[06:32] <jessedhammu> anyone using koha...?
[13:51] <dantalizing> morning
[13:52] <dantalizing> has anyone managed to get SSDs working?  I'm on my 2nd attempt to get an ssd going and neither has worked.
[13:56] <dantalizing> everyone asleep, or no one using ssd?
[14:07] <reya276> Morning everyone
[14:20] <DammitJim> morning
[14:20] <DammitJim> dantalizing, what is ssd?
[14:20] <RoAkSoAx> dantalizing: i don't yet have an SSD, but for what I've heard, people has had a really bad time with non-intel SSD's
[14:20] <DammitJim> is ssd that good?
[14:21] <dantalizing> solid state drive = ssd
[14:21] <RoAkSoAx> dantalizing: and you have to boot the kernel with the NOOP scheduler I think
[14:21] <dantalizing> RoAkSoAx: :( ... i've seen people mention using this particular drive online so thought i'd be safe
[14:24] <dantalizing> DammitJim: when i booted up with a live cd and tested the ssd with 'Disk Utility' ... i was getting average of 264MB/s read performance
[14:24] <dantalizing> so .. yeah, it'd be nice to get working
[14:24] <dantalizing> especially for my underpowered laptop
[14:24] <DammitJim> how does that compare to regular hdds?
[14:26] <reya276> DammitJim, SSD's have no moving parts so it makes the data transactions much faster than say a regular HD, at least that is what I've been told.
[14:26] <dantalizing> DammitJim: i'll check my old hd and let you know
[14:32] <DammitJim> is that what the cr-48 has?
[14:32] <DammitJim> that thing boots up FAST!
[14:32] <maxolasersquad> You have to be careful when buying an SSD.  The cheaper SSDs do not have a signifanct performance gain over regulard hds
[14:33] <maxolasersquad> The higher quality ones have amazing read/write, which can give you all sorts of great performance gains on your system.
[14:34] <DammitJim> how about how many times you can write to these fellas?
[14:35] <dantalizing> maxolasersquad: mine seems to be performing really really slowly as a boot device
[14:35] <dantalizing> DammitJim: remember these timings are from my laptop
[14:36] <dantalizing> and the SSD that i bought supports SATA6, but is being used in a SATA3 controller
[14:36] <DammitJim> dantalizing, why? get a SATA6 controller, then!
[14:36] <dantalizing> DammitJim: my WD Scorpio Black 320GB hd is giving me avg read rate of 89.3 MB/s
[14:36] <DammitJim> :-P
[14:36] <DammitJim> holy cow
[14:37] <dantalizing> so almost 3 times better
[14:37] <DammitJim> the question there is... when is this important?
[14:37] <DammitJim> bootup times? starting apps?
[14:37] <dantalizing> its important when your CPU is a ULV2700
[14:37] <dantalizing> :)
[14:37] <maxolasersquad> DammitJim: It should increase boot up times, application load times, large file saving, etc.
[14:38] <dantalizing> i had originally bought the WD drive because it had gotten good performance reviews ... so other laptop HDs are probably slower still
[14:39] <DammitJim> oh, if someone has something slow... that'll be me
[14:39] <dantalizing> well so far the SSD is much slower because it doesnt work  :)
[14:39] <jck77> hello good morning
[14:40] <dantalizing> morning jck77 
[14:41] <DammitJim> I love gtasks :)
[14:48] <dantalizing> DammitJim: what is gtasks?
[15:00] <DammitJim> synchronized tasks on google
[15:00] <DammitJim> so, on your gmail on the browser, you can do your tasks
[15:00] <DammitJim> and on android, you can use gtasks to manage them, too
[15:01] <dantalizing> found it ... installing :)
[15:01] <dantalizing> i'm still married to GotToDo
[15:02] <dantalizing> syncs with toodledo.com and then back to my legacy desktop tasks
[15:05] <dantalizing> gtasks looks cool
[15:05] <dantalizing> i wonder if i can sync google tasks with legacy groupware systems
[15:07] <maxolasersquad> DammitJim: There's seems to be a few apps named gtasks ,which is the one you use?
[15:07] <maxolasersquad> The one from Dato?
