=== ailo_ is now known as help
thorwilgood morning!07:16
thorwilchaotic: maybe you will understand what a colleague chose not to. please have a look:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bug/67211207:17
ubot2Launchpad bug 672112 in ubuntu-website-content "Dividers in header are inconsistent" [Undecided,New]07:17
chaoticthorwil: thanks for pointing that out - I have notified the web team and they say they'll look into it10:11
thorwilchaotic: np. my eye for detail has to be good for something other than driving myself crazy :)10:13
coz_hey guys10:13
thorwilhi coz_10:13
coz_thorwil,  hey guy10:13
chaoticthorwil: :)10:13
coz_i have been reading what is available on the mailing list... still not clear on where things stand with baer and the group as a whole10:46
vishcoz_: if he does not reply to questions,what can one do?10:54
coz_vish,  yeah  that is exactly what has been hitting me in the back of the head10:55
vishsheer stupidity.. :/10:55
coz_vish,  but not just that10:55
coz_vish,  I joined th is group years ago...darkmatter and probably troys  can remember how long , just after ubuntu came out i believe10:55
vishcoz_: that is the issue thorwil . doctormo and I have.. he never gives a reply to questions raised.. thats his pattern10:56
coz_vish,   this is  deja vu in a way10:56
coz_vish,  I can remember years ago pulling back from the group for various reasons10:57
thorwilcoz_: there are only 2 good options regarding dealing with John: ignore (made easier by leaving the list), or kick out. while him subscribing to the list under another name can't be ruled out, at least his ubuntu membership could be revoked10:57
coz_thorwil,  well kicking or banning is just foing to feed whatever reasons he had in the first place10:57
thorwilfoing to feed?10:57
vishcoz_: so beyond the questions one can ask, it is not clear if he understands and corrects himself or he is just being adamant10:57
coz_thorwil,  it will  just feed into his view that he was right in the first place10:58
coz_I just dont understand it  to be honest10:58
thorwili don't even want to care if he is a regrettably sophisticated troll or benevolent-but-brainfucked10:58
vishcoz_: popey has been silently following this "issue" , he said that it is not necessary that CC is brought in this matter,  team leadership can kick him out.. Or we can ask CC for help regarding this10:59
coz_somehow it has to related to the "dis organization"  haunting the group10:59
thorwilbuwhaha, *team leadership*10:59
coz_but a very old issue11:00
* vish re-elects thorwil to be a leader or an interim one ;p11:00
vishor elects even.. ;)11:00
thorwili can do something worthwhile *or* play team leader here ... guess what i'll do11:01
* thorwil -> food11:01
coz_my belief is that had t his group been well organized from the get go ,,, and no offense to those on the desing team... we would be in the position the design team is in now11:01
vishbah, i guess , best is that we shut down the team!11:02
vishno one needs to worry about anything :s11:02
vishheh, i dint expect saleel's reply to be straight to the point though..11:03
coz_vish,  well of course I am not the one to finalize a decision like that  and I wouldnt  even if I were11:03
vishhe dint want to even get involved in this and he clearly pointed out john has not given a single reasons for that group to exist11:04
coz_ I must have missed his reply11:04
vishagain john had no reply..11:04
coz_yes I see11:04
coz_Last time I asked this question I believe troy was in charge... what is the goal of this group?  how much influence does it weild.. and what is in the works for improving its solidity?11:06
vishthere really is no point for this group to actually exist11:06
coz_vish,  oh wonderful11:07
coz_vish,  so we leave things up to the "desing team"  again no o ffense,,, but I know of a few poeple here who are quite a bit more talented11:07
vishso what if people are talented ;)11:07
coz_vish,  mmm  are you playing devil's advocate with me? :)11:08
vishcoz_: Ubuntu artwork is done by the design team, they are running the contests, community can just participate in these contests.. there is no real need for the "team"11:08
coz_vish,   what artwork was done by the desing team11:09
coz_vish,  the themes?11:09
vishwhat isnt?11:09
vishthemes, wallpaper11:09
coz_vish,  wallpaper  has sucked since dapper11:09
vishwhat else is there to do?11:09
coz_and before11:09
vishcoz_: suck factor is not an issue, thats upto mark and his team.. not really an issue11:09
vishfor the team11:09
visheven if an amazing wallpaper is done by someone, how is it going to get into the distro?11:10
coz_vish,  but mark is a developer in theory... he has absolutely no ability to deal with graphics11:10
