[11:38] <coz_> hey guys
[17:34] <thorwil> 8-|  http://www.ubuntu-gallery.com/
[17:53] <zniavre> that s really good website
[18:14] <coz_> hey guys
[18:19] <darkmatter> mornin' coz_ :) and ewww :P http://i.imgur.com/cUe7G.png
[18:19] <coz_> darkmatter,  hey guy
[18:19] <coz_> darkmatter,  yeah I dont like that one myself
[18:20] <darkmatter> coz_: first 'complete' theme I could find. I'll be doing my own (and pretty instead of fugly). just trying to get used to pekwm again xD
[18:20] <coz_> :) oh ok
[18:23] <darkmatter> coz_: like. one of my 'inspirations' (ignore the theme, just the general "nature" of it caught my eye years back) I was talking about. took me forever to find it on google...
[18:23] <darkmatter> coz_:  http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs51/f/2009/278/e/1/_Concept__ecoo_by_SwaySo.jpg
[18:24] <coz_> nice colors
[18:24] <darkmatter> regarding "art _in_ design"
[18:26] <darkmatter> coz_: I have a lot of references like that on my hdd. thats what I've been talking about for years and years (along with my general usability rants :P). why don't we do more artistic/imaginative themeing. we have all the stuff we need ;)
[18:27] <darkmatter> create ui's that stand out instead of "I wish I was a mac or android" crap ;D
[18:28] <coz_> darkmatter,  yeah but .. depends on the distribution... and for example ubuntu... there's no real chance of influencing graphics there... other distributions maybe,,, forgive me for sounding a bit  down about all this ..but  ubuntu has completely drained my interest in helping with themes
[18:28] <coz_> darkmatter,  I have always liked and understood your visions so I am always glad someone is working on these things
[18:29] <darkmatter> coz_: which is why I want/have wanted to start my own project. just finding devs is a pita because I don't have $$ to bribe them with. lol
[18:29] <coz_> darkmatter,  this is true... :)
[18:31] <coz_> darkmatter,  I dont think money would be the problem though,,, if it has a good vision behind it,, with a long term goal ... the project would attract them
[18:33] <coz_> darkmatter,  afterall danrabbit started with icons :)
[18:33] <darkmatter> true
[18:35] <coz_> darkmatter,  there are few people out there creating projects with just themes they have created
[18:35] <coz_> darkmatter,  no many but its done
[18:36] <darkmatter> coz_: but thing I wan't to see (beyond basic artistry). loading animation in browser/other apps (not 'progress bar" but like. a ring (non macish) % inside of it "loading <whatever>" below. background darkened but still translucent)
[18:36] <coz_> darkmatter,  yeah that might take a bit of coding for sure
[18:37] <darkmatter> coz_ and for windows. regarding attention. red glow for shadows for crashed apps/ maybe less pronounced red for hung/unresponsive, maybe matching text color in window.
[18:38] <coz_> darkmatter,  maybe some "mockups" would attract attention ?
[18:38] <darkmatter> coz_ and for "flashing/requires interaction" same basic formula, but amber, pulses to yellowish
[18:40] <darkmatter> so if you have a convo unfocused. get a message. window pulses like the traffic/construction/turn signal/<insert endless real world things that use the metaphor for "YO!">
[18:40] <coz_> :)
[18:41] <darkmatter> and opening windows shouldn't just clunkily zoom/fade/ they should grow/blossom (kinda like time lapse of a flower)
[18:41] <darkmatter> coz_:  I think you get the idea
[18:41] <coz_> darkmatter,  well those things definitly some devs behind it
[18:41] <coz_> darkmatter,  refine the idea,,, make mock ups and get it out there to be seen
[18:42] <darkmatter> coz_: yeah. even though they're the "bling", they're still part of the design language. can't be overlooked
[18:43] <coz_> darkmatter,  for sure
[18:43] <coz_> darkmatter,  its too bad distros like ubuntu have essentially ignored the talent available right here
[18:43] <darkmatter> coz_: I mean. we see design language in the arts. in the automotive industry and in architecture, etc. but _not_ in software
[18:44] <coz_> darkmatter,  its beginning to change... it needs more designers to push it further for sure
[18:44] <darkmatter> like. we should have a rewal "design language. not just pattens
[18:44] <darkmatter> coz_ aye. I'll need to do mockups
[18:44] <coz_> darkmatter,  "language" as in code?
