[01:01] <holstein> ailo: performance is similar right?
[01:02] <holstein> i bet this kernel issue is about to just take care of itself
[01:02]  * holstein crosses fingers
[01:02] <ailo> holstein: what kernel issua?
[01:02] <holstein> well, our kernel issue
[01:02] <holstein> the US need for -lowlatency or -rt
[01:03] <ailo> holstein: I found the latest -generic to have exactly as low latency as -lowlatency, but didn't do extensive testing
[01:03] <ailo> After another look, -generic does not seem to have the same preempt configurations, so I wonder how it works :/
[01:03] <holstein> you could ask JFo 
[01:03] <holstein> maybe he would know that
[01:04] <holstein> BUT thats great news on performance
[01:04] <holstein> i know thats where we are heading
[01:04] <holstein> and im cool with it
[01:04] <holstein> i need to check it with FW
[01:04] <JFo> there have been a number of improvements to performance from upstream
[01:04] <ailo> I couldn't believe it at first. Yea, you should check your with your fw :)
[01:04] <JFo> it is part of the effort to move -rt into the kernel I believe
[01:04] <holstein> JFo: yeah, like in the last version even it seems :)
[01:05] <JFo> yep
[01:05] <holstein> thats awesome
[01:05] <JFo> I'm guessing as to the cause though
[01:05] <holstein> thats twice recently the buntu kernel team has really noticably rocked the house
[01:05] <holstein> for me
[01:05] <JFo> yeah, we have recently been twiddling some settings too
[01:05] <holstein> JFo: i'll have to test with FW
[01:06] <holstein> and mark my bitchy bug
[01:06] <JFo> k
[01:14] <ailo> If the -generic is as good as -lowlatency or -rt, all that is left is to add user to audio group to be in business. Incidentally, I think on Debian this is done automatically when installing jackd. I will need to doublecheck, but if Debian can do it, why not Ubuntu?
[01:15] <holstein> ailo: maybe
[01:15] <holstein> seems like there is something trying to side step that need as well
[01:16] <holstein> something upstream
[01:16] <holstein> maybe if we just sit still long enough
[01:16] <holstein> eveything will just fix itself ;)
[01:17] <ailo> holstein: You mean not needing audio group anymore? As long as the software needs it, we need it. I'm not an expert, but I don't think we can be without it in Natty.
[01:17] <holstein> agreed
[01:18] <ailo> Don't know much about the new solution, but as far as I understand, it won't be fully implemented yet, because the software packages need to be updated
[13:58] <scott-work> TheMuso: are you finding some time becoming available to help me get the gnome-classic default xsessions patch pushed?  or should i start poking around on #ubuntu-motu?
[13:58] <scott-work> hi JamesHarrison  :)
[13:59] <scott-work> morning abogani  :)   how do you and persia stand on getting the -lowlatency kernel into the repository?  i believe the last thing i remember was that you were waiting for the 2.6.38 kernel?
[14:00] <scott-work> paultag:  are you still waiting for doctormo for ubuntustudio-controls?
[14:00] <abogani> scott-work: The -lowlatency kernel is updated and synced with -generic _but_ I doubt that it will be included into official repo.
[15:04] <ailo> abogani: It seems the latest -generic kernel performs about as well as the -lowlatency. Is there some caveat with the latest -generic that we don't know about?
[15:09] <abogani> ailo: No.
[15:10] <abogani> In any case I suspect that testers haven't put enough workload in their tests.
[15:11] <ailo> abogani: We were planning to create a test. So far nothing has been done :/. I should try get something done on that soon
[15:12] <abogani> However I'll be very happy to know that -lowlatency isn't still necessary.
[15:12] <abogani> scott-work:  ^
[15:14] <scott-work> abogani: i infer that persia shares your concern about load and performance when contrasting -generic and -lowlatency kernels
[15:17] <paultag> scott-work: yeah, I'm starting to get pissed
[15:19] <scott-work> paultag: lol, dont' stress too much.  is there something i can do to help?  learn glade?  create a UI? fret and wring my hands?
