| andylockran | Guys - who's the ubuntu laptop reseller in the UK ? | 00:11 |
|---|---|---|
| andylockran | and 2) Can I get ubuntu on a macbook pro? | 00:14 |
| mgdm | popey has Ubuntu on a MacBook, might not be a Pro | 00:15 |
| andylockran | ok, I'll ping him in the morning. | 00:16 |
| shauno | there's a whole chunk of good reading too, at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MacBookPro | 00:17 |
| andylockran | thanks | 00:18 |
| shauno | (8,1 is the current model, and mostly undocumented thanks to being a week old. it gets wildly more successful as you go back a model or two tho) | 00:20 |
| andylockran | looks a little complicated. Are there many OSS programs that don't compile on the OSX (me is thinking, eclipse, vim, subclipse, perl, python, android developer tools) | 00:22 |
| mgdm | andylockran: I use all of those almost every week, if not day | 00:29 |
| shauno | I've struggled with larger packages (trying to build evolution was a week of misery). but most of those aren't a problem | 00:29 |
| andylockran | Yeah, that's more or less my toolkit | 00:30 |
| andylockran | thunderbird for email | 00:30 |
| andylockran | but if eclipse compiles, i'm guessing I shouldn't have problems with eclipse extensions? | 00:30 |
| andylockran | ah, and Open/LibreOfice | 00:31 |
| andylockran | yeah, that looks schweet then | 00:32 |
| andylockran | right - so tomorrow I walk into the office and suggest they buy me a macbook pro | 00:32 |
| andylockran | negiotiation will last 30 minutes before I get told no I'm guessing. | 00:32 |
| andylockran | but hey ho.. worth a go :0 | 00:32 |
| shauno | subclipse I've never heard of. the rest of those are good to go tho. eclipse & LO have osx builds available, python/perl/vim/etc are installed out of the box | 00:33 |
| andylockran | well here hoping it goes well tomorrow | 00:35 |
| andylockran | and now I shall sleep.. night all! | 00:35 |
| dsas | heh http://www.ndftz.com/nickelanddime.png | 00:54 |
| ali1234 | lolz | 00:59 |
| shauno | like the fineprint | 00:59 |
| ali1234 | what does "subjective transparency" mean? | 01:00 |
| ali1234 | also, what if banshee devs put up a ppa restoring the referal link? what then? | 01:01 |
| shauno | war, I guess. | 01:01 |
| ali1234 | i mean, then i could pick and choose | 01:01 |
| ali1234 | not that i buy mp3s, or anything from amazon ever again | 01:01 |
| hamitron | again? ;/ | 01:03 |
| ali1234 | yeah i cancelled my amazon account at the same time i cancelled my paypal account | 01:07 |
| dsas | ali1234, then I guess you could install that and use that instead. | 01:16 |
| HazRPG | hi | 04:34 |
| HazRPG | have I missed much today? | 04:34 |
| NateWiebe | gord: just curious in terms of the unity dash, is scrolling with the scroll wheel considered a bug or a wishlist item? (bug #721447) | 05:34 |
| lubotu3` | Launchpad bug 721447 in unity (Ubuntu) "Unable to scroll in Applications/Files and Folders Place using mouse wheel" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/721447 | 05:34 |
| ball | What's the usual mobile broadband standard in the UK these days? UMTS? LTE? | 06:54 |
| MartijnVdS | UMTS + HSPA | 06:56 |
| MartijnVdS | (HSDPA/HSUPA) | 06:56 |
| * ball goes to look up HSPA | 06:56 | |
| MartijnVdS | with fallback to GPRS/EDGE (same as everywhere in Europe really ;)) | 06:56 |
| MartijnVdS | ball: HSPA is an extension to the UMTS protocol that allows for more speed | 06:56 |
| * ball ponders | 06:57 | |
| ball | Does UMTS cost more than EDGE, or is it just a case of 'pay for data and you get what you can'? | 06:58 |
| MartijnVdS | I'm not in the UK, but here in the Netherlands all "data plans" are for a given number of megabytes, regardless of tech used | 06:59 |
| MartijnVdS | and you get EDGE if you go outside of UMTS coverage | 06:59 |
| MartijnVdS | (or GPRS if you're not on Voda) | 07:00 |
| ball | MartijnVdS: No "unlimited" data plans? | 07:00 |
| MartijnVdS | ball: they call them unlimited, but they never really are | 07:00 |
