[00:01] <ailo> I think I would focus more on the actual programs, see what you can do with them, and then add a guide that explains how to use them
[00:01] <ScottL> ailo, also keep in mind that these "options" to be chosen that install apps based on tasks would be loosely based on the established work flows
[00:02] <ailo> For a beginner, the program should have functionality. One program per function is enough.
[00:04] <ScottL> but more than one applications is probably required to accomplish a particular task
[00:04] <ScottL> and many, many permutations of applications selections could be made to support that task
[00:05] <ailo> It depends on what you mean by a task. To create a song, all you need is qtractor and some plugins and instuments
[00:05] <ScottL> but for a beginner, if we have established a best practices work flow and have an option to install applications based on that work flow
[00:05] <ScottL> ailo, right!
[00:06] <ScottL> if we decide that is what we would to for beginners to use, that could be what is installed when they choose "record a song with my guitar"
[00:09] <ailo> On the music side, I think I'm pretty well covered in experience about different software an d functionality. There's not that many different cases for beginners
[00:09] <ailo> For the rock enthusiast, Qtractor, I'd say. Simple, but includes everything you need
[00:11] <ScottL> that's a good choice probably, i'm still getting the feel for qtractor but i like it enough for what i've experienced
[00:11] <ScottL> it certainly offers the inclusion of synths, which is quite handy for the one-man-band bedroom guitarist :)
[00:12] <ailo> For the electro enthusiast, a step sequencer (I never use them, so I don't know if theres a good one for Linux)
[00:13] <ailo> I think those two cover most needs musically. Just need plugins and samplers
[00:13] <ailo> Audacity is a great tool, but most people never need it for anything
[00:13] <ScottL> but there is also video editing and graphics, or even podcasting, live performance, and others we might support
[00:13] <ScottL> but i really wanted input on just the idea of using -controls to help isntall applications based on a simplified base install
[00:14] <ScottL> and let the experienced users install their applications based on their own desires/needs/wants/familiarities
[00:14] <ailo> For video editing, I have no idea. For graphics, I know Gimp and Incscape are fantastic
[00:14]  * ScottL thinks that blender rocks for video editing
[00:19] <ailo> ScottL: I don't think it needs to be very hard. The software is not that advanced yet, anyway, at least on the music side, so you can only do so much. What you need is a guide, how to get going. Pick out the programs that cover all needs for a new user, and work on a guide on how to use them
[00:21] <ailo> The main two things for a rock enthusiast, beside the sequencer is of course a drum machine, and a virtual amp
[00:21] <ScottL> ailo, but if ubuntu studio started with a very basic installation, how would a new user install the software?
[00:22] <ailo> Ubuntu Software Center, I guess should be used by the beginner. I've never used it :)
[00:24] <ailo> If UbuntuStudio would put the focus on a  minimal selection of programs for the base install, then the rest of the programs could be in a database. That database could be on the web or in -controls, or both
[00:25] <ScottL> ailo, okay, then we are aligned then apparently
[00:25] <ailo> A tagged database, where you can search for functionality: sequencer, audio, plugin, sampler, instrument
[00:25] <ScottL> i just didn't want to suggest that we have a base install, without audio applications say, and expect the inexperienced user to figure out which applications would best suit his/her needs
[00:25] <ScottL> and installed them
[00:26] <ScottL> s/installed/install
[00:26] <ailo> No, I think some programs should definitely be installed. 
[00:27] <ailo> In a base install
[00:27] <ailo> Just like Ubuntu has one office suit, one web browser, UbuntuStudio could have one sequencer, and one audio editor, and so on
[00:29] <ailo> I know there's a lot of people who like Rezound, for example, but who needs it if you're already using Audacity?
[00:40] <ailo> ScottL: In any case, I think the logic way to move forward with abstracting work flows is to first write things down. Compile it in writing. Then, see how you can create automated work flows with software.
[00:40] <persia> We started that effort last cycle, and it's still underway.
[00:41] <persia> The new task model is based, in large part, on the output so far.
[00:41] <persia> What it really needs is more fleshing out of the use cases: to improve their testability for milestone verification, and their utility for new folk.
[00:43] <ScottL> ailo, i have no desire to create "automated" music, if i understand you correctly
[00:43] <ScottL> i only want to automate the installation process or help the user to setup the computer/installation
[00:45] <ailo> ScottL: Why not just focus on a set of programs, one for each function, and give the user a guide on how to use them. A basic guide.
[00:47] <ailo> When explaining for instance how to use Qtractor, you first define what is is, what is used for, and show a list of all programs in the repo that have similar functionality. Thereafter, proceed with how to use that one program.
[00:47] <persia> How isn't this what is being done?
[00:48] <ailo> I'm just thinking there's no need for many audio tasksels. Just one.
[00:50] <persia> We intentionally moved away from that, because people were complaining it was too complicated.
[00:50] <persia> Before, every type of audio package was installed, which meant that if someone wanted to do something, they were confronted with a huge selection of things, rather than being able to just select the stuff they really want.
[00:51] <ScottL> ailo, and too many applications were being installed
[00:51] <ScottL> heh, persia beat me to it :P
[00:51] <ailo> I agree. Too many
[00:51] <persia> Having lots more tasks is the price we pay in order to decrease the number of installed applications.
[00:51] <persia> Because for any given class of use cases (e.g. recording), there's a number of applications that are useful along the way.
[00:52] <ScottL> but that is translated into more selection during installation
[00:52] <ailo> Why not just have a basic tasksel and a install them all?
[00:52] <ailo> Or just the basic one
[00:52] <persia> What is basic?  What does that allow you to do?
[00:52] <ailo> By basic, I mean, one program for each function.
[00:52] <persia> We have that.  Which function is overloaded?
[00:53] <persia> Of course, some applications claim to do many things, but that aside.
[00:55] <ailo> Yea, I don't know. It still feels a little messy somehow. :)
[00:56] <persia> Ideas for cleaning it up are welcome :)
[00:57] <persia> but stuffing it all back in the box is known to be not the ideal solution.
[00:58] <ailo> I think I would want it to be as minimalistic as possible. Adding as few programs as possible. And the most simple of all, should be the documentation. Perhaps it is the menu that bothers me
[00:58] <persia> What about the menu?
[00:59] <persia> Documentation always needs help.
[01:00] <ailo> Overdoing with a lot of categories in the menu is probably not so nice either :/. 
[01:01] <ailo> Butt, an easy guide for beginners. Maybe an app, like Ubuntu's help app?
[01:01] <persia> Any ideas how to present it so that it works nicely for both folks with only a few applications installed and folks with lots of applications installed?
[01:01] <persia> We have that: needs folks to write help pages.
[01:01] <ailo> Where is it? Is it in the repo?
[01:02] <persia> Yeah.  package name is "yelp".
[01:02] <persia> Doesn't have much content related to the Ubuntu Studio apps though.
