[03:26] <werh> sup motherfuckers
[03:26] <werh> fuck u
[03:26] <werh> fuck u
[03:26] <werh> fuck u
[03:26] <werh> fuck u
[03:26] <werh> fuck u
[03:26] <werh> fuck u
[03:26] <werh> fuck u
[03:28] <elky> gangsta guy again?
[03:28] <IdleOne> yes
[03:29] <elky> hes in freenode. he really wants to sabotage that connection...
[03:33] <IdleOne> he is in #xubuntu now
[03:33] <elky> yeah, #f finally muted him
[04:56]  * rww ponders a "times robinetd has called someone a troll" counter
[04:57] <h00k> rww: don't hurt yourself on that one
[06:19] <tonyyarusso> Am I supposed to be caring about the LP group expiration notices?
[06:19]  * tonyyarusso can't remember how those were working
[06:24] <elky> tonyyarusso, they work in that you extend yourself if you're still around and caring enough to stay on the team.
[06:24] <elky> It's just a way of us figuring out who has disappeared.
[06:25] <elky> So if you don't do 'em, you've disappeared.
[06:25] <tonyyarusso> elky: Okay, so I am actually supposed to click extend.  Last time I got a slew of LP e-mails I'm pretty sure it was followed up by someone says "hehe, ignore that - just me spamming y'all!"
[06:26] <elky> Possibly when the groups were reorganised or something.
[06:26] <elky> or when jussi forgot to set it so we could renew.
[06:27] <tonyyarusso> gotcha
[06:27] <tonyyarusso> All right, taken care of.
[06:32] <elky> Besides, if you think *you* are getting spammed, pity my inbox.
[07:18] <Tm_T> uh, how did I see all my expiring launchpad groups again?
[07:37] <elky> Heh, robinetd is whinging about being banned from offtopic for a chloroform joke in a channel on oftc because someone joked about chloroform.
[07:40] <rww> I note that he was /removed for that, not banned :\
[07:42] <elky> Is he actually banned, or in self-exile?
[07:43] <rww> neither?
[07:43] <rww> he just enjoys nickchanging
[07:43] <elky> Ah what is he currently?
[07:43] <rww> moose
[07:44] <elky> I wondered why moose seemed familiar. That explains it
[07:44] <cdbs> :o
[07:44] <cdbs> -ot operator work is more difficult than #ubuntu
[07:44] <elky> Immensely.
[07:44] <rww> The part where moose calls everyone who talks in -ot a troll didn't tip you off?
[07:45] <Drule> Hey
[07:45] <rww> hi
[07:45] <Drule> I've been banned from #ubuntu-offtopic
[07:45] <Drule> if anyone would care to unban me
[07:45] <elky> rww, that's not really unique.
[07:45] <elky> Drule, why were you banned?
[07:45] <Drule>  -MemoServ- Memo 1 - Sent by Pici, Feb 16 23:42:47 2011
[07:45] <Drule>  -MemoServ- Hi.  Your connection appears to be unstable, so I've temporarily banned you from #ubuntu-offtopic.   Please visit #ubuntu-ops when things calm down for the ban to be removed.
[07:45] <Drule> I'm there now but I'm at work
[07:46] <rww> Drule: I removed that ban a few days ago when I noticed your connection had stabilized.
[07:46] <Drule> Aha.
[07:46] <rww> you should be all set.
[07:46] <Drule> Alright. Thanks pal.
[07:46] <rww> elky: you have a point.
[07:46] <cdbs> People go too offtopic on -ot
[07:47] <elky> cdbs, are you only now noticing this?
[07:48] <cdbs> elky: /me doesn't idle on -ot
[07:48] <cdbs> ah, now I am :)
[07:49]  * rww ponders moose
[07:49] <rww> he's learning, but in a suboptimal way. i don't know whether to be pleased or not.
[07:50] <cdbs> he's talking too much about ops on the channel
[07:50] <elky> <3 ikonia
[07:50] <rww> this should be interesting.
[07:51] <cdbs> ikonia: wha?
[07:51] <elky> cdbs, he was baiting me.
[07:51] <cdbs> :o
[07:51] <rww> oh, so it was you he was talking about. i was wondering.
[07:51] <elky> he knows he was baiting me. he could have PM'd and not baited me. He's quite well aware
[07:52] <elky> rww, i got up him on the other channel for mocking the chloroform implications.
[07:53] <ikonia> enough, it's a social channel, people shouldn't have to be monitored, he knew enough to say "it's wrong so I won't say it as a certain op is watching me" then he should have known enough not to say anything
[07:54] <elky> yeah
[07:54] <ikonia> he's been banned many times, people have spoke to him many times, he knows the rules
[07:54] <ikonia> fed up of watching him push them
[07:54] <elky> it's not like they never PM each other with channel breaking stuff all the time.