[15:13] <dantalizing> maxolasersquad: thats the one i installed
[15:29] <DammitJim> si, dato
[16:17] <reya276> is the package called qemu-kvm, the virtual machine app to run Windows, just like vitualbox?
[16:22] <dantalizing> reya276: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WindowsXPUnderQemuHowTo
[16:23] <reya276> thanks, dan. VirtualBox it is then
[16:54] <dorgan> mhall119: ping
[17:12] <mhall119> dorgan: on a call, give me 30
[17:32] <mhall119> dorgan: okay
[17:32] <dorgan> mhall119: you see the developer preview for Ext4?
[17:32] <mhall119> yeah, I downloaded it yesterday
[17:33] <dorgan> I am disappointed that the theme i saw at the conference wasnt included...as well as the compatibility file wasnt included either
[17:33] <mhall119> haven't played with it yet
[17:33] <DammitJim> what the heck is a: Seagate Solid State Hybrid Drive?
[17:33] <dorgan> other than thats its great
[17:34] <mhall119> dorgan: I'm excited about the new data model
[17:34] <dantalizing> DammitJim: that hybrid drive is pretty cool
[17:34] <dorgan> yeah...will make things much easier
[17:34] <mhall119> it looks like it'll work really well with Django
[17:38] <dantalizing> dorgan: mhall119 i'm guessing yall dont get the feeling extjs is getting too big?
[17:38] <dorgan> nope
[17:38] <dorgan> I went to the conference...the company is growing but the mentality is staying the same..no matter which project it is
[17:38] <dantalizing> seems like they want to cover everyones problem with their api
[17:39] <dorgan> I mean I sat and had a conversation with Abe the day before the conference
[17:39] <dantalizing> which may be fine
[17:39] <mhall119> dantalizing: if they want to cover all my problems, I'm cool with that
[17:39] <dorgan> dantalizing: its not that they want to cover problems....they want to make it easy for developers to develop
[17:39] <dorgan> and not have to worry about the problems
[17:39] <mhall119> I'm not sure I'd use ExtJS for a high-traffic website, but for corporate intranets it's fine
[17:39] <dantalizing> until it gets to the point where if you want to use their json, you have to use their datastorage and you can only get it out into thier datagrid
[17:40] <mhall119> personally, I like ExtJS's api design much better than jquery's
[17:40] <dorgan> ExtJS is not for websites....its for Web applications....
[17:40] <dantalizing> personally, i'm done with single vendor APIs
[17:40] <dantalizing> been burned by them back in the Java days
[17:40] <dorgan> dantalizing: all of there datamodels are extensible you can create your own adapters...and use your model with their stuff
[17:40] <dantalizing> everyone trying to make java easier back then
[17:41] <mhall119> it's impossible to make java easier
[17:41] <dorgan> with  ExtJS4 that will be even easier
[17:41] <dorgan> yeah java is java
[17:41] <dantalizing> mhall119: go back to 1996 - 1998 and you cant say that
[17:42] <mhall119> it's funny, so many people have said to themselves "Java is too complicated. I know! Lets throw XML into the mix!"
[17:42] <dantalizing> before jdbc
[17:42] <dantalizing> before j2ee
[17:42] <dantalizing> anyways
[17:42] <mhall119> there was a time before jdbc?
