=== daker_ is now known as daker [19:56] hello all :D [19:56] evening [19:58] hey [19:58] Hello Godbyk [19:58] how are you faring ChrisWoollard, godbyk ? [19:59] I am fairing well. [19:59] I'm doing pretty well. [19:59] i'm glad to hear that :) [20:00] "hear" ... [20:04] Isn't it meeting day? [20:04] yes [20:05] What's the plan? Start, Wait? [20:05] I was hoping that someone other than the three of us would show up, too. :) [20:05] o/ [20:05] o/ [20:05] Hi everyone. Sorry I'm late. [20:05] Hands up if you are here for the meetung [20:06] * patrickdickey hands up [20:06] s/meetung/meeting [20:06] \o/ [20:06] Cool. Good enough for me! [20:06] #startmeeting [20:06] Meeting started at 14:06. The chair is godbyk. [20:06] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [20:06] here we go agenda: http://typewith.me/ToAmust0XX [20:07] [TOPIC] Improving the Ubuntu Manual website [20:07] New Topic: Improving the Ubuntu Manual website [20:07] c7p: Do you want to discuss this topic? [20:08] yes i think on this part we should discuss about the website [20:08] I should phrase that a bit differently: c7p, would you like to lead the discussion on this topic? :) [20:08] and propose ideas for the improvement of it, technical i think we are ok but regarding the content im not so sure [20:09] We do have a test site up at http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/ that humphreybc and daker worked on before humphreybc left. [20:09] have you looked at.... Yes that [20:09] ah ok i give some ideas first you follow :P [20:09] I've checked out the test site. [20:10] first the getting invlolved pages should be updated. me and patrickdickey have done the author, editor part [20:11] the designer, and programmet section should be updated also, we have to be more specific regarding what we need from volunteers i think [20:12] what do you think on that ? if you agree we may add this to todo list for site [20:13] I think that it's probably a good idea to list some of the general types of tasks that each role takes on (to give an idea of what skills are required), and also to list some specific things that need to be done. [20:14] It should be easy for someone to stumble across our project, decide they'd like to help, and find a niche to fill. [20:14] Who has responsibility for the website now? [20:14] daker is the maintainer and developer right ? [20:14] ChrisWoollard: I don't think anyone's ever really had responsibility for the website. I think daker's been designing it and managing the updates as people make suggestions. [20:15] The new site is impressive. While I think the content needs work, I think the design is solid [20:15] Should we make the test site live? [20:15] so is there anyone here who wants to try writing something more on these website pages ? [20:16] I had mentioned in an email to c7p (IIRC) about maybe creating three sub-tabs on the "Authors page". One for each method of gettting started (command line, script, or Ground Control). Would that be a possibility? [20:16] yes it's possible [20:18] is installing Tex Live integral to becoming a writer or editor? I can honestly say that I've never installed it, yet work on dozens of edits and additions to the manual [20:19] semioticrobotic: It's required to build the PDF. As long as you don't break the build, I'll never know. :-) [20:19] Usually eithe godbyk or maybe check all edits to make sure [20:19] s/maybe/me [20:19] godbyk: Right, but I rarely, if ever, build the pdf myself. :) I just push, pull, make edits to the text files, and let the designers do their thing [20:20] any other ideas regarding site ? [20:21] not from me [20:21] i don't see much interest on this topic, should we go on ? [20:22] Okay. We can always revisit it in a later meeting, too. [20:22] I would say "yes" to making the test site live. We can always update it as we get things done. [20:22] [TOPIC] Ideas for improving the manual [20:22] New Topic: Ideas for improving the manual [20:22] what ideas are on the table? [20:23] as i say on pad Addition of one or two page with Linux alternative applications [20:23] ah! yes. I was wondering where these pages would fit in the manual's current structure [20:23] appendix? [20:24] no big deal [20:24] yes they can be placed on appendix, [20:24] Depending on how big of a section, either an appendix or maybe a final chapter? [20:24] as a getting started book i think we should provide the reader this information [20:25] If we're just covering the top few applications/questions when transitioning from Windows or Mac OS X to Ubuntu, then we can probably include it. [20:25] I agree [20:25] If it gets out of hand, though, it's probably better to create a separate PDF. [20:26] godbyk: or maybe we can add the list in a page on website and simply add the link to the manual [20:27] To keep the pages contained, we'll probably want to generate a strict list of commonly used applications, then solicit suggestions for one