[15:19] <ailo> paultag: scott-work: What's the deal with the -controls now? Seems like most features are not really needed right now
[15:20] <ailo> I don't know if -generic will keep being good with realtime, but if it will -lowlatency is not needed.
[15:21] <ailo> Audio group is the only thing absolutely needed to be in business. Restricted extras seems like a nice thing to add too
[15:22] <paultag> scott-work: yeah, Glade is really what's blocking. I'm going to hound his ass to get it done
[15:22] <paultag> ailo: humm? Not sure, but it will be good to unsuck it, at least
[15:22] <paultag> ailo: if I can make it pluginable then we can be set
[15:22] <scott-work> ailo: but let's make the decision if -lowlatency is needed or not after some more testing, specifically how they perform under significant load
[15:23] <ailo> plugin-able sounds like a deal
[15:23] <paultag> then we can just add a new requirement if we need it
[15:23] <paultag> and the cost of maintaining it will be simple :)
[15:24] <paultag> but that comes *after* it's stable and working for natty
[17:48] <ailo> persia: I started working on a test program using puredata, to test the kernels. When adding CPU workload, the actual process doesn't really need to be processing audio, right?
[17:49] <ailo> As long as jack is connected to puredata, does it really matter if any sound is put through?
[18:20] <falktx> hey, how come ubuntustudio doesnt have a 10.04.1 ISO ?
[18:46] <scott-work> falktx: what did you do with it?
[18:47] <falktx> scott-work: for 10.04 installs, so we dont have to get all the updates after a new install
[18:51] <scott-work> falktx: i know, i was just messing with you, like you had misplaced it or something
[18:52] <scott-work> i need help!  currently the team report looks like a PR campaing for me
[18:52] <scott-work> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamReports
[18:52] <scott-work> er, campaign no campaing
[18:52] <scott-work> please help me fill in things that other people have done!
[18:52] <scott-work> use this link and update it if you did something awesome:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamReports/11/January
[18:53] <scott-work> or even not very awesome but pretty cool :)
[18:53] <scott-work> and if someone wanted to volunteer to become team secretary and keep up with the team report that would be uber cool to me
[18:53] <scott-work>  
[18:54] <scott-work> i should also note that i'm working on a schedule for the team that is based on ubuntu's schedule
[18:54] <scott-work> it will help us know when certain things are due, like team reports or alpha release notes
[18:54] <scott-work> think of it like a play book, it tells you what to do next :)
[18:55] <paultag> scott-work: doctormo's pissed out on me. I'm going to have to fly solo. he gave me a big middlefinger by sending me 2-minute crap
[19:58] <ailo> paultag: What do you need ehlp with?
[19:58] <ailo> help*
[20:21] <ailo> I'm not getting the same latency results with the -generic as before. I wonder what has changed. It's the same kernel after all
[20:24] <ailo> ScottL: I don't know what's going on, but the -generic kernel is not behaving the same way as before, after some upgrades.
[20:25] <ailo> Because of this, I hardly see any reason to compare -generic with -lowlatency, as I am unable to achieve same latency just having jackd on.
[20:26] <ailo> -lowlatency gives no xruns when flooding the CPU, until CPU reaches 100% (I have 2, so both need to be maxed in order to get xruns)
[20:27] <ailo> So, xruns do appear after reaching 100% on all processor cores
[20:28] <ailo> I haven't done any dynamic testing. But, as long as -generic is not to be trusted, I don't see any reason to continue this test.
[20:28] <ailo> Anyway, my conclusion is that -lowlatency seems reliable and that -generic does not.
[20:40] <ailo> scott-upstairs: hey
[21:04] <holstein> that is odd
[21:05] <ailo> holstein: Yea. Seems like we better stick to the -lowlatency after all.
[21:25] <ScottL> ailo, sorry, i'm at home now, left early from work to pick up kids before the freeze hits and make the overpasses dangerous
[21:25] <holstein> yeah, again with the freezing...
