[02:35] <nigelb> morning
[07:11] <dholbach> good morning
[07:15] <duanedesign> morning all
[07:15] <dholbach> hi duanedesign
[07:15] <duanedesign> hello dholbach
[07:19] <dholbach> hey dpm
[07:19] <dholbach> dpm, hope you had a great birthday and weekend! :)
[07:19]  * dholbach hugs dpm
[07:19] <kim0> dpm: Happy Bday :)
[07:19] <kim0> Morning everyone
[07:19] <dpm> hey dholbach, I did, thanks! :)
[07:20] <dholbach> yoohoo
[07:20]  * dpm hugs dholbach
[07:20] <dpm> thanks kim0!
[07:20] <kim0> :)
[07:20] <dpm> goooood morning everyone!
[07:24] <duanedesign> 'lo kim0 dpm
[07:24] <dpm> hey duanedesign, hey ara
[07:25] <ara> hey dpm
[07:39] <kim0> duanedesign: ara Morning o/
[07:40] <ara> morning kim0
[07:40] <kim0> everyone is so enegetic about the new week eh
[07:42] <dholbach> kim0, you're hallucinating
[07:42] <dholbach> :-P
[07:42] <kim0> hehhe :)
[07:42]  * kim0 trapped in a heated discussion in #ubuntu-cloud
[07:52] <dpm> brb, rebooting...
[13:20] <vish> .. how do we ban someone from editing the wiki pages? do we file a question in lp and it gets done or..?
[13:20] <vish>  like what is the procedure for this? has anyone done this before?
[13:22] <popey> we can get IS to make pages immutable
[13:23] <popey> vish: any particular page?
[13:24] <vish> popey: its not a particular page, its for the Artwork/* , (the john issue)
[13:24] <popey> i dont think making pages immutable is useful in this instance
[13:24] <vish> he just starts pages on the team namespace and it 'seems' official once it is on the wiki..
[13:26] <vish> yea, hence i was thinking about banning the user from wiki edits..
[13:26] <popey> whilst it is possible to ban someone from the wiki by deleting their lp account, i think that's overkill
[13:26] <popey> i think perhaps having a meeting with john to thrash out the issue and work out a way forward
[13:26] <popey> banning should be a last resort
[13:27] <popey> especially for someone who is contributing (even if they're contibuting in a broken way)
[13:27] <vish> popey: we've tried it, he is not collaborating..
[13:27] <vish> popey: you can see that he has not responded to even one question raised by the team..
[13:28] <popey> yes, i saw
[13:28] <popey> I would recommend not all wading in and attacking him as a pack
[13:28] <popey> I suspect he's less likely to respond to multiple emails raising the same point
[13:29] <vish> popey: well, it was first tried asking in private before bringing the issue to the mailing list..
[13:29] <popey> whats his lauchpad account name?
[13:29]  * vish looks
[13:30] <vish> popey: https://launchpad.net/~j.baer
[13:31] <vish> popey: thanks for looking into this, its come to a point where people have little patience trying to be on guard for what wiki edits he makes
[13:31] <vish> thorwil was the one who used to keep the wiki clean
[13:31] <vish> and sorted..
[13:38] <popey> i understand
[13:38] <popey> it must be frustrating
[13:39] <vish> popey: just for a little background, the main issue is that he contacts people saying he is representing the artwork team and misleads them to believe he is speaking for the whole team.. when none of his activities have ever been mentioned to the team, so whatever he is saying is purely his own words and ideas..
[13:40] <vish> so his activities is not limited with this wallpaper confusion alone..
[13:41] <vish> s/is/are
[13:48] <popey> It's tricky. I'm sure there are lots of people who contact people "on behalf of" teams. I know I contact people "on behalf of" the CC, but I don't get permission from the entire CC before I do it
[13:48] <popey> and i know dholbach, pleia2 and Technoviking do the same
[13:49] <popey> I am not condining his actions, but I don't believe there has to be complete agreement from everyone in a team before one person makes contact 'on behalf of' the team
[13:50] <vish> popey: yea, but you have worked long enough with others in the team to speak for the team, and know what is within acceptable limits.
[13:51] <popey> Ok, so what specifically has he done that is outside acceptable limits?
[13:51] <popey> I see he's contacted people trying to get new artwork for the next release.