[01:05] <ailo> I think it would be great to have a guide only for multimedia. The things that deserve most attention are those that are typically Linux specific. Jack for isntance
[01:06] <persia> Are you up for writing it?
[01:06] <ailo> I guess so
[01:06] <persia> Cool!
[01:06] <ailo> But where to put it? On the web?
[01:06] <persia> I'd recommend chatting with the folk in #ubuntu-doc to get more details about formats and ways to distribute material.
[01:06] <persia> They have a number of well-established workflows for dealing with the content.
[01:07] <persia> Just be careful: they always want more people to document the stuff already on their lists, but they will take documentation for other stuff, if you're clear that is what you are writing.
[01:10] <ailo> Ok, so the documentation ends up on Ubuntu's pages, or wherever, nicely done. How to instruct the user about it? Support link on the Ubuntustudio home page? I wouldn't mind adding a notify app after installing some Ubuntustudio stuff.
[01:11] <ailo> Or, at least a link on the desktop
[01:11] <persia> We could just install yelp, and add it to the taskbar by default.
[01:12] <persia> Same as Ubuntu Desktop does.
[01:12] <persia> Or did, I suppose, as they are moving away from classic.
[01:14] <ailo> I would prefer multimedia specific over yelp, which I see as a general Desktop help. I think there's already vast amounts of documentation and Videos about all kinds of things, just spread out. Having a basic guide, with additional links. Something centralized
[01:14] <ailo> I guess a wiki section should do
[01:15] <ailo> And something that makes the user aware of it's existence
[01:16] <persia> Why isn't yelp good for this?  It can handle vast amounts of documentation, and embed graphics and videos.
[01:16] <persia> Principle of least surprise encourages us to put all such documentation in the same place, whether it be for the desktop, for the audio applications, or whatever.
[01:17] <persia> to be clear: I'm not opposed to having it somewhere else, I just think it needs a really good reason.
[01:18] <ailo> I think for reference, Yelp is good. But, for a specific guide, where you focus on a select group of software, maybe it's better with a dedicated guide.
[01:19] <persia> I'm confused.  I agree that separate content is useful.  I'm not sure why the content shouldn't be delivered using the existing maintained software.  Seems like a lot of extra work to maintain extra software just to deliver content.
[01:24] <ailo> I didn't know Yelp had pages about US, so that is why I mentioned the idea of an app. Just looking through the community wiki pages on Ubuntustudio
[01:24] <persia> I don't think it does today.
[01:24] <persia> But the key thing is that yelp is documentation viewing application: any package can provide content that yelp will display.
[01:25] <persia> The content just has to be in yelp format.
[01:25] <persia> The documentation team has a format and some tools that let them convert their working format into moinmoin and yelp automatically, so they write once and deploy to both help.ubuntu.com and yelp.
[01:25] <persia> I suspect that by talking to them, you can get information about this format and the conversion tools.
[01:26] <persia> And then you can use this format to deploy your content in both places.
[01:26] <persia> So that your documentation is seamlessly integrated with the rest of the environment.
[01:26] <persia> (and you don't have to maintain any code: just the content, using the ubuntu-doc infrastructure, and yelp)
[01:26] <ailo> Sounds like a deal
[01:27] <persia> Ah, we were both confused.  The backlog all makes more sense now :)
[01:30] <ScottL> yes, i see that ailo and i had different definitions of "basic install" :P
[01:30] <ailo> I think what ScottL is after and what I agree on is to provide some way for the user to easily get into using the programs. I guess I'm more inclined on doing that through documentation, and focusing on just a few programs.
[01:30] <persia> I think there's room for both approaches.
[01:31] <persia> Use ScottL's vision to ensure that the user can install an appropriate suite of software without feeling like they have too many applications.
[01:31] <persia> use ailo's vision to ensure that the user has effective documentation on how to use the tools available for each workflow.
[01:32] <persia> In the case of disagreement about which applications are useful for a workflow, go back to reviewing the workflow documentation and test cases, and discuss more widely.
[01:32] <ailo> Yes. A minimal install, that still covers all the basic uses
[01:32] <persia> "basic" is still hard to define :)
[01:34] <ailo> Or, should I say "standard". There are some uses that are linux specific too.
[01:35] <persia> "standard" is just as hard.
[01:35] <persia> Is recording a live instrument a standard case?
[01:35] <persia> Is creating a patchset out of found audio a standard case?
[01:35] <persia> Is MIDI sequencing a standard case?
[01:36] <persia> Is tracking a standard case?
[01:36] <persia> (and that's just within audio stuff)
[01:39] <ailo> I think standard is what most users do, and new users especially. For audio, I'd say, two types of daws, an audio editor, and the use of plugins (fx and instruments)
[01:40] <ailo> Two types of daws: cubase / fruity loops
[01:41] <ailo> At least, that is how I would start when writing a guide on how to make music on UbuntuStudio
[01:42] <persia> Those seem reasonable places to start.
[01:42] <persia> It may make sense to try to find some commonality between the workflows defined and the areas you seek to document.
[01:42] <persia> Just to make sure there is some alignment in terms of package selection to achieve the task, etc.
[01:42] <ailo> For linux specific stuff, the concept of jack and the ability to connect programs together. Once knowing that, the user will find it's own ways
[01:43] <ailo> At least the software used in the core of the guide could be installed by default
[01:55] <ScottL> coming to grips with the concept of jack is a huge hurdle for users, and probably one of the first they encounter
[02:29] <ScottL> ailo, if you would like to collaborate on the documentation i would love to be a part of it
[02:30] <ailo> ScottL: Sure. For now, I'm just thinking about where to start. I'll be focusing only on Audio to begin with. I'm thinking of a quick start section. Start jack, start a program, get sound out.
[02:31] <ailo> And then move onto work flows. Record a song. Make an electronic piece. Things like that.
[03:24] <ScottL> ailo, you might also look at this:  http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora_Draft_Documentation/0.1/html/Musicians_Guide/index.html
[03:24] <ScottL> it's kinda light on specifics but it has a good structure though
[03:39] <scott-upstairs> persia, you have mentioned that there is a better way to install flashplayer than how ubuntu-restricted-extras handles it
[03:39] <scott-upstairs> persia, can you tell me more about it?
[03:55] <scott-upstairs> using inkscape on a dual core just rocks that much faster! ;)
[04:33] <persia> scott-upstairs, I'm not sure it's better, but it's alternate.  There's a adobe-flashplayer package in the Canonical partner repo.
[04:34] <scott-upstairs> ah, okay, i'll look into that and perhaps suggest it to paul.tag instead of the one in ubuntu-restricted-extras
[04:43] <persia> The one in ubuntu-restricted-extras just downloads the one in canonical partner, unpacks it, and installs it as a non-package.
