| micahg | ochosi: mr_pouit: Debian's not cooperating, so I'll just upload gmusicbrowser straight to Ubuntu with the changes I made to the Debian package | 02:48 |
|---|---|---|
| ochosi | micahg: ok, but does that mean we can then simply supersede it with packages from the ppa or is it still better to apply all patches individually? | 02:49 |
| micahg | ochosi: the patches are still just UI, right? | 02:49 |
| ochosi | micahg: btw, the mpris2 plugin will be ready by tomorrow (i guess still thursday), i tested them a few hrs ago | 02:49 |
| ochosi | micahg: yes | 02:49 |
| micahg | will there be a new usptream tommorow? freeze is 18:00 UTC | 02:50 |
| ochosi | well it will be in git tomorrow, most likely not as a 1.1.7 release | 02:50 |
| ochosi | would we need that? | 02:50 |
| ochosi | can't we do something like a 1.1.6git version? (i thought ubuntu does/did that for a lot of packages, e.g. murrine) | 02:51 |
| ochosi | it's a pity debian isn't cooperating... | 02:51 |
| ochosi | still very cool that you tried it | 02:51 |
| micahg | I would only want to do that if there will be a full release without new feaures before beta | 02:51 |
| micahg | but I guess mr_pouit can make the call | 02:52 |
| ochosi | you mean a simple bugfix release? | 02:52 |
| ochosi | ok, i'll discuss it with him tomorrow | 02:53 |
| micahg | ochosi: right, a 1.1.7 or ideally a 1.2.0 | 02:53 |
| ochosi | micahg: hm, gmusicbrowser's dev is really really conservative about releases and version numbers, 1.1.x is used for dev-releases for more than a year now | 02:53 |
| ochosi | tiny features are missing so he's not bumping it to 1.2 | 02:53 |
| ochosi | (1.1.x is a rewrite of 1.0) | 02:54 |
| micahg | ok, well, let's see what happens in the morning, once we get the release in, we can still sync from Debian later | 02:57 |
| micahg | I'm going to try to work it out with the last uploader | 02:57 |
| micahg | he's afraid because it's a devel release | 02:57 |
| mr_pouit | micahg: feel free to upload either a git snapshot or 1.1.6 (in any case, we'll need a few post-1.1.6 features, such as xdg base dirs spec support, so we'll probably have to ask for a few exceptions) | 07:04 |
| micahg | mr_pouit: ok, it's worth getting at least 1.1.6 in though, right? | 07:05 |
| mr_pouit | yep, definitely | 07:06 |
| micahg | mr_pouit: ok, will do, thanks | 07:06 |
| mr_pouit | ok, thanks a lot :) (g2g, sorry) | 07:07 |
| micahg | \o/ I just got the ok for gmusicbrowser to go in experimental :) | 08:17 |
| micahg | even better, it's going to unstable :) | 08:39 |
| Sysi | are we going to not have workspace switcher on panel on natty by default? | 10:20 |
| mr_pouit | micahg: woo, I saw it has been synced ;-) | 10:23 |
| micahg | mr_pouit: I just filed the bug so far | 10:42 |
| mr_pouit | micahg: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gmusicbrowser/1.1.6-1 | 10:50 |
| micahg | err, he's not supposed to do that :-/ | 10:51 |
| mr_pouit | (ahah, ok, I'm not the only one who doesn't use syncpackage then) | 10:51 |
| micahg | eh, I've given up for the moment chasing after people for it | 10:54 |
| ochosi | hey micahg, congrats on the debian packaging! | 13:47 |
| knome | charlie-tca, you around? | 14:26 |
| charlie-tca | Good morning | 15:09 |
| charlie-tca | knome: here now | 15:09 |
| ochosi | hey charlie-tca | 15:17 |
| knome | charlie-tca, the ubuntu wiki is *slow*. it is really hard to work with it, which is one of the things we set up our own. | 15:31 |
| knome | anyway, there's a new menu proposal at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Toolbox/MenuNew | 15:31 |
| charlie-tca | yes, it is slow. But it is the official wiki, one of the reasons we use it. | 15:34 |
| knome | yes, but it renders itself unusable | 15:34 |
| charlie-tca | um, seems dark red on dark blue is not really readable | 15:34 |
| knome | i really don't want to use half of my day waiting the wiki to update the pages | 15:34 |
| ochosi | :) | 15:35 |
| knome | i rather just skip doing then... | 15:35 |
| knome | we can't affect the link color. | 15:35 |
| knome | besides, it's orange :P | 15:35 |