[17:42] <mhall119> I mean, I remember the dark days before collections
[17:42] <mhall119> but I thought they still had jdbc
[17:43] <dantalizing> and before swing became usable
[17:43] <dantalizing> as much as it can be called "usable"
[17:44]  * mhall119 liked Swing
[17:49] <dorgan> but no i definitely do not think the company is getting to big
[17:49] <dantalizing> not the company, the api
[17:50] <dorgan> no the api is great
[17:50] <dorgan> i love the api
[17:52] <dorgan> and with ext4 you can selectively load parts of the api or your application on demand...so those worried about the initial page load time can do so...in my opinion if your creating a full web application then expect people to be on broadband using it....if you create a webpage that uses a datagrid then you only need to include the core/data/ and datagrid components and leave everything else out
[17:54] <dorgan> and at least with EXT vs jQuery & JQueryUI its all unified...and all made by the same people...it all works together'
[17:54] <dorgan> i mean look how long its taken jQueryUI to say ok we're going to make a datagrid
[17:54] <dantalizing> dorgan: i'm just worried is all ... they expand, tighten the licenses, everyone flees, i'm stuck knowing a framework that is irrelevent .. again
[17:55] <dantalizing> jquery definitely needs work
[17:55] <dorgan> this ones sticking around
[17:55] <dantalizing> no arguments
[17:55] <dantalizing> lets see
[17:55] <dantalizing> it may very well stick around
[17:55] <dorgan> they've got the venture capital backing them
[17:55] <dorgan> its because around fore almost 4 years now
[17:55] <dorgan> so i'd call that sticking around
[17:55] <dantalizing> but if its only used by the Ford's and BankOfAmerica's of the world, i could care less
[17:56] <dorgan> http://www.sencha.com/company/customers/
[17:57] <dorgan> there are some pretty big names on the list
[17:57] <dantalizing> yeah well... customer lists are a joke ... we all know that .. but i think the 'big names' is exactly my point
[17:57] <dorgan> i got the company I work for hooked on it...as well as the company before that
[17:57] <dantalizing> how many open source projects are using it?
[17:57] <dantalizing> i know there are a couple
[17:58] <dorgan> i am working on two open source projects that are using it
[17:58] <dorgan> granted I started those projects...but they're using it
[17:58] <dantalizing> :)
[17:58] <dorgan> Typo3 is using it
[17:59] <dorgan> i am sure if you join #extjs and ask of open source projects using Ext depending on whos in there you'll get back a decent list
[17:59] <dantalizing> i didnt mean to run over your cat .... i loved it early ... it was a better yui ... just getting more uncomfortable with it lately
[17:59] <dorgan> in what way?
[18:01] <dantalizing> making a framework for every problem in the world ... catering to the "Sony BMG" and "Lehman Brothers" of the world 
[18:01] <dorgan> ok so you'd rather pull your hair out trying to create your own datagrid that looks almost pixel perfect from browser to browser?
[18:02] <dantalizing> lol
[18:02] <dantalizing> you dont have to get defensive
[18:02] <dantalizing> enjoy ext
[18:02] <dorgan> I am not it was a general question
[18:02] <dorgan> lol
[18:02] <mhall119> dantalizing: it seems to me that ExtJS is just trying to be the Qt of the web
[18:02] <dorgan> :)
[18:02] <dorgan> sorry if it sounds defensive
[18:03] <dorgan> just trying to find out what you would like to do yourself vs having a framework do
[18:03] <dantalizing> i would js itself to be improved
[18:03] <mhall119> good luck with that
[18:03] <dantalizing> yeah :(
[18:03] <dantalizing> its and open standard! </sarcasm>
[18:04] <dantalizing> s/d//
[18:04] <mhall119> I agree, the common parts of ExtJS and jQuery should be part of Javascript itself
[18:04] <mhall119> "its an open stanar!" ??
[18:04] <dorgan> and then have MS and all the other browser makers...follow that standard
[18:04] <dorgan> the problem is not JS
[18:05] <dantalizing> no i didnt put /g so it only replaces the first d
[18:05] <dorgan> its things such as IE6 that dont follow the standard
[18:05] <dantalizing> agree ... lets quit enabling them
[18:05] <maxolasersquad> mhall119: ++
[18:05] <dorgan> or implement key things, or change how those functions behave
[18:05] <dorgan> I honestly wish that everyone in the would could do just that
[18:05] <mhall119> dantalizing: ah, right you are
[18:05]  * mhall119 fails regex
[18:06] <dorgan> but even still you have MS saying hey IE9 supports HTML5......when the truth is it supports their implementation of HTML5.....and when they say it passed HTML5 tests...it passed their tests
[18:06] <mhall119> dorgan: heck, MS Office doesn't even fully support their new XML format
[18:07] <dorgan> shit like that will never go away.....and luckily frameworks like ExtJS and jQuery/jQueryUI are there to unify functions/support
[18:07] <dorgan> oops sorry for than language
[18:10] <mhall119> it's okay, you're allowed to say jQuery
[18:10] <maxolasersquad> I don't know if anyone saw the blog post, LibreOffice refers to the standard implemented in Office as MOX, to distinguish it from the ISO standard.