[05:09] <scott-upstairs> paultag, sketch of how the -controls might be: http://imagebin.org/137090
[05:10] <scott-upstairs> anyone else want to look and offer opinions is groovy too
[05:10] <scott-upstairs> paultag, i'll explain this one and work on the other tabs soon
[05:10] <scott-upstairs> paultag, doesn't have to be tabs, i just like the mental separation currently
[05:10] <scott-upstairs> goodnight :)
[05:13] <ScottL> okay, before i actually go to bed i checked mail, got a comment on my blog suggesting use of this theme:
[05:13] <ScottL> http://ubuntu-art.org/content/show.php/Ambiance+dark?content=132875
[05:13] <ScottL> looks pretty good actually
[05:14] <ScottL> especially the last image
[07:29] <abogani> persia: Merely because I never see a community kernel pushed into archives *after* Alpha3 (only Canonical sponsored kernels receive that honour). And at the moment 1) documentation isn't still produced 2) No one of the UBK have reviewed -lowlatency kernel despite it is the first appears on kernel.ubuntu.com/git 3) Almost all UKT members thinks that -lowlatency is a useless kernel. So you can understand whi I don't think that -lowlatency 
[09:57] <ailo> ScottL: paultag: The scetch is nice, but I don't see any point in changing rt settings other than adding/removing /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf. I would even put that and adding user to audio group into a single toggle, called "enable realtime for this user" or something, and maybe add info somewhere as to what it does.
[10:00] <ailo> paultag: ScottL: I would also prefer to have the checks in one window, 1. check if user has realtime (both audio.conf and audio group), 2. check for kernel 3. check extras. At this poing only No1 is absolutely needed.
[12:40] <ScottL> ailo, good points
[13:08] <ailo> ScottL: paultag: These may be a little ugly, but I was trying to put together the shape of it functionality-wise http://imagebin.org/137158
[13:09] <ailo> http://imagebin.org/137159
[13:09] <ailo> http://imagebin.org/137160
[13:12] <ailo> I don't know if it's possible to decide which "type" of kernel should be booted by default (going by the names -generic / -lowlatency / -realtime. All I know is, you can decide which exact kernel should be booted by default.
[13:42] <ailo> ScottL: paultag: Here's one with sections but no tabs http://imagebin.org/137168
[13:52] <ailo> Hey, falktx. What do you think? http://imagebin.org/137168
[13:53]  * abogani has just updated -lowlatency kernel...
[13:54] <falktx> ailo: honestly, looks kinda primitive, but if it works...
[13:54] <falktx> hey abogani
[13:54] <abogani> falktx: Hi!
[13:54] <falktx> abogani: is  it possible to update the lucid realtime kernel to the latest patchset ?
[13:56] <ailo> falktx: Just an idea of the functions and categories of the -controls. What are you missing there?
[13:56] <falktx> abogani: btw, I used your old realtime-31 for the new ppas
[13:58] <falktx> abogani: I mean, update the lucid kernel is your ppa, is it possible?
[13:58] <falktx> ailo: hm, the *_PATH for plugins?
[13:59] <falktx> ailo: I started making my own plugin host now, so I havent dealed with the my US-controls new replacement thing
[13:59] <falktx> ailo: but ScottL suggested to have a patchbay inside the controls app, what do  you think?
[14:00] <ailo> falktx: You mean *_PATH for VST plugins? 
[14:00] <falktx> ailo: LADSPA_PATH, DSSI_PATH, etc
[14:01] <AutoStatic> Why would you want to set up  a path for plugins?
[14:01] <ailo> falktx: I wouldn't mind the controls to have all functions, but for Natty, at least get the elementary stuff in. I use only one toggle for RT privilegue, for instance, which makes sure audio.conf exists and adds chosen user to Audio Group. 
[14:01] <AutoStatic> Rt privileges
[14:01] <AutoStatic> ;)
[14:01] <falktx> AutoStatic: user may download plugins and put them in a folder
[14:01]  * ailo needs to learn how to spell
[14:02] <AutoStatic> falktx: that's where PPA's come in handy ;)
[14:02] <falktx> ailo: i agree, making it simple also means it's released/done faster
[14:02] <AutoStatic> And any user that knows how to download plug-ins also knows where to put them
[14:03] <falktx> AutoStatic: the main reason for this is that some apps dont support recursive search of plugins
[14:04] <falktx> AutoStatic: i have some VST organized by maker (in folders), and I need to set VST_PATH to all dirs to make them work
[14:04] <AutoStatic> What kind of plug-ins are we talking about then?
[14:04] <falktx> AutoStatic: i would now except users to copy all Windows VSTs to /usr/lib/vst
[14:04] <falktx> also, some vsts install under wine program-files...
[14:04] <AutoStatic> So we're talking mainly VST's here
[14:05] <falktx> yep, kinda
[14:05] <falktx> AutoStatic: maybe an user has it's own plugin pack in ~/plugins... <- this may happen
[14:05] <AutoStatic> To be honest, I don't think an open source distro shouldn't bother too much with pulling in even more closed source binary blobs
[14:06] <AutoStatic> But that's just my 2¢
[14:07] <AutoStatic> And I'm seeing this too much from my own perspective as I don't use any VST's myself
[14:07] <falktx> AutoStatic: you have no idea how many mails I got about something like "I do I make this Windows app work?"
[14:08] <abogani> falktx: Sorry I don't understand. In my ppa last rt kernel available is .33-rt29
[14:08] <falktx> vsts are the bridge to the people coming from windows
[14:08] <AutoStatic> And what do you send them back? http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm ?
[14:08] <falktx> abogani: yes, the rt patchset rt30 is available
[14:08] <falktx> AutoStatic: haha
[14:10] <falktx> AutoStatic: still,  I need to stuff to fill the app with
[14:11] <AutoStatic> You need stuff to fill the app with?
[14:11] <falktx> AutoStatic: for me, having extra configuration is good, as the user can simply ignore it if doesnt need it
[14:11] <falktx> AutoStatic: i mean, configuration dialogs
[14:11]  * falktx doesnt have the screenshot link
[14:12] <AutoStatic> http://imagebin.org/137168
[14:12] <AutoStatic> Then set things up like permissions for hardware timers, rtirq, swappiness, disabling xrun prone services etc.
[14:12] <falktx> AutoStatic: i mean my tool...
[14:13] <AutoStatic> ah :)
[14:13] <falktx> AutoStatic: i want to fill it with lots of configuration stuff
[14:13] <falktx> (assuming they are not completely useless)
[14:16] <AutoStatic> It would be really cool if someone could make the realtimequickconfigscan tool into something that could actually set up things for you
[14:23] <falktx> AutoStatic: that's my plan
[14:24] <AutoStatic> Awesome!
[14:26] <falktx> AutoStatic: currently I'm trying to make my own audio plugin host
[14:26] <falktx> AutoStatic: i got the idea of making the GUI in python, but using C code as backend
[14:26] <AutoStatic> Yeah, another awesome thing
[14:26] <falktx> AutoStatic: this way it can host 32bit, 64bit and windows plugins at the same time!
