i had to do a hard reboot [21:30] ailo, but earlier i had tried "upgrading" with only eliminating the kernel (meaning grub was included in the "upgrade") and i still suffered kernel panics [21:30] ScottL: Same here, hard reboot. No flashing, though. Numlock can't be toggled [21:30] So, it's Grub, then [21:32] ScottL: Last few boots have been problem free. [21:32] But, hard to say anything yet [21:33] ailo, i don't know that it's grub, but my experience would suggest that it might be part of the problem [21:33] i say this because the bug report mentioned that upstream knew of the problem and was fixing it (in the kernel) [21:33] so who knows [21:33] holstein, i had an idea i want to run by you [21:33] in a minute [21:34] sure [21:34] im around [21:34] about to interview JAG from din is noise [21:34] if we can get mumble working for him [21:34] or an alternative in general [21:35] holstein, it's about the live installer for ubuntu studio, an alternate idea for installing software [21:35] holstein, so, i we get the live installer working but can't user the tasksel anymore [21:35] holstein, we might consider making ubuntustudio-controls more pervasive to include applications installation [21:35] hear me out [21:36] i like that [21:36] before anyone jumps on me because there already is apt-get, synaptic, and software-center [21:36] the main apps could still be included on the dvd but not installed immediately [21:36] just gotta decide what the 'base' install is or should be [21:36] it would be preferable to install all the desired apps during the initial installation [21:36] thats probably where you'll get jumped on :) [21:37] but if we can't get a tasksel replacement then this is what we can do [21:37] and like the thought for controls right now, on first boot up pops up the dialogue and says, [21:37] "you havent' installed any awesome apps yet. would you like to make your computer awesome?" [21:37] but wait, that isn't hte good part [21:37] what if we made it like plugins [21:38] ScottL: I still much prefer a CD over a DVD, because of the problems with DVD. I would shrink the amount of programs installed by default, and add a list of all Multimedia programs to -controls in that case. [21:38] meaning you could select tasks to accomplish, i.e. i want to record my band or i like to make techno music [21:38] or i want to do video editing [21:38] think of this like the banks available in rakarrack [21:39] you pick the button (or buttons) that suits your desired "task" and boom! it installs all the pertinent ones [21:39] i like it [21:39] ailo, what problems do you experience with DVD? [21:39] goes along with the new metas well [21:39] and no one else is doing it [21:39] holstein, there could even be a button that says, "no thanks, i'll install my own apps by hand" [21:39] *that i know of [21:39] for the autostatic's out there :P [21:39] ScottL: DVD's are harder to burn. You burn on one system, it might not work on the next. [21:40] ScottL: yup [21:40] has to be an opt-out [21:40] And DVD's get very easily corrupted [21:40] just few thinking about moving forward and throwing out ideas to explore [21:40] it would be $$ if the live installer DVD could be a CD [21:40] but i dont think we can fit [21:40] I would prefer a very simple, but functional default installation, and maybe add a "install everything" button. [21:41] ailo, i like the idea of offering a cd but there are also some compelling reasons to have a dvd as well [21:41] we could certainly explore all the options [21:41] eh, i like this idea though [21:41] its unique [21:41] if you follow this: http://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=ubuntu+daily+build&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 [21:42] and you could have a 'podcasting' button [21:42] ScottL: A DVD is nice, if there is no internet connection. From all other aspects, a CD is better in my view [21:42] the first three hits should be for "ubuntu daily build" [21:42] that would get you the stuff from that meta [21:42] one for alternate, another for live and yet a third for a dvd full of stuff [21:42] holstein, the nice thing about this is that we don't have to use tasks or metapackages for this [21:42] of course it means we need to keep a text file with what we feel is appropriate for each task [21:43] but that is how it is like a plugin [21:43] just podcast-meta.txt file to replace or fix [21:43] ScottL: If you can provide both a CD and a DVD, that would be great [21:43] ailo, we can always ask :) [21:43] The would cover all uses [21:47] ailo, but before i ask anyone