[13:51] <vish> like for this contest, he directed folks to the wrong pool
[13:51] <vish> his private group instead of the one the judges will look..
[13:52] <popey> yes, I saw that. when you say "private group" you mean, just his personal flickr group?
[13:52] <vish> yup..
[13:52] <popey> so, what if he forwarded those "upstream" to the official group.
[13:52] <popey> they would then be considered?
[13:53] <vish> yup, and thats what Iain reiterated now in his last mail
[13:53] <popey> ok, so whats the big problem then?
[13:53] <vish> popey: but he doesnt
[13:53] <popey> Someone has gone out and got contributions, which could be forwarded upstream?
[13:54] <popey> he has until the competition finishes to do it, surely?
[13:54] <vish> popey: right, but that would the course correction we can do now.. he just has them in his own groups and did not mention anything about forwarding it to the main group
[13:55] <popey> ok, so thats a potential way forward?
[13:55] <popey> request that John forwards them to the 'right' group?
[13:55] <vish> popey: yup.. (for this issue)
[13:55] <popey> Ok, good. What other issues are there?
[13:56] <vish> popey: and he has been contacting team like edubuntu, LibO and other , offering services of the whole artwork team, promising delivery of services(whatever artwork/wallpaper)
[13:56] <popey> that seems sub-optimal :)
[13:56] <vish> when none of the team even knows they have been volunteered
[13:56] <popey> is this communication documented somewhere?
[13:57] <vish> popey: you mean his letters to the other teams?
[13:57] <popey> he seems to be keen/enthusiastic
[13:57] <popey> yeah
[13:57] <popey> emails
[13:57] <czajkowski> vish: from reading he seems to want to be helping, granted he may not be doing it the way ye like atm
[13:57] <vish> popey: the LibO one is on their mailing list, let me find you the link
[13:57] <popey> thanks vish
[13:57] <popey> I'm just trying to understand how much of this is the one specific issue
[13:57] <popey> and how much is a succession of little issues that have built up
[13:58] <popey> and how we can correct the course
[13:58] <vish> czajkowski: exactly, and we tried talking to him to not do such things but he repeatedly does this..
[13:58]  * vish finds links..
[13:58] <czajkowski> vish: ok so maybe both parites need to rethink the process, maybe he finds the way ye do things too drawn out
[14:01] <vish> popey: http://www.mail-archive.com/marketing@libreoffice.org/msg01099.html
[14:02] <vish> "we are willing to assist as time and resources permit." and no one knew this.. :(
[14:02] <popey> ok
[14:03] <vish> and other like highvoltage(edubuntu) have told that they received similar mails, and that thought that he was talking for the whole team
[14:06] <popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/0006_Edubuntu_Natty_Wallpaper
[14:06] <popey> that spec?
[14:06] <popey> vish: does the artwork team hold regular meetings?
[14:07] <vish> nope.. it used to, but that was nearly 2-3 yrs ago.. :(
[14:08] <vish> popey: yea, that spec and now edubuntu has withdrawn that spec and doctormo is assigned the task.
[14:08] <popey> Ok, so perhaps holding regular meetings will help the team coalesce?
[14:08] <popey> improve communications within the team
[14:08] <vish> we need to re-think the way things can get done in FOSS artwork, atleast wrt to Ubuntu
[14:08]  * vish nods
[14:09] <popey> because right now from an outsiders point of view it basically looks like (to me)..
[14:09] <popey> one person is actively trying to stuff
[14:09] <popey> lots of people are standing around doing nothing and rapping the first person for doing stuff
[14:09] <popey> forgive me if that's not how it is, but that's how it looks
[14:10] <czajkowski> :s rather unfortunate tbh
[14:10] <vish> popey: hmm, nope, thats not right, but he just is too talkative.. :)
[14:10] <vish> hence the illusion
[14:10] <czajkowski> popey: how I've read it also from following chats in here
[14:10] <popey> ok
[14:10] <popey> so how do you turn that around vish ?
[14:10] <czajkowski> too talkative?/
[14:11] <vish> popey: right now, there is a bit of mismatch between team/member expectation and what is required for Ubuntu
[14:12] <vish> everyone wants to do the final wallapaper or theme :)
[14:12] <popey> right
[14:12] <popey> surely the design team (canonical) have final say on that?