[21:25] <ScottL> ailo, holstein, two things have happened recently in regards to the kernel that i'm aware of
[21:25] <ScottL> holstein, lol, we're not used to it texas
[21:26] <ScottL> ailo, first they enable the "100 line patch" and upstream was suppose to be fixing the "kernel panic" bug as well
[21:26] <ScottL> i don't know their respective states other than i _believe_ i saw that the 100 line patch was included now, i think david henessey (not his real last name) said it was included
[21:27] <ailo> ScottL: I'm still on 2.6.38-1, but getting different results than before. It must be something else than the kernel that does that.
[21:27] <ScottL> henningson, that's his last name
[21:27] <ScottL> ailo, that wouldn't surprise me to be honest
[21:28] <ScottL> my computer became extremely unstable when upgrading to natty, 4 out of 5 boots resulted in kernel panic
[21:28] <ailo> ScottL: I'm having trouble booting too
[21:28] <ailo> But, I'm not sure it's kernel panic
[21:28] <ScottL> using aptitude i "upgraded" to natty, but choose not to include grub or the kernel updates and it was much more stable
[21:28] <ailo> Once, I got a message. Something about udevd
[21:29] <ailo> Allthough, the message was looped
[21:29] <ScottL> ailo, when booting my computer would stop, most time spit unintellible (to me) text, and the two right lights on the keyboard would flash
[21:29] <ailo> I'm testing 2.6.38-4 on Debian. It also has some issues, but no problems booting yet on AMD64.
[21:29] <ScottL> and i had to do a hard reboot
[21:30] <ScottL> ailo, but earlier i had tried "upgrading" with only eliminating the kernel (meaning grub was included in the "upgrade") and i still suffered kernel panics
[21:30] <ailo> ScottL: Same here, hard reboot. No flashing, though. Numlock can't be toggled
[21:30] <ailo> So, it's Grub, then
[21:32] <ailo> ScottL: Last few boots have been problem free.
[21:32] <ailo> But, hard to say anything yet
[21:33] <ScottL> ailo, i don't know that it's grub, but my experience would suggest that it might be part of the problem
[21:33] <ScottL> i say this because the bug report mentioned that upstream knew of the problem and was fixing it (in the kernel)
[21:33] <ScottL> so who knows
[21:33] <ScottL> holstein, i had an idea i want to run by you
[21:33] <ScottL> in a minute
[21:34] <holstein> sure
[21:34] <holstein> im around
[21:34] <holstein> about to interview JAG from din is noise
[21:34] <holstein> if we can get mumble working for him
[21:34] <holstein> or an alternative in general
[21:35] <ScottL> holstein, it's about the live installer for ubuntu studio, an alternate idea for installing software
[21:35] <ScottL> holstein, so, i we get the live installer working but can't user the tasksel anymore
[21:35] <ScottL> holstein, we might consider making ubuntustudio-controls more pervasive to include applications installation
[21:35] <ScottL> hear me out
[21:36] <holstein> i like that
[21:36] <ScottL> before anyone jumps on me because there already is apt-get, synaptic, and software-center
[21:36] <ScottL> the main apps could still be included on the dvd but not installed immediately
[21:36] <holstein> just gotta decide what the 'base' install is or should be
[21:36] <ScottL> it would be preferable to install all the desired apps during the initial installation
[21:36] <holstein> thats probably where you'll get jumped on :)
[21:37] <ScottL> but if we can't get a tasksel replacement then this is what we can do
[21:37] <ScottL> and like the thought for controls right now, on first boot up pops up the dialogue and says,
[21:37] <ScottL> "you havent' installed any awesome apps yet.  would you like to make your computer awesome?"
[21:37] <ScottL> but wait, that isn't hte good part
[21:37] <ScottL> what if we made it like plugins
[21:38] <ailo> ScottL: I still much prefer a CD over a DVD, because of the problems with DVD. I would shrink the amount of programs installed by default, and add a list of all Multimedia programs to -controls in that case.
[21:38] <ScottL> meaning you could select tasks to accomplish, i.e. i want to record my band or i like to make techno music
[21:38] <ScottL> or i want to do video editing
[21:38] <ScottL> think of this like the banks available in rakarrack
[21:39] <ScottL> you pick the button (or buttons) that suits your desired "task" and boom! it installs all the pertinent ones
[21:39] <holstein> i like it
[21:39] <ScottL> ailo, what problems do you experience with DVD?