[07:54] <ikonia> participate in the channel and WANT to participate in the channel, orl eave
[07:56] <elky> Has he gone crying to the 'wah i don't want to follow rules' club yet?
[08:02] <rww> no
[08:03] <gnomefreak> yes ;)
[08:04] <rww> I don't think they've been introduced, in fact.
[08:04] <jussi> Just a reminder people, we are logged in here, so lets be careful on what we say about people.
[08:04] <ikonia> jussi: what was that in reponse to ?
[08:04] <ikonia> what comment needed a warning
[08:05] <ikonia> (what did we saw that was possible unacceptable)
[08:05] <jussi> ikonia: no comment, just the way the discussion seemed to be heading.
[08:05] <ikonia> ?
[08:05] <gnomefreak> were logged in here again or still?
[08:05] <ikonia> can you explain please I just saw a user being a problem being discussed rationally
[08:05] <jussi> gnomefreak: still.
[08:05] <gnomefreak> ah
[08:06]  * gnomefreak wasnt sure what i said yes to but that is fine for me
[08:08] <ikonia> moose is accusing me or log watching in other channels and punshing him in -ot for it. I have no idea what other channels he's in, as he's not in any that I'm in
[08:10] <jussi> ikonia: when we start talking about channels with names other than what they are, it can quickly go down hill.  I just wanted to remind people that we are logged and lets make sure we are keeping things sane.
[08:10] <Madpilot> sane?
[08:10] <rww> the 'wah i don't want to follow rules' club is a fairly accurate description of ##club-ubuntu
[08:11] <elky> jussi, it is the basis of the founding of that channel.
[08:11] <rww> and if it isn't, then i'm misusing it.
[08:11] <ikonia> jussi: ok, I see what you where refering to. I believe you are wrong, but I understand what you are saying
[08:11] <jussi> And I didnt say that it was wrong to say that, just that if we continue the discussion, it could quickly deteriorate - so lets be careful.
[08:12] <Madpilot> does our IRC team control of the Ubuntu namespace on Freenode not extend to ##club-ubuntu, if it becomes an issue and breeding ground of trollishness?
[08:12] <elky> You could have affixed it with "now now children" and not changed the tone one bit.
[08:12] <jussi> Madpilot: no
[08:12] <ikonia> jussi: just a heads up, we are not 10 years old and don't need reminders
[08:12] <rww> okay. in future, i think all the ops know that channel is logged and act accordingly, even newbs like me.
[08:12] <elky> Madpilot, the ## makes it not. The trademark policy explicitly forbids the wordmark's use in that configuration though
[08:13] <Madpilot> elky, the Ubuntu Trademark Policy?
[08:13]  * rww rolls off to sleep
[08:13] <elky> Madpilot, the very same.
[08:14] <Madpilot> bit of a blunt instrument to chase trolls with...
[08:14] <elky> Madpilot, it's a last resort, which is why it hasn't really been bothered with yet.
[08:14] <Madpilot> yeah
[08:16] <elky> he is also reading the channel logs and thanks to jussi is now in the previously unmentioned channel. Thanks.
[08:17] <elky> Or so he pings me on another network to inform me.
[08:17] <ikonia> he's not
[08:18] <jussi> rww: thats clearly not true, or else we wouldnt have had the complaints we have had in the past.  The fact is, in this channel, there are sometimes things we say, that ARE baiting the trolls, that are not helpful to calming the situations. We as operators and leaders in the community, especially in this channel, are expected to be of a  higher standard, we are expected to not bait, or respond to being baited.
[08:19] <elky> jussi, I'm at a loss as to how you expect us to know what we're dealing with if you forbid us from discussing it for fear that discussing it is going to be claimed as baiting.
[08:20] <elky> We don't name the channel explicitly because we don't particularly appreciate "disgruntled people" forming little armies. Which they do in that channel.
[08:20] <jussi> elky: I never said you couldnt discuss it!!! I just mentioned to be careful the discussion didnt got downhill.
[08:21] <tsimpson> elky: the logs only refresh once an hour, nothing said < 1 hour ago can be read
[08:21] <Madpilot> The Channel That Shall Not Be Named?
[08:22] <elky> tsimpson, they really run it as a :00 cron? lols
[08:23] <tsimpson> and jussi didn't say the name of the aforementioned channel either
[08:24] <elky> tsimpson, no, he just baited (ha!) someone else in to doing so.