| ochosi | i agree with knome, the wiki-speed is really a field to improve | 15:35 |
| charlie-tca | Then we need a brighter blue | 15:35 |
| charlie-tca | We need to be able to read the menu | 15:35 |
| knome | yeah, the colors need improving | 15:35 |
| knome | especially the middle section | 15:35 |
| knome | that's why it's not default already :P :P | 15:35 |
| charlie-tca | The dark blue is no good | 15:35 |
| Sysi | i find it strange that we use ubuntu wiki | 15:36 |
| Sysi | it's *Ubuntu*, orange, and does kubuntu have own? | 15:36 |
| charlie-tca | If canonical gave us our own domain, we would not use ubuntu wiki. | 15:36 |
| knome | Sysi, yes, they had their own *theme* | 15:36 |
| ochosi | would be nice to have our own small dokuwiki attached to xubuntu.org | 15:36 |
| knome | charlie-tca, i'm sure we could set up a dokuwiki in wiki.xubuntu.org. | 15:37 |
| knome | ochosi, ^ | 15:37 |
| knome | at least, we could ask. | 15:37 |
| ochosi | +1 | 15:37 |
| knome | pleia2, | 15:38 |
| knome | pleia2, would you mind adding an rt ticket for setting up a dokuwiki installation in wiki.xubuntu.org? | 15:39 |
| charlie-tca | slow down | 15:39 |
| knome | pleia2, (as you seem to get things done with the IS) | 15:39 |
| charlie-tca | when did we (Xubuntu) make that decision? | 15:39 |
| knome | i don't want to slow down the wiki any more ;) | 15:39 |
| knome | we can *ask* if we'd get one? | 15:39 |
| charlie-tca | Who decided you get to make that decision? | 15:40 |
| charlie-tca | We are just going to abandon the ubuntu wiki without checking into what the options are first. | 15:40 |
| charlie-tca | I don't think so. We need to look into things. | 15:41 |
| cody-somerville | I can guarantee that request will be denied. | 15:41 |
| knome | charlie-tca, since when did we go back to dictatorship? | 15:42 |
| charlie-tca | knome: we are not just moving the wiki | 15:42 |
| charlie-tca | When you become the dictator? | 15:42 |
| knome | charlie-tca, of course we are not just moving the wiki | 15:42 |
| knome | but we can investigate if it's even a possibility | 15:43 |
| charlie-tca | You just made the decision, didn't you? | 15:43 |
| knome | no, i didn't make a single decision | 15:43 |
| charlie-tca | <knome> pleia2, would you mind adding an rt ticket for setting up a dokuwiki installation in wiki.xubuntu.org? | 15:43 |
| knome | the fact that we would have dokuwiki there doesn't mean we're going to move anything there | 15:44 |
| knome | does it? | 15:44 |
| * micahg still has the kubuntu theme on teh wiki :) | 15:44 | |
| charlie-tca | yes, it does, the way yo9u work | 15:44 |
| charlie-tca | We are not officially funded, kubuntu is. That seems to give kubuntu a bit more leeway in how they do things. | 15:44 |
| knome | aren't we assuming things again? | 15:44 |
| charlie-tca | No, I don't think so. I think you are jumping the gun and making a decision that is not yours to make. | 15:45 |
| cody-somerville | knome, I can guarantee a request for a DokuWiki instance would be denied. | 15:46 |
| knome | cody-somerville, does that mean we shouldn't even ask? i remember you saying that IS might not allow wordpress either, and now we're on our way to having one. | 15:47 |
| knome | charlie-tca, i apologise, but as i told, the way ubuntu wiki is now renders it unusable for me. | 15:47 |
| micahg | cody-somerville: would we be able to request a theme on the Ubuntu wiki? | 15:47 |
| charlie-tca | Why are we asking if we have not made any decision to use it? | 15:47 |
| cody-somerville | With enough prodding, yes. | 15:47 |
| knome | micahg, it's not really about the theme (i suppose that's possible), but the slowness | 15:48 |
| micahg | charlie-tca: an option to consider maybe? | 15:48 |
| charlie-tca | micahg: yes, that is a good option to consider. | 15:48 |
| knome | i see only minor improvement in having an own theme. | 15:48 |
| charlie-tca | I don't have much hope for it, but that is because accessibility has been trying to get a theme approved for a very long time already | 15:49 |
| knome | charlie-tca, i had some conversations with the website folks, and i think we could get a xubuntu theme there, if we wanted | 15:49 |