[18:10] <dorgan> lol
[18:10] <dantalizing> lol mhall119 
[18:11] <dantalizing> jquery is the framework you love to hate and hate to love
[18:11] <dorgan> exactly and MS is allowed to get away with saying hey we follow standards...and disguise it as "the standards" when it fact its their own standards
[18:11] <dantalizing> all of the $.() make me feel dirty
[18:11] <mhall119> at least we can all agree that Prototype sucks, right?
[18:12] <mhall119> dantalizing: me too, I use jQuery.() or whatever the verbose way is
[18:12] <dorgan> hey when i dont need to build a full web application and i just need to do some simple stuff such as ajax and hide/show fade in/out stuff i use jquery...guess i could probably Ext Code...but I use jQuery
[18:12] <dantalizing> i dont think ext sucks at all ... i really really like it .... just ... getting that smarmy feeling creeping in ....
[18:12] <dantalizing> sux0r3d that i missed sencha con
[18:12] <reya276> ProtoType? Why don't you just use Spry or EXT
[18:12] <dantalizing> and jsconf !boo!
[18:12] <dorgan> sencha con was amazing
[18:13] <dantalizing> i'm **really** hating missing jsconf/nodeconf
[18:13] <reya276> or Why not just use JQuery
[18:13] <mhall119> they need to have one of those in the south east
[18:13] <dorgan> sencha as a company is amazing...all those projects that they brought into sencha labs...not only did they keep the projects going but for the most part have an 80/20 rule with the developers....80% developing sencha projects and 20% developing the open source stuff
[18:14] <dantalizing> otoh, i get to go drink beer with zbrown at google io :)))
[18:14] <mhall119> lucky
[18:14] <dorgan> what company do you know that allows you to work on your pet projects and get paid for it
[18:14] <dantalizing> th3 g00gl3
[18:14] <dantalizing> but yeah
[18:15] <dantalizing> actually hp/palm is doing the same with dave balmer, the developer of joapp
[18:15] <dantalizing> jo is also cool, btw
[18:15] <dantalizing> young and rough
[18:15] <dantalizing> but cool
[18:16] <dantalizing> i still say we need to get crashsystems and jamalta also so we can do a retro florida ubuntu hour in SF
[18:16] <mhall119> +1
[18:23] <maxolasersquad> We should get every good/progressive developer we know, move to the same city, and start our own software company.
[18:23] <maxolasersquad> We just need an idea for a killer app.
[18:23] <dantalizing> i vote gainesville
[18:24] <maxolasersquad> Gainesville does sound like a great idea for an app.
[18:24] <dantalizing> see
[18:25] <dantalizing> i'm gonna go prototype it in Prototype
[18:25] <maxolasersquad> Nice.
[18:25] <dantalizing> and ecmascript 2
[18:26] <crashsystems> san jose would be a good place for such a company
[18:26] <dantalizing> state taxes will take all of our profits
[18:26] <dantalizing> plus, next week there will be no state services
[18:27] <maxolasersquad> The bay area already has too many of those companies.
[18:27] <crashsystems> but it has better food than gville. thats the important thing
[18:28] <dantalizing> crashsystems obviously never made it to the McDonalds at University & Waldo
[18:28] <crashsystems> lol
[18:29]  * crashsystems shakes fist at $internal_tool
[18:29] <reya276> mhall119, how can I do this "REPLACE(Provider_Name, ' ', '')  + '_' + REPLACE(ProviderID, ' ', '') + '_' + GET_FORMAT(DATE,'USA') AS PDF" in MYSQL?
[18:31] <mhall119> I wouldn't do that in MySQL
[18:34] <crashsystems> why must sites go down right as I try to test them?
[18:34] <dantalizing> crashsystems: i think you're mixing up cause and effect
[18:34] <crashsystems> nah, not at all
[18:35] <mhall119> crashsystems: isn't it your job to take sites down?