[08:24] <tsimpson> I don't see how
[08:24] <elky> Then I suggest you re-read.
[08:25] <tsimpson> no, I see the context, I just don't see baiting
[08:25] <Madpilot> folks, the Channel That Shall Not Be Named is not exactly hard to find. A simple channel search for "ubuntu" brings it up. Chill.
[08:26] <Madpilot> in fact, assuming a simple alphabetical sort, it comes up well before all our official channels...
[08:26] <Madpilot> whether it's named in our logs here or not seems gloriously irrelevant.
[08:26] <elky> tsimpson, I don't see the baiting in describing the channel, either.
[08:27] <elky> Madpilot, not everyone is so... lacking alternative vocation... that they read every line of the logs. The fewer people who stumble on that channel in casual glancing, the happier I'll be.
[08:30] <Madpilot> right, so we won't say Voldemort's name. No worries.
[08:35] <Madpilot> So are Freenode staff aware that ##club-ubuntu is basically -troll-ubuntu-ops?
[08:36] <elky> Yes.
[09:15] <help--me> hello
[09:15] <help--me> can someone unban webchat from #ubuntu
[09:15] <help--me> >>>>>> *!*@gateway/web/*
[09:15] <help--me> tks
[09:17] <Tm_T> help--me: cannot be done, but we have an automated system which grants exceptions
[09:17] <help--me> why did u quiet all webchat users
[09:17] <help--me> now i cant chat
[09:18] <help--me> ok now i can
[09:19] <gnomefreak> i guess we have had issues with webchat users
[09:20] <Tm_T> unsurprisingly, it has been abused, yes
[09:20] <gnomefreak> makes sense
[09:22] <ikonia> I must have missed that one, I thought it let people in now ?
[09:22] <elky> ikonia, it does.
[09:22] <elky> i just tested
[09:22] <ikonia> oh, did help--me just abuse it ?
[09:22] <elky> no, PEBCAK i think
[09:23] <gnomefreak> im watching him just in case. but i dont think he is going to be able to fix it
[09:25] <elky> This is my surprised face.
[09:26] <gnomefreak> hes done for now.
[09:26] <gnomefreak> :O
[09:29] <elky> gnomefreak, though I'm pretty sure http://snipplr.com/view/846/set-default-editor-in-linux/ was what he was wanting to do.
[09:30] <elky> Which happens to be the second google result for 'set default editor linux'
[09:30] <gnomefreak> elky: ah i didnt relize that was an option in .bashrc
[09:30] <elky> You never stop learning with linux.
[09:31] <gnomefreak> that is so very true
[09:32] <Tm_T> hmm, considering that IIRC nano is default editor in Ubuntu...
[09:32] <gnomefreak> Tm_T: it is or at least was in maverick
[09:59] <elky> Tm_T, well yes, if it hasn't been changed on you. Remember he said he didn't have root.
[10:00] <Tm_T> I actually suspect that he wasn't running on Ubuntu, not that it really matters
[10:03] <elky> Yeah. I'm going to guess it was a kid in a classroom looking at vi going whaaaaathelldoido?!
[10:19] <bazhang> I got the launchpad notifications as well; was renewing in #ubuntu+1 simply not necessary?
[10:20] <elky> Why wouldn't it be?
[10:20] <elky> If you don't, we'll assume you no longer want the job.
[10:21] <bazhang> my understanding was that ops in #ubuntu or other 'core channels' got ops there as well
[10:22] <elky> Since when?
[10:23] <bazhang> since I was granted ops there; that was my recollection, at least
[10:38] <elky> Either way, renew it or we'll assume you've quit and take your access for that channel :P
[10:38] <bazhang> oh, I did.
[10:39] <bazhang> #ubuntu and #xubuntu
[12:26] <ikonia> @mark #pm moose moose trying to bait me in a pm asking to discuss his ban then starts making comments about getting songs remastered for myself and elky, trying to be insulting and stupid, this guy should be dropped and forgot about
[12:27] <ikonia> @mark #ubuntu moose moose trying to bait me in a pm asking to discuss his ban then starts making comments about getting songs remastered for myself and elky, trying to be insulting and stupid, this guy should be dropped and forgot about
[12:27] <bazhang> just @mark should do
[12:27] <ikonia> reall y?