[14:27] <AutoStatic> Which frameworks will it support?
[14:27] <falktx> AutoStatic: my plan is to do it in full jack audio+midi, with all standards available
[14:27] <falktx> AutoStatic: hehe, I want to be able to use LMMS synths too
[14:27] <AutoStatic> standards available, so DSSI, LADSPA, LV2 and LinuxVST?
[14:27] <falktx> AutoStatic: yes
[14:27] <AutoStatic> And WIndows VST's?
[14:28] <falktx> AutoStatic: yes
[14:28] <falktx> AutoStatic: also windows ladspa, if the user wants
[14:28] <AutoStatic> So you want to create a working Jost with LV2 support
[14:28] <falktx> AutoStatic: ahah, yes
[14:28] <AutoStatic> Now that would be KX!
[14:28] <AutoStatic> As in kick axe
[14:28] <falktx> AutoStatic: i already have the patchbay, I just need the audio-host
[14:29] <AutoStatic> Oh yeah, the LMMS synths are actually quite nice
[14:29] <falktx> AutoStatic: currently it checks properly for ladspa and dssi and adds them to the menu, but the plugins wont work
[14:29] <falktx> yep
[14:30] <falktx> AutoStatic: but, as you can imagine, this will take a while
[14:30] <falktx> I want to get ladspa working first, then I'll move to dssi
[14:31] <AutoStatic> Yeah, you're reaching a point where you will have to set priorities
[14:31] <falktx> AutoStatic: btw, take a look:
[14:31] <falktx> http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/1184/scr001.jpg
[14:31] <falktx> http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/7760/scr002y.jpg
[14:31] <falktx> http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/1218/scr003.jpg
[14:31] <falktx> (just posted on the forums ^)
[14:32]  * falktx is proud
[14:35] <falktx> btw, it seems that VST only works with C++, which sucks
[14:36] <falktx> the keyboard is from FL Studio (thus non-free), so I have to find a replacement... :(
[14:38] <ailo> falktx: The keys have wrong proportions on that too. The reason is because the black keys are all centered exactly between the white keys, which they aren't on a real keyboard.
[14:39] <falktx> ailo: i never played a piano/midi-keyboard, so i didnt know
[14:39] <ailo> falktx: The virtual keyboard that is included in the Ubuntu Repo has the right proportions
[14:40] <falktx> is there any place to find audio knobs/sliders artwork ?
[14:40] <falktx> ailo: vmpk?
[14:40] <falktx> or vkeybd?
[14:40] <ailo> vkeybd, at least. Not good looking, but correct
[14:41] <ailo> Perhaps the black keys are just a little too wide.
[14:41] <AutoStatic> Looks good falktx
[14:41] <falktx> ailo: hehe, tell that to the company who mades them
[14:41] <falktx> ailo: i think LMMS has some similar keys...
[14:42] <falktx> AutoStatic: thanks, i'm really trying to make good-looking apps
[14:42]  * falktx needs to learn CSS
[14:43] <AutoStatic> CSS is quite simple.
[14:44] <AutoStatic> Well simple
[14:45] <falktx> AutoStatic: someday, I want to be able to this things like this - http://www.cusisdesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/lmms.jpg
[14:46] <falktx> I know how to code stuff, I just need to know how to design them properly
[14:49] <AutoStatic> Ah oh yeah, the Cusis stuff
[14:50] <AutoStatic> Looks good
[14:50] <falktx> we need someone with good design skills...
[14:56] <persia> abogani, To be clear: if you say you think it's ready, I'll upload it that day.  Just tell me when.  Today works for me, or tomorrow, or whenever.
[15:00] <holstein> so much work in the scroll back :)
[15:38] <scott-work> true holstein, towards the end of natty release we probably need to discuss what we would like to accomplish and when :)
[15:51] <holstein> yeah, a proper meeting 
[15:52] <holstein> scott-work: im thinking just monthly
[15:52] <holstein> just set one up
[15:52] <holstein> im still not finding a better solution for posting meeting times for different time zones
[15:52] <persia> UTC
[15:53] <holstein> i did that twice
[15:53] <holstein> with varying results
[15:53] <holstein> well, it worked OK once
[15:53] <persia> It's the best we have.  Not ideal, but...
[15:53] <holstein> and the 2nd time, no body came
[15:53] <holstein> persia: i was thinking the fridge
[15:54] <holstein> im not totally sure what that looks like
[15:54] <holstein> anyways, something regular will help
[15:54] <holstein> "same time next month"
[15:55] <holstein> persia: i think weekly would be overkill for us
[15:55] <holstein> agreed?
[15:55] <persia> Monthly to start sounds good to me.
[15:55] <scott-work> agreed :)
[15:56] <persia> But historically a good time for everyone else has been bad for me, so my opinion should carry very little weight in this.
[15:56] <holstein> well, we wont be able to please everyone
[15:56] <holstein> and theres no reason why you cant call a special meeting time if necessary persia 
[15:56] <holstein> you or someone else that constantly has a conflict with the chosen time
[15:57] <persia> I'm not worried about missing meetings.
[15:57] <persia> I'll check the outcome, and complain if there's something that strikes me as very wrong.
[15:57] <persia> I'll even try to check the agenda and complain in advance :)
[15:57] <holstein> hehe ;)
[15:58] <holstein> AutoStatic: can you remember what time of week we talked about
[15:58] <holstein> that you would be available
[15:58] <AutoStatic> AH yes
[15:58] <holstein> im thinking a sunday
[15:58] <holstein> is that where we landed?
[15:58] <AutoStatic> I thought it was either saturday or sunday
[15:58] <holstein> some sunday
[15:59] <holstein> either 10am for you or me
[15:59] <AutoStatic> And then in the afternoon
[15:59] <holstein> i think
[15:59] <AutoStatic> oh yeah 10am
[15:59] <AutoStatic> That was it
[15:59] <AutoStatic> 10am is fine
[15:59] <holstein> AutoStatic: what time is it there?
[15:59] <holstein> now?
[15:59] <AutoStatic> 5pm
[15:59] <holstein> OK
[15:59] <holstein> let me acutally put something on my calendar this time
[16:00] <holstein> hmmm
[16:00] <AutoStatic> :)
[16:00] <holstein> maybe it was the other way
[16:00] <holstein> your 6 hours a head of me
[16:00] <holstein> its 11am here
[16:00] <holstein> SO that would be *early
[16:00] <holstein> 10am your time
[16:01] <holstein> how late int he afternoon is OK ?
[16:01] <AutoStatic> As long as it's not in the evening here I'm ok
[16:01] <holstein> lets say 10am my time
[16:01] <holstein> would be 4pm for you right?
[16:01] <AutoStatic> I'm always rehearsing on sunday evening
[16:01] <holstein> thats good?