[18:46] <darkmatter> coz_: no, not as in code. but. for example, look at conceptual autos, or _cutting edge_ arcitecture. there is a natural flow from one element to the next. external and internal (though it would apply to the "code" as well)
[18:47] <darkmatter> everything feels almost "organic", even more "techy looking" examples
[18:47] <coz_> darkmatter,  well design language really hasnt changed in a few hundred years.. its the artists hand that  interprets that language into something new
[18:47] <darkmatter> more "grown" than "engineered"
[18:48] <coz_> darkmatter,  I understand what you mean :)
[18:48] <darkmatter> coz_: true. I should have said "modern examples of.." :P
[18:49] <darkmatter> coz_: I've seen some fairly futuristic examples of organic, even within sharply geometric, shiny crap :P
[18:51] <darkmatter> yet we have no "organic" software (regarding design and interaction, et al)
[18:51] <coz_> darkmatter,  not coding that much,,, I am not sure how "organic" fits into coding but  from people I have spoken with ,,, the concept is out there for sure
[18:52] <darkmatter> I mean, some are moving in the right direction. it's just a lot slower than it should be. take the frakin' leap already :D
[18:52] <coz_> :)
[18:53] <darkmatter> coz_: like I said, not the code so much, though it could/can apply to code. just the "finished product"
[18:53] <coz_> darkmatter,  definitly the final product ,, but then again we have devs that really dont understand the necessity for artists  involvement in the production of software
[18:54] <coz_> but you already knew that :)
[18:55] <coz_> darkmatter,  when  developer says to me "  coz...we will get to the fun stuff later"  <, meaning graphics... I want to punch someone :)
[18:55] <darkmatter> lol. yes. and I do both ( not a quintessential master of either :P), so I believe in mending bridges by burning them :P (haha. half kidding)
[18:55] <coz_> darkmatter,  I understand
[18:56] <coz_> darkmatter,  I talked with a few developers at carnegie mellon ,, from the robotics lab there,  about this very topic
[18:56] <darkmatter> it's all "one thing" not two seperate entities trying to work together. i wish more would come to that realization
[18:56] <coz_> darkmatter,  the interesting outcome was that the majority of them believed that no developer should be without equal input from an artist when developeing GUI applications
[18:57] <darkmatter> coz_: indeed. robotics is a fine example of how the engineering/design are joined at the hip
[18:57] <coz_> darkmatter,   yes and they need to think both technically and visually
[18:57] <darkmatter> kindred spirits ftw
[18:58] <coz_> darkmatter,  but in open source  the problem is essentially the "old linux" attitude about coding
[18:58] <coz_> darkmatter,  it no longer , especially since the advent of compiz and a few other applicatoins... a matter of if the software works extremely well
[18:59] <coz_> darkmatter,  it also has to work from a visual sense,, easily understood,, visual clues.. nice interface ,,, easy to work with
[18:59] <coz_> rather it is not  a matter of if the software works
[18:59] <coz_> alone
[18:59] <darkmatter> coz_: the only _old_ attitude I have is that *nix should be *nix. traditionally the *nix environment has been the window manager, so I use that as a base and have started reimagining it for a "new age"
[18:59] <coz_> understood
[19:01] <darkmatter> *nix has always been about power/flexibility, so bring that power to bear in a less "ugh" manner. you already know what I mean, because I've done irc channel essays on the subject for almost a decade xD
[19:01] <coz_> :)
[19:01] <coz_> yes I completely understand
[19:01] <coz_> darkmatter,  its happening slowly
[19:03] <coz_> my first request is find the owner of this channel ... get ownership... change that damn misleading name PLEASE
[19:05] <darkmatter> coz_: for "textual" metaphores I believe in things like "Home" "explore" "connect" "play" "memories" "goodbye" instead of things like "iGoogle/home folder/whatever", "web browser" "chat" "games" "pictures" "exit/logout/<blah blah>"
[19:05] <coz_> darkmatter,  ah that makes it even clearer
[19:05] <coz_> darkmatter,  yes  a system should cater to humans and their daily activities
[19:06] <darkmatter> coz_: emotive, powerful, simple. to the craptastic point :P
[19:06] <darkmatter> humanize the bloody thing
[19:07] <coz_> for sure  which is the " initial concep of Ubuntu"
[19:07] <coz_> condept
[19:07] <coz_> damn fingers
[19:07] <coz_> concept
[19:07] <darkmatter> coz_: I still wonder what happened to that.lol
[19:07] <coz_> darkmatter,  well it is easy to use... but that is not the whole idea of  "for human beings"
[19:08] <vish> hmm..