about building more images for specific reasons i would want to develop a well though to plan that provides desirable benefit to users [21:48] and maybe even have a working demo of the new "control panel" [21:48] i really don't want to go bothering people who may not take us as serious and all the "unity users" with half-baked ideas and wishes [21:49] ScottL: We have the live Ubuntu cd, of course, which works almost as well.. [21:50] ScottL: I think the ultimate solution would be to have UbuntuStudio included as a tasksel in the regular Ubuntu live CD [21:51] The most important things I find are that you get a functional base system, that is optimized for multimedia work [21:51] ailo, or you could use the "super ubuntustudio-controls" that allow you to install apps based on tasks :) [21:51] and adjust settings, i.e. adding user to audio or installing better kernel [21:53] i think we could provide better granularity for package installation if we moved away from debian "tasks" and the tasksel application [21:53] ScottL: "Tasks" are so different for everyone. Why not just focus on a base configuration, and maybe have some sort of a database with programs, where you can search for programs after function, like sequencer, sampler, video editor... [21:53] again, this is just talking outside of the box and free thinking [21:54] ailo, that is true, that could be done as well [21:54] or in substitution of what i suggested [21:54] ailo, i suppose i'm thinking of new users and trying to lower the threshold for them to become productive [21:55] if we have well defined (we're almost there) and documented (not even close) work flows that would help new user [21:55] but so would having a tick box to install those applications [21:56] ScottL: I think having at least one program for every function is enough. New users are likely to already know what is a sequencer, or what is an audio plugin. [21:56] Documentation would be great [21:57] Some sort of database for software. [21:57] ultimately i think it comes down to what we can provide given our means, i.e. are there enough talented people present who can commit ? [21:58] i'm not a coder, although i have done programming 20+ years ago [21:58] i don't think holstein is a coder [21:58] i think paultag is the only person currently onboard who can code [21:59] Because of where Ubuntu seems to be going with Unity, I think UbuntuStudio should try to keep simple, mainstream and functional [21:59] and who isn't pulled in 100 other directions :/ [21:59] those are very desirable qualities ailo :) [22:00] did you know that i kinda new what a sequencer was, but didn't really understood what it did until two days ago? [22:00] isn't that crazy :P [22:00] [lsd]'s tutorials were instrumental into getting me to feel that i had enough understanding to begin trying it [22:04] ScottL: I think for myself, I will be moving on to Debian, now that I was able to compile a lowlatency kernel for myself. For Ubuntu, I think I would rather it was much more mainstream than now. Maybe it should disregard advanced Linux users all together, and only focus on being stupid simple? [22:05] ScottL: Isn't UbuntuStudio supposed to be a Ubuntu multimedia version? [22:05] for "ubuntu" or "ubuntu studio" be more mainstream and disregard advanced users? [22:06] ubuntustudio = multimedia version? good question, i fear that no one has adequately defined ubuntu studio to say for sure what it's purpose or audience is [22:06] ScottL: For UbuntuStudio. Advanced Linux multimedia users will already know what is out there. New users will want to get working right away [22:06] although others would argue my statement [22:06] ScottL: I'll get the job done, and I'll get it done on time [22:06] ScottL: I have a plan to keep it simple and get it ready for natty [22:06] ailo, i agree, new users are probably the way to go forward [22:07] paultag, i have faith in you! [22:07] ScottL: after that, it will need some cleanup, which I'm sure ailo can help me with :) [22:07] ScottL: Rock on :) [22:07] paultag, would a sketch of what the UI might look like be helpful? with nice, descriptive comments on what should happen when a button is pushed? [22:07] i can do that [22:08] ScottL: yeah, it really would :) [22:12] paultag, this would be functional but it might not be THE UI that others might proffer or suggest or demand [22:12] ScottL: We're just trying to get anything in place for natty, so if it works, it ships! [22:13] hah, found an article on facebook when akgraner interviewed me http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=417430951545 [22:13] weird [22:13] wooo :) [22:13] paultag, i will get this to you before the end of this weekend [22:13] ScottL: for sure. I'll try to get stuff landed in place before that's done so we can push before the 28th deadline [22:15] paultag: So 28th is the final day? [22:15] ailo: that's my deadline, and I don't miss deadlines :) [22:15] ailo[Ca after that it starts to gsuckl to get stuff uploaded [22:16] goddamn this fucking lag [22:16] I type and 20 seconds later it sends. I can't even see what I'm typing. L [22:16] I'm going to bump off for a few, email'll be on [22:16] one love [22:16] paultag: What's you plan? Are you still pursuing a plugin based app? [22:16] ailo: once it's ready for natty [22:16] ailo: that's longerm. working is shortterm [22:17] paultag: Why not just focus on 3 items then, 1: audio group, 2: -lowlatency 3: restricted extras? [22:17] that's our MO at work on new designs too [22:17] get it working, no matter how ugly [22:17] then next time refine it [22:17] 1 :) [22:17] +1 * [22:18] OK, I need to bump off, my ssh connection is really lagging out [22:18] BRB. One love ya'll [22:18] hugs for paultag [22:22] abogani, You say "The -lowlatency kernel is updated and synced with -generic _but_ I doubt that it will be included into official repo.": is that because of ailo's test results, or something else? [22:23] persia: Test results seem to have differed a lot lately. -lowlatency is still in demand [22:23] (for me at least :) ) [22:24] ailo, Perhaps, but I'm not going to upload it unless abogani wants that, because I can't maintain it. [22:27] persia: Getting late here, so perhaps abogani will be able to discuss that tomorrow. I will ask him if I see him. [22:28] If you like. I suspect he'll see backscroll, and get back to me in ~9 hours in the worst case :) [22:29] ScottL: How about reducing Ubuntustudio to a single tasksel, and inject the -controls with stereoids later on? [22:45] ailo, that is a possibility but obviously we need to consider what our user want and/or need [22:46] heh, that should have been users, with an 's', plural :P [22:56] ScottL: Can't really foresee what the user needs, I think. However, there's still the distinction between Video, Graphics and Audio. My experience with the mainstream user is that he/she usually sticks to one program. One graphic editor, one Video editor, and one sequencer a la Cubase/Pro Tools/Logic [22:59] ScottL: I plan to make some time to do some other community related stuff in the next week or so, so I'll look then. [23:18] TheMuso, exciting news! thank you :) [23:18] ailo, well, we probably should address which audience we are addressing as well :P [23:18] newbies are going to need a lot of hand holding, while experienced users will already know which applications they want [23:19] perhaps there is a union between the two, perhaps not :/ [23:19] i wish there was a simple way that users could create their own special recipe to install their own apps during each new install [23:19] ScottL: Adding software is no problem for the advanced user. Advanced users will often have specific demands, and will tune their system accordingly. New users don't need much to get going. [23:20] ScottL: And, considering Ubuntu is the most mainstream distro out there (I think), it seems logical that UbuntuStudio should be that among multimedia distros [23:21] ailo, so this supports your argument for a basic install first and foremost [23:21] this could be a common base for both installs, i.e. experience users and new users [23:23] ScottL: I think it would be great if UbuntuStudio was more or less integrated into Ubuntu as a slight pimp up, without sacrificing performance. Doesn't seem logical for US to be all too specific, other than mainstream specific, in that case [23:23] All the packages are out there. And there's PPA's [23:25] ScottL: To tie things together, I feel what is missing is Documentation [23:25] If there's something sufficiently exciting in a PPA that it ought be recommended, let's get it into the repos, rather than recommending the PPAs. [23:26] ( Not recommending PPA's, just making the point, that if the user wants to add something to Ubuntu, something unusual, there is always PPA's. ) [23:29] Indeed. [23:32] like for linuxsampler ;) [23:32] ScottL: I like your idea of work flows, but I still think those should be in the form of documentation and Videos. Would be best to focus on a few programs. [23:32] there is incredible potential to make things wonderful for ubuntu studio, i truly believe that [23:33] and i think that it is also possible