[16:02] <AutoStatic> 4pm is good
[16:02] <AutoStatic> so 10am your time
[16:02] <holstein> cool
[16:02] <persia> What is this UTC?
[16:02] <holstein> i put it in my book
[16:03] <holstein> and i'll try for the last sunday of the month
[16:03] <holstein> regularly
[16:03] <holstein> OR the first would be fine too
[16:03] <holstein> persia: im +5?
[16:03] <holstein> i think
[16:03] <holstein> and its 10am
[16:03] <holstein> does that sound right?
[16:04]  * holstein looks online
[16:04] <holstein> cant do it now... gotta run
[16:05] <holstein> BUT its 10am EST
[16:05] <persia> So, 5 UTC?  That's actually not a bad time for me, surprisingly :)
[16:05] <persia> Oh, 15 UTC.  Yeah, that's less good (except today)
[16:05] <AutoStatic> UTC  is one hour earlier
[16:15] <scott-work> i highly recommend using this web page to help people with the time differences:  http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=5&day=16&year=2010&hour=19&min=0&sec=0&p1=0
[16:16] <scott-work> it gives many, many times local to many places around the world, and apparently most people can find a locale that is in their time zone to compare
[16:40] <scott-work> hehe, awesome : http://www.fsf.org/facebook
[16:40] <scott-work> note, this is NOT a pro-facebook link (if you are familiar wiht fsf you should have guessed that already)
[16:57] <holstein> scott-work: is there an ubuntustudio wiki page about meetings?
[16:57] <holstein> one that i can put some pre-converted times up
[16:58] <holstein> and a link to possible agendas or archives
[16:58] <scott-work> holstein: aye, it's: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings
[16:58] <holstein> i'll edit that then
[16:59] <holstein> and get something going
[16:59] <scott-work> idea:  maybe we survey who really wants to be involved and query their habitually available times, make a matrix and see where teh most common overlap occours
[16:59] <scott-work> occurs
[16:59] <holstein> scott-work: is there a reason why we need to meet before march 6th?
[16:59] <scott-work> holstein: don't think so, nothing critical that i can think of
[17:00] <holstein> im going to go for that
[17:00] <holstein> try this regularly for a bit
[17:00] <holstein> a few months at least
[17:00] <holstein> and go from there
[17:00] <holstein> ive had some general 'when would be the best time for a meeting' queries
[17:00] <scott-work> alpha 3 comes out march 3rd (my birthday!) but i don't think that should impact a meeting, 
[17:00] <holstein> that have resulted in tumble weeds drifting through the mailing list
[17:01] <scott-work> lol, but maybe we ask them on irc and put it to them
[17:01] <scott-work> autostatic apparently has expressed interest
[17:01] <scott-work> ailo as well
[17:01] <holstein> this doesnt mean that someone else cant schedule a specific meeting
[17:01] <scott-work> obviously you and i are in the mix
[17:01] <holstein> i said that recently in a response on the email list
[17:01] <holstein> just come here and ask you when you're available and schedule a meeting
[17:02] <scott-work> holstein: well, no it doesn't but if we develop a good meeting time we can stick to it until there is a pressing need to change it
[17:02] <holstein> yup
[17:02] <holstein> IF we have a decent turn out for the first sunday of the month meetings
[17:02] <holstein> we can leave that, and add others if needed
[17:02] <holstein> to accomodate whatever
[17:03] <scott-work> you have persia's thoughts on the meeting, i don't think that The.Muso really has either the time or the inclination at this point to attend, but it wouldn't hurt to ask him
[17:03] <scott-work> the only other persia that immediate jumps to mind is stochastic, we can email him directly, if he responds then good, if not then we move on
[17:04] <scott-work> maybe a few from the previous meetings like david and brian
[17:04] <scott-work> tell you what, if you will follow up with ailo and autostatic i will email stochastic, david, brian, and anyone else from the previous meetings
[17:04] <scott-work> that sound okay holstein?
[17:05] <ailo> I'm available most of the time. The proposed time would work well for me
[17:07] <holstein> sorry, phone... im back now
[17:08] <holstein> ailo: cool
[17:08] <holstein> so thats a go for ailo and autostatic
[17:09] <holstein> i havent seen stochastic in a while
[17:09] <holstein> scott-work: persia seems to be ok with it, and OK with not being able to be there
[17:10] <holstein> we will have logs for sure
[17:10] <holstein> and hopefully agendas in the near future
[17:10] <scott-work> holstein: autostatic has been corresponding with brian david and i about the website stuff
[17:10] <scott-work> he's somewhat involved, at least in that respect
[17:10] <holstein> scott-work: cool, and that could be a totally seperate meeting
[17:10] <holstein> as far as im concerned
[17:11] <holstein> you guys could even do that privately if needed
[17:11] <holstein> via email
[17:11] <holstein> whatever it takes
[17:11] <scott-work> i wouldn't mind if brian was the liason between us and the website "committee" and that brian attend regular meetings as well to report :)
[17:12] <holstein> sure, i think it was brian that i replied to on the list
[17:12] <scott-work> to be honest, i'm not really that involved with the website stuff at the moment, it's more brian (design) and eric (doing it) :P
[17:12] <holstein> possibly with a bit of a tone ;)
[17:14] <holstein> scott-work: i would be fine if brian/eric just report to you
[17:14] <holstein> or whoever you appoint
[17:14] <holstein> IF they cant make a regular meeting time
[17:15] <scott-work> i would really like to try to encourage brian to take responsibility/ownership and attend the meeting
[17:15] <scott-work> but if not, we can probably handle it by email and i'll attend the meeting anyway
[17:16] <holstein> sure, i was encouraging him to pick the time that works for him
[17:16] <holstein> BUT, its challenging
[17:16] <holstein> with the TZ's
[17:16] <holstein> and all the schedules
[17:16] <holstein> i guess im just saying im about at the end of what i feel like im comfortable doing to try and negotiate a meeting time
[17:17] <holstein> and not get frustrated
[17:17] <holstein> not opposed to some polling though
[17:18] <holstein> while thinking it over though, i decided that no one time is going to work for everyone
[17:18] <holstein> and i think just being regular will help with the TZ's
[17:18] <scott-work> very true
[17:18] <persia> There are a couple times of day that are least bad for all folks.
[17:18] <scott-work> holstein: which time do you have set currently? did you update the wiki already?
[17:18] <persia> It really depends on where folk are located.
[17:18] <holstein> scott-work: not yet
[17:18] <holstein> let me get it UTC'd
[17:19] <holstein> persia: and you can see if you think its one of those times as well
[17:22] <ailo> scott-work: You said you needed a secretary of some sort. What exactly would that mean?
[17:22] <holstein> OK
[17:22] <holstein> http://5z8.info/orgy.avi_b6g6h_horse-slaughter
[17:23] <holstein> shady url is at least 20% more fun than tiny URL :)
[17:23] <holstein> 3pm UTC
[17:23] <holstein> on a sunday
[17:24] <holstein> thats probably not too bad
[17:24] <holstein> scott-work: is this 9am for you right?
