[00:07] <hajour> charlie-tca,  i don't men alone the wiki s but also the site s connected 
[00:07] <hajour> men= mean
[00:07] <hajour> hai MichelleQ 
[00:09] <hajour> http://www.jonobacon.org/2010/12/06/why-it-matters/    <<< UndiFineD  have read it for me.(i did not know so fast a other example sorry jono )
[00:09] <hajour> charlie-tca, ^
[00:10] <hajour> but this things i mean
[00:11] <charlie-tca> it should already be accessible in the browser
[00:12] <hajour> uhm then where can i put the fonts bigger charlie-tca ?
[00:12] <erkan^> Tomorrow I go install jaaa, UndiFineD (-:
[00:12] <charlie-tca> I don't how to in the browser you use.
[00:13] <erkan^> because a monteur come make a modem for an internet connect tomorrow (-:
[00:13] <hajour> i have chromium
[00:13] <UndiFineD> erkan^: also try sonic visualizer
[00:13] <erkan^> ok
[00:13] <UndiFineD> and have fun
[00:14] <UndiFineD> :SD
[00:14] <UndiFineD> :D
[00:14] <charlie-tca> Sometimes it is the computer, not the software, too. If you have too small a screen, software won't make it bigger
[00:14] <erkan^> I can not found "sonic visualizer" by Software Centre 
[00:15] <UndiFineD> no, it is on their website, it makes spectograms
[00:15] <UndiFineD> erkan^: but they have a ubuntu deb by default
[00:15] <erkan^> http://www.sonicvisualiser.org/
[00:15] <UndiFineD> that is the one
[00:16] <hajour> charlie-tca,  people with issues often dont have or have less money.a big screen cost much more
[00:16] <erkan^> did you know that i am full deaf, UndiFineD ?
[00:17] <hajour> so it have to be accessibile even with a small screen
[00:17] <UndiFineD> erkan^: it still makes nive pictures
[00:17] <hajour> charlie-tca, ^
[00:17] <charlie-tca> If you can not make the fonts big enough because the screen is too small, that does not mean the website is not accessible. It means your hardware is bad
[00:18] <UndiFineD> erkan^: the idea is, that even while you are deaf, you cannot hear whatt you say, but you can visualize with a spectogram how you say things, and match it on how someone else have said it
[00:18] <hajour> so you say no much money for a better pc then just bad luck charlie-tca 
[00:18] <hajour> ?
[00:18] <charlie-tca> sorry, I give up
[00:19] <hajour> thats my point sorry but that is how i see it
[00:20] <hajour> not mend as a personal attack charlie-tca :)
[00:20] <charlie-tca> I can't read anything in my phone. That does not mean it is not accessible. It means I should not try to read in my phone, which is not good for me to see.
[00:21] <hajour> well i cant buy a bigger screen also much  others not so i just not try to read
[00:22] <UndiFineD> erkan^: it means if your spoken wave matches that of someone else, you have spoken it exactly the same.
 i understand it
 but what is nive, UndiFineD ? do you mean " nivo ? 
 Tomorrow I try with " jaaa and sonic visualizer" .. i am very curious too
[00:23] <erkan^> sorry an internet connect doesn't work good. ik heb geduld dat morgen komt de monteur bij me langs en een modem te genezen (-: UndiFineD 
[00:23] <UndiFineD> erkan^: very likely
[00:23] <erkan^> ok
[00:26] <hajour> also charlie-tca  now the fonts are adjust in chat i can read chat much better
[00:26] <hajour> so if i can read here is it then my hardware? or just that a site should be more accessible ?
[00:27] <charlie-tca> so why not use that same font in the browser? 
[00:27] <hajour> in a site like what i linked in here?
[00:28] <UndiFineD> it was changed by setting the default font size in llubuntu charlie-tca 
[00:28] <erkan^> I go sleep now. good night 
[00:28] <UndiFineD> trusten erkan^ 
[00:28] <charlie-tca> which is in that computer, not somewhere else, right?
[00:28] <erkan^> thank you
[00:28] <UndiFineD> charlie-tca: yes
[00:29] <charlie-tca> try different fonts in the browser to see if one will work best. I have tried over 20 here to find one that works
[00:35] <UndiFineD> with chromium I cannot override the site css
[00:36] <UndiFineD> or cannot find it
[00:36] <UndiFineD> so I think only firefox is an option
[00:38] <Pendulum> hajour: I have no control over jono's personal website. I suggest that you e-mail him about it. It's not an official Ubuntu thing so it doesn't fall under our remit
[00:39] <hajour> but accessibility have his interest i heard Pendulum 
[00:40] <Pendulum> hajour: He's interested in it, yes. But we're talking about his personal website. Which is why I'm suggesting you e-mail him to let him know the problem. It's not really an accessibility team thing.