[21:39] <holstein> goes along with the new metas well
[21:39] <holstein> and no one else is doing it
[21:39] <ScottL> holstein, there could even be a button that says, "no thanks, i'll install my own apps by hand"
[21:39] <holstein> *that i know of
[21:39] <ScottL> for the autostatic's out there :P
[21:39] <ailo> ScottL: DVD's are harder to burn. You burn on one system, it might not work on the next. 
[21:40] <holstein> ScottL: yup
[21:40] <holstein> has to be an opt-out
[21:40] <ailo> And DVD's get very easily corrupted
[21:40] <ScottL> just few thinking about moving forward and throwing out ideas to explore
[21:40] <holstein> it would be $$ if the live installer DVD could be a CD
[21:40] <holstein> but i dont think we can fit
[21:40] <ailo> I would prefer a very simple, but functional default installation, and maybe add a "install everything" button.
[21:41] <ScottL> ailo, i like the idea of offering a cd but there are also some compelling reasons to have a dvd as well
[21:41] <ScottL> we could certainly explore all the options
[21:41] <holstein> eh, i like this idea though
[21:41] <holstein> its unique
[21:41] <ScottL> if you follow this:  http://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=ubuntu+daily+build&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
[21:42] <holstein> and you could have a 'podcasting' button
[21:42] <ailo> ScottL: A DVD is nice, if there is no internet connection. From all other aspects, a CD is better in my view
[21:42] <ScottL> the first three hits should be for "ubuntu daily build"
[21:42] <holstein> that would get you the stuff from that meta
[21:42] <ScottL> one for alternate, another for live and yet a third for a dvd full of stuff
[21:42] <ScottL> holstein, the nice thing about this is that we don't have to use tasks or metapackages for this
[21:42] <ScottL> of course it means we need to keep a text file with what we feel is appropriate for each task
[21:43] <ScottL> but that is how it is like a plugin
[21:43] <ScottL> just podcast-meta.txt file to replace or fix
[21:43] <ailo> ScottL: If you can provide both a CD and a DVD, that would be great
[21:43] <ScottL> ailo, we can always ask :)
[21:43] <ailo> The would cover all uses
[21:47] <ScottL> ailo, but before i ask anyone about building more images for specific reasons i would want to develop a well though to plan that provides desirable benefit to users
[21:48] <ScottL> and maybe even have a working demo of the new "control panel"
[21:48] <ScottL> i really don't want to go bothering people who may not take us as serious and all the "unity users" with half-baked ideas and wishes
[21:49] <ailo> ScottL: We have the live Ubuntu cd, of course, which works almost as well..
[21:50] <ailo> ScottL: I think the ultimate solution would be to have UbuntuStudio included as a tasksel in the regular Ubuntu live CD
[21:51] <ailo> The most important things I find are that you get a functional base system, that is optimized for multimedia work
[21:51] <ScottL> ailo, or you could use the "super ubuntustudio-controls" that allow you to install apps based on tasks :)
[21:51] <ScottL> and adjust settings, i.e. adding user to audio or installing better kernel
[21:53] <ScottL> i think we could provide better granularity for package installation if we moved away from debian "tasks" and the tasksel application
[21:53] <ailo> ScottL: "Tasks" are so different for everyone. Why not just focus on a base configuration, and maybe have some sort of a database with programs, where you can search for programs after function, like sequencer, sampler, video editor...
[21:53] <ScottL> again, this is just talking outside of the box and free thinking
[21:54] <ScottL> ailo, that is true, that could be done as well
[21:54] <ScottL> or in substitution of what i suggested
[21:54] <ScottL> ailo, i suppose i'm thinking of new users and trying to lower the threshold for them to become productive
[21:55] <ScottL> if we have well defined (we're almost there) and documented (not even close) work flows that would help new user
[21:55] <ScottL> but so would having a tick box to install those applications 
[21:56] <ailo> ScottL: I think having at least one program for every function is enough. New users are likely to already know what is a sequencer, or what is an audio plugin. 
[21:56] <ailo> Documentation would be great
[21:57] <ailo> Some sort of database for software.