coz_no offense to developers here11:10
coz_vish,  yes I realize that11:10
vishcoz_: right, but _he_ doesnt do the wallpapers, he has the design team doing it/11:11
coz_vish,  well him, or them  still no ability11:11
vishheh, well that again not something this team can fix11:11
coz_I understand11:11
coz_I suppose I am going through the same internal struggles I  had years ago here  after this latest issue11:12
vishhis nonsense has to stop, if it means shutting down the team to prevent him then so be it..11:12
coz_ eeww11:13
coz_vish,  I dont like that idea but  I am not the one to decide11:13
coz_vish,  although that leave things opened for other "admins"  to start flickr groups :)11:13
coz_waiste of time11:14
vishat one point i was entertaining the hope that someone can salvage the team, but i can see no one willing to take the leadership..11:14
vishand if john wants to be leader.. /me will auto-quit ;)11:15
coz_vish,   leadership needs clout behind it which canonical will not give11:15
vishcoz_: canonical has no role in this, their clout is not needed..11:15
coz_vish,   oh?11:16
coz_well maybe change the name from #ubuntu-artwork  to  #art-is -fun11:17
vishcoz_: i think doctormo (if he is willing) can lead the team, but then no one else is right for that position11:17
vishi'v asked troy, thorwil , but they have just grown tooo old ;p11:17
coz_vish,  I wouldnt expect troy at all ,, I know what he has been t hrough11:17
vishcoz_: thats not a valid argument ;)11:18
vishcoz_: a lot has changed, not everyone from the old team still exists.. troy has his ideals too.. he wants to have his work influence Ubuntu.. which is not possible11:18
coz_vish,  I understand his perspective... so then.. what "is" the point of #ubuntu-artwork?11:19
vishcoz_: exactly! ;)11:19
vish..dissolve …11:19
coz_vish,  just rename the channel to   #art-is-fun  ,,, that would please the developers11:20
vishyea, that could do11:20
coz_vish,  so in essence  #ubuntu-artwork is doing what john has been doing?11:20
vishcoz_: hmm?11:21
vishcoz_: what john wants is a piece of a pie that is not available11:21
coz_vish,  well...if t his group is not gearing up to gain some control over ubuntu content.. then isnt the name msileading11:21
vishcoz_: this team is older than the design team11:22
coz_vish,  exactly11:22
vishcoz_: so when it was formed it had a reason to exist, but not anymore11:22
coz_vish,  what was that reason?11:22
vishcoz_: long back this team had some role in the themes/wallpaper11:23
coz_vish,  right until shuttleworth cut it off11:24
coz_for some erroneous reason11:24
vishcoz_: we could rather just be a group that has a collection of artists interested in helping FOSS/Ubuntu distros … artists can showcase a portfolio and say they are interested in helping FOSS11:24
vishand teams can choose the artist whose work they like11:25
coz_vish,  mmm  perhaps11:25
coz_vish,  I doubt I would be interested much in that11:25
vishand instead of these contest for the edubuntu/xubuntu, the team can just work with the artist they like..11:25
coz_vish,  I am aware that the design team now makes the decision11:26
vishthe last bit of community design in Ubuntu is Humanity.. and that would end when the new icon theme is announced..11:27
vishand then i would have no reason to be here either ;)11:27
coz_vish,  truly sad.. for real... I still had hopes for the fight to gain control over content11:27
vishIMO, not gonna happen.. never11:28
coz_vish,  that unfortunate  in reality...11:28
coz_ok I announce that i will be "admin"  of #art-is-fun  maybe at some point down the road when real art starts disgusting me lol11:29
coz_ok then I will delete my flickr account ...there is no real need for it now11:30
vishcoz_: hmm, the illustrations can just use community submissions11:31
vishcoz_: its just that there is no need for a 'team' to do that ;)11:31
coz_vish,  well first ,,they need to correctly define "illustrations"   what I have seen is not illustration11:31
coz_nor is it fine art11:31
coz_damn and i was all excited about finally figuring out flickr  lol11:32
coz_well it wont take long to delet 25 things :)11:34
coz_ok I will stay on the ubuntu artwork group until this "contest" is finised....somehow reminds me of  "America's got talent"11:44
coz_well guys it is now nearing 7AM here,,, no sleep ,, pensive,,,thinking about this group,,, its future,,, leadershipt etc etc11:45
coz_so off to bed ,,, I hope you are all here tomorrow11:45
thorwilvish: i have just grown to wanting more out of each bit of attention and effort that i spend11:57
vishthorwil: yup, thats what i meant by "grown old" ;)12:00
thorwilvish: heh, do you plan to grow old, too, then? ;)12:01