[00:40] <hajour> btw charlie-tca  its not very accessible i need help to put in the settings i think ? if i see it wong you can tell me
[00:42] <hajour> well i see it different Pendulum  accessible is meant for over whole internet thats the hope we have thought ?
[00:43] <hajour> sorry i seam every time to open the box of pendora 
[00:44] <Pendulum> hajour: I agree. But the Ubuntu Accessibility team cannot tell people what they must or must not do with their personal websites. Jono's blog is something that needs to be addressed with jono and he does better if someone e-mails him to let him know there is a problem. I don't experience the problem so I think it would be stronger if you were the one to e-mail
[00:44] <charlie-tca> hajour: I don't think you it is just you. When we things that don't work for us, we all seem to get frustrated fast trying to change it.
[00:46] <Pendulum> hajour: I totally understand that you want it fixed, but I have no power to do so. And jono is likely to want to fix it as soon as he knows of the issue, but he may not know it's there.
[00:47] <Pendulum> MichelleQ: ping?
[00:47] <MichelleQ> Pendulum: pong!
[00:49] <hajour> jono is mailed Pendulum  and charlie-tca 
[00:49] <Pendulum> hajour: great :)
[00:50] <charlie-tca> hajour: That is a good thing!
[00:50] <hajour> but what i mend is i think it would be good to look critical to the site s we are having to make it accessible
[00:50] <hajour> we all
[00:50] <Pendulum> hajour: just so you know, he may be gone for the day (he's mostly on IRC during working hours since this is his paid job), but he will respond
[00:50] <hajour> i also
[00:51] <hajour> ok phillw have helped me with to mail to jono
[00:51] <Pendulum> hajour: There has been a lot of stuff done trying to get the Ubuntu website and wiki accessible. phillw was supposed to be liasing with alejandra at Canonical about that, but I'm not sure what happened
[00:51] <hajour> Pendulum,  and charlie-tca ^
[00:52] <charlie-tca> not much
[00:52] <hajour> Pendulum,  what to put a vote in mail about the wiki on whole ubuntu
[00:52] <phillw> Pendulum: the bug was assigned to Alan, I've just emailed Jono about it.
[00:52] <hajour> and then send the out come to the wiki
[00:53] <hajour> maybe then they will wake up
[00:53] <Pendulum> hajour: no, we've actually had patches submitted, the problem is getting Canonical to approve things.
[00:53] <charlie-tca> You still can not read much of the wiki and ubuntu websites if you need big fonts.
[00:53] <Pendulum> phillw: I'd e-mail alejandra about it, not jono
[00:53] <phillw> Pendulum: would you like a copy of the email? I try not to clutter people's in trays up.
[00:54] <hajour> its not only the fonts charlie-tca  and Pendulum 
[00:54] <Pendulum> phillw: I'm a little confused. My understanding was that you were to be liasing between the accessibility team and alejandra at Canonical who is the person on the design team who works on the website and wiki design
[00:54] <hajour> i not look only to what i have problems with Pendulum  and charlie-tca 
[00:55] <phillw> Pendulum: I am aware that alan bell was assigned the bug, as a wiki admin person I can also go and nag Phil Bull who is our boss if you wish.
[00:55] <Pendulum> phillw: what bug?
[00:55] <hajour> then we send the out come to canonical 
[00:56] <Pendulum> wiki themes are not something that Phil Bull has control over. They are something that get done by the design team at Canonical.
[00:56] <charlie-tca> AlanBell can not fix the issues that the Canonical design team created
[00:56] <hajour> charlie-tca,  Pendulum ^
[00:56] <phillw> Pendulum: I have had no contact from alejandra at Canonical
[00:57] <charlie-tca> and there lies the problem, phillw 
[00:57] <Pendulum> phillw: I will send an e-mail to both of you, then. Please, please copy me on e-mails you send regarding accessibility on the website.
[00:57] <hajour> the new version from ubuntu design with fonts is much more hard to read then the old one.i mean the one with the red/orange ?
[00:57] <Pendulum> phillw: sorry, I thought you had her e-mail from when she e-mailed the list back when this was setup in November
[00:58] <phillw> Pendulum: no, I did not receive it.