[12:27] <bazhang> yep
[12:27] <ikonia> @mark moose moose trying to bait me in a pm asking to discuss his ban then starts making comments about getting songs remastered for myself and elky, trying to be insulting and stupid, this guy should be dropped and forgot about
[12:27] <bazhang> since he's not doing it in a channel
[12:27] <ikonia> ahhh cool
[12:27] <ikonia> thank you
[12:28] <ikonia> he's made that comment then put me on +g so ignoring requests, I just think it's best to forget about him rather than keep wasting time when he wants to cause a problem/be stupid
[12:28] <bazhang> yep
[13:18] <gord> just wondering, whats the logic in the expiration of membership in the ops launchpad team? you only get 7 days notice, if your on holiday for a week you could easily miss that
[13:19] <Pici> gord: We had a lot of people on the access lists who hadn't been active on IRC or even in Ubuntu for some time.
[13:19] <Pici> As well as documenting elsewhere who had access where, it made it easy to ensure that only interested people were going to keep their access.
[13:29] <gord> makes sense, but the 7 day warning has me worried
[13:29] <gord> not sure if you can change that in lp
[13:29] <ikonia> just make sure you do'nt holidy
[13:29] <ikonia> don't
[13:30] <Pici> Me either. But I'm sure that the nice folks on the IRCC would be understanding if your membership lapsed while you were indisposed.
[15:17] <ikonia> 15:15 < Pici> Cradam: Then you can explain to them otherwise.
[15:17] <ikonia> golden
[15:22] <rww> You can't change it in LP. My LoCo had this discussion when we moved to expiring memberships; there's a bug for that somewhere.
[15:23] <rww> and @mark without a channel defaults to the current channel, or errors in PM.
[15:23] <Pici> right.
[15:30] <rww> jussi: Your argument only makes sense if those complaints are actually valid, and not "trolls" trolling. If we all sat around and ate tea and cupcakes and talked nicely 102% of the time in here, some people would /still/ find something to latch onto and whine about.
[15:32] <gord> rww, you basically just described my life :P
[15:33] <IdleOne> Good morning everybody.
[15:34] <IdleOne> Special o/ to the log readers
[15:35] <rww> and while I agree we need a private channel, the concept of having special CC logging to make us accountable or whatever on technology that has the ability to trivially make unlogged, unaccountable side-channels or PMs that defeat said logging seems odd. But if doing that will make someone more comfortable with it, whatevs.
[15:35]  * rww sets mode rww -soapbox
[15:36] <IdleOne> Go tell it on the mountain
[15:43] <Tm_T> hi all
[15:45] <jrib> ola Tm_T
[15:45] <Amaranth> Well, we could always just make _this_ channel's log only accessible to IRCC or CC if you really want a channel like that.
[15:46] <Amaranth> Because if you have a channel like that everyone will stop talking in here
[15:46] <jrib> well this channel would be to resolve disputes with users
[15:47] <Amaranth> If the user doesn't like the resolution they need to appeal to one of the groups that would be able to see the logs
[15:47] <Amaranth> So that doesn't really make a difference
[15:47] <Tm_T> transparency--
[15:48] <Tm_T> public logs are our ammunition too
[15:48] <jrib> Amaranth: I'd say there's some benefit from everyone being able to see how disputes are resolved by ops
[15:48] <Amaranth> Transparency is going away either way if you have a backchannel
[15:49] <Tm_T> Amaranth: which is why we have to be very careful about it, wether we have it at all and for what use
[15:49] <Tm_T> it's quite rare occasion when I find public logs an issue
[15:50] <ikonia> we tend to make our own issue out of them
[15:50] <IdleOne> the use would be to warn the rest of the ops who are not part of the core ops team/channels that there is a troll looking to break our balls.
[15:50] <Tm_T> and in those cases, the freenode staff is needed too
[15:50] <IdleOne> damn
[15:50] <IdleOne> sorry for that
[15:50]  * Tm_T huggles IdleOne
[15:51] <IdleOne> The logs of this channel have been used to harass more then one of us, if not every single one of us in here.
[15:51] <Tm_T> I know
[15:52] <Amaranth> So in about an hour another channel I'm in is going to have some pinging me about what we're talking about now
[15:52] <ikonia> Amaranth: I had it today from moose/robert
[15:52] <ikonia> Amaranth: an hour after he was banned pm'd me quoting logs at me from cdbs asking me to explain his comments
[15:52] <ikonia> totally out of context but using it as a reason to show a vendetta?
[15:52] <Tm_T> IdleOne: I haven't got any harrassment from the logs, but perhaps that has to do with my shrunk activity
[15:53] <ikonia> that is a direct quote
[15:53] <ikonia> 10:26 <moose> I was waiting for logs to refresh and got distracted
[15:53] <ikonia> so he could use the channels conversation at the time
[15:53] <Tm_T> ikonia: and if you do not do anything you need to regret, it shouldn't be a problem (there are exceptions ofcourse)
[15:54] <ikonia> Tm_T: "shouldn't" is the problem
[15:54] <Tm_T> I know
[15:54] <Tm_T> there is no easy solution
[15:54] <IdleOne> Tm_T: perhaps. I have been harassed and stalked because of channel logs. just a few days ago someone I believed to be a friend sent me a msg and it turned out he was trolling for a well know troll/stalker/complete mental case.