or two alternatives [20:28] semioticrobotic: good idea [20:28] So someone would need to research the top n applications that people use in Windows and Mac OS X and then suggest sensible replacements under Ubuntu. [20:28] cool [20:28] +1 semioticrobotic [20:28] Now the big question: Is anyone here willing to take on that responsibility? [20:29] i can do it [20:29] no big deal there are thousands good lists out there :P [20:29] c7p: feel free to post your preliminary work to a pad so we can help you (if yo'd like) [20:29] It should be clear and consise [20:30] semioticrobotic: sure i will post it to the list [20:30] ChrisWoollard: yes [20:30] [ACTION] c7p will research the most frequently used applications in Windows and Mac OS X and will suggest suitable replacements under Ubuntu. [20:30] ACTION received: c7p will research the most frequently used applications in Windows and Mac OS X and will suggest suitable replacements under Ubuntu. [20:30] c7p: Now it's official! :) [20:30] Just to clear: we're not writing new copy/content to describe the Ubuntu equivalents, right? Just generating a table of alternative? [20:30] *alternatives [20:30] It should be more than a mere table, I think. [20:30] ah, okay [20:31] There should probably be a brief description of the alternative and how it differs from the original application. [20:31] And pointers to more information should be provided. [20:31] godbyk: Gotcha [20:31] Then "Learning More" might be a decent place for the list [20:31] godbyk: you're in my mind or maybe i'm in yours haha [20:32] Is there anything else for this topic or should we move on? [20:32] yes [20:32] [TOPIC] Feedback on project leader and editor in chief roles [20:32] New Topic: Feedback on project leader and editor in chief roles [20:32] http://typewith.me/GY2L5yJCUF [20:32] LINK received: http://typewith.me/GY2L5yJCUF [20:33] ChrisWoollard: Would you like to lead the discussion on this topic? [20:33] Okay then. [20:33] The about link lists the descriptions for each role. [20:34] I have editted them. Is there anything missing? [20:34] Or do you think we are happy with them? [20:34] just reading them now ... seem well-rounded enough to me [20:35] Are we ready to advertise? Where should we advertise? Does anybody have suggestions for who may be appropriate? [20:35] Does annybody want one of the roles? [20:35] the list is ok i think [20:36] I'd contact a few podcasts, actually ... maybe the Ubuntu UK podcast or Full Circle podcast [20:36] hello [20:36] :D [20:36] ask them to perhaps announce the call for participants as a news item [20:36] Hello popey [20:36] we're recording the first uupc of season 4 on tuesday [20:36] I figured that would rouse popey [20:36] :) [20:36] please let us know any announcements before then via email to podcast@ubuntu-uk.org :D [20:36] Okay. [20:37] Thanks, popey! [20:37] before that we have to be sure that there is work to be done and have it on todo list at least [20:37] We'll also need to establish a process in case we have more than one person volunteer for a role. [20:37] +1 [20:37] Really. I think we need those posts whatever [20:39] So, what actions do we have before tuesday? [20:39] We need a contact point for applicants. [20:40] task/todo list: http://typewith.me/6vGZcVmzIx [20:40] A process for interviewing and deciding who gets each role. [20:40] do we have a general email address for the project? [20:40] who monitors that? [20:40] All that typical hiring process stuff. [20:40] godbyk: can we make a form for this ? [20:40] yes, all that fun stuff [20:40] if not, I don't mind being a contact point [20:41] c7p: We could create a form, yeah. But we'll need more than that. [20:41] Full CV and a test? [20:41] ChrisWoollard: We could have a single contact point or have them email the list or have them email the editors list or create a new email address , for example. [20:42] Who controls mail accounts? [20:42] so in other words, we've got options! [20:42] I can create email accounts. [20:42] ChrisWoollard: If you can't, I'll make it so you can. :-) [20:43] ;) [20:43] I don't think a full CV is required, but I'm certainly interested in all the relevant experience they have. [20:43] yes ... requiring a full CV might discourage some folks [20:44] Interview notes http://typewith.me/pTIqM5oVnP [20:46] When interested folks inquire, where do we send them? Will the descriptions be posted anywhere? [20:47] The descriptions should be posted to the mailing list. [20:47] I think we can broadcast the descriptions, but it would be nice to have a web page to point them at. The web page would contain the descriptions of the roles and tell them how to apply. [20:47] Maybe I could wiki fi the descriptions [20:48] right...if the announcement will be broadcast, it should contain a link for more inforamtion. I can't imagine a news item that contains everything we have on that pad :) [20:49] So if we point them at a wiki page that contains