[01:00] <phillw> Pendulum: it is essential that all of us are 'kept in the loop', please also ensure Alan Bell is kept upto date has the he has taken the bug on.
[01:05] <Pendulum> I'm sending this e-mail and then I'm done doing work for the night. I have to say I'm kinda disappointed that some of this website stuff wasn't addressed 2 months ago and that I was never asked for the Canonical contact information when I said that I was specifically looking for a website liason to work with Canonical.
[01:05] <Pendulum> But I know things can get busy and life happens.
[01:06] <Pendulum> And I'm sorry I have not stayed on top of things, I just thought they were getting worked on.
[01:08] <hajour> Pendulum,  dont pull it on yourself
[01:09] <hajour> you have already doing very much Pendulum 
[01:09] <hajour> it will be resolved now i think
[01:10] <UndiFineD> Pendulum: you are doing great!
[01:10] <Pendulum> I appreciate the sentiment, but obviously on this I wasn't so great since I thought some of these things were getting fixed months ago.
[01:10] <Pendulum> it happens. I'm not going to beat myself up about it, just have to do better next time.
[01:11] <hajour> we just stay trying to chance things . 
[01:11] <UndiFineD> Pendulum: you cannot control other peoples doings
[01:11] <UndiFineD> Pendulum: if they prioritise differently
[01:11] <hajour> just new page by sort of speaking
[01:12] <hajour> Pendulum, ^
[01:13] <hajour> and Pendulum  have a good night :)
[01:13] <UndiFineD> there is so much work that can be done in accessibility, and there are so little people that are doing it
[01:14] <phillw> Pendulum: you do outstanding work.
[01:14] <UndiFineD> we must be grateful for all the help we get and accept that the list grows and not all things get done on the timescale we wish
[01:21] <phillw> hajour: you habe email regarding what UndiFineD and charlie-tca were chatting about.
[01:22] <hajour> looking
[01:22] <phillw> one of these days, they'll just sack me :P
[01:23] <UndiFineD> hell no
[01:23] <hajour> good phillw :)
[01:24] <phillw> hajour: Fabian happens to be TL for chromium :D
[01:25] <hajour> phillw the 1 from the unbuntu with red/orange design is that the new onde s ?
[01:25] <hajour> onde=one
[01:25] <hajour> a ok phillw
[01:25] <phillw> yeah, they did a re-branding excersise
[01:26] <hajour> well the new one is much harder to read phillw then the old one
[01:27] <hajour> so i am not very happy with it
[01:27] <phillw> indeed it is
[01:27] <hajour> the fonts are much smaller
[01:27] <phillw> and nor am I
[01:30] <hajour> also the fonts are not clear to read what is placed in the red area s
[01:30] <hajour> phillw ^
[07:09] <AlanBell> interesting conversation above
[07:09] <AlanBell> my view is the focus of the accessibility team is on accessibility in Ubuntu
[07:10] <AlanBell> so that is stuff that goes on the disk, use of the disk, the frameworks like GTK and QT
[07:10] <AlanBell> educating developers building on Ubuntu how to not break those features
[07:10] <AlanBell> and also making sure the Ubuntu web assets are not wildly broken
[07:11] <AlanBell> to that end I have been working on some wiki bugs, I want to get a meeting with Alejandre and Ivanka and the design team in Millbank
[07:12] <AlanBell> my patches have not all been accepted, bits have been cherry picked from them
[07:12] <AlanBell> I asked about this and apparently there is a new theme going to be released soon
[07:12] <AlanBell> 15:42 < newz2000> AlanBell: hey, there's been some big changes to the wiki theme, I've got to get thigns a bit organized, tomorrow I will set it up so that you can see  what's going on. We've incorporated a lot of the suggested enhancements.
[07:12] <AlanBell> that was yesterday
[07:14] <AlanBell> almost all websites can have their font sizes increased by pressing ctrl +
[07:14] <AlanBell> or holding ctrl and moving the mouse wheel
[07:15] <AlanBell> and that works *fine* on jonobacon.org
[07:15] <AlanBell> another way to read such websites is to use the RSS feed in your favourite accessible feed reader
[07:17] <AlanBell> hajour: an eeepc screen is not really a suitable device for a visually impaired user to read lots of text
[07:18] <AlanBell> larger external monitors can be found on ebay for around €20
[07:21] <hajour> well AlanBell  just like many i even not have 20  euro to spend on that
[07:21] <AlanBell> try freecycle
[07:21] <hajour> also there is no possibility to put a screen on this 1
[07:21] <AlanBell> I actually got a monitor for £10
[07:22] <hajour> AlanBell,  i have support sometimes to pay my medicines
[07:22] <hajour> because else i cant pay them
[07:23] <hajour> there are they s i not eat more then 1 meal so my kids have food
[07:23] <hajour> they s=days
[07:24] <hajour> if i got 10 euro then that will spend on food ,medication, travel money for to come to hospital
[07:24] <AlanBell> try freecycle then
[07:25] <maco> hajour: does ctrl+ not make text bigger in chromium?
