[13:51] <ogra> foopl
[15:00] <NCommander> #startmeeting
[15:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 09:00. The chair is NCommander.
[15:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[15:00]  * rsalveti waves
[15:00] <NCommander> good morning world
[15:00] <janimo> hello
[15:00] <NCommander> who's here?
[15:01] <ogra> froop
[15:01]  * NCommander smacks the wiki
[15:01] <NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/20110210
[15:01] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/20110210
[15:01] <NCommander> [topic] Action Item Review
[15:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item Review
[15:01] <NCommander> [topic] NCommander to talk to the release team on which team to track w.r.t. to bugs (co)
[15:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to talk to the release team on which team to track w.r.t. to bugs (co)
[15:01] <NCommander> co again
[15:02] <NCommander> [topic] Standing Items
[15:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Standing Items
[15:02] <NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel.html
[15:02] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel.html
[15:02] <NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-natty-alpha-3.html
[15:02] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-natty-alpha-3.html
[15:02]  * NCommander closed two work items today :-)
[15:02] <NCommander> and started work on modifying f-k to use archdetect
[15:03]  * NCommander pokes everyone else
[15:04] <NCommander> no one else has any comments?
[15:04]  * janimo works on updating  bootfiles
[15:04] <janimo> I'll close some WIs soon
[15:04] <ogra> i dont think archdetect will get you anywhere
[15:04] <ogra> what you want is persias new detection tool
[15:04] <ogra> thats why more precise
[15:04] <ogra> *way
[15:04] <persia> It's *too* precise.
[15:05] <persia> f-k should install the same kernel on multiple devices when the kernel supports multiple devices.
[15:05] <persia> archdetect is the right way to do this.
[15:05] <ogra> hmm, k
[15:05] <ogra> who is testing that and how ?
[15:05] <NCommander> ogra: well, first it needs to exist to be tested :-)
[15:06] <ogra> we only have omap for that but not the devices
[15:06] <ogra> unless anyone has an igep2
[15:06] <ogra> or gumstix that works
[15:06] <persia> Send out a call for testing.  There's plenty of folk with igep2 around.
[15:06] <persia> Doesn't gumstix have an MMC issue?
[15:06] <ogra> should be in the testing plan
[15:06] <ogra> i dont know if all of them do
[15:06] <ogra> mine surely does
[15:07] <ogra> s/does/did in lucid/
[15:07] <persia> lucid is an old kernel :p  Try again
[15:07] <ogra> anyway, jasper rewrite has to wait until i'm done with unity-2d .... there are updates in the queue
[15:08] <davidm> ogra, how many are there?
[15:08] <ogra> my other specs arent FF relevant
[15:08] <ogra> davidm, all of it
[15:08] <ogra> davidm, i'll talk about it in the unity-2d topic
[15:08] <davidm> Ah OK
[15:09] <NCommander> [topic] Unity 2D Status
[15:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  Unity 2D Status
[15:09] <ogra> hehe
[15:09] <NCommander> ogra: your time is now :-)
[15:09] <ogra> so i had a call with Kaleo today
[15:09] <ogra> to sync up
[15:09] <ogra> they have 3.4 ready
[15:10] <ogra> i'm holind that back until the already reviewed packages are in main
[15:10] <ogra> which should happen before end of the week
[15:10] <ogra> *holding
[15:10] <ogra> (since i dont want everything to be reviewed again)
[15:10] <ogra> (by MIR team)
[15:10] <ogra> there are two metacity patches we need
[15:11] <ogra> both have been reviwed by me and desktop team
[15:11] <ogra> one of them needs fixes from bfiller
[15:11] <ogra> if these patches are in and the packages are in main i'll care for the 3.4 update
[15:11] <ogra> right before FF we will get 3.8
[15:12] <ogra> (not sure if i will upload 3.6 specifically during next week)
[15:12] <davidm> ogra, that makes sense
[15:12] <ogra> the unity-2d team has a policy that features are not to have bugs
[15:12] <ogra> so they are under more pressure than us here wrt FF
[15:13] <ogra> i'll likely be busy while in cambridge :)
[15:13] <ogra> doing their package upgrades
[15:13] <ogra> well, thats it
[15:13] <ogra> ..
[15:14] <ogra> questions ?
[15:14] <ogra> else move
[15:14] <NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, rsalveti)
[15:14] <MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney, rsalveti)
[15:14] <rsalveti> for omap 3 we got the new update from 38-rc4
[15:15] <rsalveti> should work the same way as before
[15:15] <rsalveti> did some tests around here and it seems to be quite stable
[15:15] <rsalveti> GrueMaster: how are your omap 3 testing going?
[15:15] <rsalveti> we need to test sound, s-video, usb-otg
[15:15] <janimo> I filed bug to drop versatile from kernel (only indirectly affects us now by having shorter build time)
[15:16] <ogra> did anyone test rootstock yet ?
[15:16] <GrueMaster> I was focusing on unity-2d testing yesterday.  Will test with new image today.
[15:16] <persia> Does the current qemu support omap well enough already?
[15:16] <rsalveti> janimo: cool, sounds a good timing, as everybody is testing the omap 3 kernel
[15:16] <rsalveti> ogra: have that on may todo list
[15:16] <ogra> great
[15:16] <GrueMaster> I have no way to test s-video.
[15:16] <rsalveti> persia: yup, linaro is using on their tools
[15:16] <ogra> persia, yes
[15:16] <rsalveti> GrueMaster: ok, I believe I can test the s-video output here
[15:17] <rsalveti> omap 4 kernel got some more stable updates, but still no release
[15:17] <ogra> we have a ppa kernel
[15:17] <rsalveti> we had the kernel discussion this week
[15:17] <ogra> that waits for testing
[15:17] <rsalveti> to have a 38
[15:17] <rsalveti> yup, ppa https://launchpad.net/~canonical-kernel-team/+archive/ppa
[15:17] <GrueMaster> ogra: I haven't seen any notification of anything that needs testing.
[15:17] <rsalveti> this is from the ti-omap4-dev branch, at the natty's kernel
[15:17] <ogra> GrueMaster, two lines above :)
[15:18] <ogra> that kernel wont have a working display driver yet
[15:18] <rsalveti> this kernel is basically the upstream one (same as master), but for omap 4
[15:18] <GrueMaster> yea, I see it now.
[15:18] <ogra> so make sure to have serial enabled when testing it
[15:18] <rsalveti> seems we have proper dvi patches at the linux-omap
[15:18] <rsalveti> so we should get at least dvi display working soon
[15:18] <ogra> could someone ask for them to be pulled into our branch ?
[15:18] <ogra> or poke cooloney
[15:19] <rsalveti> I can help with the patches, but can't work as my board has a broken dvi
[15:19] <rsalveti> *test
[15:19] <rsalveti> cooloney should be able to work on this
[15:19] <rsalveti> NCommander: put an action point for me to poke cooloney to work on the dvi patches
[15:19] <ogra> ++
[15:19] <ogra> though someone said he is on vacation
[15:20] <rsalveti> hm, true, but should be back soon probably
[15:20] <GrueMaster> Chinese new year.