| charlie-tca | As a separate distribution, we might be able to get a theme approved. | 15:50 |
| knome | let's get back to the original issue | 15:50 |
| cody-somerville | I'd encourage noise making about the wiki.u.c speed. I have to admit its getting pretty unbearable. | 15:50 |
| knome | cody-somerville, it has been that for the last, what, 3 years? | 15:50 |
| knome | people HAVE made noise about it | 15:50 |
| knome | i seems like there is not going to be any change about that | 15:50 |
| charlie-tca | then why haven't the website folks done anything about it? | 15:50 |
| knome | i don't know. | 15:51 |
| knome | i moaned about the slowness of the wiki when we got the new theme, and they said they are going to do something about it | 15:51 |
| cody-somerville | theres been a lot of changes in the organizational structure of IS inside of Canonical. You'll probably have more success in getting something done about it now. | 15:51 |
| knome | they did - and it got slightly faster - for a while | 15:51 |
| knome | cody-somerville, considering it's not the xubuntu wiki, but the whole ubuntu wiki, something should have done about it already | 15:52 |
| charlie-tca | It's time to squeak and whine again then | 15:52 |
| charlie-tca | cody-somerville: what about trying to get a domain approved, and split the wiki for Xubuntu? | 15:52 |
| knome | charlie-tca, what if you, as the respected and might powerful xubuntu project lead, whined about it? | 15:52 |
| charlie-tca | I am willing to whine about it. I just need some other whiners with me | 15:53 |
| ochosi | :D | 15:53 |
| ochosi | sounds like fun | 15:53 |
| knome | i've whined about it so many times i can't even count the times with my fingers and toes | 15:53 |
| charlie-tca | When I whined about accessibility, I stood alone, and that failed bad | 15:53 |
| knome | that's the problem. | 15:54 |
| charlie-tca | but I will pursue this, as project leader. That does give some push, sometimes. | 15:54 |
| knome | i suppose that's the ubuntu way of governance | 15:54 |
| knome | poke from below, and you get pushed in the mud | 15:54 |
| cody-somerville | complain to Jono or Jorge Castro | 15:54 |
| mr_pouit | bwahaha | 15:54 |
| mr_pouit | (sorry) | 15:55 |
| knome | they'll say the wiki is so awesome so it can be slow | 15:55 |
| knome | AWESOME MAN | 15:55 |
| charlie-tca | but back to my question, what about getting a domain approved and set up a Xubuntu wiki under moinmoin? | 15:55 |
| knome | GREAT THAT YOU EXPRESSED YOUR FEELINSG | 15:55 |
| mr_pouit | charlie-tca: doesn't the slowness come from moinmoin? :( | 15:55 |
| knome | from the overloaded moinmoin, yes | 15:56 |
| mr_pouit | (or only from the ubuntu wiki architecture?) | 15:56 |
| charlie-tca | yes, but if xubuntu had it's own domain, it would be a separate moinmoin instance, and that alone speeds it up | 15:56 |
| knome | charlie-tca, why would we get an own instance? even the kubuntu wiki isn't onw. | 15:56 |
| knome | *one | 15:56 |
| charlie-tca | I think a lot of the slowdown is because of the size of the wiki | 15:56 |
| cody-somerville | Actually, it is a separate 'instance' but it uses the same database. To have a different default theme requires it. | 15:57 |
| charlie-tca | kubuntu uses wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu ? | 15:57 |
| mr_pouit | urgh | 15:57 |
| knome | charlie-tca, no, wiki.kubuntu.org. | 15:58 |
| charlie-tca | you have help.ubuntu.com, wiki.ubuntu.com, uds.ubuntu.com, etc. They are separate and not all as slow | 15:58 |
| knome | charlie-tca, which links to the ubuntu wiki mainpage, but with the kubuntu theme | 15:58 |
| knome | yes, but help. and uds. are different altogether | 15:58 |
| knome | they are not even using the same database | 15:59 |
| charlie-tca | no, help is part of wiki.ubuntu.com and was split off it about 4 years ago. | 15:59 |
| knome | yes, but *now* it is a completely different thing than wiki.ubuntu.com. | 15:59 |
| knome | wiki.kubuntu.org has the same data as wiki.ubuntu.com, thus sharing something with it | 16:00 |