[18:35] <crashsystems> no, our goal is to be production safe
[18:36]  * mhall119 isn't sure crashsystems is production safe
[18:36] <reya276> mhall119, actually it would be something like this "TRIM(Provider_Name)
[18:36] <reya276>     + '_' + TRIM(ProviderID) + '_' + CURDATE() AS PDF"
[18:36] <crashsystems> I'm fairly certain I'm _not_ production safe
[18:37] <reya276> right now the only thing that show as the PDF column is some weird numbers
[18:37] <mhall119> reya276: general rule of thumb is that databases suck at text manipulation
[18:38] <reya276> so there is no way in MYSQL to add columns together and add '_' to them?
[18:40] <dantalizing> reya276: you have the right character set?
[18:41] <maxolasersquad> Use CONCAT to concatenate
[18:41] <maxolasersquad> http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.0/en/string-functions.html#function_concat
[18:41] <maxolasersquad> Use TRIM to remove leading and trailling whitespace.
[18:43] <maxolasersquad> REPLACE(CONCAT(Provider_Name, '_', ProviderID, '_', GET_FORMAT(DATE, 'USA')), ' ', '') AS PDF
[18:44] <maxolasersquad> Something like that, based on the MySQL documentation, should work.
[18:44] <reya276> right, I'm Using TRIM which is great
[18:44] <reya276> oh so you don't need the + like in MS SQL Server, awesome
[18:48] <maxolasersquad> I'd prefer a concatenation character over the function
[18:49] <reya276> thanks
[18:50] <reya276> CURDATE() did the trick
[18:50] <reya276> oh wow the syntax in MYSQL is way more simplified than MS SQL SERVER
[18:52] <dantalizing> you should use mariadb reya276 
[18:52] <dantalizing> :)
[18:52] <reya276> any particular reason
[18:53] <dantalizing> larry ellison
[18:54] <dantalizing> mariadb's community mananger presented at FLS 
[18:54] <dantalizing> great guy
[18:55] <dantalizing> used to work at canonical before working for mariadb
[18:55] <maxolasersquad> At this time, I feel, it is a touch decision between mariadb and mysql.
[18:56] <maxolasersquad> Since Maria is a dropin at present it's not a big deal, but as it diverges, which way will the broad support go?
[18:56] <dantalizing> same here ... 
[18:56] <dantalizing> i *want* to use maria .. but will it work down the road???
[18:57] <maxolasersquad> I'd expect maria will still work, but will the broad base of tools that work on MySQL, work wtih Maria, or will it have its own broad support?
[18:57] <dantalizing> they need to get wordpress and drupal to make maria a default option
[19:12] <reya276> Wait, So the dude's from MYSQL sold it to SUN then SUN sold it to ORACLE and this is Larry Ellison's fault how, If anything I would be pissed at the dudes who sold it in the first place
[19:13] <reya276> So then they go back to reinvent the whole FOSS thing with MariaDB, Yeah they can keep it.
[19:14] <dantalizing> sun didnt sell it to oracle .. oracle bought sun
[19:14] <maxolasersquad> reya276: ??? Who was getting mad at Larry?
[19:15] <reya276> whatever, still I would be pissed at the MYSQL GUYS whome sold it in the first place, if money was not then issue then why sell it?
[19:15] <dantalizing> and this isnt a protest of them selling it ... its a question of do you trust oracle
[19:15] <dantalizing> do you trust larry
[19:15] <dantalizing> and fwiw, sun bought mysqlab
[19:15] <reya276> I'm not saying anyone is mad at Larry, I'm simply making a statement
[19:16] <dantalizing> monty was working for sun
[19:16] <dantalizing> until he decided they sucked
[19:16] <dantalizing> he didnt just sell and take the $ and run
[19:16] <dantalizing> all of the development team went to sun
[19:16] <dantalizing> one by one most of them left
[19:16] <dantalizing> maybe not "most", but a lot
[19:17] <reya276> I don't trust either of them, one because the first project was sold by the same guys I think, I could be wrong and ORACLE are just crooks so is not a WIN WIN for me
[19:18] <reya276> whatever the case it MYSQL should have remained part of FOSS and it did not which brings me to my point what is to say MariaDB wont end up the same way
[19:18] <dantalizing> well put another way .. mariadb is full gpl, mysql is now dual licensed, with the good stuff going to commercial customers
[19:18] <maxolasersquad> reya276: FWIW I would have sold it in a heartbeat.  All sun really bought was the rights to the name.  The code is still FLOSS.