[21:57] <ScottL> ultimately i think it comes down to what we can provide given our means, i.e. are there enough talented people present who can commit ?
[21:58] <ScottL> i'm not a coder, although i have done programming 20+ years ago
[21:58] <ScottL> i don't think holstein is a coder
[21:58] <ScottL> i think paultag is the only person currently onboard who can code
[21:59] <ailo> Because of where Ubuntu seems to be going with Unity, I think UbuntuStudio should try to keep simple, mainstream and functional
[21:59] <ScottL> and who isn't pulled in 100 other directions :/
[21:59] <ScottL> those are very desirable qualities ailo  :)
[22:00] <ScottL> did you know that i kinda new what a sequencer was, but didn't really understood what it did until two days ago?
[22:00] <ScottL> isn't that crazy :P
[22:00] <ScottL> [lsd]'s tutorials were instrumental into getting me to feel that i had enough understanding to begin trying it
[22:04] <ailo> ScottL: I think for myself, I will be moving on to Debian, now that I was able to compile a lowlatency kernel for myself. For Ubuntu, I think I would rather it was much more mainstream than now. Maybe it should disregard advanced Linux users all together, and only focus on being stupid simple?
[22:05] <ailo> ScottL: Isn't UbuntuStudio supposed to be a Ubuntu multimedia version?
[22:05] <ScottL> for "ubuntu" or "ubuntu studio" be more mainstream and disregard advanced users?
[22:06] <ScottL> ubuntustudio = multimedia version?  good question, i fear that no one has adequately defined ubuntu studio to say for sure what it's purpose or audience is
[22:06] <ailo> ScottL: For UbuntuStudio. Advanced Linux multimedia users will already know what is out there. New users will want to get working right away
[22:06] <ScottL> although others would argue my statement
[22:06] <paultag> ScottL: I'll get the job done, and I'll get it done on time
[22:06] <paultag> ScottL: I have a plan to keep it simple and get it ready for natty
[22:06] <ScottL> ailo, i agree, new users are probably the way to go forward
[22:07] <ScottL> paultag, i have faith in you!
[22:07] <paultag> ScottL: after that, it will need some cleanup, which I'm sure ailo can help me with :)
[22:07] <paultag> ScottL: Rock on :)
[22:07] <ScottL> paultag, would a sketch of what the UI might look like be helpful?  with nice, descriptive comments on what should happen when a button is pushed?
[22:07] <ScottL> i can do that
[22:08] <paultag> ScottL: yeah, it really would :)
[22:12] <ScottL> paultag, this would be functional but it might not be THE UI that others might proffer or suggest or demand
[22:12] <paultag> ScottL: We're just trying to get anything in place for natty, so if it works, it ships!
[22:13] <ScottL> hah, found an article on facebook when akgraner interviewed me  http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=417430951545
[22:13] <ScottL> weird
[22:13] <paultag> wooo :)
[22:13] <ScottL> paultag, i will get this to you before the end of this weekend
[22:13] <paultag> ScottL: for sure. I'll try to get stuff landed in place before that's done so we can push before the 28th deadline
[22:15] <ailo> paultag: So 28th is the final day?
[22:15] <paultag> ailo: that's my deadline, and I don't miss deadlines :)
[22:15] <paultag> ailo[Ca	after that it starts to gsuckl to get stuff uploaded
[22:16] <paultag> goddamn this fucking lag
[22:16] <paultag> I type and 20 seconds later it sends. I can't even see what I'm typing. L
[22:16] <paultag> I'm going to bump off for a few, email'll be on
[22:16] <paultag> one love
[22:16] <ailo> paultag: What's you plan? Are you still pursuing a plugin based app?
[22:16] <paultag> ailo: once it's ready for natty
[22:16] <paultag> ailo: that's longerm. working is shortterm
[22:17] <ailo> paultag: Why not just focus on 3 items then, 1: audio group, 2: -lowlatency 3: restricted extras?