| charlie-tca | um, kubuntu wiki is much faster than wiki.ubuntu.com | 16:00 |
| knome | help.ubuntu.com is completely torn apart | 16:00 |
| micahg | also, currently wiki.xubuntu.org redirects to www.xubuntu.org whereas wiki.kubuntu.org points to the wiki | 16:00 |
| charlie-tca | if it is using the same database, it matters to have a separate domain | 16:00 |
| knome | charlie-tca, that's because what cody described - it is a different *instance*, since a different theme needs that | 16:00 |
| charlie-tca | micahg: that is fixable. We also have xubuntu.com or .net already | 16:01 |
| charlie-tca | and why can't Xubuntu have that? | 16:01 |
| knome | charlie-tca, probably could. | 16:01 |
| knome | charlie-tca, the problem might be that kubuntu had their theme before the "new" theme | 16:01 |
| charlie-tca | which would result in the increase in speed and keep us in the ubuntu spaces | 16:01 |
| knome | charlie-tca, so they could keep it | 16:01 |
| charlie-tca | We can ask, right? | 16:01 |
| knome | charlie-tca, now that there is the new theme, i don't know how eas it is to get an own teme | 16:01 |
| knome | feel free to file an rt ticket... | 16:02 |
| knome | dinner, be back after that and open for more discussion | 16:06 |
| knome | yay, the wiki is down | 16:24 |
| knome | anyway, now that it seems to have been recovered, the marketing plans are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Marketing | 16:25 |
| knome | (let's see if you can all get those open before the meeting today) | 16:25 |
| charlie-tca | heh, yeah, I know. I been fighting the wiki too | 16:26 |
| charlie-tca | knome: I don't use the standard Ubuntu wiki theme, I use "right-side", which makes the links a different color than orange. | 16:37 |
| charlie-tca | That's why they are so dark for me on that header | 16:37 |
| charlie-tca | I gave up on the standard theme a long time back, since I couldn't see a lot of what was on the page with it. | 16:38 |
| knome | charlie-tca, right. | 16:38 |
| charlie-tca | Unfortunately, any changes we make have to work with more than just the standard theme, then? | 16:38 |
| knome | apparently. | 16:39 |
| charlie-tca | Unless we can get our own theme in there, and lock it? | 16:39 |
| knome | we can't lock anything. | 16:39 |
| === surreal7z_ is now known as surreal7z | ||
| charlie-tca | I see. Until I log into the wiki.kubuntu.org as a separate login, I get their theme, but after I login, I get mine again | 16:41 |
| charlie-tca | So, the best we can do is our own theme, to be used until login? | 16:47 |
| charlie-tca | and all it takes to get our own theme is to use a sub-domain of xubuntu.org? | 16:48 |
| charlie-tca | and it is faster than what we got now... | 16:48 |
| knome | talked with matthew nuzum (newz2000), who said that's probably not going to happen. | 16:56 |
| knome | he also said that there is discussion (and in theory work) about migrating moinmoin to a newer version, that is supposed to speed up things. | 16:57 |
| knome | he hasn't answered to my question about an estimate when this would happen, if it happens. | 16:57 |
| ochosi | charlie-tca: i just sent you the article via email | 16:59 |
| knome | so our options are: 1) stick with the slow ubuntu wiki 2) stick with the slow ubuntu wiki 3) do something dramatic. | 16:59 |
| ochosi | g2g now, have fun everyone! | 17:00 |
| charlie-tca | not dramatic, just try to get our own theme into the wiki, so it won't be so slow | 17:01 |
| charlie-tca | ooops | 17:01 |
| charlie-tca | should have read all of it | 17:01 |
| knome | yeah. there is not much hope, even if the IS has changed. | 17:02 |
| charlie-tca | matthew is the same person told me the wiki theme was set in stone and would not be changed. However, a new theme just came out a few days ago | 17:02 |
| knome | a new theme? | 17:02 |
| charlie-tca | am I mixing up my wikis again. Maybe that was www.ubuntu.com | 17:03 |
| knome | that's only some improvements over the old theme, maybe? | 17:03 |
| charlie-tca | where they had many different color links, and whined about it | 17:03 |
| knome | right | 17:03 |
| charlie-tca | Now the links are all one color, and the banner is much nicer | 17:03 |