[15:20] <rsalveti> anyway, I can email him
[15:20] <rsalveti> no other update atm
[15:20] <NCommander> [action] rsalveti to poke cooloney w.r.t. to DVI patches on OMAP4
[15:20] <MootBot> ACTION received:  rsalveti to poke cooloney w.r.t. to DVI patches on OMAP4
[15:21] <ogra> that kernel should get main focus during testing
[15:21] <rsalveti> I'll work to push the patch that gets beagle running at 720mhz soon too
[15:21] <ogra> the .35 one we have wont see any updates anymore
[15:21] <rsalveti> that should improve the omap 3 performance
[15:21] <ogra> ++
[15:22] <rsalveti> yup
[15:22] <rsalveti> questions? :-)
[15:22] <rsalveti> ..
[15:22] <janimo> yes, any news on .38 ?
[15:22] <ogra> are we there yet ?
[15:22] <janimo> for omap4
[15:22] <rsalveti> janimo: not much
[15:22] <ogra> janimo, read above ?
[15:22] <rsalveti> we have upstream working on it
[15:22] <rsalveti> got a branch with a ppa
[15:23] <rsalveti> but still no patchset from ti
[15:23] <janimo> ogra, must have missed it
[15:23] <ogra> too much side conversation around :)
[15:23] <GrueMaster> Are we at least guaranteed that the .38 kernel won't burn up any hardware?  I don't want another babbage 2.5 incident.
[15:23] <janimo> and too much use of Ctrl-L on my part :)
[15:24] <rsalveti> GrueMaster: should be safe
[15:24] <GrueMaster> ok
[15:24] <ogra> GrueMaster, it should work already, no idea if it will burn up anything but i doubt it
[15:24] <ogra> feel free to be at the friday call
[15:24] <ogra> to find out expected issues
[15:24] <GrueMaster> requires waking up.
[15:25] <davidm> GrueMaster, that was a hardware failure, OMAP does not suffer from that
[15:25] <NCommander> GrueMaster: unable to satisfy dependencies: Coffee is not available, but is referenced by other packages.
[15:25] <ogra> GrueMaster, its the same time as this meeting
[15:25]  * NCommander runs
[15:26] <GrueMaster> davidm: Just making sure.  Better safe than...
[15:26] <davidm> True enough
[15:26] <rsalveti> move?
[15:26] <NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster)
[15:26] <MootBot> New Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster)
[15:26] <NCommander> Moved
[15:26] <ogra> where to ?
[15:26] <ogra> left to right or back -> forward ?
[15:26] <rsalveti> forward is always better :P
[15:26] <ogra> hehe
[15:27] <GrueMaster> Discussed bug reports with marjo and davidm.  List we care about for reporting purposes is http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-arm-assigned-bug-tasks.html
[15:27] <ogra> GrueMaster, you assigned some bugs to the team recently
[15:27] <ogra> can we have them listed in the meeting in the future and assign them right after to individuals ?
[15:27] <GrueMaster> List for discussing open bugs that the team should look at and take individual ownership of is http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/ubuntu-armel-assigned-bug-tasks.html
[15:27] <ogra> awesome
[15:28] <ogra> you are ahead of my thoughts :)
[15:28] <marjo> GrueMaster, ogra: thx!
[15:28] <GrueMaster> The second one will have the team assigned bugs as well as individual bugs.
[15:28] <ogra> though i really dislike to assigne them to the team
[15:28] <ogra> we explicitly avoided that in the past
[15:28] <GrueMaster> Come up with a better way to do a list and I'll use it.
[15:29] <davidm> ogra, is only way to differentiate bugs we care about vs armel general bugs
[15:29] <ogra> davidm, why doesnt the way we use since years work ?
[15:29] <GrueMaster> what way is that?
[15:29] <davidm> there are a lot of bugs we just don't care about making it far to easy to miss those that we do care for.  signal to noise ratio is too high on general armel list
[15:30] <ogra> subscribing the team instead of hard assigning them
[15:30] <ogra> and then assign them to the individual that actually works on it
[15:30] <ogra> we never used the team as asignee
[15:30] <ogra> and imho that can only be a temporary thing
[15:30] <GrueMaster> there are a lot of bugs we don't care about that the team is subscribed to.
[15:31] <davidm> I don't think it really matters too much and what GrueMaster just said
[15:31] <ogra> who subscribed the team to them ?
[15:31] <davidm> lots of folks subscribe us to bugs
[15:31] <ogra> can we at least fix the bug policy accordingly then
[15:32] <ogra> policy was to subscribe the team for awareness but leave them unassigned until someone actually works on them
[15:32] <GrueMaster> What about the bugs that linaro is working on that our team is subscribed to?  We care about them from a knowledge standpoint, but not a reporting standpoiint.
[15:32] <ogra> assigning them to the team generates the false assumption someone works on it
[15:32] <ogra> GrueMaster, right
[15:32] <GrueMaster> assigning them to the team acknowledges that they have been seen and are being reviewed by the team.
[15:33] <ogra> assignment clearly means someone works on it
[15:33] <ogra> which isnt true for team assigned bugs
[15:33] <davidm> Well I think we can adjust the policy document
[15:33] <ogra> k
[15:34] <ogra> how do we make sure someone works on it
[15:34] <persia> Best to be aligned with the general bugsquad guides, which matches what ogra has been saying.
[15:34] <ogra> we need to make up a period for reviewing them regulary and assign
[15:34] <davidm> persia, then how do we tell what we care about in general?
[15:34] <GrueMaster> Also, I am not sure how easy it is to generate a report with bugs the team is subscribed to.
[15:34] <davidm> The list of bugs we are subscribed to is too large, the signel to noise ratio is much to hight
[15:35] <davidm> s/hight/high/
[15:35] <GrueMaster> without excessive noise.
[15:35] <ogra> davidm, we *care* about all bugs the team is subscribed to ... we *work* on all bugs assigned to team membvers
[15:35] <davidm> Not true
[15:35] <persia> davidm, There's currently a gap in managing buglists for teams in launchpad.  It's been discussed by the LP team, and has had some preliminary spec work, but it's a ways from deployment.
[15:35] <ogra> davidm, if thats not trues someone screwed it up
[15:35] <persia> NCommander, action me to go follow up on that status, and report usefully.
[15:36] <ogra> davidm, that has beed our bug policy since years now
[15:36] <davidm> it is very true, with Linaro in the mix now its even more true
[15:36] <NCommander> [action] persia to work on determining the gap w/ managing bug lists on LP
[15:36] <MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to work on determining the gap w/ managing bug lists on LP
[15:36] <persia> *status* I know the gap :)
[15:36] <davidm> not disagreeing what has been old policy, what I'm saying is old policy has now hit wall making it less useful to us
[15:37] <ogra> well, i still want to be subscribed to get bugmail for the team
[15:37] <rsalveti> the problem is that now we have linaro in the game
[15:37] <GrueMaster> my goal is less about following our bug policy and more about making a meaningful report for these meetings.
[15:37] <davidm> I want an easy way to get a report that I care fully about vs a report with a signal to noise ratio that is too hight to be useful
[15:38] <davidm> persia, do you understand what I am looking for?
[15:38] <persia> The problem isn't linaro.  The problem is that LP never had any way to manage teams, and as the number of teams grows, this gets noticed.
[15:38] <ogra> i dont see the team assignment as wrong as long as we make sure such bugs are assigned to actual persons within a very short timeframe (max a week)
[15:38] <persia> davidm, Precisely.  You want to be able to identify a set of bugs that you want your team to work on, prioritise them, and collect reports on progress.
[15:38] <davidm> I'm OK with a max of a week
[15:38] <ogra> but that puts a high load on tobin
[15:38] <davidm> persia, yes
[15:39] <GrueMaster> ogra: not really.