everything. Unless somebody can add something to ubuntu-manual.org? [20:49] We can add stuff to ubuntu-manual.org, too. [20:50] i prefer website [20:50] website is good ... keeps everythign central [20:50] That is dependant on who can edit it. [20:50] *everything [20:50] I think there's a UM website admins group or something like that. [20:51] The website is in bzr. [20:51] how do updates get published? [20:51] yikes ... gotta run, friends. sorry I can't stay longer. If anyone needs help writing or editing a radio spot (I have experience with this), feel free to email me to collaborate. [20:51] ChrisWoollard: I run a bzr pull. (It used to pull periodically on its own, but I may or may not have that disabled at the moment. I'll have to check.) [20:52] semioticrobotic ok see you :) [20:52] semioticrobotic: Okay. Thanks for helping out today. [20:52] Okay, that is a start. [20:52] I'll catch the rest of the meeting in the minutes. Take care. \o [20:53] I can write the descriptions / Interview requirements up if somebody can webify it and put it on the website? [20:54] ChrisWoollard: Sure. I can do that. [20:54] Lovely, After the meeting I will prepare it and send it to you [20:55] ChrisWoollard: If you want me to create an @ubuntu-manual.org email address, I can. We can set up that address to forward to one or more other addresses, as well. [20:55] [ACTION] ChrisWoollard will mark up the job descriptions and application process [20:55] ACTION received: ChrisWoollard will mark up the job descriptions and application process [20:55] jobs@ubuntu-manual.org would be good [20:55] [ACTION] godbyk will post it to the ubuntu-manual.org site. [20:55] ACTION received: godbyk will post it to the ubuntu-manual.org site. [20:56] [ACTION] godbyk will create a jobs@ubuntu-manual.org email address to receive job applications [20:56] ACTION received: godbyk will create a jobs@ubuntu-manual.org email address to receive job applications [20:56] After it is on the site I will post details to popey [20:57] Okay. [20:57] thanks [20:57] [ACTION] ChrisWoollard will send the application details to popey [20:57] ACTION received: ChrisWoollard will send the application details to popey [20:58] what else ? [20:58] Okay. Is there anything else we need to discuss on this topic? [20:58] I don't think so. [20:58] so do I [20:58] [TOPIC] Quickshot feedback [20:58] New Topic: Quickshot feedback [20:59] I spoke with jenkins on IRC earlier this week for a few minutes. [20:59] Both he and flan have been really busy with work lately and haven't had any time for Quickshot. [20:59] jenkins said that they would welcome help from other developers etc. [21:00] Should we write a description for a quickshot developer? [21:00] We'll need to create a list of the required screenshots for the Maverick edition so that the Quickshot server can be updated. [21:00] ChrisWoollard: i think we should [21:01] I asked jenkins if he or flan could come up with a to do list that we could hand any new developers, but I haven't heard anything back on that yet. [21:01] check this http://forum.ubuntu-gr.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=13165&p=131608& [21:01] I'm not familiar enough with the status of Quickshot to know what's needed at the moment. [21:01] Quickshot itself is written in Python. [21:02] jenkins sent it to me or to ML (i don't rember) when i requested more information for quickshot programmers [21:04] does it help or not ? [21:04] A bit. It gives a nice overview of what they've worked on for the current version of Quickshot. [21:05] The biggest issue I see is that I don't know what we'd tell any new QS developers if they showed up. [21:05] I don't know what needs to be done. [21:06] so we should ask more details from them so we can ensure that if any volunteers show up will be able to help [21:07] Yes. Unfortunately, I've done that and haven't gotten a response yet. [21:07] before that i don't think that the programmer for quickshot should be added to list for volunteers [21:07] Even a brain dump would be more helpful than nothing [21:08] Agreed. On both counts. [21:08] agreed [21:08] ChrisWoollard: sure but if we disappoint people with enthusiasm we harm project longterm [21:09] At this point, I guess the only action item then is to continue to harass the Quickshot developers? [21:09] i guess so [21:09] [ACTION] Continue to harass the Quickshot developers for a to do list and a list of skills required to continue development [21:10] ACTION received: Continue to harass the Quickshot developers for a to do list and a list of skills required to continue development [21:10] [TOPIC] Supporting the ePub format [21:10] New Topic: Supporting the ePub format [21:10] We've had a few requests for the manual in ePub format. [21:10] It was a question from the mailing list [21:11] Converting from LaTeX to anything other than PDF isn't terribly easy. [21:11] If we want to support more formats (ePub, HTML, etc.), then I would recommend using docbook or some other source format. [21:11] Godbyk, I e-mailed Dinda asking where I could find the docbook stuff they were working on so i could have a look [21:11] I have not had a response yet. [21:12] Then converting that format to the various output formats (HTML, ePub, LaTeX -> PDF, etc.). [21:12] ChrisWoollard: I haven't heard anything from anyone, either. [21:12] ChrisWoollard: The toolchain she used for the earlier Ubuntu book used Apache FOP instead of LaTeX to generate PDFs. [21:12] I will continue to ask. [21:12] 'kay. [21:13] When I see her in irc on monday [21:13] Does anyone have any thoughts or opinions on supporting other (non-PDF) output formats (such as HTML, ePub, etc.)