[19:08] <coz_> darkmatter,  many people do agree with you /us  on this concept
[19:09] <coz_> damn fingers
[19:09] <darkmatter> coz_: aye. "for human beings" implies natural/organic. which means visual/textual, it means UX, it means _everything_ the user is exposed to should be natural (including at a psychological level)
[19:11] <vish> thorwil: was this ever brought up as a "community" guidance?
[19:11] <coz_> darkmatter,  absolutely ,,, the underlying code should not be  Obvious  to the user... no need for it to be,  but the interaction on all gui systems is in fact the graphics...they are was presents the applications / system to an individual
[19:11] <vish> http://www.ubuntu-gallery.com/?page_id=183
[19:11] <darkmatter> I've yet to see it. it's still a "kludgy hack" imo. sure, things have improved "somewhat" but the overall "vision" of various projects are still broken
[19:11] <vish> who is "Ubuntu community" referring to here?
[19:11] <coz_> not us
[19:12] <vish> gosh.. /me getting tired of this already..!
[19:12] <coz_> I have never seen this page
[19:12] <coz_> vish,  it has always been my understanding,,and somtimes forced upon me...that the "ubuntu community" are the developers
[19:13] <vish> coz_: right, but who are all the people who have requested that ?
[19:13] <vish> is there anyone more than 1 person?
[19:13] <thorwil> vish: parts of it sound familiar, but it's yet another typical john move. except if something happened on the mailing list
[19:14] <darkmatter> vish: so, judging by that list, if I did my lovely spiritual (non-religious/ purely enlightened) surrealism, it would get tossed in the "don't use pile" :P
[19:14] <vish> idiot!
[19:14] <vish> and really, meh..
[19:14] <vish> high time, i just quit to i guess.. :/
[19:14] <coz_> who created that page?  let me dig here
[19:14] <thorwil> yes! do it, enjoy the freedom
[19:14] <vish> coz_: guess who..
[19:15] <coz_> vish,  no way!!!
[19:15] <vish> coz_: check the about ;)
[19:15] <coz_> vish,  oh man
[19:15] <darkmatter> coz_: so more gradients/blurs/bubbles and mediocre photography in the pipes ;p
[19:15] <thorwil> coz_: i know of that page only because he blogged about it and is syndicated on planet ubuntu
[19:15] <vish> thorwil: really, who cares if everyone submits to the wrong place.. and then not one illustration gets selected for the final  :/
[19:16] <coz_>  well maybe we have been looking at this in the wrong light,,, he is taking control
[19:16] <vish> why bother..
[19:16] <thorwil> which is a good reminder that john is an ubuntu member ...
[19:17] <vish> even after iain replied he pursues this trivial foolishness/stupidity..
[19:17] <vish> not sure what to think of him..
[19:17] <vish> he has still not answered to anyone as to why that group exists..
[19:17] <darkmatter> lol. members. narcissistic control freaks (not universally, but I've seen enough of it) who "get away" with crap
[19:18] <coz_> playing devil's advocate here,,, well he is taking initiative where others have not
[19:18] <vish> coz_: right, initiative is good.. but why to his group?
[19:18] <coz_> damn damn fingers
[19:18] <vish> coz_: right, initiative is good.. but why to his group?
[19:18] <coz_> vish,  well that part I am not sure of
[19:18] <coz_> vish,  but still it works  ...yes?