[14:12] <vish> yup
[14:12] <popey> Isn't this the long term issue that the art team has always had?
[14:12] <popey> Canonical take little notice of community art?
[14:12] <vish> yea..
[14:13] <vish> since only a few artwork tasks exist for 'Ubuntu' distro, and in effort to increase the tasks for others we included the photos
[14:13] <vish> and now this cycle we included the illustrations too
[14:13] <vish> popey: but john is not fully aware for this
[14:14] <czajkowski> vish: thats hardly his fault if the team has poor communuication tbh
[14:14] <vish> and he fails to understand or grasp it when people explain that this exists
[14:14] <vish> czajkowski: we have tried to explain to him, that there is this new task..
[14:14] <popey> the artwork team doesn't seem to act like a "team" in the way other ubuntu teams do
[14:14] <vish> yea, its messy right now
[14:15] <czajkowski> popey: +1
[14:15] <vish> popey: earlier kwwii was there, now he has quit canonical and things just got out of hand
[14:15] <czajkowski> vish: perhaps the communication medium isn't right, or how the message is being conveyed.
[14:15] <vish> not that we were most productive before kwwii left
[14:16] <popey> I was about to say exactly that vish
[14:16] <czajkowski> vish: but this guy is trying to be...
[14:16] <popey> nothing seems to have changed
[14:16] <popey> the team seems dysfunctional
[14:17] <vish> czajkowski: i blame myself for this new spurt of activity or igniting john's flame..
[14:17]  * vish finds mail..
[14:18] <vish> we just got dormant and i wrote this > https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2010-September/012256.html
[14:19] <IdleOne> maybe what the art team needs is a curator, someone to take charge of submitting art to canonical and the Artists can focus on the art part.
[14:19] <IdleOne> I know very little of what is going on in all this mind you.
[14:21] <vish> right now, only about 10-max20 members even communicate on the mailing list
[14:21] <czajkowski> I dont get why the art team cannot just fall under the canonical team like in testing/desktop/kernel all other teams. canonical leads them and has community members actively helping in them
[14:21] <vish> +1
[14:21] <popey> the art team pre-dates the canonical design team
[14:21] <popey> thats why
[14:21] <czajkowski> popey: so merge.
[14:21] <popey> by some significant margin
[14:21] <popey> i suspect there are a few blockers there
[14:21] <czajkowski> teams merge and change.
[14:22] <popey> like the fact that canonical like to keep design stuff internal
[14:22] <popey> IMO
[14:22] <czajkowski> popey: well those blockers seem to the reason why the team is less than active as well .
[14:22] <popey> hang on..
[14:22] <czajkowski> rather frustrting and for as long as I can remmeber this team has te same issue over and over
[14:22] <popey> and the resistance from people in the team to becoming part of the canonical machine
[14:22] <czajkowski> canonical design team just get on with the work and do it
[14:22] <popey> thats not very community spirited
[14:23] <popey> why not hand over the whole of ubuntu development to canonical teams and have no community?
[14:23] <vish> popey: "people resisting" ? no, it only john resisting :)
[14:23] <czajkowski> popey: it may seem that way, but it's the only team that cant seem to play with canonical. look at desktop, kernel, cloud, etc
[14:23] <IdleOne> sure it is, the community needs help in this area with organization, Canonical has the Design team already set up to deal with this.
[14:24] <vish> and there is this problem of splitting design from artwork
[14:24] <AlanBell> does the design team understand why it needs the community?
[14:25] <vish> we discussed these issues in the last UDS and the design team is making an effort to involve the community team,
[14:26] <vish> http://design.canonical.com/2010/12/surveying-contributions/
[14:26] <vish> we are trying to first access the goal of the people and the number of people who want to participate in Ubuntu artwork/design community
[14:27] <vish> and we have the issue of Ayatana which deals with design, so there was this talk of merging artwork and design too
[14:29] <vish> right now, the easiest task was to announce contests and help the sister distros, but that is not going too well
[14:29] <AlanBell> what is the last project that the community artwork team did, that the design team wanted doing?