[15:55] <ikonia> see IdleOne's comment of "mental case" will now be used at a later date
[15:55] <ikonia> despite the fact he's just explaining the situation
[15:55] <ikonia> "see you called me mental, you have a vendetta against me"
[15:55] <ikonia> despite the fact that the person may have been banned 100+ times
[15:55] <Tm_T> IdleOne: I might have had similar cases, but usually my PM:s end up relatively peacefully so cannot say...
[15:56] <Tm_T> ikonia: have you seen me using such terms? (;
[15:56] <IdleOne> I don't have a vendetta against anybody but when you threaten me and my family over a ban on IRC that happens 2 months ago. I see that as clear sign of mental problems.
[15:56] <IdleOne> s.happenes/happened/
[15:56] <Amaranth> btw, random thought, I find it amusing we swear in the development channels
[15:57] <Amaranth> I guess we've graduated though :)
[15:57] <Tm_T> Amaranth: I don't (:
[15:57] <Amaranth> People say 'damn', 'shit', and 'wtf' all the time though
[15:57] <Tm_T> err, I don't swear, but I find it somewhat amusing too
[15:57] <ikonia> Amaranth: I don't find that funny
[15:57] <ikonia> Amaranth: I know what you're saying but those channels are supposed to follow the same code
[15:58] <jussi> Hrm, interesting backlog
[15:58] <Tm_T> ikonia: I agree on that
[15:58] <Amaranth> ikonia: But they don't because we don't have the ability to enforce it :P
[15:58] <IdleOne> jussi: my vote for a new coordination channel is +1 and I promise to follow the guidelines and CoC even more so then I do in the logged channels
[15:58] <jussi> be nice if some of you posted to the list though...
[15:58] <Amaranth> ikonia: And we'd probably get ourselves booted from the channels if we really tried
[15:59] <popey> jussi: +1
[15:59] <popey> there's a swathe of people who won't see this entire conversation
[15:59] <Amaranth> I used to want to post to mailing lists
[16:00] <Tm_T> I will try to throw some thoughts about this later today
[16:00] <Amaranth> Sure, I'll see about tossing something on there
[16:02] <Tm_T> I wish I had more time to think and work on these things ):
[16:05]  * popey hands Tm_T back the last 40 mins of their life spent discussing it here. Use some of that?
[16:12] <Tm_T> not enough, but thanks (:
[17:15] <mneptok> an -ops-defocus channel is a very good idea, IMO. with no public logging, but logs for the CC only (to ensure real business is not discussed in "private").
[17:16] <mneptok> the IRCC and CC can make one that they know about with rules, or await the inevitable creation of such a channel "off-the-grid"
[17:16] <mneptok> (which would be really bad)
[17:21] <IdleOne> -irc-helpers needs a purpose for existing
[17:21] <IdleOne> whatever the channel name is the channel is needed
[17:27] <kEnumerationE> The truth of the dilapidated rape. I love you girl. Cassie, I still smell the beach . I remember when we could chat on Guild Wars, and every whisper from you staggered my man-nipples .
[17:27] <kEnumerationE> Some may call that flower power, but I know from the bottom of our feet that the sand blankets were no lie.
[17:27] <kEnumerationE> We live in a plastic ring with mobius ocean. The sight of your body evokes the memory of fishing hooks being ripped impromptu out of the tops of my fingers.
[17:27] <kEnumerationE> We had a pet duck you and I. In the world beyond ours, where civilization was crumbled. The one we lived in on Guild Wars. But the tenseness eventually killed our pet duck. And we buried your hair and my testicles with it.
[17:27] <kEnumerationE> To think with my dick now, I can't ignore the ray intersections in the cracks the sidewalks from the head of my pepe. They went everywhere and even jumped into the gaps of earth that led nowhere.
[17:27] <kEnumerationE> How much more passionate can I be for you? We tried everything, even peeing in each other's mouths. Nothing would wake us from the dream. But we got over it and sadly know how much it kills us that we aren't living together.
[17:27] <kEnumerationE> Feed your boob's children. The nest, which we would pull the my weener rope out from the nucleus of the eggs. To Toss it in to the sadly Roman Colosseum .
