[05:54] <hemanth> kim0, hello [ i had few queries on cloud, on of the developers from canonical referred you ]
[07:20] <kim0> hemanth: hey
[07:23] <hemanth> kim0, hey wanted your views on FOSS in cloud
[07:23] <flaccid> thats a broad question; i'm keen to hear the response :)
[07:26] <hemanth> RMS says, "It's worse than stupidity: it's a marketing hype campaign".
[07:26] <flaccid> the ignorant usually say incorrect things
[07:27] <hemanth> RMS is referring to private enterprise moneymaking cloud vendors
[07:27] <flaccid> well i don't even know what RMS is..
[07:28] <hemanth> flaccid, "I respect Richard Stallman for the same reason I respect gravity. The man is a force of nature. He is like the iron core of the Earth: fixed, central, essential."
[07:28] <flaccid> and i work for a private enterprise cloud management platform heh
[07:28] <flaccid> meh
[07:28]  * hemanth waits for kim0 
[07:29] <hemanth> flaccid, are there any cloud env which has the principals of free software?
[07:29] <flaccid> isn't that what UEC is/ubuntu cloud?
[07:30] <flaccid> still the company i work for has mostly free and open software
[07:30] <hemanth> flaccid, eucalyptus is one such; any other?
[07:31] <flaccid> well no such thing as a 'cloud env' to begin with
[07:31] <flaccid> you can look at xen, cloudstack, euca etc. for clouds
[07:31] <hemanth> flaccid, more over, most of the cloud vendors wont have the free-software philosophy
[07:31] <flaccid> still pretty broad
[07:31] <flaccid> define a cloud vendor?
[07:32] <hemanth> those who provide space on there servers, saying they have cloud hosting
[07:32] <flaccid> oh that could be any number of companies in the world thinking they do the cloud
[07:34] <hemanth> yup, if we give our data to them, we are locked in the proprietary cage
[07:35] <flaccid> i guess you might like to avoid that and choose a real public cloud
[07:36] <kim0> hemanth: oh sorry .. was grabbing some coffee .. reading and replying
[07:36] <hemanth> kim0, ok :)
[07:37] <hemanth> flaccid, 'real public cloud', as in?
[07:37] <flaccid> e.g. amazon ec2
[07:38] <hemanth> Public cloud services may be free or offered on a pay-per-usage model...hmm
[07:39] <kim0> hmm hard question :)
[07:39] <kim0> Personally I do respect RMS a lot and I can understand where he's coming from
[07:40] <kim0> basically GNU has been fighting for so many years making sure, users have full control over their data and the programs to process their data
[07:40] <kim0> now all of that is being taken away by cloud
[07:40] <hemanth> yup if RMS says something, there will be some strong reason behind it!
[07:40] <flaccid> how so?
 yup, if we give our data to them, we are locked in the proprietary cage
[07:41] <flaccid> can you explain how on a technical level?
[07:41] <kim0> basically .. clou dto RMS I suppose means something like your data on facebook
[07:41] <kim0> you have no control over your data there and not even the programs to process them
[07:42] <flaccid> thats incorrect. you have 100% control
[07:42] <flaccid> and you can choose whatever programs you want to access your data
[07:42] <flaccid> that sounds more like google apps or something..
[07:43] <kim0> was just gonna mention that
[07:43] <kim0> google docs comes to mind as well
[07:43] <hemanth> yup, they backup all over data
[07:43] <hemanth> they have our data basically
[07:43] <erichammond> flaccid: Amazon/Facebook/Google can disable your access to your data at any time.  Therefor you do not control it.
[07:43] <hemanth> even if we delete our account!
[07:43] <kim0> and they can shows everything to the feds if they choose to
[07:44] <kim0> same for FB
[07:44] <hemanth> they steal our data and sell it to someone else
[07:44] <flaccid> erichammond: sure. you can take it offsite as regular as you want. this is nothing new for a hosting provider. its actually in most of their ToS.
[07:44] <erichammond> Personally, I trust Amazon and Google with much of my personal and company data (with backups).  RMS does not based on his statements.
[07:44] <flaccid> wherever you outsource your hosting of any kind, of course that provider is going to have control, nothing new there
[07:45] <hemanth> erichammond, i don't trust them either
[07:46] <kim0> hemanth: with regards to UEC, it's a great way to run a EC2 compatble cloud using pure open source. Assuming you run it locally (private) RMS has nothing to fear
[07:46] <erichammond> hemanth: You don't use Amazon or Google?
[07:46] <hemanth> flaccid, yes, unless and until it's hosted by you, with your own machine, that data is not yours
[07:46] <kim0> I for one use them and don't trust them
[07:46] <kim0> I'm quite confident FB sells info on your online activity to governments
[07:47] <flaccid> hemanth: and you do realise you don't need cloud for that situation right? its always existed. you need to fork out for co-location which costs money..
[07:47] <kim0> twitters did the same during the Egyptian revolution days ago
[07:47] <kim0> people rely on such closed systems and they fail them
[07:47] <erichammond> I treat what I put on Facebook as public information.