[17:25] <holstein> scott-work: i'll tighten up the wiki and all that 2 weeks before whatever meeting time we land on
[17:26] <holstein> if its the 6th, i should have time to procrastinate a bit, and still get everything looking right
[17:27] <scott-work> ailo: just to keep up with team reports at the moment, maybe keep and publish minutes from the meetings
[17:27] <scott-work> lol holstein, that's a crazy url
[17:28] <holstein> bbl... gotta run again...
[17:29] <scott-work> holstein: yeah, 9am on sunday morning
[17:29] <persia> There's a low chance I can attend.  It's not safe to expect me, but if I happen to be up fairly late.
[17:33] <scott-work> i have a window around that time approximately -3 hours and + 14 hours
[18:12] <ailo> scott-work: paultag: Hope I'm not annoying you with these. I did another version. Just learning how to use Glade while I do it :).  http://imagebin.org/137225
[18:12] <ailo> http://imagebin.org/137224
[18:12] <ailo> http://imagebin.org/137226
[18:13] <scott-work> lol, i love it ailo , kidna makes me jealous though, i should really look into learning glade as well
[18:13] <scott-work> mine was done in inkscape and took an hour :/
[18:13] <ailo> http://imagebin.org/137227
[18:14] <ailo> This time I did a 4 page version, where the first page already takes care of everything for the lazy user.
[18:15] <scott-work> ailo: i really like what you did, your divisions of items is way better than what i had :)
[18:30] <scott-work> ailo: was it easy to get working with glade or did you have tutorial help you?
[18:31] <persia> ailo, Rather than extras, might be good to target ubuntu-restricted-addons.  From what I understand, addons should be usable by anyone, but extras may not be legal for use for some number of people.
[18:32] <paultag> ailo: hell yeah :)
[18:32] <paultag> ailo: send me the glade when you have a chance
[18:32] <persia> I'm also fairly certain that we won't get a realtime kernel in Natty.  Maybe for Natty+1: it really depends on some documentation being available and RT upstream activity.  Currently kernels < 2.6.35 don't do very well with Natty.
[18:39] <ailo> scott-work: I didn't follow any tutorial, but it's pretty straight forward, I think. I don't really have an opinion about the extras.
[18:41] <scott-work> persia: we were considering placing latest stable -rt kernel into a ubuntustudio PPA to be installed
[18:41] <scott-work> persia:  are you aware of any objections to this?
[18:41] <scott-work> this would mean that the -rt kernel would not necessarily be aligned with whatever curent kernel is released
[18:42] <persia> I'm not happy about having tools that enable PPAs and install stuff from them without making this very clear to the user.
[18:42] <persia> My warning is more that there are some parts of userspace that are expecting 2.6.35+, and so older kernels may end up having odd behaviours.
[18:42] <paultag> thanks, ailo!
[18:44] <ailo> persia: So, if we add a popup that explains about the PPA and requires the user to accept, would that be ok?
[18:45] <persia> Less bad.  If you do implement that, please use the appropriate APIs in software-center, etc.
[18:59] <ailo> scott-work: About those extras. I haven't really looked at that at all. You think some of those packages are illegal in some countries?
[19:01] <scott-work> ailo: i belive them to be illegal in some countries, canonical seems to agree with it as well
[19:01] <scott-work> agree that they are not exactly legal in some countries
[19:02] <ailo> scott-work: Ubuntu isn't exactly warning the user when installing those packages, but we could of course do that.
[19:03] <ailo> scott-work: I don't really have any other opinion about the addons and extras, other than that I would like it to include everything if possible. 
[19:04] <scott-work> oh, i agree but i also like how you broke it out to install all or pick the ones you want
[19:04] <ailo> Even running the libdvdcss2 would be nice. 
[19:05] <ailo> scott-work: Maybe the way I broke it down is not logical, I haven't investigated. 
[19:06] <ailo> At least I can see the point in having "absolutely legal" and "maybe legal" in two separate tasks
[19:08] <scott-work> ailo: it certainly wouldn't be bad to point out and maybe divide the applications between the two while explaining the difference
[19:09] <scott-work> it certianly would be good to explain that it's the user's responisibilty to make sure what he/she is installing is legal in his/her country
[19:09] <scott-work> hopefully though if we align ourselves with ubuntu/canonical's methodologies then we should be okay
[19:10] <scott-work> ailo: i think exploring how the software-center handles it might be good as well
[19:18] <ailo> scott-work: This is the key phrase. Same text in Synaptic and SoftwareCenter "Please also note that packages from multiverse are restricted by copyright or legal issues in some countries."
[19:18] <scott-work> good deal :)
[20:21] <scott-work> ailo: can you work with paultag and explain what each button is intended to accomplish?  this way he knows _exactly_ what he has to code
[20:21] <scott-work> ailo: if not i can do it
[20:22] <ailo> scott-work: I can do that
[20:23] <ailo> scott-work: I've been thinking of how we could make a scheme about each button. I would rather not decide on the actual text used, so someone else could help with that. Text for notifiers and popups mainly
[20:23] <ailo> paultag: Whatever you need, just ask
[20:24] <paultag> ailo: you got it!
[20:24] <paultag> ailo: I really dig that layout, almost identical to what i was thinking in my head
[20:24] <paultag> ailo: well done, really. Well done
[20:25] <ailo> paultag: Thank you
[20:26] <ailo> paultag: I could prepare some text on what each button should do, what happens when you push them for tomorrow, if that's ok.
[20:26] <paultag> ailo: that would rock
[20:26] <paultag> ailo: I'm going to work on generic code, nothing will touch the glade
[20:27] <ailo> paultag: Ok. I'll get back to you tomorrow, then.
[20:27] <paultag> ailo: I can actually work with what you have now, and then update alongside with you, if you swear to not change names :)
[20:27] <paultag> ailo: roger! You're already doing wonders better then a "pro" interface designer :)
[20:27] <paultag> ailo: did you see the *crap* I was sent?
[20:28] <ailo> paultag: The glade file is missing a lot in terms of names, I think, so I'd rather edit what you use
[20:28] <ailo> No, didn't see it.
[20:28] <paultag> ailo: someone had the balls to send me this -- http://i.imgur.com/jCwTv.png
[20:28] <paultag> ailo: I was livid
[20:30] <scott-work> lol paultag, i notice the user in the upper right corner ;)
[20:30] <paultag> scott-work: :)
[20:30] <ailo> paultag: You will probably want to use your own naming schemes, so that's also why I only edited the names that you see
[20:30] <paultag> ailo: OK. I'll take a look down the tree. My guess is that it will be perfect for our 1.0 deadline
[20:31] <paultag> ailo: it's about getting it working and making it work right ( but not more ;) )
[20:31] <ailo> paultag: But, changing the visual text should be no problem, right? Shouldn't affect your coding at all, I think
[20:31] <paultag> scott-work: can you believe that shitty design?