[17:27] <kEnumerationE> And everynight for five years we would awake and let the blue jays carry us by our ears to release us on the powerlines as we slid around the globe to meet yet another day.
[17:27] <kEnumerationE> I love you Cassie, and if we can be together just once more we can lay naked side by side, and have a giant boulder fall from the sky and crush our bodies.
[17:27] <kEnumerationE> Such love, such care. If only I could come to your state across the country. I miss u.
[17:27] <kEnumerationE> XoXo from a lonely, roasted, marshmallow bone
[17:30] <IdleOne> he is hitting several ubuntu channels
[17:30] <ikonia> what a delight
[17:30] <knome> italian delight
[18:26] <rww> IdleOne: if the channel is needed, how come y'all had such a hard time figuring out a reason or purpose why it's needed ;P
[18:27] <ikonia> thank you Pici didn't know about that one
[18:27] <Pici> man hier is actually pretty informative
[18:43] <rww> jussi: would be nice if my mail client were set up as well as my IRC client, but I mailed the list anyway ;)
[20:21] <ikonia> Pici: I checked this earlier and he wasn't trying to use wubi
[20:21] <ikonia> he wanted to install onto NTFS
[20:21]  * Pici headdesks
[20:22] <ikonia> I know
[20:25] <ikonia> aman - why do I know that nick ?
[20:25] <Pici> I have a coworker named Aman
[20:26] <ikonia> I don't think that's the reason.
[20:26] <Pici> Oh :(
[20:27] <ikonia> why can people not respond to questions with an answer,
[20:27] <ikonia> "what host are you doing this from" "root level" ????
[20:34] <ikonia> I'll share a console with you and we can do a test
[20:35] <ikonia> what the devil is that
[20:35] <rww> welcome back, log readers!
[20:35] <rww> ikonia: ubuntulog's altnick
[20:36] <ikonia> ooh
[20:36] <Pici> its lo1 not lol
[20:37] <jrib> ikonia: i will not take that bet, no
[20:37] <ikonia> jrib: wimp.....
[20:37] <jrib> ikonia: but maybe later we can find out
[20:37] <ikonia> I'll still do a session share if you want to have a play
[20:37] <ikonia> or you can just test it on your own
[20:37] <jrib> sure, though I'm stepping out for a few hours
[20:37] <ikonia> I'm not doing it tonight, I'm not in the mood
[20:37] <IdleOne> heh
[20:37] <ikonia> infact, I may call it an evening
[20:40] <Pici> I wish I could.  I need to go to a stupid class after I leave work.
[21:10] <ikonia> I thought tor was banned ?
[21:10] <rww> !tor-sasl
[21:10] <ikonia> ooh,
[21:11] <rww> and it's not banned on #ubuntu, presumably because the shiny new sasl thing doesn't get abused as much.,
[21:11] <ikonia> Pricey: when did you leave staff ?
[21:11]  * rww hasn't seen any instances of abuse, actually
[21:11] <ikonia> rww: reasonable, if it's not abused why ban it
[21:12] <gnomefreak> he still wears the staff cloak
[21:12] <gnomefreak> or at least one of them
[21:12] <rww> gnomefreak: "staff-emeritus" means they left ;)
[21:13] <gnomefreak> oh oops
[21:13] <gnomefreak> i would have thought they would want "staff" removed from cloak
[21:14] <ikonia> nah, you still have your school badges and stuff like that
[21:14] <ikonia> it's nice to see they where once part of the staff team, like an old club
[21:20] <jussi> getting that cloak depends how you leave staff ;)
[21:20] <ikonia> it's nice
[21:30] <ikonia> Daviey: if you want to raise it on the mail lists, I'll be happy to chip in too
[21:31] <Daviey> ikonia, No, i'm quite ok with it.
[21:31] <ikonia> I'll raise it with the council
[21:31] <Daviey> It's ubuntu userspace, and that is what i'm happy to support
[21:31] <Daviey> If a kernel issue happens, then i'll wash my hands.
[21:32] <ikonia> I know, the kernel won't matter in this but it's the line of no-mofidied distro support
[21:33] <ikonia> if I'm wrong on it I'll apologise but thats what I've always been told
[21:33] <rww> Where is this?
[21:33] <Daviey> ikonia, If i see something userspace that is causing the issue, then i agree.. it's not something I/We have time for
[21:34] <ikonia> Daviey: if I agree with it or not I'm just trying to get the policy clarified now
[21:34] <Daviey> But simply because it's not a ubuntu kernel is no a "get out" and way to block someone from support IMO.