[07:25] <hajour> what is freecycle ?
[07:25] <maco> if not, maybe you should use a more accessible browser
[07:25] <maco> i can zoom text HUGE on firefox
[07:25] <hajour> i have chromium
[07:25] <AlanBell> http://groups.freecycle.org/Amsterdam_Freecycle/description
[07:26] <AlanBell> chromium works fine
[07:26] <maco> hajour: it has to have a way to zoom text bigger
[07:27] <maco> thats a pretty standard thing
[07:27] <hajour> all the groups are far AlanBell 
[07:28] <hajour> 3 hours travel at least
[07:28] <hajour> its not working on all site s maco
[07:29] <hajour> i am not stupid i have try that :(
[07:30] <hajour> AlanBell,  i am not allowed to drive because of health issues .there by we not even can pay a car 
[07:30] <AlanBell> I understand that
[07:30] <AlanBell> I would find the eeepc screen uncomfortable if it was my main computer
[07:31] <AlanBell> I stopped using a netbook because of the screen
[07:31] <hajour> yesterday i been to hospital with my daughter with train and buses 4 hours to it and 4 hours back
[07:31] <AlanBell> I have no vision problems, just couldn't fit enough stuff on the screen
[07:31] <AlanBell> what I am trying to do is identify and fix the main problem you have with your computer
[07:31] <AlanBell> I have identified that the problem is the screen, now I am trying to fix it
[07:32] <AlanBell> where in the netherlands are you?
[07:32] <hajour> it was a emergency solution because my old pc was complete broke 
[07:32] <AlanBell> I guessed Amsterdam
[07:32] <hajour> ureterp 
[07:32] <hajour> in friesland
[07:33] <hajour> no i have lived in amsterdam but that was a shelter home 
[07:33] <hajour> 2 years
[07:33] <hajour> but i appreciate that you try to help AlanBell 
[07:34] <AlanBell> your eeepc does have a vga port right?
[07:34] <hajour> broke or break the pc i not complete sure which word it is
[07:35] <hajour> i don't no why UndiFineD  have tryed to get a screen on it 
[07:35] <hajour> UndiFineD,  knows why it cant
[07:35] <maco> hmm i find it odd that chromium cant zoom on certain webpages
[07:35] <maco> you sure its not worth trying firefox? its zoomed on every page ive tried
[07:36] <hajour> me was said to use chromium i not no why anymore
[07:37] <hajour> i use lubuntu
[07:37] <hajour> because my eeepc could not handle ubuntu
[07:37] <maco> firefox doesnt care that its lxde...
[07:38] <hajour> UndiFineD,  knows all from what using and why
[07:38] <hajour> there was no time to explain because it was must to do fast
[07:39] <hajour> the meetings 3  where coming and i needed the eeepc
[07:39] <hajour> and to load ubuntu or lubuntu the eeepc need 24 hours for only the basic things
[07:40] <hajour> even with lubuntu i need to be careful with chat and webbrowser at the same time
[07:41] <hajour> else i get screen freeze
[07:41] <hajour> i can have it open but not load a page
[07:41] <hajour> so open need to stay open
[07:46] <hajour> btw AlanBell  what you found of my suggestion to put a vid/record like spoken book in the pages from the language lessons by example or other classes ?
[07:47] <hajour> on the ubuntu sites 
[07:47] <AlanBell> like http://screencasts.ubuntu.com/
[07:49] <AlanBell> lubuntu seems a bit broken, it doesn't include speech dispatcher and when I installed it there was no actual sound
[07:53] <AlanBell> hajour: what was your old computer and which bit broke?
[07:54] <hajour> motherboard was broke
[07:54] <AlanBell> was it a laptop?
[07:55] <hajour> no a pc what i had from gift from someone
[07:56] <AlanBell> so it had a separate screen? why not use that?