[20:31] <paultag> ailo: yeah, no problem there!
[20:31] <scott-work> ailo: one thing we probably should add to your gui is to add a place to adjust the memlock, there is a reason for it
[20:31] <macinnisrr1> that's a great screenshot. ;-)
[20:31] <paultag> ailo: I access stuff by their names, and I won't be mucking around with text much, I'll just be setting callbacks on buttons
[20:31] <paultag> macinnisrr1: dude, I was not happy with that at all
[20:31] <ailo> scott-work: Why change memlock?
[20:32] <scott-work> right now there is discussion that between qjackctl/jack and ardour they are confusing users by suggesting two different memlock settings
[20:32] <paultag> macinnisrr1: I could not believe someone sent that rather then saying "no" or "I can't"
[20:32] <macinnisrr1> paultag: no shit.
[20:32] <paultag> macinnisrr1: How are you today?
[20:32] <scott-work> ailo: one is suggested unlimited and the other is suggesting some number dervied ffrom a percentage of your available memory
[20:32] <macinnisrr1> paultag: not bad, you?
[20:33] <paultag> macinnisrr1: not too bad, thanks!
[20:33] <paultag> ailo: We can abstract that pretty well. If I can get this running in 3 days or so ( This weekend is hack-factor-5 ), we can fine tune it to 1.0 in time for freeze
[20:33] <paultag> sorry scott-work *
[20:33] <paultag> also ailo 
[20:34] <ailo> scott-work: I heard about rtprio having to be 95 for some reason, which it is
[20:34] <paultag> scott-work: worst comes to worst, we file a few RC bugs against ubutnu studio and have the upload close them. We can play that game ;)
[20:34] <scott-work> lol paultag that's true
[20:35] <scott-work> ailo: i think setting rtprio so 95 is pretty well established (at least i haven't heard people compliaing about it) so we should be good setting this "blindly"
[20:35] <paultag> ailo: you're my dude, man! Rock on!
[20:35] <ailo> ScottL: Now, I noticed, there's a new file in /etc/security/limits.d/ubuntustudio-audio-rtprio.conf, Installed by the ubuntustudio-audio package
[20:36] <scott-work> ailo: really?!?  hmmmm, that's strange and a little frightening :(
[20:37] <ailo> scott-work: It has @audio   -  rtprio     99, instead of 95
[20:37] <scott-work> ailo: by the way, here's the email i was talking about http://old.nabble.com/sanitycheck.c-is-still-confusing-the-hell-out-of-people-td30728534.html
[20:37] <ailo> That's all it does
[20:38] <scott-work> ailo: i might download that package and grep for that later this weekend
[20:38] <macinnisrr1> Say, I've been wondering if UbuntuStudio would  be interested in an updated UI. I develop Dream Studio, which currently uses a monochrome version of Ambiance, as well as a dark version of the same. Since UbuntuStudio and KXStudio both use blue themes, I've been wondering if either of these projects would be interested in using a version of DreamStudio's themes, but with blue highlights. I'm very much interested in u
[20:39] <paultag> scott-work: sounds like your que! :)
[20:39] <macinnisrr1> I've just proposed the same question to the KXStudio devs
[20:41] <scott-work> ailo: obviously we should understand where it came from and why they thought is was needed, but we should really avoid trying to confuse rtprio by establishing it in two places
[20:41] <scott-work> macinnisrr1: abosultely!!
[20:42] <paultag> macinnisrr1: do you have a link, I'd really like to play with it, if you don't mind :)
[20:43] <scott-work> macinnisrr1: it's interesting you mentioned doing this, i got this link last night:  http://ubuntu-art.org/content/show.php/Ambiance+dark?content=132875
[20:44] <scott-work> macinnisrr1: ubuntu studio could REALLY use someone on the art and/or theme side of things
[20:44] <paultag> +1 scott-work 
[20:44] <ailo> scott-work: I only installed the Ubuntustudio-audio package recently. Don't know why I didn't before, so I don't know when it appeared there. I would remove that file from that package, since jackd already takes care of that, and let -controls edit or replace it, if needed
[20:46] <macinnisrr1> paultag, scott-work: My themes for Lucid and Maverick had some kinks to work out, which are now fixed but only on my home computer. I'll post here as soon as I've got something ready to look at.
[20:46] <paultag> macinnisrr1: outstanding
[20:47] <macinnisrr1> BTW, a consistent UI (which is as close to stock ubuntu as possible), was one of the main reasons I began Dream Studio (the others were branding and newer packages.
[20:51] <macinnisrr1> would you guys consider adding a button to that dialog that adds audio ppas (autostatic and kxstudio)? That could really open up a lot of possiblities for new/additional software that didn't make it to UbuntuStudio by release time.
[20:54] <scott-work> macinnisrr1:  there has been discussion aobut that very topic, but we feel that this exposes dangers for new users and experienced users can do this easily enough 
[20:55] <scott-work> macinnisrr1: but i think we all look forward to seeing whatever you have when you have it ready to look at
[20:56] <macinnisrr1> scott-work: understandable.
[20:56] <macinnisrr1> I'll keep you posted. Peace out for now...
[21:00] <ailo> scott-work: I think there are two files in the ubuntustudio-audio package that are not needed. The /etc/security/limits.d/ubuntustudio-audio-rtprio.conf, and /usr/share/ubuntustudio-audio/rtprio.py
[21:12] <scott-work> hmmm, we might query persia and TheMuso if they remember anything about these files ^^^
[21:13] <scott-work> ailo: it mgiht be an old fix, maybe 2 generations ago, i.e. before the current and /etc/security/limits.d/limits.conf
[21:14] <ailo> scott-work: Yea, I think so too. Before jackd started shipping audio.conf perhaps?
[21:14] <scott-work> paultag: was the +1 for the theme link i posted?   if so, i totally agree, i think this looks tight:  http://ubuntu-art.org/content/preview.php?preview=3&id=132875&file1=132875-1.PNG&file2=132875-2.jpg&file3=132875-3.jpg&name=Ambiance+dark
[21:15] <paultag> scott-work: yeah, man. I really dig the icons, I think that looks sharp as all hell
[21:15] <ailo> scott-work: Why not pimp up on the ambiance theme? I like dark themes, but so many of them are not very functional. 
[21:15] <paultag> scott-work: I also +1'd the we need an art guy
[21:16] <scott-work> paultag: yeah we do, i think it's historically been difficult to find someone to do it 
[21:16] <scott-work> ailo: i agree, i agree wholeheartedly
[21:17] <paultag> scott-work: +1. There's a huge gap between nerds and graphic design folk
[21:17] <scott-work> ailo: one of my concerns is that i fear that cory really got into the plumbing on the theme and i'm not really sure that it will be too easy to change things
[21:17] <scott-work> this doesn't mean that i don't want to because i really, really do (espeically seeing that screenshot)
[21:18] <ailo> scott-work: I wouldn't mind UbuntuStudio to be more similar to Ubuntu in design, especially since the Ambiance theme kind of rocks.