vishthorwil: well, you leave me no choice now ;)12:01
=== duanedesign is now known as evilduanedesign
=== evilduanedesign is now known as duanedesign
coz_hey guys18:39
vishcoz_: haha! you run auto-join-HI scripts ;p18:39
coz_vish,  no just copy paste  real fast lol18:40
coz_ok I have un-joined all groups on flickr18:40
vishcoz_: why? silent protest eh? ;p18:41
coz_vish,  no... after our conversation last night,, I thought about it all...slept on it...then thought about it more this morning... I join this group years ago with the intent and hope of influencing Ubuntu content,,  I am educated in fine art..I wanted to share and influience the look and feel of Ubuntu18:42
coz_vish,  without proper leadership ,,, that';s not going to happen,,, and the flickr "contest" is just like america's got talent  which is ludicrous18:43
vishcoz_: well, i dont think getting a leader will improve it either..18:44
vishcoz_: but yea, i get your point.. :)18:44
vishcoz_: did you see my last mail?18:44
coz_vish,  I think it would but even more important is  the people who can produce work that is wanted by ubuibuntu...or irresistable to them18:44
coz_vish,  no didnt look at mail yet  will do so now18:45
vishi tried to make it very clear that community team has no part in organizing art for Ubuntu18:45
coz_vish,  yes I tried that with my comments to john  which obviously made no impact18:46
coz_vish,  nicely done18:49
coz_although I am on the cairo dock team... mainly graphics..and heavily involved in compiz, again graphics.. making and maintaining icons for ccsm or themes for cairo dock are not exavtly as satisfiying as would be be being part of the decision making process  for an OS... both of those projects are important to me,  and involvement with them somewhat rewarding... but my skills at  art,, are not satisfied,  there,  so I am not sure where I stan19:10
coz_d at this point..19:10
vishcoz_: i think working with the sister distros is best thing.. dont worry about the size of users19:15
coz_vish,  well... maybe...in all honesty,, I came to ubuntu from BeOs  which I would still be using if it had current java packages,,,, when I saw the potential with Ubuntu,, I felt this is more than a worthwhile project to get involved with,,, I didnt and still do not want to code and maintain that code,, I dont have time,,19:16
vishcoz_: nah, not coding.. i meant designing19:17
coz_vish,  right,,, but  it was Ubuntu that had and still has the potentials that attracted me to it19:17
vishcoz_: those have better opportunity for showcasing talents19:17
vishOOObuntooo :)19:18
coz_vish,  well  perhaps... but none have the "pull of interest"  that ubuntu has for me19:18
coz_I never got heavily involved here  for the reason that there can be influencing Ubuntu,,, it didnt seem practical to show and skills leadership or otherwise,, since it would have no impact... it was troy that kept nagging me to show more work,, which finally  manifested in starting that flickr account,, ,of course it was a few years of nagging  by troy lol19:20
coz_rather  "cant influence ubuntu"19:20
vishwe'll rename him "troy the nagger" ;p19:21
coz_and then,,, after years of semi involvement... the result is an "official design team"19:21
coz_quite depressing  considering that "actual" talent that lies hidden within this group19:22
vishcoz_: Mark himself mentioned he never found a way to use this group ;)19:23
thorwilyeah, he once complained about everyone wanting their way or none at all19:24
coz_vish,  he also said he couldnt find a way to communicate with its members which is just bull..since he finds numerous ways to keep in contact with developers19:24
coz_it is still as depressing as it was a few years ago.. and again,,, even more depressing that there is a "design team"19:26
coz_however,,, I am more than willing to work along with that team... in any project,,, but is there even that possibility?19:29
vishcoz_: which team? the Canonical design team?19:30
coz_vish,  seems to me..that the canonical design team should be pulling in  different members of this group to work on projects,,19:31
coz_vish,  I would consider that appropriate leadership of sorts19:32
vishwell, there is a difference in how Ubuntu/Canonical teams work together. and how that can not work for art19:33
vishif you take other desktop teams.. Canonical team has a set of packages they need to fix and the Canonical desktop team mostly works on it and anyone from community can work along with them19:33
vishso the task can be split into mini-tasks19:34
vishand each person can do his interested part, irrespective of being canonical or Ubuntu19:34
vishand if anything goes wrong in one step, there can always be an update19:35