[22:17] <ScottL> that's our MO at work on new designs too
[22:17] <ScottL> get it working, no matter how ugly
[22:17] <ScottL> then next time refine it
[22:17] <paultag> 1 :)
[22:17] <paultag> +1 *
[22:18] <paultag> OK, I need to bump off, my ssh connection is really lagging out
[22:18] <paultag> BRB. One love ya'll
[22:18] <ScottL> hugs for paultag 
[22:22] <persia> abogani, You say "The -lowlatency kernel is updated and synced with -generic _but_ I doubt that it will be included into official repo.": is that because of ailo's test results, or something else?
[22:23] <ailo> persia: Test results seem to have differed a lot lately. -lowlatency is still in demand
[22:23] <ailo> (for me at least :) )
[22:24] <persia> ailo, Perhaps, but I'm not going to upload it unless abogani wants that, because I can't maintain it.
[22:27] <ailo> persia: Getting late here, so perhaps abogani will be able to discuss that tomorrow. I will ask him if I see him.
[22:28] <persia> If you like.  I suspect he'll see backscroll, and get back to me in ~9 hours in the worst case :)
[22:29] <ailo> ScottL: How about reducing Ubuntustudio to a single tasksel, and inject the -controls with stereoids later on?
[22:45] <ScottL> ailo, that is a possibility but obviously we need to consider what our user want and/or need
[22:46] <ScottL> heh, that should have been users, with an 's', plural :P
[22:56] <ailo> ScottL: Can't really foresee what the user needs, I think. However, there's still the distinction between Video, Graphics and Audio. My experience with the mainstream user is that he/she usually sticks to one program. One graphic editor, one Video editor, and one sequencer a la Cubase/Pro Tools/Logic 
[22:59] <TheMuso> ScottL: I plan to make some time to do some other community related stuff in the next week or so, so I'll look then.
[23:18] <ScottL> TheMuso, exciting news!  thank you :)
[23:18] <ScottL> ailo, well, we probably should address which audience we are addressing as well :P
[23:18] <ScottL> newbies are going to need a lot of hand holding, while experienced users will already know which applications they want
[23:19] <ScottL> perhaps there is a union between the two, perhaps not :/
[23:19] <ScottL> i wish there was a simple way that users could create their own special recipe to install their own apps during each new install
[23:19] <ailo> ScottL: Adding software is no problem for the advanced user. Advanced users will often have specific demands, and will tune their system accordingly. New users don't need much to get going.
[23:20] <ailo> ScottL: And, considering Ubuntu is the most mainstream distro out there (I think), it seems logical that UbuntuStudio should be that among multimedia distros
[23:21] <ScottL> ailo, so this supports your argument for a basic install first and foremost
[23:21] <ScottL> this could be a common base for both installs, i.e. experience users and new users
[23:23] <ailo> ScottL: I think it would be great if UbuntuStudio was more or less integrated into Ubuntu as a slight pimp up, without sacrificing performance. Doesn't seem logical for US to be all too specific, other than mainstream specific, in that case
[23:23] <ailo> All the packages are out there. And there's PPA's
[23:25] <ailo> ScottL: To tie things together, I feel what is missing is Documentation
[23:25] <persia> If there's something sufficiently exciting in a PPA that it ought be recommended, let's get it into the repos, rather than recommending the PPAs.
[23:26] <ailo> ( Not recommending PPA's, just making the point, that if the user wants to add something to Ubuntu, something unusual, there is always PPA's. )
[23:29] <persia> Indeed.
[23:32] <ScottL> like for linuxsampler ;)
[23:32] <ailo> ScottL: I like your idea of work flows, but I still think those should be in the form of documentation and Videos. Would be best to focus on a few programs. 
[23:32] <ScottL> there is incredible potential to make things wonderful for ubuntu studio, i truly believe that
[23:33] <ScottL> and i think that it is also possible to maximize it's potential while keeping the maintenance acceptable and sustainable
[23:33] <ScottL> i've started thinking about establishing things so that other people could continue the work
[23:33] <ScottL> this isn't to imply there's an immediate threat of my leaving, mind you
[23:34] <ScottL> but i think it would irresponsible of me to think otherwise though
[23:36] <ScottL>  
[23:37] <ScottL> i think it would be cool if you could open ubuntustudio-controls and push the button that says "Save your Installed applications"
[23:37] <ScottL> you put in your usb stick, push the button, and it saves a list of all the currently install A/V/G applications
[23:38] <ScottL> then when you have to reinstall ubuntu studio you insert your USB, start ubuntustudio-controls, and push the button that says "install my saved applications"
[23:38] <ScottL> which then does as advertised
[23:38] <ScottL> thoughts?