[21:34] <ikonia> there are a ton of things I don't agree with
[21:34] <ikonia> Daviey: actually if the policy of not supporting custom builds is correct, then we don't support it is the right stance
[21:34] <ikonia> even if I agree with it or not
[21:34] <Daviey> ikonia, Well - i am happy to help him, and i'm not going to turn him away.
[21:35] <ikonia> it depends if you want to follow the policy (assuming I'm right of course) or not
[21:35] <KB1JWQ> ikonia: Again, this isn't #centos.  In some ways that attitude has become that channel's pervasive problem-- and I don't think the issue in question is related to the kernel in any case.
[21:35] <KB1JWQ> ikonia: So effectively what you're doing is looking for a reason not to answer a valid question.
[21:35] <ikonia> KB1JWQ: if I'm wrong, I'm happy to help him
[21:36] <Daviey> KB1JWQ, Without pointing fingers at other channels, that was my thought.
[21:36] <ikonia> but as I understood it the policy isn't custom ubuntu builds
[21:36] <ikonia> if I'm wrong on that, I'm happy to help
[21:36] <KB1JWQ> Daviey: I've been in that channel for years, I earned the right to point fingers. :-p
[21:36] <ikonia> if I agree with it or not is a differnt matter, but I'm trying to follow the polies laid down if I agree or not with them
[21:36] <KB1JWQ> ikonia: Yeah, but realize that there are official EC2 builds-- that runs on god knows what kernel, and it changes.
[21:37] <Daviey> ikonia, and again, please provide a link to where that policy was formed.
[21:37] <ikonia> KB1JWQ: yuip they are official releases
[21:37] <ikonia> Daviey: we both know there are holes in what's documented, that's why I'll raise it with the council for clarification
[21:37] <ikonia> Daviey: if I'm wrong I'll be happy to support them going forward
[21:37] <Daviey> ikonia, and until such time, it's ok to help.
[21:37] <ikonia> I can only go with what I've been told
[21:37] <KB1JWQ> ikonia: You just represented this as the policy to an end user though,
[21:38] <ikonia> ok - then I'll get clarification now and won't mention it until then
[21:38] <ikonia> I can only go with what I've been told
[21:39] <rww> and what we've been telling users in #ubuntu for years
[21:39] <rww> which I understand doesn't reflect on #ubuntu-server necessarily, but *shrug*
[21:39] <ikonia> I'm mailing the council now so we'll get it clarfied
[21:40] <ikonia> if it's wrong then it needs to be correct as I'm pushing the wrong policy
[21:40] <Daviey> It's never been a concern in -server previously, and i would be sad if it was made so.
[21:40] <ikonia> well, I believe the -server channel falls under the same IRC policies as the rest so it will be for all or none
[21:41] <Daviey> ikonia, No.. #ubuntu's traffic problem makes it a different scenario to -server.
[21:42] <ikonia> no it doesn't
[21:42] <Daviey> I disagree.
[21:42] <ikonia> if you disagree or not doesn't matter, the ubuntu name space channel falls under the same rules as I undertand it
[21:42] <ikonia> there is a ton of stuff I don't agree with
[21:43] <Daviey> ikonia, If you don't feel comfortable helping server users running a different kernel... that is fine.. but please don't block those that are happy to help.
[21:43] <ikonia> no
[21:43] <ikonia> that's not what I'm saying
[21:43] <ikonia> I'm happy to help
[21:43] <Daviey> ikonia, Equally -devel is treated differently to #ubuntu.... why is that?
[21:43] <ikonia> however if the policy is not to then I'm not going to
[21:43] <ikonia> Daviey: it shouldn't be
[21:44] <Daviey> ikonia, Okay, please make sure you !ohmy and ban developers for not following policy.
[21:44] <ikonia> Daviey: that's been raised already,
[21:44] <ikonia> and not by me
[21:44] <ikonia> I'm not writing the policy here, I'm just trying to support the people who do if I agree with it or not
[21:45] <Daviey> ikonia, As i said... if you want to abide by, what i can only see as a fictional policy, feel free.  But please do not hinder those that are trying to help.. It causes a distraction.
[21:45] <ikonia> hence why I'm writing a mail now to get clarification, as if I'm wrong I don't want to push out the wrong message
[21:46] <Daviey> But you *have* been pushing a wrong message, by trying to enforce what is a non-policy!
[21:46] <ikonia> oh right
[21:46] <ikonia> so I'm wrong, is that a fact ?
[21:46] <Daviey> Until such time that the council confirm, or you find documented proof - it is wrong.
[21:46] <ikonia> ooh,
[21:46] <ikonia> in that case I can talk about centos
[21:46] <Daviey> Hmm
[21:47] <ikonia> as until that's written down or confirmed, that is acceptable ?