[15:39] <ogra> to assemble these liasts and do a lot of triage
[15:39] <ogra> *lists
[15:39] <GrueMaster> And please don't assume you know what my workload is.
[15:39] <persia> ogra, No, LP should be able to do it.  I need to resync with mpt about the design work done last month, and maybe toss up a PoC or something.
[15:39] <ogra> i dont, but i can assume how it raises ;)
[15:40] <ogra> assigning a bug needs conversation
[15:40] <GrueMaster> If my workload becomes a concern, I will raise a flag.
[15:40] <ogra> that will definitely add time
[15:40] <ogra> and guesswork on your side to find the right person to take it etc etc
[15:41] <GrueMaster> Thats why I am assigning the team.  So we can discuss the list of team assigned bugs in this meeting (not the report formats).
[15:41] <ogra> geez
[15:41] <persia> That's a reasonable stop-gap.  Let's keep that list to be small for now, and actually cover them during the meeting, so they can be better reassigned.
[15:41] <ogra> your list has tons of crap
[15:41] <GrueMaster> My idea was to spend time throughout the week triaging bugs (which I do while platforms are downloading & installing).  Then we have a nice report to discuss here.
[15:42] <GrueMaster> It's a work in progress.
[15:42] <ogra> yeah
[15:42] <ogra> i see that
[15:42] <ogra> there are many bugs that can just be closed
[15:42] <ogra> (the babbage ones stick out in my face ;) )
[15:42] <persia> Lots of those aren't platform-specific
[15:42] <GrueMaster> then close them.  At least start closing the bugs that you have fixed but not updated.  That takes a lot of my time too.
[15:43] <ogra> they are rather wontfix
[15:43] <GrueMaster> I am working on it.
[15:43] <ogra> what about the bugs assigned to others i.e, i see lool, asac and dyfet
[15:44] <ogra> will you assign them back to the team ?
[15:44] <GrueMaster> I have a novel idea.  Instead of complaining, how about coming up with some valid suggestions on how to fix this?  It would be much more productive than calling my work crap.
[15:44] <janimo> GrueMaster, persia  I see some bugs (not arm ones) LP automatically closed after a period of inactivity. Is that up to the project's admins?
[15:44] <ogra> GrueMaster, i dont call your work crap ...
[15:44] <GrueMaster> LP closes some bugs after a period of inactivity.
[15:45] <persia> janimo, It's on a per-package basis.  There's a lot of debate about it.  I believe it's actively harmful for things to be closed like that.
[15:45] <ogra> i call the bugs crap, nothing to do with you or the list
[15:45] <GrueMaster> And I am working on it.  As I said.
[15:45] <ogra> janimo, if you leave a bug in incomplete status for 60 days it gets autoclosed
[15:46] <NCommander> I don't think we're going to resolve this in a single meeting, persia has an action item to deal with the bug/noise ratio, now can we please move on?
[15:46] <janimo> ogra, I seem to remember some arm bugs from 2 years back
[15:46] <persia> Sometimes, depending, and it's supposed to get autoexpired, rather than autoclosed.
[15:46] <persia> NCommander, Please.
[15:46] <ogra> janimo, then they werent marked incomplete
[15:46] <ogra> NCommander, go
[15:46] <NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
[15:46] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
[15:46] <NCommander> QT works
[15:46] <NCommander> queue celebration :-P
[15:46] <NCommander> *que
[15:46] <janimo> :)
[15:46] <NCommander> *cue
[15:46] <NCommander> bah
[15:46] <ogra> how about the rest of the ftbfs list :)
[15:47] <NCommander> lack of coffee upsets me :-(
[15:47] <janimo> Qt celebration FTFY
[15:47] <NCommander> ogra: looked at kdebindings
[15:47] <ogra> awesome !
[15:47] <NCommander> Looks like the CMakeLists.txt file is bugging up on ARM which causes the second failure, or a binding is out of whack
[15:47] <NCommander> Haven't had a lot of time to look at it, but its next my list, which should clear the rest ofARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
[15:47] <NCommander> ...
[15:47] <NCommander> ahem
[15:47] <NCommander> *clear the rest of KDE
[15:48] <janimo> NCommander, that should be mostly give-backs right?
[15:48] <NCommander> janimo: one hopes
[15:48] <janimo> on my part, small progress again on two haskell packages. Most time was Qt-debugging
[15:49] <ogra> yeah, it stole a lot of time
[15:49] <ogra> awesome work from you two !!!!
[15:50] <rsalveti> yup, nice work
[15:50] <davidm> NCommander, did you see the GCC4.5 bug has a patch?
[15:50] <NCommander> Linaro is handling with the toolchain regression which is the underlying cause of the qt breakage. I'll be syncing up regularly with the linaro folks on that
[15:50] <NCommander> davidm: no. my inbox has 490 unread threads :-(
[15:50] <davidm> Looks like it's fixed
[15:50] <janimo> we should tackle banshee next, with renewed confidence and sharpened debugging skills
[15:50] <ogra> haha
[15:50] <davidm> they have a root cause and a patch
[15:50] <ogra> the eternal banshee bug
[15:51] <NCommander> janimo: statements like that always lead to weird dreams and a desire to slit my wrists
[15:51] <davidm> is that not the eternal mono bug?
[15:51] <janimo> NCommander, that is why  I brought it up :P
[15:51] <ogra> yeah, or that
[15:51] <ogra> getting banshee working would be really noce though
[15:51] <ogra> *nice
[15:52] <janimo> likely mono. Mono team says no mono 2.8 in natty so we stick with 2.6 . 2.8 has arm fixes
[15:52] <NCommander> janimo: your welcome to work on mono. I warn you that staring into the untempered schism that is mono's codebase will drive most mortals insane
[15:52] <ogra> i think much of the future featuresets in ubuntu use banshee features
[15:52] <janimo> but not easy to locate, may be side effects of rewrites done in the 2.8 cycle
[15:52] <ogra> whats the reason to hold back 2.8 ?
[15:52] <NCommander> janimo: might want to try 2.8, and see if it works. Not holding my breath, but maybe we'll get lucky
[15:52] <ogra> was it not released upstream yet ?
[15:52] <janimo> NCommander, I had started on looking at the test cases a month or so ago, we need to sync up
[15:53] <janimo> ogra, lack of manpower
[15:53] <janimo> on part of the debian-mono team
[15:53] <ogra> hmm
[15:53] <janimo> as it is a large transition apparently
[15:53] <ogra> and there is no chance to pull it into ubuntu first i guess
[15:53] <janimo> talked to directhex a few weeks ago
[15:53] <ogra> ahead of debian
[15:54] <janimo> ogra, I am fine with debugging mono, but packaging the whole CIL ecosystem gives me the willies
[15:54] <ogra> heh
[15:54] <persia> Not a lot of point: the CLI/Mono folk are fairly closely integrated between Debian and Ubuntu
[15:54] <ogra> we can give that to NCommander dont worry
[15:54] <janimo> I think it is a large task if it is not done by now
[15:54] <janimo> I thin 2.8 is months old
[15:54]  * ogra giggles evil
[15:55] <NCommander> ogra: oh come on. I have a one evil bug per cycle. No fair giving me a second one
[15:55] <NCommander> :-P
[15:55] <davidm> running low on time folks
[15:55] <NCommander> indeed
[15:55] <NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
[15:55] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
[15:55] <ogra> they buuld
[15:55] <ogra> *build
[15:55] <NCommander> and spin
[15:55] <ogra> nothing to report ...