[19:19] <thorwil> coz_: no, because there is no sync with the design team
[19:19] <coz_> I have to get new hands
[19:19] <vish> coz_: how would you call it working? when it wont even be seen by the judges?..
[19:19] <coz_> thorwil,  I understand that
[19:19] <vish> coz_:  why does he not want to work with the design team?
[19:19] <darkmatter> coz_: because... ummm... the members are right and everyone else is wrong? silly you ;)
[19:19] <coz_> vish,  I dont know I have gotten not even a slight interest from him to respond to that very question
[19:20] <coz_> darkmatter,  :)
[19:20] <vish> IMO, it seems he wants to prove *he* is capable or something..
[19:20] <coz_> vish,  capable of.... leadership?
[19:20] <vish> i dont know what..
[19:21] <thorwil> he claimed to have emailed Iain or Ivanka on some occasions. if he really did, i suspect the stated lack of replies reflects their willingness to deal with him
[19:21] <coz_> vish,  I dont see another  motivation there
[19:21] <vish> thorwil: i asked iain, iain did not know of his groups _at all_
[19:21] <vish> thorwil: i had to ask iain to read the ML and reply..
[19:21] <coz_> mmm
[19:22] <vish> too much nonsense chatter in the ML because of this. :/
[19:22] <vish> coz_: but, whatever his motivation is, thats not really in the benefit of the Ubuntu artwork
[19:22] <vish> its sheer, stupidity!
[19:22] <coz_> vish,  I think I understand what you mean
[19:23] <coz_> vish,  although that site you linked before simply states  "The purpose of this site is to show case illustrations submitted to Ubuntu and the greater community as wallpapers targeted to the 11.04 release referred to as Natty."
[19:23] <vish> which is wrong!
[19:23] <coz_> not that they are going to be used or even seen by the actual design team  ,,, it doesnt imply t hat
[19:23] <vish> right.. ;)
[19:23] <thorwil> vish: too few on the list are willing to treat him like the psycho he most likely is. but it's not the first case and place where i see reluctance to be "hard" on a person in the free software realm
[19:23] <coz_> it only implies that these will be the images  that were submitted
[19:24] <darkmatter> vish: meh, the ubuntu community has never been very communal anyway...
[19:24] <vish> coz_: which is like getting insurance.. ;p
[19:24] <vish> darkmatter: hehe!
[19:24] <vish> coz_: you have to read the fine print to really understand ;p
[19:24] <coz_> vish,  I suppose it could be interpreted that way ,,, I dont see it that way  but  I could be wrong
[19:25] <coz_> ok reading
[19:25] <thorwil> darkmatter: die and go to hell, we are full of love!!
[19:25] <vish> coz_: just imagine a passer-by
[19:25] <coz_> vish,  well in some regards,,, doesn the name of this channel mislead also?
[19:26] <darkmatter> vish: experience talking. remember. I used to be an irc op and form staff (before and after the forums went official), so I've seen "both sides of the coin" ;)
[19:26] <vish> coz_: if he is not representing anyone more than himself, he should not use  "ubuntu community"
[19:26] <vish> coz_: this channel?  it just got too old/outdated to be useful anymore ;)
[19:26] <coz_> vish,  well the name itself is as misleading as john is
[19:26] <thorwil> coz_: the channel name is close to being a relic of the past
[19:27] <vish> coz_: no, this channel did work as a community for Ubuntu artwork
[19:27] <coz_> it still attracts people with the assumption they may have an opporutnity to contribute directly to ubuntu
[19:27] <vish> coz_: but not now..
[19:27] <coz_> vish,  I realize this
[19:27] <vish> coz_: so I supose we should shut down this team :)
[19:27] <vish> suppose*
[19:27]  * vish +1 for it ;)
[19:27] <coz_> vish,  no  change the channel name for sure
[19:27] <thorwil> it should be #coz-and-darmatter-or thorwil-and-vish-and-not-much-else
[19:28] <coz_> just dont call it  #art-is-fun
[19:28] <coz_> I would fly off the handle at that :)
[19:28] <vish> #art-sucks?