[07:56] <hajour> it cant on this eeepc
[07:56] <hajour> undifined have tried that
[07:57] <AlanBell> ok, what size is the screen and do you know why it didn't work?
[07:57] <AlanBell> do the plugs fit?
[07:57] <hajour> i had first a 21 inch screen
[07:58] <AlanBell> perfect
[07:58] <hajour> no i dont no why
[08:00] <AlanBell> ok, well lets find out from UndiFineD later what bits you have that work and what bits you need to put together a suitable computer for your needs
[08:01] <leoquant> hajour, could you take advantage of the dutch ubuntu/contact persons in your region? They could help you also. there are several members livning in friesland
[08:01] <leoquant> (dooitze/sense/akke)
[08:02] <leoquant> you could also ask for hardware on the dutch forum
[08:02] <leoquant> : vraag/aanbod
[08:03] <hajour> leoquant, and if i find something how i get it here then?
[08:03] <leoquant> over 1 week there is a vacation periode some members will have more time to help you
[08:03] <leoquant> hajour, on the dutch forum?
[08:04] <hajour> yes i go  look
[08:04] <leoquant> ask what you want
[08:04] <leoquant> many people have done that before you
[08:05] <hajour> they had say i get a laptop from ubuntu phillw have asked or it was treu and said i would get it but that is a couple of weeks ago and i have not heard from it any more
[08:05] <leoquant> you have to register on the forum
[08:06] <leoquant> otherwise you dont see : vraag/aanbod
[08:06] <hajour> yes i will do that leoquant 
[08:07] <leoquant> hajour, maybe someone has a laptop for 30/50 euro, you never know if you dont ask
[08:07] <hajour> btw if i had money i had buy a bed i now already sleeping more then a week on the sofa because my bed is broken
[08:07] <hajour> i have no 30 of 50 euro
[08:08] <leoquant> your city has a depart called wmo, you could ask them for additional help
[08:08] <hajour> i only build up depths 
[08:08] <leoquant> wet maatschappelijke ondersteuning
[08:08] <hajour> no because i am starting living together with UndiFineD 
[08:09] <leoquant> ah ok ツ
[08:09] <hajour> they say i am not allowed to get it because i have not been 3 years after each other in well fear
[08:09] <leoquant> i hope you two will be happy together!
[08:09] <hajour> UndiFineD,  had a job the first 3 months we live together
[08:09] <hajour> we are
[08:10] <hajour> we are now more then a year living together
[08:11] <leoquant> ok
[08:11] <hajour> so because there was a break from 3 months there came money in a few hunderd euro s more i have no rechten ? anymore on things
[08:12] <hajour> leoquant, ^
[08:12] <leoquant> yeah the wmo works that way hajour 
[08:12] <hajour> i don't no the word with writhing
[08:12] <hajour> well thats live 
[08:13] <leoquant> i ĺl see you on the dutch forum hajour with a message on vraag/aanbod
[08:13] <leoquant> ok?
[08:14] <hajour> AlanBell,  >>> they had say i get a laptop from ubuntu phillw have asked or it was treu and said i would get it but that is a couple of weeks ago and i have not heard from it any more
[08:15] <AlanBell> I have no idea what you mean
[08:15] <hajour> so i don't now if its now going to happen or not
[08:15] <AlanBell> if you mean a laptop from Canonical, no, they don't do that.
[08:15] <hajour> ask phillw
[08:16] <hajour> was not from canonical AlanBell 
[08:16] <hajour> ok leoquant 
[08:17] <leoquant> ubuntu=canonical afaik
[08:17] <hajour> afaik-?
[08:17] <hajour> = i mean
[08:17] <leoquant> as far as i know
[08:17] <AlanBell> Ubuntu is a project and community, Canonical is the main sponsor and contributor to Ubuntu.
[08:17] <hajour> i  also not now how enz
[08:18] <hajour> just ask phillw
[08:18] <hajour> btw i have not ask for it AlanBell 
[08:19] <hajour> it was told to me AlanBell 
[08:19] <hajour> in open chat
[08:19] <hajour> phillw have checkt
[08:19] <hajour> and said it was treu
[08:26] <hajour> i need to go i have a appointment so i do the forum later leoquant 
[08:28] <leoquant> ok hajour 
[14:04] <UndiFineD> AlanBell: I tried to hook up an external monitor to the eeepc, but when booted it does not respond
[14:05] <UndiFineD> no Idea on startup, as I barely get to see that :)
[14:05] <UndiFineD> now, the i915 is known to be problematic
[14:15] <JackyAlcine> UndiFineD: Is there a key combination to switch output to the external monitor?