[14:29] <vish> most serious artists dont want to spend their time taking part in contests
[14:30] <vish> AlanBell: hmm, that would be the countdown banners
[14:30] <AlanBell> ok, great
[14:31] <AlanBell> so that project worked quite well (they looked great, and got into a lot of places)
[14:32] <vish> thats the only task thats been going on continuously
[14:32] <vish> and with quite some decent results..
[14:33] <vish> czajkowski: popey: so basically john's idea is like Ubuntu manual, let us try to do something and then try to get our way into the default distro, which is where we find this not a reality .
[14:34] <vish> so we have tried to tell him to not mislead people..
[14:34] <vish> and instead try to direct people to these existing tasks.
[14:35] <vish>  like the illustrations one where people have a chance of actually seeing their work in the distro
[14:35] <vish> but he does not listen..
[14:36] <popey> I think (personally) the team needs to focus on being a team, and what they _can_ do rather than focus on the negatives and John in particular
[14:36] <vish> popey: right, but everytime the team tries to do something, john finds a way to be distracting ;)
[14:37] <czajkowski> :s
[14:37] <czajkowski> I actuallly kinda feel sorry for this John guy,
[14:37] <czajkowski> he's trying to help and everyone just wants to criticise it
[14:37] <vish> oh boy! :D
[14:38]  * vish tries to put this into community-team examples..
[14:40] <vish> lets say, that a team wants approval as an official Ubuntu LoCo team, but does not get approval.. would it be right if the LoCo starts its own Community-team and duplicating the Community team
[14:40] <vish> ?
[14:40] <popey> i dont think that analogy works :)
[14:40] <czajkowski> vish: doesnt really work that way
[14:41] <popey> its one guy, trying to work within a team, taking leadership where there is none
[14:41] <czajkowski> we encourage teams to spread Ubuntu, approved or not means nothing
[14:41] <popey> unless I am wrong, there is no leadership in the art team
[14:41] <vish> kwwii is still the leader
[14:41] <popey> czajkowski: thats not what he's suggesting in his example
[14:41] <popey> vish: kwwii is awol surely?
[14:41] <vish> though he has been busy with his new job recently..
[14:42] <popey> czajkowski: the example vish gave was that if a loco wasn't approved, they might start their own *community team* or "loco council"
[14:42] <czajkowski> popey: teams do , netherlands there is an example i guess
[14:42] <popey> no
[14:42] <popey> you're not getting the example
[14:42] <czajkowski> ok
[14:42] <popey> the example is not that they would start their own unapproved _loco_ team
[14:42] <vish> well, thats what john does, he does not like existing rules(available tasks), so he just tries to create his own tasks which have no way to be approved
[14:43] <popey> but that they would start their own _loco council_ or _community team_
[14:43] <popey> but the example/analogy is broken anyway, so meh :D
[14:43] <popey> I see what you're saying vish
[14:43] <vish> ;p
[14:43] <popey> :)
[14:45] <vish> popey: surely you wouldnt call that taking leadership, because leading means to lead atleast _one_ .. but he is autocratic ;)
[14:45] <vish> maybe autocratic is not the right word..
[14:45] <popey> sure, I understand
[14:46] <popey> but if you're in a team that is dysfunctional, moribund
[14:46] <vish> :D
[14:46] <popey> some people "JFDI"
[14:46] <popey> get on with it
[14:47] <vish> popey: right, but that JFDI would be right, when there was no task, but what he is doing now is essentially duplicating an existing task
[14:47] <popey> or embracing and extending
[14:47] <popey> :)
[14:47] <popey> I'm not making excuses for what he's done, but I can see why he's done what he has
[14:48] <popey> to some degree
[14:48] <popey> I do believe the art team needs a massive kick up the butt though
[14:48] <vish> hmm, wait i think i might have explained this whole thing wrong.. :)
[14:48] <vish> popey: +1 for kick though ;)
[14:48] <czajkowski> vish: yes but not John
[14:48] <vish> let me start again..
[14:49] <vish> :s
[14:49] <czajkowski> you seem hell bent on making this poor guy suffer for tryig to help vish
[14:49] <czajkowski> :(
[14:49] <vish> hmm?
