[03:58] <troy_s> Wow. I'm impressed.
[03:58] <troy_s> vish / cozziemoto
[05:34] <vish> troy_s: heya!
[05:34] <vish> troy_s: what seems to have impressed you? ;)
[05:34] <troy_s> vish: How goes it vishy?
[05:35] <vish> just hanging in there.. :) how about you?
[05:35] <troy_s> vish: Same busy rubbish that bores the snot out of folks.
[05:35] <vish> haha!
[05:36] <troy_s> vish: How goes things?
[05:36] <troy_s> vish: Anything interesting?
[05:36] <vish> troy_s: well, nothing interesting per-se.. but weird things going on thats all ;)
[05:37] <vish> troy_s:  "<troy_s> Wow. I'm impressed."  whats that about?
[05:37] <troy_s> vish: I'll leave it at that.
[05:38] <troy_s> vish: Re: The Topic. Bring the fellow into this forum and I will talk to them.
[05:38] <vish> troy_s: hmm, not sure I follow
[05:39] <troy_s> vish: If you can get the individual to make an appearance in here, it might be easier to achieve a resolution.
[05:39] <vish> troy_s: you mean john?
[05:39] <troy_s> ...
[05:39] <vish> troy_s: we've tried that, but he does not want to come here..
[05:40] <troy_s> Well that is unfortunate.
[05:40] <troy_s> I'd hope that the goals are the net sum. I'm actually inclined to entirely back Coz's last mail that I got forwarded.
[05:40] <vish> i think he considers himself a lone ranger or maverick or whatever
[05:40] <vish> troy_s: yup, thats why i dont see banning john as a solution
[05:41] <troy_s> 1) The work. If the work is good, it can often justify the means. Thus far, the work isn't good. Period. Full stop. End point. Clearly a result of:
[05:41] <vish> troy_s: basically, thorwil or me asking for answers did not get any reply from john
[05:41] <vish> troy_s: so i was hoping someone else will call him out.. and yay! coz did :)
[05:41] <troy_s> 2) The people. What has been brought to the table? What gains have been made in this regard? Zero. Nothing. Nil. Case closed. Failure.
[05:42] <troy_s> See the strength of coz's statement is backed up with some work. Real work. You might not like Coz's aesthetic choices, but he is likely a monumental leap beyond the rest.
[05:43] <troy_s> _That_ is the cultural problem. Giving equal voice and that goofy 'lets-not-define-it' freedom. Free to do this. Free to do that. Anarchy. That isn't healthy freedom (which implies restrictions)
[05:44] <troy_s> So about the best thing I can see is to support folks like coz_ because, gollllyyyyy, they can actually create work.
[05:46] <troy_s> But it's good to see some challenges. Might rile up something.
[05:49] <troy_s> vish: What are your thoughts?
[05:51] <vish> troy_s: yea, but my mind kinda mind-fudged right now.. dont even want to spend time thinking about that stupidness
[05:51] <troy_s> lol
[05:51] <troy_s> It is sad that there isn't ultimately really any work.
[05:51] <vish> precisely!
[05:51] <vish> silly high-schoolish drama, like teenagers
[05:52] <troy_s> But I can't see an easy path forward there. There is clearly a need for a collective of sorts. Managing how to generate work from that is about oh... phase 194123.
[05:53] <troy_s> vish: I will say that I've been pretty damn impressed with some individuals I've bumped into of late.
[05:53] <vish> cool!
[05:54] <vish> troy_s: basically people dont understand the importance artwork plays in the OS or what importance is given right now for artwork/design … and he seems to want to control it o.0
[05:55] <troy_s> vish: Well... let's not be quite that harsh. I'd probably extend that bloody line right up the ladder.
[05:55] <troy_s> vish: I mean, honestly, who does?
[05:55] <vish> ha! :)
[05:55] <troy_s> vish: It's such a complex dance. All of the /me does is probably pretty bunk.
[05:56] <vish> troy_s: right, but anyone not in the position to control it, should not act like the way he is doing..
[05:56] <troy_s> vish: No. And that probably takes me back to point 2. People.
[05:56] <vish> yea..
[05:56] <troy_s> vish: There is so much rubbish to be smashed and dashed in an instant, but alas, there is zero credibility.
[05:57] <troy_s> vish: It is one thing to have leadership, another to have credibility.
[05:57]  * vish nods
[05:57] <troy_s> vish: And credibility is no easy path I'd estimate.
[05:57] <troy_s> vish: I am pretty sure that we could probably agree that in all of Libre software there is a 0.0001% there.
[05:58] <vish> troy_s: well, if things keep going on with such silliness, even I'd give up.. you do know that thorwil quit right?
[05:58] <troy_s> vish: Yes someone pointed me in that way.
[05:59] <troy_s> vish: I'm not entirely sure quitting is a bad thing. Probably only 'bad' if nothing is learnt.
[05:59] <vish> yup..
[06:00] <vish> troy_s: well, not basically cause of john, but more that if such behavior is tolerated, nothing will be achieved
[06:01] <vish> we can rather just imagine we live in castles and riding poines
[06:01] <vish> ponies*
[06:01] <troy_s> vish: It isn't the behaviour. It's about people remember? ;)
[06:01] <vish> yea, i say behvaior, you say people, potato , potato ;p
[06:01] <troy_s> vish: Probably takes us right back full circle to that discussion we had about the reality that this mythical "Freedom" rubbish will _repel_ an audience.
[06:02] <troy_s> vish: The solution should be relatively easy to see at this point.
[06:02] <troy_s> (at least to the woes you are facing at the moment.)
[06:03] <vish> exactly! no serious artist will spend time on an imaginary goal, and if the artist has even the slightest bit of thinking power he would realize that even that imaginary goal is not achievable
[06:05] <vish> anyhoo.. i'm going afk in a bit, will catch up later.. :)
[06:05] <troy_s> vish: Email me.
[06:05] <troy_s> vish: Ciao.
[06:05] <vish> sure thing.
[15:27] <LegacyCX> Hi
[16:00] <doctormo> vish: hello
[18:15] <coz_> hey guys
[21:28] <vish> doctormo: hey..
[22:39] <doctormo> hey vish
[22:40] <doctormo> your email was very direct, :-)
[23:35] <popey> vish: for the record you dont have to ask the cc to deal with john
[23:36] <popey> the leadership within the team can choose to eject someone who is disruptive
[23:36] <popey> the cc will of course help and support you if you feel that it's not something you can easily do
[23:36] <popey> but dont feel that you _have_ to resort to the CC
[23:36]  * popey removes his CC hat