[19:28] <darkmatter> #people-who-give-a-damn xD
[19:28] <vish> #people-who-DONT-give-a-damn
[19:28] <coz_> vish,  well looking at some of the submission john attracted ...yes lol
[19:28] <thorwil> #ubuntu-design-not-our-fault
[19:28] <coz_> there you go lol
[19:29] <vish> coz_: i dont deny he is spending time.. anyone can start contacting 100 members and mislead and get submissions..
[19:29] <coz_> and he did
[19:29] <darkmatter> #ubuntus-LACK-of-design-is-not-our-fault-go-spam-shuttleworth
[19:29] <darkmatter> hehe
[19:29] <vish> coz_: yup.. but what is the point?
[19:29] <coz_> he put in the time...the effort and got the submissions   its just too bad they wont be seen
[19:30] <vish> coz_: he is wasting the artists time :/
[19:30] <coz_> well some probably shouldnt be seen but that's no the issue here :)
[19:30] <thorwil> heh, but one ayatana list per sabdfl is enough
[19:30] <coz_> thorwil,  that one went over my hear
[19:30] <coz_> head
[19:31] <vish> coz_: he was replying to darkmatter's channel name suggestion.. ;)
[19:31] <darkmatter> that one tickled my funnyplace
[19:31] <coz_> vish,  indeed he is waisting  artist's time
[19:31] <thorwil> coz_: refered to darkmatter's "-...go-spam-shuttleworth"
[19:31] <coz_> oh  ok :)
[19:32] <vish> when did he say this? <thorwil> he claimed to have emailed Iain or Ivanka on some occasions.
[19:32] <vish> on the ML?
[19:32]  * darkmatter squishes a pizza pop in vishs direction
[19:32] <thorwil> vish: not sure. likely private mail
[19:33] <coz_> I was going to say a very long thing here but decided it would be offensive to those listening in
[19:34] <thorwil> aww
[19:34] <coz_> creating images is not hard for me... I have enough training
[19:34] <vish> hmm, pizza :D
[19:34] <coz_> but the desire to do so ...diminishes  with incidents like john... shuttleworth and even qujte frankly the design team
[19:35] <coz_> the members of this group have all the ability necessary to take ubuntu to great visual interest
[19:35] <coz_> but ‎it is ingored,,,, maybe that's what john's motivation is ???
[19:36] <thorwil> sure, he's a secret agent, instructed by steve balmer
[19:36] <coz_> I am sure that this  incident has drained my interest in helping with ubuntu other than doing support at times
[19:36] <thorwil> and only in it to keep coz_ from blowing as all away with aweseom artwork
[19:37] <coz_> thorwil,  I wish it were awsome work,,, i would be getting more sales lol
[19:37] <coz_> but with combined skills the members in this group have it all
[19:37] <vish> coz_: think this way, is this a distro or a platform that people want to showcase their talent?
[19:37] <vish> that is the purpose of art for Ubuntu?
[19:38] <thorwil> coz_: what i mean is, yes, this bs is rather demotivating. but the talk about not doing anything because of this external reasons is not convincing at all
[19:38] <coz_> vish,  a distribution that people with skills want to improve
[19:38] <darkmatter> coz_: hmm... brief change of subject for a quick sec. what would you say to (for more esoteric crap like running a filer, terminal, etc), having the windows "blossom" from the center (mouse cursor), you know. for "screw you fitts, I'm not throwing my mouse halfway across the screen"? :P
[19:38] <vish> coz_: thats right, "a distribution" is the main word..
[19:38] <vish> coz_: if people want to improve ,
[19:38] <coz_> darkmatter,  mm  not sure I would like that but I am probably not thinking clearly
[19:38] <vish>  they have to work with others
[19:39] <coz_> vish,  that I absolutely agree with which is why john is being pointed  out  ,,,in essence.. by his own hand
[19:39] <thorwil> vish: strategically, ubuntu is shifting from distribution to platform
[19:40] <darkmatter> coz_: basically could be for a lot of things (but dependent on window size/mode/origin/ some thing you would want more "static". and then there's the issue of transients...