? [21:13] Personally I would prefer to have docbook + latex [21:13] Or any thoughts on switching the source format to Docbook (or anything else)? [21:13] I think it a good idea in an age of Kindles etc [21:14] The idea appeals to me as well. [21:14] It is a lot of work [21:14] godbyk i have a tool in mind if you are interested, i haven't tested though [21:14] Please share? [21:14] * c7p just a moment to find the link [21:14] I *think* that using docbook may simplify the translation process a bit, too, as it removes the po4a requirement. [21:14] http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/installing.html [21:15] LINK received: http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/installing.html [21:15] I've seen pandoc, but haven't used it much yet, either. [21:15] sorry check the about page [21:15] http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/ [21:15] LINK received: http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/ [21:16] I don't think it'd take to long to actually convert our LaTeX source to Docbook (once we've established a style guide on which tags to use). [21:17] Is this something we'd be interested in doing for the Natty edition? [21:17] cool [21:18] godbyk: if you have time to handle it i think we should support it for Natty [21:18] Okay. I'll look into it a bit more then. [21:18] [ACTION] godbyk to look into using Docbook as the source format [21:18] ACTION received: godbyk to look into using Docbook as the source format [21:18] [TOPIC] Translations [21:18] New Topic: Translations [21:18] c7p: Your turn to lead the discussion again. [21:19] translations is a pain ... [21:19] there is so much confusion among translators and also disappointment [21:20] all thiese happens because the content that is currently under development is available for translation [21:21] I thought that we used to only open up the frozen strings for translation. Is that not true? [21:21] for those who don't know if an editor or author remove a letter or add something to a paragraph the whole translation of it is lost [21:22] frozen strings are the lucid e1 and e2 ? [21:22] Yes. I think only e1 and e2 are frozen. [21:22] both should be frozen [21:23] yes but look https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/maverick/+translations here you can see that the maverick is available for translation [21:24] That's odd. We don't even have a .pot file in the maverick branch. [21:24] I thought you deliveratly didn't do that [21:25] i don't know what happening :P but we should remove the option for translating maverick [21:25] Yeah, that's odd. We'll have to look into that. [21:25] and under development editions also [21:25] thanks [21:26] The translation import settings look different, too. We didn't used to allow automatic importing of the translations because it caused problems. [21:27] It'd be nice if we had a translations manager role, too. To help deal with all the little translation problems that crop up. [21:27] (That is, someone who knows a lot more about the translation process than me!) [21:27] :/ that's strange [21:28] But I think we'll have to save that discussion for our next meeting. [21:28] :P i can take this role but until Summer i don't have much free time [21:28] I need to head out in a few minutes. Do we have anything else on the agenda? [21:28] Promotion Group? [21:28] although there should be a post to ML for the role to see other candidates [21:28] Shall we defer that? [21:28] Ah, yes. [21:28] [TOPIC] Promotion group [21:29] New Topic: Promotion group [21:29] ah promotion group [21:29] we need some people to work on promotion group [21:29] this group would have to make the project known [21:29] through social media etc. [21:29] In the past, I think that humpreybc handled most of the promotion (Facebook, Twitter, OMG, blogging, etc.). [21:30] Do you mean "promoting the group" i.e. The manual Project? [21:30] I think that promoting the project is something that everyone can help with. [21:30] ChrisWoollard: yes sorry i wasn't clear on that [21:30] However, we do probably need two or three people to help keep the Facebook page, Twittter feed, etc. up to date. [21:31] +1 [21:31] we have a twitter feed? [21:31] that's should be the group's purpose [21:31] ChrisWoollard: We do! [21:31] ChrisWoollard: http://twitter.com/#!