| knome | right | 17:04 |
| charlie-tca | but it still the same person that said it would not happen | 17:04 |
| knome | well, i've had many discussions with him in the past years | 17:04 |
| charlie-tca | I guess I prefer not to hear him now ;-) | 17:04 |
| charlie-tca | Is he the one that makes the decision on the theme? | 17:05 |
| knome | the reason why he told our own theme might not be possible at all is that he is not satisfied at all with the way the kubuntu wiki theme is set up | 17:05 |
| charlie-tca | That's because he doesn't control it | 17:05 |
| knome | or, they in IS | 17:05 |
| knome | no, that's because it brings technically problems when both the instances use the same database | 17:06 |
| knome | and i full agree with that. it's in no way a good solution. | 17:06 |
| charlie-tca | crap | 17:06 |
| knome | it's merely a hack. | 17:06 |
| charlie-tca | all right, back to the thinking caps then. | 17:06 |
| charlie-tca | who do we push to find out what options are available to us? | 17:06 |
| charlie-tca | I know cody-somerville said no way to dokuwiki, but is there an alternative to explore that we might be able to use? | 17:07 |
| charlie-tca | and, yes, I think he is in the position to know if that would be turned down, too. | 17:07 |
| knome | i suppose cody said no way to dokuwiki because generally, the IS probably do not want to split the wiki any way. | 17:08 |
| cody-somerville | that and its written in PHP | 17:08 |
| charlie-tca | yup | 17:08 |
| knome | cody-somerville, wordpress is in php, and we're getting php. that's not really a solid argument. | 17:08 |
| charlie-tca | That will do it, all right. We can't get php approved | 17:08 |
| knome | can't get php approved?? | 17:09 |
| knome | in which langugage is wordpress written in? | 17:09 |
| cody-somerville | Its an exception. | 17:09 |
| charlie-tca | Not unless it is specifically done for Ubuntu/Canonical | 17:09 |
| charlie-tca | I remember hearing that way way back, when there was a very small discussion about trying to move away from moinmoin | 17:10 |
| knome | cody-somerville, if there is one exception, there can be other exceptions as well. i appreciate your insight, but as long as you are not in the decision-making position in the IS, please do not say "you can't", se we really can't be sure. that leads to a thinking that we can't ever even propose anything. | 17:10 |
| knome | s/se/as/ | 17:11 |
| knome | charlie-tca, i remember that discussion as well | 17:12 |
| cody-somerville | knome, I interact with IS on a daily basis as a part of my job. I'm very familiar with their policies. Although it is true that someone else besides me would ultimately make the decision, I'm trying to help you avoid wasting your time. | 17:12 |
| knome | charlie-tca, you might want to join #ubuntu-website, we're discussing the matter there right now | 17:12 |
| knome | cody-somerville, i understand. but please try to understand that i also know how hard it is to get any change in the ubuntu community - though, i do also know it is possible. | 17:13 |
| knome | cody-somerville, if you don't try to push towards better things, you'll never get them. really. | 17:13 |
| cody-somerville | I appreciate your optimism. | 17:14 |
| knome | cody-somerville, if i use 5 or 15 minutes of my time writing an rt ticket, i don't care even if you think it's wasted. | 17:14 |
| charlie-tca | me and the Website team do not see anything the same. They only tell me what can not be done. | 17:17 |
| knome | AlanBell has on rt ticket open on updating the wiki (if i understood correctly) | 17:17 |
| charlie-tca | and it has been open since before Natty uds | 17:17 |
| knome | charlie-tca, so does cody-somerville tell us... ;) | 17:17 |
| charlie-tca | and the website team has done everything possible to stop AlanBell being able to get an accessible theme into the wiki, rather than try to help get it done. | 17:19 |
| knome | do you think the website team says no to you just because they think it is a funny thing to do? | 17:19 |
| * cody-somerville hasn't considered that before. | 17:19 | |