[19:40] <vish> thorwil: right distro/platform same, but eitherway, not a platform _for_ artists's talents
[19:40] <coz_> darkmatter,  I think I understand :)
[19:40] <vish> its not school.. ;)
[19:40] <coz_> vish,  i agree
[19:41] <coz_> vish,  but I also believe that ONLY artists make the final decisions to a large extent as to the visual content...
[19:41] <coz_> as a group w ho's interests are geared to improve the distribution
[19:41] <vish> coz_: then that needs to be discussed and fixed in mark's head..
[19:42] <vish> not by forming parallel groups..
[19:42] <coz_> vish,  which will never occur
[19:42] <vish> ;)
[19:42] <thorwil> vish: not same, as one emphasizes assembling the work of others and being a distribution of *somthing* (gnu/linux), while platform puts more weight on customization and having an own, closed identity
[19:42] <vish> thorwil: right, semantics.. what i meant was, what is the objective .. ;)
[19:42] <darkmatter> coz_: I'll hgave to play around for several hours with it later. my main reason for running pekwm is as a window management testbed. it's _insanely_ configurable/scriptable (even the menus). helps when hashing out the "language". I've used _every_ wm/DE under the sun over the years. never seen such flexibility. it's like a ide for window management. lol
[19:43] <coz_> darkmatter,  for sure ,, and mockups would be great :)
[19:43] <vish> thorwil: i do understand that they mean different literally, but here in the argument as the "object" they are the same :)
[19:44] <thorwil> pah pekwm, use xmonad
[19:44] <vish> lol!
[19:44] <darkmatter> coz_: and (even though not a mockup), once I get the lines and lines of settings written, a screencap of how windows _should_ behave
[19:44] <coz_> darkmatter,  ooo that's even better :)
[19:44] <vish> even if john is trying to shield people from criticism on the list as he once said, that is stupidity too.. look at the reaction the first wallpaper for maverick got.. ;p
[19:45] <vish> that was just pure name calling
[19:45] <coz_> vish,    for sure
[19:45] <coz_> vish,  I dont want to see an "image lottery"  take place ... that would be disastrous but in some ways this "contest" was just that
[19:46] <vish> yea, but unfortunately, thats all Ubuntu is gonna get ;)
[19:46] <darkmatter> like. when opening a video from a filer (for example). the window for totem/whatever should spawn in relation to the parent, not just "top left, bottom right, I'm trying to be smart but am actually the village idiot :/" standards
[19:46] <coz_> vish,  well that's all they are going to allow us  ...yes?
[19:46] <vish> yup..
[19:46] <coz_> vish,  so  what harm is john doing then?
[19:47] <vish> coz_: sure, he can run an alternate ubuntu-look site ;)
[19:47] <coz_> it doesnt matter to me anymore  about this john guy  anyway
[19:48] <vish> yea.. i'v given up as well..
[19:48] <vish> if there are no submissions design team will just say … we dint get submissions//
[19:48] <darkmatter> coz_: I know I talk about this in an _art_ channel, and if troy_s was here, he'd probably be "that's not even remotely relevant"... but yeah
[19:48] <coz_> darkmatter,  which is not relevant?
[19:49] <thorwil> vish: so will you write a goodbye to the list and propose closing the team in your parting words?
[19:49] <darkmatter> it is relevant, because part of "art" when it comes to puter goes beyongd grahics, since its all intermingled in the end
[19:49] <coz_> I am not ready for a goodbye on my part  ...yet... I still have some hope
[19:50] <vish> thorwil: closing the team might be part of my goodbye ;)
[19:50] <coz_> darkmatter,  yes I suppose so
[19:50] <coz_> if john wants to mislead people  then he will eventually have to deal with their wrath
[19:50] <vish> right..