[19:18] <maxolasersquad> As demonstrated by the MariaDB project.
[19:19] <maxolasersquad> SUN paid those guys a billion dollars for a name.
[19:19] <reya276> OK so if the code still FLOSS what the hell is all the fuzz about
[19:19] <dantalizing> thre was no fuzz until you got all worked up
[19:19] <maxolasersquad> What dantalizing just said, Oracle is adding none FOSS bits on top of MySQL and selling an "enterprise" version.
[19:19] <dantalizing> i trust monty more than i trust larry
[19:20] <reya276> oh I'm not worked up, why you guys always think that, I'm just from NYC that's all
[19:20] <dantalizing> lo
[19:20] <dantalizing> l
[19:21] <maxolasersquad> :)
[19:21] <reya276> no seriously I could care less if it's MYSQL or MariaDB because at some point someone is going to stop or continue to do something for either one, so I really don't care as for Larry, he needs to give me some reparations money for all my FOSS suffering.
[19:22] <dantalizing> lol
[19:22] <reya276> well its tru darn it, nothing but tears using MSSQL for 5 years
[19:24] <reya276> man until yesterday I finally realized what a piece of JUNK MSSQL is wow it is insane the folks whom use it
[19:25] <maxolasersquad> That worst part of MsSQL is its cost, and platform dependance.  The actual server itself is only a secondary issue.
[19:27] <maxolasersquad> Dang, we let someone go, and I have to pick up a signifant part of his code.
[19:27] <maxolasersquad> And going through it has given me a headache all day.
[19:28] <maxolasersquad> Every new language, and every update to an old language, should have Python-style blocks.  Make my life easier.
[19:28] <dantalizing> microsoft's best practices always have you tie your code directly to their servers ... which if you follow, makes moving away that much harder .... 
[19:29] <dantalizing> sometimes it makes sense to do that, but many times it doesnt
[19:30] <dantalizing> maxolasersquad: my whole day has been copying huge log files and running sed/uniq/sort/cut on them
[19:30] <dantalizing> compared to the usual project stuff i do, huge win :)
[19:31] <dorgan> anyone in here using solr?
[19:32] <maxolasersquad> dantalizing: fun
[19:32] <maxolasersquad> dorgan: solr=solaris?
[19:32] <dorgan> no apache solr
[19:51] <reya276> yeah that sucks, but what sucks even more is when the person had a poor coding style(when the code is all over the place).
[19:53] <dorgan> oh yeah?
[19:53] <dorgan> how long you gonna be here for?
[19:55] <munz_eee> ?
[19:55] <dantalizing> !
[19:58] <reya276> wow this sucks for us Citizens http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/02/fbi-pushes-for-surveillance-backdoors-in-web-20-tools.ars
[19:59] <reya276> I knew that is why Facebook was so successful they had the FBI and CIA backing them, LOL....
[20:04] <reya276> oh but wait that only hurts those whom runs OSX or Windows right
[20:05] <maxolasersquad> reya276: Yeah, this person does not have good coding practices.
[20:05] <reya276> oh that sucks dude, sorry to hear that
[20:05] <crashsystems> according to what I've read, this would effect any software than enabled "peer-to-peer communications"
[20:05] <reya276> I got a guy on my team whom is like that too his code is allover the place, sometimes not even a comment
[20:05] <crashsystems> so, for example, the OTR extension for pidgin would be effected
[20:07] <reya276> wait but why would it affect it unless the guys whom develop pidgin include a back door or are you saying that the actual protocal is the problem
[20:08] <maxolasersquad> FBI, and the Obama administration, is always pushing for this stuff.  At any given time, they are pushing for a back door law.
[20:08] <maxolasersquad> It is unlikely such a law would pass, or if it did, pass Constitutional muster.
[20:08] <crashsystems> the law, as I've read, would mandate that any communication program or service, including decentralized ones, have "lawful intercept" functionality built in
[20:08] <crashsystems> maxolasersquad: CALA passed
[20:09] <maxolasersquad> Which is?