[15:55] <ogra> ..
[15:55] <GrueMaster> What's the status on the minimal images?
[15:56] <NCommander> as soon as unity-2d is in main, ogra or I will adjust the seeds and unseed UNE-2D
[15:56] <ogra> oh, right
[15:56] <janimo> GrueMaster, no progress yet
[15:56] <janimo> GrueMaster, next up
[15:56] <NCommander> [topic] AOB
[15:56] <MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
[15:56] <janimo> I'll start asking for merges
[15:56] <ogra> foo
[15:56] <davidm> ogra, what are the odds of having Unity 2D as default in image by next Thursday?
[15:56] <NCommander> bah
[15:56] <ogra> davidm, i planned end of this week (as i said in the report above)
[15:56] <ogra> (mentioned it at unity-2d topic)
[15:57] <davidm> slid past me, sorry
[15:57] <ogra> we need two symbols files and an automatic bug assignee
[15:57] <ogra> they they are ready for main
[15:57] <davidm> I'm off to Scale and TI will be there so I'm going to carry some SD cards for them to use
[15:57] <ogra> (that were the MIR team requests)
[15:58] <ogra> note that there are bugs with the dash atm
[15:58] <NCommander> ogra: do you want me to do any symbol file work?
[15:58] <ogra> (expected ones)
[15:58] <ogra> they will go away with 3.4
[15:58] <ogra> NCommander, well, if you like to add the files to the bugs that would help
[15:58] <NCommander> ogra: ah
[15:58] <NCommander> ogra: I could just commit and upload them :-P
[15:59] <ogra> NCommander, but to trunk please with a review from Kaleo
[15:59] <ogra> NCommander, i gave you the bug numbers yesterday i think
[15:59] <ogra> or do you need them again
[15:59] <NCommander> ogra: probably have them in my logs
[15:59] <rsalveti> #ubuntu-arm then
[15:59] <ogra> anyway, lets close and move to -arm
[16:00] <NCommander> I don't think we have anything else
[16:00] <NCommander> going once
[16:00] <NCommander> twice
[16:00] <NCommander> three times
[16:00] <NCommander> #endmeeting
[16:00] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:00.
[16:00] <rsalveti> NCommander: and thanks for sending the meeting notice more than 24 hours before the meeting :-)
[19:02]  * charlie-tca waves at the crowd
[19:02]  * micahg waves
[19:02]  * pleia2 waves
[19:02] <mr_pouit> \o
[19:03] <charlie-tca> Let's do this then :-)
[19:03] <charlie-tca> #startmeeting
[19:03] <MootBot> Meeting started at 13:03. The chair is charlie-tca.
[19:03] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[19:03] <charlie-tca> The full meeting agenda is available at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
[19:04] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Old business
[19:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  Old business
[19:05] <charlie-tca> The old business at this time is the Xubuntu Marketing Plans. We still need to do the wiki page for it.
[19:05] <charlie-tca> anybody got time to put a page together, along with the know how to do it so it makes sense?
[19:05] <knome> there is some drafting done at http://wiki.knome.fi/xubuntu:marketing
[19:06] <knome> but that's definitely not final or 100% sensible
[19:06] <charlie-tca> It's a start though! Thanks
[19:06] <knome> no problem
[19:07] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Team updates - Team Leads
[19:07] <MootBot> New Topic:  Team updates - Team Leads
[19:08] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Packaging & Development
[19:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  Packaging & Development
[19:08] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: your turn today
[19:08] <mr_pouit> yep
[19:08]  * knome sings: if i could tuuurn back time...
[19:08] <mr_pouit> A few syncs/merges from debian experimental (now that squeeze is released, xfce 4.8 is being uploaded)
[19:09] <beardygnome> hi all
[19:09] <mr_pouit> some bugfixes on xubuntu-default-settings, and a few patches submitted upstream to fix some minor issues
[19:09] <mr_pouit> I guess that's all
[19:10] <charlie-tca> thank you, mr_pouit. Any questions for Packaging and Development?
[19:10] <cody-somerville> Is there any small tasks or anything that I could take on?
[19:10] <micahg> o/
[19:10] <knome> when is the deadline for any updates?
[19:10] <micahg> just one comment
[19:10] <knome> (the final deadline)
[19:11] <micahg> I was trying to get gmusicbrowser updated in Debian, but my git foo isn't great and bzr-git was failing, will give it another try this sunday
[19:11] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: what is the final freeze for updating stuff?
[19:12] <cody-somerville> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NattyReleaseSchedule
[19:12] <knome> micahg, we can provide something easier, if you feel it's impossible to git/bzr ;)
[19:12] <mr_pouit> Feb 24th for non-bugfix
[19:12] <knome> two weeks then
[19:12] <micahg> knome: no, everyone else can make it work, I just need to learn how to as well :)
[19:12] <knome> is xfburn default?
[19:12] <knome> micahg, okay ;)
[19:13] <knome> micahg, feel free to join #shimmer and ask for help, if needed
[19:13] <charlie-tca> yes, xfburn is the default for natty
[19:13] <knome> good
[19:13] <knome> what about cd rippeR?
[19:13] <knome> sound-juicer isn't working with most of my discs anymore.
[19:14] <knome> (and i do have lot of material to test with)
[19:14] <charlie-tca> cody-somerville: can you move the xubuntu marketing and xubuntu publicity to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu?
[19:14] <charlie-tca> I would like to keep things xubuntu-related on our wiki.
[19:14] <cody-somerville> charlie-tca, Move it from where? Are you referring to the wikipages on wiki.knome.fi?
[19:15] <knome> charlie-tca, sorry for creating the page in my wiki, i was planning on developing that a bit further before releasing it to public
[19:15] <charlie-tca> yes, cody-somerville. We have a page over there now for articles and blog reviews for natty, as well as the marketing pages
[19:16] <charlie-tca> knome: no problem. I am just trying to keep the xubuntu stuff in one place as much as possible
[19:16] <ochosi> hi everyone
[19:16] <ochosi> sry i'm late
[19:16] <ochosi> did i miss anything important? :)
[19:16] <charlie-tca> not yet
[19:17] <ochosi> k
[19:17] <knome> charlie-tca, i understand. please do also understand that we try to keep anything we work on same place, which is pretty my wiki for now; most of the pages there relate/are stuff that *we* are going to work on
[19:17] <ochosi> arr, please let's all continue this discussion in one place
[19:17] <charlie-tca> Yup, that's why I never ask to move the stuff that might not be directly xubuntu connected.
[19:18] <ochosi> ok, so we're talking about the wiki
[19:18] <charlie-tca> If they are not relative to Xubuntu, let's leave them on knome's wiki. However, if we are telling people to refer to them, they need to be on the Xubuntu wiki.
[19:19] <ochosi> so from the nodes in "xubuntu related", which ones would you like to move?
[19:19] <charlie-tca> Is anyone else going to work on them, knome?
[19:19] <knome> charlie-tca, the stuff that is on our wiki - not really
[19:19] <knome> charlie-tca, if it is a process where others also take part, then it's of course in the ubuntu wiki
[19:20] <charlie-tca> If they are strictly a shimmer project, then yes, they stay on your wiki. If they are something the rest of xubuntu needs/ works with, they should be on the Xubuntu wiki.