[07:48] <kim0> erichammond: even private one to one communication
[07:48] <hemanth> erichammond, have you read about : "Nick Saber one day "came back from lunch to find out that he couldn't get into his Gmail account..."
[07:48] <erichammond> kim0: I don't use Facebook for private conversation.  I move any contacts to email immediately.
[07:48] <flaccid> so hemanth you could just do co location hosting in a decent centre with your own private cloud
[07:48] <flaccid> and you would have no issues and zomg you are using the cloud!
[07:48] <erichammond> I host my own email.
[07:48] <kim0> erichammond: well, so you're so careful, most people won't be :)
[07:49] <erichammond> but recommend Gmail for the rest of my family because they are so good at filtering spam :)
[07:49] <flaccid> i host my own email in the cloud and if they cancel my account, well i have regular off site backups which is a best practice for any situation
[07:49] <hemanth> kim0, yes most people are not bothered!
[07:49] <kim0> and it's a compromise
[07:50] <flaccid> so the choice is there. you'll just pay more if you choose to do your own infrastructure which of course is not public cloud
[07:50] <flaccid> i hope that clears up some misconceptions
[07:50] <kim0> so my take is UEC and others are great at the IaaS level. And I'm awaiting more free software equivalents to things like Facebook ..etc
[07:50] <kim0> the freedom box discussion is actually quite interesting
[07:51] <hemanth> people who respect other data, must come up and make such cloud services, like freedombox
[07:51] <hemanth> kim0, :) wow! thought match, diaspora++ ?
[07:51] <kim0> yeah, I just hope they take off
[07:52] <flaccid> if you want full PCI/DSS compliance, the public cloud is not for you yet.
[07:52] <hemanth> kim0, its better now
[07:52] <kim0> it's always hard moving mountains like Microsoft and FB
[07:52] <flaccid> and i'm not sure how freedombox is different to any other..
[07:52] <hemanth> ya monopoly :(
[07:52] <hemanth> ^ M$ and FB
[07:53] <kim0> lol
[07:53] <hemanth> :D
[07:53] <hemanth> ^source
[07:53] <flaccid> actually i'm not really sure how it is even relevent
[07:53] <flaccid> http://wiki.debian.org/FreedomBox is not a cloud service.
[07:53] <hemanth> flaccid, we were taking about 'data freedom'
[07:54] <kim0> no reason why you can't be part of a cloud service from your home
[07:54] <flaccid> i'm not sure how that is relevent to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreedomBox either
[07:55] <flaccid> it really depends how you define 'cloud service'. that is a term not really well defined if at all in the de facto industry
[07:55] <hemanth> kim0, so RMS is not against private clouds, he is only warning us to not to use public clouds and give all our data to them, right?
[07:55] <flaccid> its incredibly broad and also abused
[07:55] <hemanth> 'could' is the new name for the old 'game'
[07:55] <kim0> hemanth: I wouldn't know what he means, that's my interpretation however
[07:55] <flaccid> i think the point is simple. you want to secure your data fully, you do co-location whether you run a cloud or not.
[07:56] <kim0> hemanth: it still all depends on the confidentiality of your data
[07:56] <kim0> whether or not you care
[07:56] <hemanth> kim0, yup even i feel the same, as he is always against data stealer
[07:57] <kim0> non techies in many cases, just dont give a dime about their personal data
[07:57] <kim0> nice discussion to start the morning ;)
[07:57] <hemanth> that is making those buggers to monopolize faster
[07:58] <hemanth> yup, it had been long time, happy to talk to such a decent crowd :)
[08:01] <hemanth> reminds me of http://capitalismisover.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/JAvsMZ.jpg
[08:02] <flaccid> any proof on claims fb distributes non aggregate info?
[08:02] <flaccid> curious on that..
[08:07] <hemanth> Mark's treading secrets..hmm
[08:07] <flaccid> good ol speculation heh
[08:08] <hemanth> http://itgrunts.com/2010/10/07/facebook-steals-numbers-and-data-from-your-iphone/
[08:08] <hemanth> http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9175936/1.5M_stolen_Facebook_IDs_up_for_sale
[08:09] <flaccid> thats not distributing your information to 3rd parties.
[08:10] <hemanth> its very obvious that they are distributing it! Come on!
[08:10] <flaccid> right
[08:10] <flaccid> i'll restrain from commenting there
[08:11] <hemanth> :) god for them
[08:11] <hemanth> *good
[08:11] <flaccid> many people have been sentenced to death or life inprisonment from such assumptions
[08:11] <flaccid> which is ironic considering the basis of your point is rights
[08:12] <hemanth> people who speak truth have always been facing the same
[08:12] <flaccid> i choose to base conclusions on facts, sorry
[08:13] <hemanth> some things they are real, need no facts
[08:13] <flaccid> lol
[08:16] <kim0> hemanth: don't go trying to convince the world of your beliefs
[08:17] <hemanth> ya :( convincing right stuff to people is always tough
[08:18] <flaccid> so is getting your facts straight
[08:19] <hemanth> axioms need no proofs!