[19:50] <darkmatter> coz_: lol. discussing more technical aspects "isn't relavent". been told that before, but really, it is :P
[19:50] <coz_> it has nothing to do with any of us here
[19:51] <thorwil> coz_: hanging around on that list is wasteful. you should either try to influence matters actively, or leave
[19:51] <coz_> darkmatter,  :)
[19:51] <vish> coz_: dont worry, we'd still have this channel ;)
[19:51] <coz_> thorwil,  I have tried  a bit
[19:51] <vish> coz_: this channel is not a core IRC channel even ;p
[19:51] <coz_> vish,  oo  joy
[19:51] <coz_> :)
[19:52] <vish> it'd just be an old relic where old farts come to hang out, and think of their battles ;p
[19:52] <coz_> :)
[19:52] <vish> yea, no offense to darkmatter who is the only young guy here ;p
[19:53] <darkmatter> coz_: jack of all trades here, (master of non. lol), so I kinda have a different perspective than the "whats this behavioural crap?" "pure" artist. my "pure" art is reserved for clay, charcoal, pain, pastel. I must be more "reasonably minded" whe it comes to software ;)
[19:54] <darkmatter> coz_: and as you might say "damned fingwers" lol
[19:54] <coz_> darkmatter,  I do understand that
[19:55] <coz_> thorwil,   I have tried in the past to give imput and suggestions.. I have seen ubuntu go from ,, at the beginning.. a fairly liberal appraoch to th ings  then into a very conservative approach... all  conjouired by the developers.. and ops...  I have watched people come and go disappointed that they are no in on the  decision making ... some disappointed they were not reconginzed as "great art" talents.. though none of us ar
[19:55] <coz_> e  of course
[19:56] <vish> artists are narcissistic
[19:56] <vish> ;)
[19:56] <vish> it's not for their recognition.. ;p
[19:57] <coz_> vish, mmm
[19:57] <thorwil> is anyone calling himself an artist automatically one?
[19:57] <darkmatter> vish: not all of us. some are just perfectionists (I OCD a _LOT_ xD)
[19:57] <vish> thorwil: yup
[19:57] <coz_> vish,  I dont know.. as an artist ,, I find my pieces that sell are qujite personal... I dont feel narcissistic about it but  almost like a parent losing a kid
[19:57] <thorwil> in all the time is saw ... Saleel showed he can draw. Rico Sta Cruz was a real designer. who else ... ?
[19:58] <vish> err, is saw thorwil say it as *great* artist..
[19:58] <coz_> drawing is a technical skill unrealted to art
[19:58] <vish> there are so many sites that literally tare down designs, and people have complained about thorwil's critique, which IMO was not too harsh..
[19:58] <thorwil> vish: doesn't parse
[19:59] <coz_> vish,  I have never know  troy to be harsh in his critisisms
[19:59] <vish> in this.. "<thorwil> is anyone calling himself an artist automatically one?  " i missread a great somewhere..
[19:59] <thorwil> ah
[20:00] <darkmatter> coz_: same. even when I do something "less artistic" I feel trepidation/anxiety at parting with it. like I designed a massive tatoo for a guy once (like I said "less" artistic, more "whatever"), when it came time to collect my $100 for it (took me about 40 minutes in total, musing then composing), I almost didn't want to part with it and was kinda sad when it went bye bye
[20:01] <darkmatter> but on thr plus side, I gained a walking billboard \o/
[20:01] <coz_> darkmatter,  as it should be... it should be personal otherwise it is not really art
[20:01] <darkmatter> very "non traditional" tattoo
[20:01] <coz_> :)
[20:01] <darkmatter> as in more like an actual painting
[20:02] <coz_> thorwil,  what type of work do you do?
[20:02] <thorwil> gnargh. the term "art" should be split up into lots of terms for all the more common definitions in use
[20:02]  * vish goes to watch Fringe.. and Walternate!
[20:03] <thorwil> coz_: mainly logo design. but i studied industrial design and have a penchant for interaction ...