vishbut we cant split a wallpaper into miniwallpapers , and we cant fix it with updates :D19:35
coz_vish,  well not just wallpaper,,, themes  overall appearance19:35
vishright, similar for themes19:36
vishthey have hired Cimi19:36
coz_I see19:36
vishcoz_: only one person has to do one wallpaper.. and design team has an employed person on the task.. so one way would be to get that guy fired ;p19:37
* vish hides19:37
coz_well I suppose I could work on an entire system theme,,, icons ,, images,,, metacity/gtk and offer it on gnome-look or something19:37
vishright, that works19:37
vishcoz_: you really should not listen to what thorwil or I say.. you seem to have gotten pretty depressed :)19:39
vishboth thorwil and I are evil ;p19:39
coz_vish,  no more than usual here :)19:39
coz_vish,  yes I forgot about your evilness19:39
thorwilrelevations on the path to enlightenment can seem painfull at first19:40
coz_this is true19:40
thorwilbut once through, you will experience new found freedom19:40
coz_revelations  you meant ...yes?19:40
thorwildang, yes19:41
thorwilthank you for this collection of my arrow!19:42
coz_I have to admit,, I have always enjoyed talking with the people who dont just hang out here :)19:42
coz_where the heck is darkmatter?  I hope he is doing ok19:42
vishhe'd be snorting glue ;p19:43
vishnowadays he hangs out/talks more in #elementary19:43
coz_he has hung in there for the past 5 or 6 years ,,, but long absences  concern me19:44
coz_oh yes he does like elementary19:44
coz_I gave up on that as well...way to mac like for me19:44
coz_I think the misnomer   " ubuntu  community oriented  open source"  although true has attracted artists hoping to influence the releases on some level, must be clearly  defined as  "Not in terms of graphics" which is essentially "closed"  to community19:50
* vish kicks darkmatter !!! dude come cheer-up coz_ !!19:54
coz_vish,  I dont know about that ,,, he and I think closely alike :)19:55
coz_troy the same...although troy needs to ELABORATE  :)19:55
coz_darkmatter,  hey guy :)19:56
darkmatterheya coz_19:56
* darkmatter slaps vish with a buffalo wing19:56
coz_darkmatter,  are you hanging out in that mac  we like to look like  channel ?19:57
coz_let me check it out today19:57
darkmattercoz_: I hang out in _every_ channel :P19:57
coz_darkmatter,  yes  you do :)19:59
coz_vish,  I believe once darkmatter   suggested also doing work for other distributions.. I suppose I could think  about it... later... at some point... maybe :)20:00
darkmattercoz_: I've made a _major_ design decision regarding my baby(s). now to actually mock stuff up and post it somewhere. maybe I'll dump some crap out of my flickr and put it there20:03
coz_darkmatter,  cool... look forward to seeing that :)20:05
darkmattercoz_: super clean design (almost minimal to an extent. all the traditional eyesores are stripped out or 'hidden' (grabbers n separators in panes of an app, virtually no chrome, etc) and exceedingly themable compared to "normal" (gtk 3 should make that much easier to an extent)20:09
coz_darkmatter,  ooo nice20:10
darkmattercoz_: was already headed in that general direction, but I want to creat a visual elegance that actually _allows_ for pure focus on art in design (not just the gui and its interactions, but _art_ properly)20:10
coz_darkmatter,  that I completely understand :)20:10
darkmattercoz_: like, salvidore dali for a widget theme :P (well, not literally, but you get the idea)20:11
darkmatterenvironment is art20:11
coz_darkmatter,  ooo   :)  just saw a documentary about him20:11
darkmattercoz_: :)20:14
darkmatterdali is one of my greatest inspirations. teh idol if you will ;)20:18
coz_darkmatter,  cool..not bad for inspiration :)20:23
coz_darkmatter, decent documentary about him on Hulu20:24
darkmattercoz_: I'll have to check it out later. bbiab though. gotta go get needle shoved in vein \o/20:25
coz_okie dokie20:25
coz_for the record,,, best still life painters... cezanne,, van gogh,, and manet..... best landscape painters...van gogh  and camille corot...cezanne landscapes suck :)... best figurative painters,,, odd nerdrum...manet,,, degas,, sargent... abstract is another matter20:25
coz_best illustrators well,,, I dont keep up with illustrators20:25
coz_from the paste maybe  NC  Wyeth20:25
coz_past not paste20:25
coz_the Wyeths live here in Pennsylvania,,, andrew wyeth  had put out a call for a student to mentor... I drove all over that area trying to find him...no luck ,, missed out ,,, damn it20:26
coz_well I  have a few pieces to photograph,,, I need to eat  ,,,yummm... and assorted other t hings to take care of,,, be back later :)20:26
=== zniavre__ is now known as zniavre

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