[14:16] <UndiFineD> JackyAlcine: yes there is, unforunatly it did now respond to that
[14:16] <UndiFineD> now
[14:16] <UndiFineD> not*
[14:16] <JackyAlcine> Very odd.
[14:18] <UndiFineD> it is a paperweight suitable for note taking
[14:19] <JackyAlcine> :D
[14:19]  * JackyAlcine AFK be back around an hour.
[15:32] <maco> UndiFineD: the key combo doesnt work on one of my laptops, but using the xrandr command does
[15:35] <UndiFineD> ok
[15:35] <UndiFineD> maybe it deserves another look
[15:35] <UndiFineD> :)
[15:39] <AlanBell> i915 isn't that bad
[15:39] <AlanBell> is it an atom chip on that eeepc?
[15:45] <UndiFineD> yes
[15:45] <UndiFineD> and it has many bugs
[19:20] <erkan^> http://www.linux-archive.org/ubuntu-user/404252-ubuntu-visually-impaired.html
[19:21] <JackyAlcine> Who puts down USD$100 that this is why Qt is doing bad in ATK?
[19:21] <JackyAlcine> http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/46848/qts-future-in-the-light-of-nokia-microsoft-partnership
[19:40] <JanC> JackyAlcine: I doubt that has anything to do with it
[19:41] <JackyAlcine> Well, Qt itself isn't what it used to be, and that's a programmer's perspective.
[19:42] <JackyAlcine> I used it before I came over to Linux, and it *used* to be the best cross-platform toolkit.
[19:42] <JanC> JackyAlcine: from talking to KDE people who want to support a11y, it seems like at least one reason they can't is that at-spi2 was delayed (and at-spi2 is more or less a in *GNOME* project)
[19:42] <JackyAlcine> hm.
[19:43] <JackyAlcine> It should be a FreeDesktop project, then.
[19:43] <JanC> and they didn't work on implementing support for at-spi1 because the move to the new API was supposed to happen 1 year ago  ;)
[19:43] <JanC> it is an fd.o project now, but most of the main developers come from GNOME
[19:45] <JanC> so it's at least partially an unfortunate combination of circumstances  ;)
[19:45] <JanC> of course Qt *was* late to start implementing a11y on linux
[19:46] <JackyAlcine> hmmmm
[19:46] <JanC> but fro mwhat I can tell Qt/KDE developers are certainly willing to do so
[19:46]  * JackyAlcine leaves a skeptic eye.
[19:46] <JanC> not necessarily as in Nokia wants to pay for it, but...
[19:46] <JackyAlcine> I'm a firm lover of the foot. :D
[19:49] <JanC> Nokia should split off TrollTech (Qt) and their MeeGo division into separate companies that can do agile development instead of the bureaucratic mess they are now  ;)
[19:49] <AlanBell> don't think they will
[19:50] <JanC> maybe even splitt of a couple of semi-independent phone design companies that can internally compete
[19:50] <AlanBell> I think they will sit on them for a few years just in case they end up competing against Nokia/Microsoft
[19:51] <AlanBell> they don't want to compete
[19:51] <AlanBell> they want to disrupt
[19:51] <JanC> like Intel did with their 2 or 3 CPU design groups
[19:51] <JackyAlcine> AlanBell: I second that though. I've been doing my best to follow TrollTech and Nokia, and progress is not in their agenda.
[19:52] <JanC> which saw the small group that worked on the Pentium M win from the big group that designed the P4...  ;-)
[19:54] <JanC> I won't be surprised if KDE develoeprs fork Qt if needed
[19:55] <JanC> I'm not really a fan of KDE or Qt, you know, but for masochists who like C++ it's a good toolkit AFAIK  ;)
[19:59] <maco> JanC: neither would i, though last i heard there was talk of rolling kdelibs *into* qt
[20:00] <JackyAlcine> JanC: Not even; GTKmm's use of the STL and reusing other software tools like (gstreamer, sigc++) makes it pretty fantastic to me. and like it's a bit odd compiling a Qt library to an non-Qt app, too much overheard.
[20:00] <maco> dunno how "wouldnt it be neat if..." that was, though
[20:00] <JackyAlcine> *overhead.
[20:01] <JanC> JackyAlcine: well, Murray Cumming will be happy to hear that  ;)
[20:02] <JanC> (he's been a main promotor of gtkmm in the past AFAIK)