[19:20] <mr_pouit> maybe it's not that important, and could be handled some time else (i.e. not before the meeting)
[19:21] <charlie-tca> all right, let's move on then
[19:22] <charlie-tca> cody-somerville: we will leave the marketing alone for now
[19:22] <cody-somerville> Okay.
[19:23] <charlie-tca> I think that was just to say it got started.
[19:23] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Bug Triage & Testing
[19:23] <MootBot> New Topic:  Bug Triage & Testing
[19:24] <charlie-tca> We tested and released Natty Narwhal Alpha2!
[19:24] <charlie-tca> Great job, and many thanks to everybody that helped
[19:25] <charlie-tca> We are seeing bugs in Xfce 4.8, and the stacktraces are not complete. Hopefully, we can try to find what is corrupting the traces?
[19:26] <charlie-tca> OTOH, if you are running Natty, it is really nice!
[19:27]  * ochosi is running natty now, the only downside is the lack of nvidia-current. other than that it's really great
[19:27] <charlie-tca> any questions or comments on bugs and testing?
[19:27] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Artwork
[19:27] <MootBot> New Topic:  Artwork
[19:28] <charlie-tca> Let's give ochosi the floor here
[19:28] <charlie-tca> ochosi: update?
[19:28] <ochosi> mkay, i've been working pretty hard lately to get to grips with the latest "great invention" of ubuntu, i.e. adding the resize-grip to every window
[19:29] <mark76> :/
[19:29] <ochosi> since our resize grip wasn't very visible until now, i tried to make it a) more visible and b) nicer looking
[19:29] <ochosi> it's all in the greybird mercurial repo already, so feel free to test it and give feedback
[19:30] <ochosi> mr_pouit fixed the bug in xfdesktop and also helped me today to figure out the last remaining issues with the xfce-panel plugins
[19:30] <ochosi> i'll try to fix them for the next release
[19:30] <ochosi> other than that, the xfwm theme is almost complete (only the stick-buttons are missing) and xfce4-notifyd theming is going well
[19:31] <ochosi> what we still need is an overhaul of the menu button-icon, that could really look nicer i think
[19:31] <ochosi> and we should settle on default launchers for the launcher-panel, but that's probably a different topic
[19:31] <knome> (any ideas are welcome...)
[19:32] <ochosi> yeah, about the menu-button: currently i was thinking of lubuntu's menu button, that's rather okayish
[19:32] <beardygnome> what's the current icon, the xubuntu logo?
[19:32] <knome> beardygnome, yes
[19:32] <ochosi> the blue is a bit harsh imo
[19:32] <beardygnome> it's it good to keep that for the menu then?
[19:32] <knome> if the menu icon was like the lubuntu menu icon, we wouldn't need the text for the menu at all
[19:33] <beardygnome> what's the lubuntu one?
[19:33] <charlie-tca> As one who is not familiar with the different distros menus, and icons, I have no idea what that looks like
[19:33] <mark76> The lubuntu one is an abstraxct bird
[19:33] <mark76> abstract
[19:33] <charlie-tca> and how does that say menu?
[19:33] <ochosi> lubuntu: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Artwork/Incoming/Natty/Ozone?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ozone_menu_view.png
[19:33] <mark76> In much the same way a cute little mouse says "menu" :)
[19:34] <knome> mark76, we currently do have the text "Applications" though
[19:34] <ochosi> mark76: well no, it's still kinda the logo (but yes, if you want to call the logo an abstract bird then i guess you're right :) )
[19:34] <knome> charlie-tca, much in the same way that a fox embracing a planet says "web-browser"
[19:34] <charlie-tca> Actually, in natty, we do not have text
[19:34] <charlie-tca> We have the mouse, and no words
[19:34] <ochosi> yep, that's true
[19:34] <knome> okay, i didn't know that.
[19:35] <beardygnome> why has the text gone?
[19:35] <knome> anyway, i don't think a stylised menu-button (like the lubuntu menu button) does say "menu" any less than the logo
[19:35] <charlie-tca> Which is at least as blurry as ubuntu using a logo and lubuntu using a logo. It is hard to determine that is the menu
[19:35] <mark76> How about the word Menu shaped like a mouse?
[19:35] <ochosi> we can also just add a button saying "Apps" like gnome3 does
[19:35] <ochosi> i wouldn't mind that
[19:35] <charlie-tca> However, when you get used to it, it works
[19:36] <ochosi> mark76: in 24x24px ?
[19:36] <mark76> Heh. I never said it was a good idea
[19:36] <knome> windows 7: http://origin.arstechnica.com/images/windows7/Jump%20Lists.png
[19:36] <knome> doesn't say menu
[19:36] <knome> is pretty much the same style as lubuntu
[19:36] <knome> it stands out from the other icons
[19:37] <cody-somerville> Because the application menu is in the top left corner instead of the bottom left, I think the text gives an extra clue for new users
[19:37] <beardygnome> imo, the menu button should be the distro logo
[19:37] <ochosi> cody-somerville: but it always was in the left top corner..?
[19:37] <knome> it can be the distro logo, but in a more stylised way.
[19:37] <ochosi> beardygnome: yeah, but it doesn't have to be the same colors
[19:37] <beardygnome> that's what seems to be the standard for other ubuntu / ubuntu-derivative distros
[19:38] <beardygnome> true
[19:38] <knome> nobody is saying we should get rid of the logo
[19:38] <mark76> Are you changing the logo colours to fit in with the new grey colour scheme?
[19:38] <cody-somerville> Yes. So existing users will probably figure it out no problem but new users from Windows will probably wonder where the start menu is and have an extra hard time finding it without the label.
[19:38] <mr_pouit> and a text requires translations, which are a pain to manage
[19:39] <beardygnome> why did we get rid of the text?
[19:39] <charlie-tca> If the logo is what the distribution has an official logo, I think it works. Windows no longer gives any words, either, do they?
[19:39] <Sysi-> lubuntu logo looks really cool but it's lxde logo, and does it work with other gtk themes?
[19:39] <maco> charlie-tca: correct, just a window
[19:39] <charlie-tca> I won't have the lubuntu logo. Sorry
[19:39] <charlie-tca> That is not us
[19:39] <knome> errr
[19:39] <knome> HALT
[19:39] <knome> we are keeping the xubuntu logo
[19:39] <knome> we are restyling the xubuntu logo
[19:40] <ochosi> live screenshot so that you can all see what it *could* look like (the logo is not final) http://imagebin.org/137243
[19:40] <charlie-tca> Okay
[19:40] <cody-somerville> Aww... I really like the new one in maverick.
[19:40] <maco> charlie-tca: kubuntu just has a kde symbol, no text, but the fact that we have the same corner in use helps out there
[19:40] <mark76> How about putting the menu button on the bottom panel if you're concerned about Windows users being able to locate it?
[19:40] <charlie-tca> let's put some images together and see what they look like then.
[19:40] <Sysi-> if we're removing text i think icon should be wider
[19:40] <knome> ochosi, wow, that looks just like something in the toiler today
[19:40] <knome> *toilet
[19:40] <maco> ochosi: the fact that there's a windows start menu there too confused me :P
[19:40] <ochosi> sry
[19:41] <cody-somerville> knome, Ouch. Thats mean! :P
[19:41] <knome> cody-somerville, not really. that isn't really attractive in any way :P
[19:41] <ochosi> yeah, i mean this was a one-minute monochromization
[19:41] <charlie-tca> please!