[23:40] <ailo> ScottL: A form of configuration backup?
[23:43] <ScottL> ailo, kinda, yeah, but think of it as a transport to install your setup on a different machine or new installation
[23:43] <ScottL> couple this with starting with a simplified base install
[23:44] <ScottL> the new users can select pre-packaged or "canned" setups to install ("record my band" "make techno music" "edit video footage", etc)
[23:44] <ScottL> experienced users can get their setup in minutes with little fuss with the usb dump
[23:45] <ScottL> again, they're just saving a list of the audio/visual/graphic applications they ahve installed
[23:45] <ScottL> which then is used to re-install them on a new machine/installation
[23:45] <ailo> ScottL: "canned" setups is something that you'll see a lot in Mac, with Logic and Garageband
[23:45] <ScottL> but that is probably what new users will need
[23:46] <ScottL> i know i would have liked that when i first started
[23:46] <ScottL> someone to do the "thinking" for you so you can learn how to use it all
[23:46] <ailo> ScottL: Premixed sessions, you just add vocals and make some beats to a rap song. That type of thing
[23:46] <ScottL> ailo, not really, i mean for package selections
[23:47] <ScottL> if a new user starts with a simplified base installation then that user probably needs help understanding which applications that need to be installed
[23:47] <ScottL> even our tasksel during the alternate installation leaves something to be desired in terms of explanation
[23:48] <ScottL> and is grossly expansive
[23:48] <ScottL> but if a new user doesn't understand ubuntu but wants to try ubuntu studio then think if he installs it...
[23:48] <ScottL> and -controls pops up on first log in and asks if he wants to install some applications
[23:49] <ScottL> with very simplified and devoted "tasks"
[23:49] <ScottL> not just "install some audio applications" and then overload the menu with them
[23:49] <ScottL> and the user doesn't have any idea what to use or if they even all need to be used just to record his/her guitar
[23:49] <ScottL> again, just freethinking and welcome comments, criticism
[23:50] <ailo> ScottL: Linux, I suppose lends itself perfectly for adding abstractions outside of applications. 
[23:51] <ScottL> it may have been my nature (i need to have an idea of what to expect before i do something) but i found linux and ubuntu absolutely frustrating when i started
[23:51] <ScottL> i just wanted someone to tell HOW i should do something, but all i got was MANY ways to do it
[23:52] <ScottL> when you're new to linux, or PC based DAWs or even recording music...it's just too much
[23:52] <ScottL> just tell me how to accomplish what i want to do...do the "thinking" for me
[23:52] <ScottL> once you get that under your belt and you have a more basic understanding of the fundementals, then you can branch out and learn other methods
[23:53] <ailo> ScottL: First of all you need applications that already can do that, I think. Garageband is a perfect example of that on Mac.
[23:53] <ailo> I think Qtractor is a nice simple sequencer for the layman
[23:54] <ailo> But for the hobbyist, I don't know
[23:54] <ailo> Ardour is great, but there
[23:54] <ailo> there's no midi
[23:54] <ailo> Yet
[23:55] <ailo> For an audio layman, what you need is a program that can load instruments, effects and where you can easily record vocals and maybe a guitar
[23:56] <ScottL> but i'm not advocating a single setup for everything, there could be many options in -controls that could be assessed at any time, selected, and installed
[23:56] <ScottL> so when you first start, you want to record your guitar...you pick that and install gtick, jack, audacity and learn to use those
[23:57] <ScottL> later when you move on and you want to record your whole band, you open -controls again, select "record my band" and ardour installs
[23:57] <ScottL> jackd was already installed
[23:57] <ailo> For the layman, it would be best if jack was in the background
[23:57] <ScottL> lol, don't get bogged down in the details, just flow with the ideas ;)
[23:58] <ScottL> conceptually