[20:03] <coz_> vish,  oo fringe :)
[20:03] <coz_> thorwil,  very cool
[20:04] <darkmatter> "chain" piece covers most of his arm. when people ask "who did that?" he tells them who did it and who designed it. been good for business in general in the past. (and not just "I want a tattoo" types. portraits and stuff as well) :)
[20:05] <darkmatter> I prefer my painting and sculpting. moar fun
[20:05] <coz_> darkmatter,  that I completely understand
[20:05] <darkmatter> though I kinda quit sculpting. to freaking expensive maintaining both
[20:05] <darkmatter> lol
[20:06] <coz_> darkmatter,  painting is very expensive also... I dont use any thing right now other than graphite or conte crayon... oils are far too expensive especially if you choose the archival pigments
[20:06] <coz_> 1oz  cobalt violet is near $100
[20:07] <coz_> and it tiniting strength is weak
[20:08] <coz_> manganese blue is becoming harder to aquire... but I cant paint without it ...rather wont :)
[20:08] <darkmatter> coz_: yeah. I used to do oils, switched to acrylic (more affordable). even bought a few cell paints (strong tinting)
[20:09] <coz_> darkmatter,   I never could get used to acrylics... watercolour yes ...
[20:10] <darkmatter> but I use a lot of pastels now. still painting _technically_, but more hybrid painting/drawing. if you know what you're doing (and have an appropriate grade of pastel) you can even replicate brush strokes \o/
[20:11] <coz_> my palette usually consists of the earth pigments of course,,, cobal blue  manganese blue,, cobalt yellow,,cobalt violet light and dark,,, sometimes alizarin crimson... sometimes cadmium red of some sort  and lead white
[20:11] <darkmatter> it's just faster since you use more common techniques
[20:11] <coz_> darkmatter,  pastels are difficult medium for me so congratulations :)  I mean that
[20:11] <darkmatter> coz_: eath and solar palette myself
[20:12] <darkmatter> particularily the solar. maroons, deep rust browns, ambers, etc. <3
[20:12] <coz_> darkmatter,  how permanent are they ?
[20:13] <darkmatter> coz_: very. at least the oil pastels. but like paint, they take a while to cure. so for the first bit they can smudge
[20:14] <coz_> darkmatter,   as long as the pigment themselves are archival...unless you dont care if some day they will hang in a museum :)
[20:14] <darkmatter> how long it takes for the pastel to cure depends (like anything else you have different grades)
[20:14] <coz_> darkmatter,  even Degas used bad pastels for some of his work and have to be shown with low light so they dont fade  .. what a doof
[20:15] <darkmatter> coz_: I've 20 year old pieces I've done for people that are still as bright as the day I did them. so it seems archival :P
[20:15] <coz_> darkmatter,  yes could be... althouugh archival generally means 500+ years
[20:16] <coz_> darkmatter,  but that how I was trained... we had to study th e paint chemistry... light tests for each pigment..not really a waiste of time but certainly boring as hell
[20:16] <darkmatter> coz_: yeah. I know. it depends on what they use for pigments. most the ones I use are artificial pugments. so I "assume" they'll last
[20:16] <darkmatter> natural pigments probably not so much
[20:16] <coz_> darkmatter,  not all but many have proven to be archival as far as we know
[20:17] <coz_> darkmatter,  earth pigments are definilty archival
[20:17] <coz_> cobalt , any of the earth pigments
[20:17] <darkmatter> coz_: yup. I know. I've made my own pastel in the past (and a few paints). the chemistry is here too :P
[20:18] <coz_> darkmatter,  i believe you
[20:18] <darkmatter> I even used to make my own paper on occasion. ugh
[20:18] <coz_> darkmatter,  it is far more complex than people realize
[20:18] <coz_> darkmatter,  eeww me too I hate making paper :)
[20:18] <darkmatter> that paper stuff takes for-freaking-ever
[20:18] <coz_> darkmatter,  i will buy an all cotton watercolour paper
[20:18] <coz_> darkmatter,  forget about making the damn thing :)
[20:19] <coz_> I love etching but copper plates are expensive as well
[20:19] <darkmatter> coz_: I like linen-based vellums. bloody expensive though
[20:19] <coz_> darkmatter, for sure
[20:19] <coz_> darkmatter,  as is linen canvas
[20:20] <coz_> but oh my the difference :)
[20:20] <darkmatter> yes
[20:21] <coz_> well I am going for a break here,,, I need to eat something... pet the cat... see if family is ok... maybe get a subway ...:)   be back in a bit