[19:41] <knome> ..and knowing ochosi i know he won't be hurt ;)
[19:41] <ochosi> hehe
[19:41] <charlie-tca> let's put together a choice of images, without the windows crap involved and look at this next week
[19:41] <ochosi> +1
[19:42] <mark76> BRB
[19:42] <beardygnome> i like it, but i think that we should have some text, otherwise it won't stand out to new users
[19:42] <charlie-tca> ochosi: will you take an action item on it?
[19:42] <Sysi-> just tiny distro logo can be hard to connect with idea of menu
[19:42] <ochosi> charlie-tca: sure, how does it work? :)
[19:43] <charlie-tca> [ACTION] ochosi and knome will put together some logo designs to be discussed as the menu icon
[19:43] <MootBot> ACTION received:  ochosi and knome will put together some logo designs to be discussed as the menu icon
[19:43] <charlie-tca> like that
[19:43] <knome> hey! i wasn't asked! ;)
[19:43] <charlie-tca> knome: sorry, I assumed again. Bad mistake on my part?
[19:43] <ochosi> charlie-tca: k, thanks :)
[19:43] <knome> Sysi-, like in windows, ubuntu, lubuntu, kubuntu and mac?
[19:43] <knome> charlie-tca, no ;)
[19:43] <knome> charlie-tca, just joking
[19:43] <charlie-tca> and yes, I hate that assume thing
[19:44] <charlie-tca> Any other questions for artwork?
[19:44] <ochosi> k, may i continue with other small artwork updates?
[19:44] <ochosi> :)
[19:44] <charlie-tca> please do, ochosi
[19:44] <ochosi> you know i could go on with this *forever* :D
[19:44] <ochosi> no, really there is also chromium theming now
[19:44] <knome> (afk)
[19:44] <Sysi-> knome: windows logo is huge, mac don't have same kind of menu, ubuntu has text afaik, but i think it works in kubuntu (pretty big there too)
[19:45] <charlie-tca> back on topic, now, please
[19:45] <ochosi> i worked on that quite a while ago, but it has finally landed in natty: http://wiki.knome.fi/_detail/shimmer:chromium_style.png?id=shimmer%3Agreybird_chromium
[19:45] <ochosi> so i hope this will please all those users that moaned that chromium wasn't well integrated :)
[19:45] <pleia2> cool
[19:46] <ochosi> one more thing i wanted to show you is generic app icons
[19:46] <ochosi> we discussed that in a previous meeting
[19:46] <ochosi> this time i put together a small portfolio to show you what i was talking about
[19:47] <ochosi> (hm, wait, not an official meeting, i think it was just some discussion in #xubuntu-devel)
[19:47] <ochosi> http://wiki.knome.fi/xubuntu:generic_app_icons
[19:47] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.knome.fi/xubuntu:generic_app_icons
[19:47] <mark76> is this the xubuntu meeting?
[19:47] <ochosi> mark76: yes
[19:47] <mark76> K
[19:47] <mark76> Does Xubuntu have to imitate the Gnome 2 panels style?
[19:48] <charlie-tca> mark76: no
[19:48] <ochosi> the idea is to refrain from branding and to give users the idea that they're using the "web-browser" instead of ff
[19:48] <ochosi> the other thing you can see there is a proposal for an appfinder logo
[19:48] <charlie-tca> ochosi: there are no icons for browser and mail?
[19:49] <beardygnome> i'm not sure that "unbranding" is a good idea
[19:49]  * micahg agrees with that
[19:49] <ochosi> currently in elementary (our default icon theme) it's the same as catfish, which has a totally different funciton
[19:49] <mr_pouit> then, in this case, instead of putting firefox, thunderbird and xfce4-terminal in the panel, we put the exo wrappers
[19:49] <ochosi> yep, that would be the feature i'm talking about
[19:49] <ochosi> it's not about unbranding the whole app
[19:49] <ochosi> it's about unbranding them in the default launchers
[19:50] <ochosi> and making the default launchers look more "default"
[19:50] <charlie-tca> I could see a generic browser icon, not changing firefox at all. It means whatever browser you use, the menu and launcher stayed with a "browser" icon
[19:50] <micahg> launchers only, not menus, right?
[19:50] <beardygnome> but the launcher is the first place people look for the app
[19:50] <charlie-tca> launchers should match the menu, to avoid confusion
[19:50] <beardygnome> so if i'm a new user to xubuntu and i want to get on the web, i'm going to look for the ff launcher
[19:50] <charlie-tca> what if the browser becomes midori?
[19:50] <ochosi> beardygnome: so what if chromium were the default browser?
[19:51] <Sysi-> btw, could we create browser selection with xdg-open? i've seen it in fedora
[19:51] <mark76> I have an internet launcher with web browser, email and IM clients in it. Is that an exo wrapper?
[19:51] <micahg> +1 for launcher only changes, -1 if the menus change as well
[19:51] <charlie-tca> you look for the browser icon, not a specific app
[19:51] <ochosi> i'm all with micahg here
[19:51] <beardygnome> i see your point, but i personally don't like it
[19:51] <knome> beardygnome, we can't assume people think that internet == ff
[19:51] <beardygnome> true
[19:52] <charlie-tca> Then you keep the menu icon. It confuses to see one icon in the menu and another in the launcher
[19:52] <Sysi-> people think IE == internet..
[19:52] <micahg> I'll also assume we still have tooltips?
[19:52] <mr_pouit> (the menu won't change, these .desktop are only wrappers calling preferred applications set in exo)
[19:52] <beardygnome> +1 for keeping them ion sync
[19:52] <beardygnome> *in
[19:52] <knome> mr_pouit, those .desktop files can be in the menu as well, right?
[19:53] <mr_pouit> knome: yes, but they are hidden in the xubuntu menu for the moment
[19:53] <micahg> Decoupling the launchers makes for a consistent UI when default apps change, so this seems to make sense
[19:53] <knome> so, you can see the unbranded icon both as launcher and in the menu
[19:53] <beardygnome> i think that the help document should state that the browser is (whatever) and can be found (wherever)
[19:53] <charlie-tca> Let's vote on using a generic icon in the launcher only?
[19:53] <ochosi> ok
[19:54] <beardygnome> yep
[19:54] <charlie-tca> [VOTE] This is to determine use of a generic icon in the launchers, while keeping the brand icon in the menu
[19:54] <MootBot> Please vote on:  This is to determine use of a generic icon in the launchers, while keeping the brand icon in the menu.
[19:54] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[19:54] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[19:54] <mr_pouit> knome: but in the menu it's not nice, because you have both "firefox web browser" and "web browser", same for mail, terminal, and file manager (kind of ugly)
[19:54] <charlie-tca> -1
[19:54] <MootBot> -1 received from charlie-tca. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
[19:54] <ochosi> +1
[19:54] <MootBot> +1 received from ochosi. 1 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
[19:54] <micahg> +1
[19:54] <MootBot> +1 received from micahg. 2 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[19:54] <mr_pouit> +1
[19:54] <MootBot> +1 received from mr_pouit. 3 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[19:54] <knome> +1
[19:54] <beardygnome> -1
[19:54] <MootBot> +1 received from knome. 4 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[19:54] <MootBot> -1 received from beardygnome. 4 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[19:54] <knome> mr_pouit, what if you create a submenu 'default applications' or so for them?
[19:55] <knome> mr_pouit, or make them appear in the menu outside the submenus
[19:55] <mr_pouit> knome: yeah, that's what the default upstream menu does (outside, at the top)
[19:55] <knome> mr_pouit, like software conter
[19:55] <charlie-tca> yeah, too many menu entries is not good either
[19:55] <knome> *center
[19:55] <charlie-tca> [ENDVOTE]
[19:55] <MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 2 against. 0 abstained. Total: 2
[19:56] <beardygnome> would i be able to get the branded icons back as launchers?