| charlie-tca | No, I will reserve my opinion at this point | 17:19 |
| charlie-tca | I will go get stuff together for the meeting now, before I say anything I will regret | 17:20 |
| cody-somerville | lol | 17:20 |
| knome | i don't know the details on the accessibility theme issue, and to be honest, that's a completely other fight. getting the wiki work so that it's usable would be profit the whole community, even the website team | 17:20 |
| knome | again, i can attend the meeting for the first hour. | 17:24 |
| knome | charlie-tca, if you need to say something you regret later, feel free to do that in /query knome | 17:24 |
| knome | :P | 17:24 |
| knome | there is always a chuck of truth in those statements. | 17:25 |
| knome | *chunk | 17:25 |
| charlie-tca | along the lines of "if you can't say something nice...", I just let it go | 17:27 |
| knome | ah, the jono bacon motto for lige | 17:29 |
| knome | *life | 17:29 |
| knome | that's good in many situations, but sometimes it just hurts you and others to stay silent. | 17:30 |
| pleia2 | knome: I didn't read the whole backscroll, but the main ubuntu wiki is getting some major upgrades in the coming weeks so the slowness and errors should be going away soon | 17:32 |
| knome | pleia2, is that for sure? | 17:33 |
| pleia2 | knome: yes, IS is already doing trials for the canonical wiki | 17:33 |
| knome | okay, glad to hear that. | 17:33 |
| pleia2 | once they've worked out the kinks they're going to move on to the main one | 17:33 |
| knome | i hope it really clears the issues, since we've had those for ages and again ages :( | 17:34 |
| charlie-tca | soft freeze for alpha 3 next week on Monday 2300 UTC | 17:43 |
| pleia2 | knome: yeah, it's gotten fairly unusable since new years, apparently when 500 errors outweigh fully successful edits is when they start paying attention ;) | 17:49 |
| knome | mm-hmm | 17:50 |
| pleia2 | so they'll upgrade the software itself which has better support for larger wikis and will allow them to optimize searching | 17:50 |
| knome | yeah, i gathered that from my discussion with newz2000 | 17:50 |
| charlie-tca | uh, this seems bad... I have not done any updates today, restarted after updating yesterday. I now have 71 updates to install, and an icon that says restart required to complete updates | 18:07 |
| charlie-tca | Reminder - Xubuntu Community Meeting in #ubuntu-meeting in 10 minutes; everyone invited; agenda is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings | 18:51 |
| charlie-tca | knome: meeting? | 19:04 |
| knome | charlie-tca, sorry, we have guests :/ | 19:46 |
| charlie-tca | no problem | 19:46 |
| charlie-tca | Thanks for trying anyway | 19:46 |
| mr_pouit | g2g now, thanks charlie-tca for chairing ;-) | 20:13 |
| charlie-tca | Thank you | 20:13 |
| charlie-tca | It will take me a while to get the minutes together, but it was a good meeting | 20:14 |
| micahg | \o/ | 20:14 |
| micahg | charlie-tca: I need to talk to persia about an arm installer though, idk if the normal ISO procedure will work | 20:15 |
| charlie-tca | hm, okay | 20:15 |
| charlie-tca | I really have my mis-givings about another image. But, if you are willing to test it, I can approve it. | 20:16 |
| micahg | well, I personally think it'll run better than Ubuntu on ARM since you have less RAM to work with | 20:16 |
| charlie-tca | Yeah, I think that is true | 20:18 |
| charlie-tca | let persia know I will approve it if needed. | 20:19 |
| cody-somerville | I think Persia wants me to test an imx51 kernel or something | 20:20 |
| charlie-tca | Will you test the images if we build them, too? | 20:22 |
| ochosi | anyone around? | 23:36 |
| ochosi | brb | 23:40 |
| charlie-tca | nope, we all left for the day ;-) | 23:41 |
| charlie-tca | oh, maybe that isn't too far off, either. | 23:43 |
| charlie-tca | Long time accessibility in Xfce for stickey keys finally got fixed | 23:44 |
| charlie-tca | s/accessibility/ accessibility bug | 23:44 |
| charlie-tca | hm, I use irc names in the meeting minutes, should I be using real names? | 23:53 |
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