[20:09] <mhall119> well the FBI can 'lawfully intercept' my encrypted data all it wants
[20:09] <crashsystems> Communication Assistance for Law Enforcement Act, which mandated back doors in all telco equipment and routers.
[20:10] <crashsystems> I also don't see the 4th amendment being a barrier
[20:10] <maxolasersquad> Backdoors for encrypted communication is a different beast.  It is unlikely such a law could even been implemented.
[20:10] <maxolasersquad> crashsystems: Oh, I meant the second amendemtn. :o
[20:10] <crashsystems> the capability to intercept does not infringe on our right to privacy. how they use it determins if there is infringement
[20:11] <maxolasersquad> Yeah, but think about how enforcement would actually work.
[20:11] <crashsystems> the administration is saying that they are not going after the crypto algorithms. really what it looks like they want is to just move the back doors up the stack
[20:11] <maxolasersquad> The government would have to mandate I pass all my keys to them.
[20:12] <crashsystems> no, not if the app using your keys has intercept abilities
[20:12]  * mhall119 will gladly hand over my public keys to them
[20:12] <maxolasersquad> But not all backdoors have any stack higher than the encryption keys.
[20:12] <maxolasersquad> How would you enforce it with ssh?
[20:12] <maxolasersquad> Even ssh itself cannot do anything without my keys that I generated.
[20:12] <crashsystems> ssh could be modified to include a back door (in their magicly pefect world at least)
[20:13] <mhall119> or just comment out the seed generation parts
[20:13] <maxolasersquad> The only backdoor it could include would disallowing secure keys.
[20:13] <crashsystems> as I've read it, thats what the law would mandate - a back door in the application itself, regardless of crypto used
[20:13] <maxolasersquad> The SSH program itself cannot decrypt my code, regardless of any backdoor code, without my keys, as long as my key is strong.
[20:13] <mhall119> good luck enforcing that with open source cryptography tools
[20:14] <crashsystems> well, lets say that there was another key hard coded into it, and the feds had the private key for that
[20:14] <maxolasersquad> This is less enforceable than they countries that mandate pornography filters.  It is technologically impossible.
[20:14] <mhall119> maxolasersquad: the backdoor would be during the encryption phase, not decryption
[20:14] <crashsystems> I agree that enforcing it with open source will be impossible
[20:14] <crashsystems> any attempt to enforce it on OSS would just result in the code moving to foreign servers
[20:15] <mhall119> I can see the compliant ssh build: make --no-fbi-backdoor
[20:15] <maxolasersquad> I don't think the FEDs understand what they are asking for.
[20:15] <crashsystems> lol
[20:15] <crashsystems> do they ever truely understand anything about technology
[20:16] <maxolasersquad> There has to be a middle man for it to work.
[20:16] <crashsystems> who I see this really effecting are large software companies who can't doge by moving to foreign servers.
[20:16] <crashsystems> well, they control the telcos. MITM is easy for them.
[20:16] <maxolasersquad> If there is a backdoor, then the security is broken.  Secure communications in the US would be impossible.  This would be really bad for companies, especially those that are responsible for things like bank transactions.
[20:17] <crashsystems> it would indeed weaken security. that is one of the main arguments against it, as CALA has been proven to weaken telco security
[20:18] <maxolasersquad> Of course terrorists would never use software with the backdoor in it, so it would do nothing for the FBI in respects to legitimate national security concers.
[20:19] <maxolasersquad> And since only software shipped in the USA would have such mechanisms, obtaining such software would be quite easy.
[20:19] <maxolasersquad> It would be hard to imagine anyone outside of the US purchasing US produced software.
[20:20] <maxolasersquad> The whoel security industry would crumble state-side.  So no, I don't think such a law would be possible.
[20:21] <crashsystems> this would effect the whole world, not just the US
[20:21] <maxolasersquad> Yes, when the whole world stops purchasing US Produced software.
[20:21] <dantalizing> except finland
[20:22] <reya276> why finland
[20:22] <crashsystems> telcos in countries like Iran and Egypt have spying capabilities built in, because they were built in by US companies for CALA, and then the same functionality was sold to those nations
[20:22] <dantalizing> reya276: nokia
[20:22] <crashsystems> the US passes this into law, and every other nation will soon demand the same.