[21:28] <scott-work> ailo: lol, yeah, their designs are getting much better, maybe we should ask someone from canonical if we could borrow a designer or two ;)
[21:28] <ailo> scott-work: It would make things easier on us, if we were just to tweak that a little bit. 
[21:29] <scott-work> ailo: i'm not sure about that, cory did a lot of plumbing with gconf and we might need to touch quite a few packages to make it all work
[21:29] <scott-work> but maybe not, i'm just basing this on a few files that i've seen
[21:31] <scott-work> but we could certainly add this to the upcoming discussions for improvements for next release :)
[21:31] <scott-work> if we had the commitment from individuals to help work through it then i would absolutely like to work through it
[21:44] <persia> ailo, scott-work: the audio.conf and rtprio.py stuff is something which diwic is better asked about.
[21:44] <persia> Last I knew, the remaining work was 1) add memlock support to rtkit (or create memkit), and 2) make JACK use rtkit (and memkit, if created).
[21:47] <ailo> persia: But, then the files will not be needed anyway, right? If using rtkit and memkit..
[21:48] <persia> Right.  If diwic completes his spec, the files aren't needed.  If he runs out of time, the files may be needed.
[21:48] <persia> Depends how much time he has, really.
[21:49] <persia> Of course, if anyone wants to help, I'm sure he'd appreciate it.
[21:49] <ailo> persia: But, I don't think we need those files now, even, since jackd provides rtprio and memlock with /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf
[21:49] <ailo> The package jackd, that is
[21:49] <persia> Ah, maybe we don't need them in ubuntustudio-controls then, and diwic's spec lets us drop that file from jackd
[21:51] <ailo> persia: jackd includes an installation script which provides that file, if the user chooses to have rt or not. We will also add that file through the new -controls, if not already there.
[21:52] <scott-work> let's be clear though, jack provides a different file that sets rtprio than ubuntustudio-audio, which sets rtprio in a different file
[21:53] <scott-work> according to what ailo has stated
[21:53] <ailo> True
[21:54] <persia> The issue is that the way that jackd does it isn't very secure.  It grants rights to users who oughtn't have them, and fails to grant rights to users who ought have them.
[21:54] <persia> It also forces us to retain the "audio" group, which is dropped everywhere else, and actively deprecated in an increasing volume of documentation.
[21:54] <ailo> persia: Yes, but until we get rtkit going, we don't have any choice, right?
[21:54] <persia> Right.
[21:55] <persia> Point being that this change is dependent on diwic's spec, and we ought be following that, rather than just adding stuff.
[21:55] <scott-work> ailo: it seems that it wouldn't be too much change to the default "dark ambience" them to make it look like the previously linked theme according to this page:  http://www.webupd8.org/2010/03/new-ubuntu-1004-light-and-dark-themes.html
[21:55] <scott-work> ailo: looking at the 2nd picture
[21:55] <persia> It may be that we want ubuntustudio-controls to do something slightly different than it does now, depending on how much progress diwic makes.
[21:55] <persia> But he doesn't tend to idle in this channel, so has to be hunted down.
[21:59] <ailo> ScottL: Do you have his email? David Henningsson / diwic
[22:00] <scott-work> sent it pm
[22:14] <scott-work> just putting this into the channel for record:  Faenza icons
[23:44] <rlameiro> hi there
[23:45] <rlameiro> hi ScottL 
[23:45] <ailo> hey rlameiro
[23:45] <rlameiro> hey ailo, how is it going
[23:45] <rlameiro> I was making more tests on the alpha... its looking bad for my side...
[23:46] <ailo> I started a test patch on puredata, yesterday I think, but it seems the -generic kernel changes a lot perfomance-wise, so I didn't continue on the patch
[23:46] <rlameiro> I think i need to buy an external ti chipset Firewire board
[23:46] <rlameiro> really?
[23:46] <rlameiro> well, i need to update then
[23:46] <ailo> periodic xruns?
[23:47] <rlameiro> a lot of Xruns and a lot of little ones too
[23:47] <rlameiro> pd has a lot of crackles
[23:47] <ailo> No matter which period/buffer?
[23:48] <ailo> Do you get good performance with an -rt kernel?
[23:48] <ailo> and rtirq script
[23:48] <rlameiro> ailo: with rt it improves but not too much
[23:48] <rlameiro> thats what i need to know
[23:48] <ailo> What chip is it?
[23:48] <ailo> The firewire chip, that is
[23:48] <rlameiro> how does rtirq work on ubuntustudio?
[23:49] <rlameiro> RICOH.....
[23:49] <ailo> Doesn't work without an -rt kernel
[23:49] <ScottL> hi rlameiro 
[23:49] <rlameiro> aon board, probably with shared IRQ
[23:49] <ailo> I guess it's because of ricoh, then. Heard very bad things about it
[23:49] <rlameiro> ScottL: hey, not beeing a good tester....
[23:50] <rlameiro> ScottL: we should make some kind of hardware recommendations on release notes
[23:50] <ailo> rlameiro: rtirq script should take care of irq share problems
[23:50] <rlameiro> but do I need to runn it?
[23:50] <rlameiro> wasnt he on a rule somewhere?
[23:50] <rlameiro> like it would run when some FW device is plugged or something?
[23:51] <rlameiro> I remeber someone talking about it, not sure if it was an idea tough...
[23:51] <ailo> the rtirq scrip is available as a package. You should try with a distro that has -rt kernel and rtirq script together
[23:51] <ailo> puredyne should be fine to test
[23:52] <ailo> The rtirq script is run at bootup. Not sure about the details
[23:52] <rlameiro> I will take a look into Ubuntustudio
[23:52] <ailo> It gives higher prio to audio devices
[23:52] <rlameiro> well, then i need to have the interface connected at boot time...
[23:52] <ailo> But, it will only work with an -rt kernel
[23:52] <rlameiro> yes i know that
[23:52] <ailo> Not with -lowlatency
[23:53] <ailo> I don't think you need to have the device connected at boot time, but I'm not sure. 
[23:54] <rlameiro> well, either way, i want to run it on ubuntu studio...
[23:54] <ailo> Lucid has realtime kernel, right?
[23:54] <ailo> puredyne uses the same kernel as ubuntustudio karmic
[23:55] <ailo> puredyne 910 and 911, that is
[23:55] <rlameiro> I still have 9.10 for hardcore pd usage...
[23:56] <ailo> You probably have rtirq installed on that. The package is called rtirq-init
[23:56] <ScottL> rlameiro, sorry, just got home, catching up with backscroll
[23:56] <rlameiro> ScottL: np
[23:56] <rlameiro> ailo: yes i have