[19:56] <charlie-tca> ochosi: try it then
[19:56] <ochosi> i agree with mr_pouit that duplicating the entries looks ugly, but maybe it would be a compromise
[19:56] <ochosi> beardygnome: you can change that panel with 1click anyway
[19:56] <charlie-tca> yes, you can change the icons in the launcher properties
[19:56] <knome> charlie-tca, just a question about the vote
[19:56] <charlie-tca> go ahead, Knightlust
[19:56] <charlie-tca> knome
[19:56] <knome> charlie-tca, first we vote about something, then we can 'try' it. isn't it decided now?
[19:56] <mr_pouit> beardygnome: remove the launchers, and add new launchers for firefox and thunderbird, you can even drag and drop from the menu ;)
[19:56] <ochosi> beardygnome: you can even change the icon for default browser to ff if you like ;)
[19:57] <charlie-tca> knome: yes, and if we decide when we do it that we really don't like, we tried it, right?
[19:57] <charlie-tca> ochosi: make the change
[19:58] <ochosi> k, will do charlie-tca
[19:58] <beardygnome> how many apps are we talking about?
[19:58] <charlie-tca> The apps in the launcher panel in natty, 8-10 apps, I believe are what we have
[19:58] <knome> charlie-tca, just wanted to point it out. i don't think the vote has much weight if it only lets people try things:)
[19:58] <ochosi> beardygnome: those that can have a default value
[19:59] <ochosi> ok, one more thing before i'm done with artwork
[19:59] <beardygnome> i don't think we should many
[19:59] <beardygnome> just browser and email
[19:59] <ochosi> [ACTION] ochosi and mr_pouit will change panel launchers to generic icons
[19:59] <charlie-tca> knome: we are not that grammatically correct here, I guess. but your point is noted
[19:59] <beardygnome> and appfinder / catfish, cos that's just confusing
[19:59] <mr_pouit> the exo wrappers only concern 4 apps (and only 3 of them are in the panel)
[19:59] <knome> charlie-tca, thanks. the devil is in the details... :)
[19:59] <charlie-tca> [ACTION] ochosi and mr_pouit will change panel launchers to generic icons
[19:59] <MootBot> ACTION received:  ochosi and mr_pouit will change panel launchers to generic icons
[20:00] <ochosi> the last thing i'd like to ask you about is whether any of you have opinions on the three appfinder iterations i made
[20:00] <ochosi> (you can see them on the page i linked to before about generic icons)
[20:00] <beardygnome> i like the third one best
[20:00] <charlie-tca> I like the third one
[20:00] <beardygnome> i think it makes the most sense
[20:01] <charlie-tca> and I don't know why, either.
[20:01] <knome> need to go now. on any votes that might raise up, i give my voice for ochosi :)
[20:01] <knome> ->
[20:01] <ochosi> the only issue with the issue with the third one is that it might be confusing with the ubuntu software center, no?
[20:01] <charlie-tca> Thanks for helping, knome
[20:02] <beardygnome> that precisely why i like it
[20:02] <mark76> If you hover over the Xubuntu menu icon a tooltip saying "Applications menu" pops up
[20:02] <charlie-tca> mark76: is that in natty?
[20:02] <beardygnome> i think it make it look like you are searching for software
[20:02] <mark76> Yeah
[20:02] <beardygnome> *makes
[20:02] <charlie-tca> that works then
[20:02] <ochosi> beardygnome: ok, i'll try to work on that one then
[20:03] <charlie-tca> Any questions for ochosi ?
[20:03] <ochosi> about the appfinder: i'll try to get the logo upstream to elementary, so if i don't manage to get the third one in, don't hit me :)
[20:03] <beardygnome> ochosi: work on it? looks fine to me :)
[20:03] <ochosi> beardygnome: has to be svg and all sizes, so yes, work :)
[20:03] <beardygnome> ochosi: np
[20:03] <charlie-tca> Thanks for all the hard work, ochosi. You are doing great!
[20:04] <mark76> Well, I say Natty. Actually I just installed a ppa for 4.8 in maverick
[20:04] <ochosi> charlie-tca: thanks, and no problem
[20:04] <charlie-tca> mark76: unofficial then. It might not be what is actually in Natty, since we never backported any of the changes
[20:04] <mark76> It's possible
[20:05] <ochosi> but yes, the menu-tooltip is the same in natty
[20:05] <charlie-tca> and let's get the website updates in.
[20:05] <beardygnome> charlie-tca: if we have dropped the word "Applications" from the menu, we need to update the docs again
[20:05] <charlie-tca> [TOPCI] Website & Marketing
[20:05] <charlie-tca> yup, beardygnome, we will
[20:05] <charlie-tca> pleia2: floor is yours
[20:05] <pleia2> oh good
[20:06] <beardygnome> charlie-tca: the bot didn't pick that last command up
[20:06] <pleia2> so a couple weeks ago knome put together some drafts for the site
[20:06] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Website & Marketing
[20:06] <pleia2> then I took out my crayons and ruined them with stuff I wanted on them
[20:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  Website & Marketing
[20:06] <pleia2> and we came up with this draft
[20:06] <pleia2> http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/xubuntu1104c.png
[20:06] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/xubuntu1104c.png
[20:07] <pleia2> the idea is to go with the new branding, and in general make the intro page simple and clean
[20:07] <beardygnome> looks great!
[20:07] <micahg> +1
[20:07] <ochosi> maybe the bg-color is a bit too blue for me, but the layout is yummy!
[20:08] <charlie-tca> xubuntu should be a small X
[20:08] <charlie-tca> but it looks really nice
[20:08] <mark76> Hmm. Should the mouse still have a bluebird background?
[20:08] <pleia2> good question, maybe we do want to lean more toward the grey
[20:09] <mark76> Or black :)
[20:09] <ochosi> mark76: it's in fact the other way round, bluebird leaned towards the logo
[20:09] <charlie-tca> not black or grey, it should come from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Artwork
[20:09] <charlie-tca> the logo is not up for change from the official logo
[20:10] <beardygnome> so we should keep the official logo for the menu as well?
[20:10] <pleia2> so I think we're talking strictly about the background then (not the mouse)
[20:10] <beardygnome> rather than the one we saw before?
[20:10] <ochosi> beardygnome: that subject was artwork, now we're talking website
[20:10] <ochosi> pleia2: +1
[20:11] <charlie-tca> beardygnome: ochosi will put some symbols together for us for next meeting
[20:11] <beardygnome> logo's the logo wherever it is
[20:11] <pleia2> I'll ask knome to fix the capital x in xubuntu and toss up some other samples with different background colors :)
[20:11] <pleia2> any other thoughts?
[20:11] <ochosi> maybe more than just two headlines as news feed?
[20:12] <ochosi> or how is that planned?
[20:12] <charlie-tca> I like it, I think
[20:12] <pleia2> ochosi: yeah, maybe we can expand it to 4 or 5
[20:13] <pleia2> it was also suggested that we make the news items more interesting
[20:13] <ochosi> yeah, i just wanted to get onto that
[20:13] <charlie-tca> Are we staying in Drupal or moving to wordpress?