[21:47] <Daviey> That isn't related to the ubuntu server seed, is it?
[21:47] <ikonia> please show me in the policy guidelines where it says I can't talk about centos
[21:47] <ikonia> there are many holes in the written documents as I'm saying (that doesn't mean I'm right) but please don't call it fictional or wrong as it make it appear your suggesting I've made it up
[21:47] <Daviey> ikonia, Ubuntu server do not, generally, work on the kernel.. We largely only care about user space.
[21:48] <ikonia> Daviey: show me the policy that says we support all ubuntu user space derivatives
[21:48] <ikonia> Daviey: how do you know what else has been modified, he has root login
[21:48] <Daviey> So if someone is talking about ubuntu server user space, that is all we care about.
[21:48] <Daviey> Unless the kernel becomes a concern.
[21:48] <ikonia> Daviey: where is that set as a guidelines
[21:48] <ikonia> Daviey: so do you support mint ?
[21:48] <ikonia> in #ubuntu-server ?
[21:49] <Daviey> Does that use the ubuntu server seed?
[21:49] <ikonia> yes
[21:49] <ikonia> it's based on ubuntu
[21:49] <ikonia> even runs the same kernel
[21:50] <Daviey> Oh, i didn't know that.  You are certain they germinate their package set based on ubuntu server seed?
[21:50] <ikonia> I believe so
[21:50] <ikonia> again, I could be wrong
[21:50]  * Daviey suspects you are.
[21:50] <rww> Mint has a server edition?
[21:50] <ikonia> rww: I thought there was a server kernel for it in their repo ?
[21:51] <ikonia> I'm only using it as example though of a derivative
[21:51] <rww> ikonia: you might want to check what "seed" means :\
[21:52] <ikonia> give me the correct definition
[21:52] <rww> see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SeedManagement
[21:52] <Daviey> ikonia, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SeedManagement
[21:52] <Daviey> pah
[21:54] <Daviey> The packages in the server seed are the core of what we support, but additionally we recognise that there are more than just the main packages... which is why we have more packages we watch out for.
[21:54] <Daviey> https://bugs.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server/+packagebugs
[21:54] <Daviey> ^^ Not a full list.
[21:56] <ikonia> sorry had email open
[21:58] <ikonia> Daviey: who says "we support" ?
[21:58] <ikonia> Daviey: (just reading through it all now)
[22:00] <ikonia> it's a good read that I can't see anything that says we offer support to anything built of these
[22:00] <ikonia> (still reading though)
[22:00] <Daviey> ikonia, Server developers and the community around it.
[22:00] <ikonia> Daviey: where does it say that ?
[22:01] <Daviey> https://bugs.launchpad.net/*~ubuntu-server*
[22:01] <ikonia> page 404's
[22:01] <Daviey> I'm attempting to hilight the launchpad team..
[22:01] <ikonia> ahh sorry
[22:01] <ikonia> that team doesn't have a page that says we support distros built of these packages
[22:02] <ikonia> not trying to be an arse, but that's the logic your using for saying what I've been told is wrong
[22:02] <Daviey> No, but equally - i don't claim to offer support for kernelspace for 'other' distro's...
[22:03] <ikonia> if #ubuntu-server has an exception, then that's fine, as I've said I'm not saying I'm right, hence why I've asked for the council to clarify
[22:03] <Daviey> This is ubuntu server userspace we are discussing
[22:03] <Daviey> okay, great.
[22:03] <ikonia> Daviey: how do you know what else was changed on that box ?
[22:03] <ikonia> as part of that vps's re-spin/modifications
[22:03] <Daviey> ikonia, when we are talking about cp'ing files from one place to another, i really don't care what else has been changed.
[22:04] <ikonia> ok
[22:04] <Daviey> Equally, if someone has dirtied their box using non-offical PPA's which are unrelated to the issue being discussed, it's irrelevant
[22:04] <ikonia> I'll leave it there and see what the council comes back with
[22:04] <ikonia> if I'm wrong, I'll be more than happy to offer support for these products, I have no personal issue with it
[22:06] <rww> derivatives support in #ubuntu would be interesting, in a non-positive-but-i'm-curious sense.
[22:06] <ikonia> stupid emails just bounced
[22:07] <ikonia> got the right address this time
[23:06] <jrib> If there's a dedicated channel that can better address a person's issue I point them there.  And if there isn't and I can offer some advice despite it not being an ubuntu issue I try to do so.  That's always been my attitude towards this issue
[23:07]  * jrib is proud of his < 1 hour lag