[14:49] <vish> oh well.. nvm me then :)
[14:51] <vish> czajkowski: the problem was he was misdirecting people to the wrong groups, where peoles' submissions will never be judged » https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2011-February/013201.html
[14:51] <vish> poeple's
[14:52] <popey> 14:48:30 < vish> hmm, wait i think i might have explained this whole thing wrong.. :)
[14:52] <vish> czajkowski: and people are quitting the team because of him » https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2011-February/013142.html
[14:52] <popey> nope
[14:52] <popey> I completely understand
[14:52] <popey> but I do still think the team has issues that are much larger than John
[14:53] <vish> yea..
[14:53] <czajkowski> vish: that mail says ther are larger issues in then team than one person. finger pointing doesn't help anyone
[14:54] <vish> czajkowski: not sure what you mean finger pointing..
[14:54] <vish> czajkowski: but i'm not saying he is the sole problem
[14:54] <vish> i think i'm bad at irc-xplaining ;)
[14:54] <AlanBell> there is plenty more stuff in that thread
[14:55] <vish> right, but i've been talking to thorwil, and john is the last effort which broke him
[14:55] <czajkowski> vish: but you're saying people are leaving because of him, and I',m saying like AlanBell is there is more content in that email which explains why he is leaving
[14:56] <czajkowski> finger pointing at John saying he is the reason people are leaving is inaccurate
[14:56] <AlanBell> not what I am saying
[14:56] <czajkowski> AlanBell: you said more content in thread sorry not mail
[14:56] <vish> czajkowski: let me be clear on one thing, I'm not blaming the artwork team's problem are solely because of john
[14:56] <AlanBell> vish isn't the only person who perceives an issue here, looking at the other mails in that thread
[14:56] <popey> indeed
[14:57] <AlanBell> however I don't understand the issue yet
[14:57] <AlanBell> tbh, if I was involved in artwork I could see myself writing the same emails John is
[14:57] <vish> czajkowski: i started the discussion here about blocking john from editing the wiki..
[14:58] <vish> and nothing else.. :)
[14:58] <popey> vish: nobody is critisising you for bringing this up :)
[14:58] <popey> I've been following the issue for a while.
[14:58] <vish> yea, but i think czajkowski has joined the conversation in the middle and  got my intent wrong
[14:58] <vish> :)
[14:59] <czajkowski> vish: no I've read scroll back.
[14:59] <vish> czajkowski: and that problem was since he was using the artwork team namespace for tasks that are his own and not the team's
[14:59] <vish> oh well :(
[15:05] <popey> vish: other than banning john, what would you like to see happen?
[15:07] <vish> popey: banning john (from wiki edits alone) , we need to restructure the team, find ways to be more productive..
[15:07] <vish> this contests thing is not working..
[15:07] <vish> we should rather form a pool of work/artists where people feel comfortable to choose from..
[15:08] <vish> the contests are not attracting the right kind of artists..
[15:16] <popey> vish: if you feel the cc needs to get involved then I'd recommend a summary email with the necessary bits of detail, and we can take a look.
[15:19] <vish> popey: i think i better not.. :)  my intentions seem to be mistaken.. i'll let someone else take that initiative.. " <czajkowski> you seem hell bent on making this poor guy suffer for tryig to help vish "
[15:27] <popey> vish: as I said, they have not been mistaken, if they had I would have said so about an hour ago :)
[15:28] <vish> :)
[15:29]  * vish thinks he might need to pick up an irish accent then, this is the second time czajkowski has completely misunderstood me ;)
[15:29] <IdleOne> hehe
[15:30] <czajkowski> heh
[15:34] <vish> popey: i'll see how it goes(now that I've gotten Iain himself to reply there, maybe he course-corrects) and what others think, and if he still keeps doing this.. iirc, leogg was the first person who brought up involving CC, so if the team does want to take this to CC, I'll send the mail..
[15:34] <popey> ok
[15:34] <popey> good luck!
[15:34] <popey> I'm on the mailing list so I see the mail
[15:34] <vish> thx.. :)
[15:43] <popey> vish: seems like progress on the list
[16:14] <vish> ohh! /me checks mail..
[16:19] <vish> hmm, saleel changed his sig to inactive :(
[17:37]  * popey hugs Technoviking 
[17:52]  * dholbach calls it a day - have a great rest of your day - see you tomorrow!
[17:52] <dholbach> HUGS
[18:14] <nhandler> o/wnn chic