to maximize it's potential while keeping the maintenance acceptable and sustainable [23:33] i've started thinking about establishing things so that other people could continue the work [23:33] this isn't to imply there's an immediate threat of my leaving, mind you [23:34] but i think it would irresponsible of me to think otherwise though [23:36] [23:37] i think it would be cool if you could open ubuntustudio-controls and push the button that says "Save your Installed applications" [23:37] you put in your usb stick, push the button, and it saves a list of all the currently install A/V/G applications [23:38] then when you have to reinstall ubuntu studio you insert your USB, start ubuntustudio-controls, and push the button that says "install my saved applications" [23:38] which then does as advertised [23:38] thoughts? [23:40] ScottL: A form of configuration backup? [23:43] ailo, kinda, yeah, but think of it as a transport to install your setup on a different machine or new installation [23:43] couple this with starting with a simplified base install [23:44] the new users can select pre-packaged or "canned" setups to install ("record my band" "make techno music" "edit video footage", etc) [23:44] experienced users can get their setup in minutes with little fuss with the usb dump [23:45] again, they're just saving a list of the audio/visual/graphic applications they ahve installed [23:45] which then is used to re-install them on a new machine/installation [23:45] ScottL: "canned" setups is something that you'll see a lot in Mac, with Logic and Garageband [23:45] but that is probably what new users will need [23:46] i know i would have liked that when i first started [23:46] someone to do the "thinking" for you so you can learn how to use it all [23:46] ScottL: Premixed sessions, you just add vocals and make some beats to a rap song. That type of thing [23:46] ailo, not really, i mean for package selections [23:47] if a new user starts with a simplified base installation then that user probably needs help understanding which applications that need to be installed [23:47] even our tasksel during the alternate installation leaves something to be desired in terms of explanation [23:48] and is grossly expansive [23:48] but if a new user doesn't understand ubuntu but wants to try ubuntu studio then think if he installs it... [23:48] and -controls pops up on first log in and asks if he wants to install some applications [23:49] with very simplified and devoted "tasks" [23:49] not just "install some audio applications" and then overload the menu with them [23:49] and the user doesn't have any idea what to use or if they even all need to be used just to record his/her guitar [23:49] again, just freethinking and welcome comments, criticism [23:50] ScottL: Linux, I suppose lends itself perfectly for adding abstractions outside of applications. [23:51] it may have been my nature (i need to have an idea of what to expect before i do something) but i found linux and ubuntu absolutely frustrating when i started [23:51] i just wanted someone to tell HOW i should do something, but all i got was MANY ways to do it [23:52] when you're new to linux, or PC based DAWs or even recording music...it's just too much [23:52] just tell me how to accomplish what i want to do...do the "thinking" for me [23:52] once you get that under your belt and you have a more basic understanding of the fundementals, then you can branch out and learn other methods [23:53] ScottL: First of all you need applications that already can do that, I think. Garageband is a perfect example of that on Mac. [23:53] I think Qtractor is a nice simple sequencer for the layman [23:54] But for the hobbyist, I don't know [23:54] Ardour is great, but there [23:54] there's no midi [23:54] Yet [23:55] For an audio layman, what you need is a program that can load instruments, effects and where you can easily record vocals and maybe a guitar [23:56] but i'm not advocating a single setup for everything, there could be many options in -controls that could be assessed at any time, selected, and installed [23:56] so when you first start, you want to record your guitar...you pick that and install gtick, jack, audacity and learn to use those [23:57] later when you move on and you want to record your whole band, you open -controls again, select "record my band" and ardour installs [23:57] jackd was already installed [23:57] For the layman, it would be best if jack was in the background [23:57] lol, don't get bogged down in the details, just flow with the ideas ;) [23:58] conceptually