/TheUbuntuManual [21:32] Amusingly, the last thing posted to the Twitter feed was notice of Ben's abdication. [21:32] Oh yes, Apparently I am already a follower [21:32] lol [21:32] godbyk: do you know the passwords for these accounts ? [21:32] Who was the account details? [21:33] I think I have them in an email someplace. [21:33] I am too show again. [21:33] slow [21:34] so we need people for managing our projects social network feeds [21:35] I'm not seeing the passwords in my email right off, but I'm sure he sent them. I'll poke around some more later. If I can't find them, I'll email Ben. [21:36] It sounds like we have a lot of roles to fill here and that there's a lot of work to be done. [21:36] yes [21:36] I don't mind having a go at that. [21:36] I'd recommend that we focus on finding an editor in chief and a project leader (though I don't like the name of that position as much) during the next few weeks. [21:36] It can't be that hard to post more than we do at the moment [21:37] Then we can start filling in some of these other roles as we ramp up work on releasing the maverick edition and start on the natty edition. [21:37] Okay, fair enough [21:37] ChrisWoollard: I'll forward you the account info when I find it. [21:37] Just in case I get hit by a bus or something. [21:38] I hope not. [21:38] [ACTION] Any other business [21:38] ACTION received: Any other business [21:38] Is there any other business that we need to attend to in this meeting? [21:38] There are no erathquakes in your part of the world are there? [21:38] Just this [21:38] Info Only - The style guide is now here https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-of-style so can be used with other projects (e.g. The Ubuntu Developer Manual). [21:38] I would suggest that we try to establish another meeting about two weeks from now to see how the hiring process is going and to touch base on some of these other issues. [21:38] etc [21:39] No earthquakes here. Just tornadoes. But they won't be around for another few months. :) [21:39] Two weeks is good. [21:39] Ah, good. [21:39] We'll need to update the style guide as we move forward, too. [21:40] If you want I can do the next meeting organising [21:40] I have to say something regarding "improvement of manual" [21:40] Sounds like a plan. [21:40] c7p: Go ahead. [21:40] we were having a discussion for making the book smaller ages ago :P [21:41] and it was on todo list for maverick but nevermind we are planing for natty [21:41] That was to get us on the relases cd [21:42] I don't think we are anywhere near that at the moment [21:42] you are right [21:42] I would defer that until we have our house in order [21:42] and proved we can deliver [21:42] As far as getting on the CD, I think that generating a docbook (or mallard) version would be a better option there because it'll integrate into the regular help system. [21:43] And yes, I think that we should demonstrate we can generate releases regularly and on time before we worry about the CDs. [21:43] (We're typically not releasing until after the ISOs are generated anyway.) [21:44] Any other final thoughts? [21:44] hm [21:44] can we have a program for downloading UM on ubuntu official repos ? [21:45] We probably need to get it packaged [21:45] c7p: We'll have to explore that again. I know others have looked in the past, but there were some issues. (I don't recall the details now.) [21:45] ok [21:46] Before anybody vanished can ve have a look at the minutes and make any appropriate changes [21:46] http://typewith.me/ToAmust0XX [21:46] LINK received: http://typewith.me/ToAmust0XX [21:46] ChrisWoollard: I can take a look at it in about an hour. I have to run off to another meeting now. [21:46] np [21:46] What I've seen so far looks good, though. [21:47] it's ok [21:47] I hereby declare this meeting of the Ubuntu Manual Project adjourned! [21:47] #endmeeting [21:47] Meeting finished at 15:47. [21:47] list of all projects pads: http://typewith.me/OzNMJ6gyKk [21:48] Can we specify the pad URL names when we create new pads (like we did with the UK pads)? Makes it a little easier to track. [21:48] yes [21:48] opps [21:48] no [21:48] We could just use pad.ubuntu-uk.org [21:49] I'm not that picky, really. [21:49] i can't specify them :/ idk where you are given the option [21:50] wiith pad.ubuntu-uk.org you can just type your own name after the / [21:51] we forgot **ACTION meeting in two weeks , i add it to pad [21:51] e.g http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/MyTestpad [21:51] ChrisWoollard: your right -_- how stupid am i .... [21:51] ok, thanks [21:51] * ChrisWoollard pretends not to have noticed anything. [21:56] nice to talking with you guys, i g2g [21:56] i will create a poll for next meeting and i will send you the link [21:57] cya have a nice day === dutchie_ is now known as dutchie