[20:25] <dantalizing> this allows them to get around those pesky subpeona's to company's that the company's turn around and notify their users about????
[21:26] <ejv> http://blog.icann.org/2010/12/us-government-opposes-launch-of-new-gtld-program-in-cartagena/ earlier convo made me think of this :)
[21:26] <ejv> (some good commenters)
[21:28] <ejv> http://unifiedroot.com/
[21:29] <maxolasersquad> Is that the movement to make domains more internationalized so that the US government isn't the arbitrator of who gets a name online?
[21:29] <ejv> yea that's the general idea
[21:30] <ejv> icann has been corrupted and is in bed with big business, i think everyone would like to see them move to an organization that's more agnostic/neutral, not necessarily the UN, but an improvement
[21:30] <ejv> we all know how glorious the UN has been in getting things done
[21:31] <ejv> obligatory: http://www.sundialbrowser.com/en/
[21:32] <maxolasersquad> Since the bing countires, namely the US, practically own the UN, it is hard to imagine that as a golden ticket.
[21:32] <ejv> my thoughts exactly :)
[21:32] <ejv> Sundial is a free Internet browser. It has been developed on original source code of Mozilla Firefox.s browser. This is developed by UnifiedRoot which lets you create new top level domain name extension. So, instead of regular ..com., ..org. extensions, your business can create an extension ..honey. if you are in a honey business. This helps in easier brand identification. However, problem with this is that these are not registered by ICANN, so a normal br
[21:33] <ejv> this is a really cool project :)
[21:34] <maxolasersquad> Couldn't a Firefox and Chrome extension enable this same behavior?
[21:34] <ejv> quite possibly
[21:34] <maxolasersquad> Anyho, I'm outta here.
[21:34] <ejv> food for thought ;)
[23:25] <munz> curious, what are you guys doing in terms of disaster recovery plans?
[23:25] <munz> home pc's, laptops, and servers?
[23:38] <ShawnR> anyone here good with bad superblock type issues on fat32?
[23:41] <munz> whats the deal ShawnR ?
[23:42] <ShawnR> wife's sd card on the phone came up saying it was corrupted
[23:42] <ShawnR> i plugged it into my laptop and got bad superblock issues
[23:43] <munz> have u ever used testdisk?
[23:43] <ShawnR> [27539.554455] FAT: bogus number of reserved sectors
[23:43] <ShawnR> [27539.554461] VFS: Can't find a valid FAT filesystem on dev loop0.
[23:43] <ShawnR> testdisk... sounds familiar, but if i have, it has been a while
[23:43] <ShawnR> i was able to dd the entire sd card to an image with no errors
[23:43] <munz> hmmm...
[23:43] <ShawnR> so i think the sd card itself is ok
[23:44] <ShawnR> but i'm just trying to recover now
[23:44] <ShawnR> already got her a new sd card
[23:44] <ShawnR> i tried a fsck.vfat imagename -a -w and it doesn't seem to help
[23:44] <munz> no guarantees but testdisk http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/TestDisk really kicks ass
[23:44] <munz> i have been able to recover lots w/it
[23:45] <munz> dl the linux vr, extract
[23:45] <munz> run as sudo
[23:45] <munz> and have it scan it
[23:45] <munz> could have some luck
[23:46] <ShawnR> can i scan a dd image?
[23:46] <ShawnR> i can't mount the image due to the fs being messed up
[23:46] <munz> not sure
[23:47] <munz> does not appear to be able to
[23:47] <munz> hav not tried
[23:48] <ShawnR> i think i have used testdisc before
[23:48] <ShawnR> i used photorec on a camera's SD card once
[23:48] <munz> it's pretty cool
[23:48] <ShawnR> can i mount a dd image even if it poops on the file system?
[23:49] <ShawnR> it won't let me select a file, only a mounted device
[23:50] <munz> :(
[23:52] <munz> not sure what else to try
[23:56] <ShawnR> i guess since i have a dd of the card, i can just work straight off of the card
[23:58] <munz> yea