[20:13] <pleia2> rather than just "alpha $blah released" if the news (marketing?) folks could get more creative with something like "alpha 3 released - now with shiny chromium theme!"
[20:13] <mark76> :|
[20:14] <pleia2> charlie-tca: honestly I'd like to move to wordpress, but that's a major project and I'm not sure it's even possible on canonical-hosted servers at this point
[20:14]  * ochosi loves wordpress
[20:14] <charlie-tca> okay
[20:14] <pleia2> the plan for now is to just stick this in a drupal theme
[20:14] <charlie-tca> I have to get you and vinnl together on the new releases. He writes them for us
[20:15] <pleia2> ok, thanks :)
[20:15] <ochosi> hm, news-aggregation from personal dev-blogs?
[20:15] <pleia2> I think the idea of a team planet has been floated too
[20:16] <charlie-tca> I have to wonder what that will turn out to be, besides something taking up space.
[20:16] <pleia2> yeah, I was unconvinced
[20:16] <charlie-tca> We don't blog well as team members
[20:16] <ochosi> maybe because there's no planet :)
[20:16] <charlie-tca> I can't even get a blog a week out of all of us
[20:17]  * micahg needs to start a blog :-/
[20:17] <charlie-tca> ochosi: you have a blog?
[20:17] <pleia2> maybe we could get some dev guest posts on the site itself rather than aggregation of personal blogs?
[20:17]  * ochosi wouldn't mind blogging about his artwork stuff
[20:17] <charlie-tca> we have the planet ubuntu already
[20:17] <ochosi> charlie-tca: i do, but since it's not really aggregated anywhere else than in the shimmer-sidebar (not very visible), i kinda stopped again
[20:17] <charlie-tca> pleia2 blogs often, the rest is really hit and miss
[20:18] <pleia2> so instead of "alpha 1 released" "alpha 2 released" we end up with "alpha 1 released" "hooray for new logo!" "alpha 2 released" "we have 4.8 now!"
[20:18] <pleia2> all different posts written by team members
[20:18] <charlie-tca> and throw them into news releases or a blog?
[20:19] <ochosi> maybe the news releases
[20:19] <charlie-tca> hm, what if we put together a schedule, and tried to get someone to write an article every week to release to UNW for now?
[20:19] <charlie-tca> s/UNW/UWN
[20:19] <pleia2> just keep them in the standard news releases
[20:20] <charlie-tca> That would work
[20:20] <pleia2> we'll get drupal logins to authors
[20:20] <charlie-tca> or forward them to vinnl to put in, even
[20:20] <charlie-tca> Who wants to write an article for next week?
[20:21] <ochosi> topic?
[20:21] <pleia2> ochosi: art? :)
[20:21] <charlie-tca> artwork in Natty!
[20:21] <ochosi> touché
[20:21] <ochosi> what day is the deadline?
[20:21] <charlie-tca> Wednesday
[20:21] <ochosi> hmm, okay, then i'll have to finish it till sunday, i'm off sunday to wednesday
[20:22] <ochosi> i guess that could work
[20:22] <ochosi> if you don't like it you can always write a new one till wednesday
[20:22] <ochosi> how long can it be/does it have to be?
[20:22] <charlie-tca> [ACTION] ochosi to write an article about artwork due for news on website Wednesday
[20:22] <MootBot> ACTION received:  ochosi to write an article about artwork due for news on website Wednesday
[20:23] <charlie-tca> not too long, I do all my writing in gedit, so I figure about 150 lines, normally
[20:24] <charlie-tca> Okay, who wants the second week?
[20:24] <pleia2> I think even if it's less than weekly it's ok, just something every few weeks to break up the "released $x" posts
[20:25] <pleia2> make it more interesting :)
[20:25] <charlie-tca> okay, I guess ;-(
[20:25] <ochosi> charlie-tca: hm, 150 lines in gedit depend on your screen-width :)
[20:26] <charlie-tca> oh, 72 characters per line, of course, for me. I don't really know, though.
[20:26] <charlie-tca> and sometimes that is a double-space being counted, too
[20:27] <pleia2> that's pretty much it for the website from me, I'll ask knome to draft some other drafts based on the feedback
[20:27] <ochosi> charlie-tca: ok
[20:27] <charlie-tca> Thank you, pleia2. It really is looking good!
[20:27] <charlie-tca> ochosi: more or less is fine, too
[20:27] <charlie-tca> sometimes it is about 5 lines, I think
[20:28] <ochosi> 150 lines is ok for me
[20:28] <charlie-tca> hm, running way late.
[20:28] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Updates for Xubuntu 10.04.2
[20:28] <MootBot> New Topic:  Updates for Xubuntu 10.04.2
[20:28] <charlie-tca> micahg: anything?
[20:29] <micahg> looks like it will not have Firefox 3.6.14 and Thunderbird 3.1.8 since they've been pushed back until MOnday
[20:29] <charlie-tca> We are doing ISO testing next week for Lucid Lynx 10.04.2
[20:30] <charlie-tca> Everybody is invited to help with the image tests.
[20:30] <beardygnome> what's the process for testing?
[20:31] <pleia2> someone should blog about image testing! ;)
[20:31] <charlie-tca> download the image, the install either in a virtual machine or hardware, check if things that changed work
[20:31] <ochosi> pleia2: +1 :D
[20:31] <charlie-tca> Good topic!
[20:32] <charlie-tca> We try to run each application at least once during the testing, but that won't always happen
[20:32] <charlie-tca> I am going to jump to other business now, since we are very late
[20:32] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Any Other Business
[20:32] <MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
[20:33] <charlie-tca> We will have another meeting next week, 19:00 Thursday
[20:33] <micahg> o/
[20:33] <charlie-tca> go ahead, micahg
[20:33] <micahg> thunderbird-locales still needs testing in maverick-proposed if anyone had time
[20:33] <micahg> done :)
[20:33] <charlie-tca> Thank you
[20:33] <charlie-tca> anyone else have anything they would like to discuss?
[20:34] <charlie-tca> Thank you all for coming to this meeting. The participation is great!
[20:34] <mark76> I don't think the wallpaper should be grey
[20:34] <ochosi> mark76: grey?
[20:34] <charlie-tca> Wallpaper is not decided yet, mark76
[20:34] <mark76> Yes, grey. It's a colour
[20:34] <charlie-tca> you might be seeing the xfce defaults
[20:35] <ochosi> charlie-tca: wallpapers is not a bad subject, we should maybe discuss it next week
[20:35] <charlie-tca> Natty still uses the same blue as 10.10
[20:35] <ochosi> or in the meantime in #xubuntu-devel
[20:35] <charlie-tca> yes, in the channel, I think
[20:35] <ochosi> k
[20:36] <Sysi-> (i think i should join there)
[20:36] <charlie-tca> I think mark76 is seeing the default xfce wallpaper in 4.8
[20:36] <mark76> Oh, no I hae my own
[20:36] <mark76> have
[20:36] <mark76> But I have seen some suggestions for 11.04
[20:36] <ochosi> mark76: then let's discuss it in #xubuntu-devel
[20:36] <mark76> K
[20:37] <mark76> Linky link :)
[20:37] <charlie-tca> the submissions we have now for wallpapers are at http://www.flickr.com/groups/uawt-7/
[20:38] <charlie-tca> okay, let's call this to an end, then
[20:38] <charlie-tca> #endmeeting
[20:38] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 14:38.
[21:54] <manuotazo> i have a little situation.. what can i do when my internet on the ubuntu 10.10 doesn't work?