| ball | MartijnVdS: soft or hard cap? Do they cut you off or just throttle you back? | 07:01 |
| MartijnVdS | where I work, we throttle people back, and only cut them off if they're repeat "offenders" | 07:02 |
| MartijnVdS | you know.. I think most operators do that for "unlimited" plans | 07:03 |
| ball | MartijnVdS: Is that based purely on how much data they're throwing around, or is the decision influenced by the /type/ of data? | 07:03 |
| MartijnVdS | which is why they aren't offering too many of those anymore (get our 500MB plan, so we can charge you for every MB more) | 07:03 |
| MartijnVdS | where I work it's amount | 07:04 |
| MartijnVdS | other operators -> not transparent | 07:04 |
| * ball nods | 07:04 | |
| MartijnVdS | supposedly only the amount, but they have weird rules like "you can't connect your laptop" or "no VOIP" | 07:04 |
| ball | Data is one of the few things that makes me interested in sticking with the operator I have now. | 07:04 |
| MartijnVdS | I have an old-style "unlimited for €7,50/month" plan that I like :) | 07:06 |
| ball | ...that and the fact I can use a WiFi LAN as though it were a tower. | 07:06 |
| MartijnVdS | how do you do that then? | 07:06 |
| ball | MartijnVdS: Only works with certain handsets (primarily Nokia) but you tell the phone about a wireless LAN (SSID, encryption and password) and the phone magically detects and uses it whenever you're within range. | 07:08 |
| MartijnVdS | ah SIP | 07:09 |
| MartijnVdS | I can use that.. but it uses a different number | 07:09 |
| MartijnVdS | which is annoying :) | 07:09 |
| ball | It uses SIP? | 07:09 |
| MartijnVdS | well.. that's the only "wifi calling" option my phones have offered | 07:09 |
| ball | MartijnVdS: This works with my existing number and is seamless. | 07:10 |
| ball | MartijnVdS: incomming calls come through the WiFi too. | 07:10 |
| ball | SMS and "mobile Web" | 07:10 |
| mindlore | Does anyone know about Western Digital Caviar Green hard drives disappearing from the file system under linux? | 07:10 |
| MartijnVdS | and this works on any LAN? | 07:10 |
| MartijnVdS | mindlore: drives disappearing usually means they're flaking out (check the kernel log in /var/log/kern.log) | 07:11 |
| ball | MartijnVdS: Yes. | 07:11 |
| ball | MartijnVdS: ...seems to. | 07:11 |
| MartijnVdS | ball: then it has to be SIP or some related protocol | 07:11 |
| MartijnVdS | and it means our (EU) operators suck :) | 07:11 |
| ball | What kind of UMTS/EDGE adaptor works with Ubuntu? | 07:11 |
| MartijnVdS | ball: Lots.. some might need more tweaking than others thoguh | 07:12 |
| MartijnVdS | though* | 07:12 |
| AlanBell | morning all | 07:12 |
| mindlore | MartijnVdS, I would do, but I reinstalled. Noted for next time. It passes a full SMART test though. | 07:12 |
| MartijnVdS | \o AlanBell | 07:12 |
| MartijnVdS | mindlore: SMART is only an indication, not 100% proof :) | 07:12 |
| MartijnVdS | ball: My laptop's built-in Gobi 2000 was fiddly to get to work, but now it's fine | 07:12 |
| ball | I'm considering mobile broadband if my cable company can't get its act together. | 07:13 |
| MartijnVdS | ball: most USB sticks work fine (though they might need a poke with usb_modeswitch to switch them from "driver installer fake-CD-ROM"-mode to "modem mode" | 07:13 |
| MartijnVdS | ball: (this is all automatic if you have the right packages installed, of course) | 07:14 |
| mindlore | MartijnVdS, Ok, thanks. The reason I ask about the WDC Green drives in particular was because I read something about them going into a low power sleep mode and not waking up in time, causing a the sata driver to assume the drive was no longer there. Any ideas about that? | 07:14 |
| ball | MartijnVdS: I may try it with some of the local mobile broadband adaptors if I can borrow some at work. | 07:14 |
| MartijnVdS | mindlore: no idea, don't have a drive like that so never had the problem | 07:15 |
| MartijnVdS | ball: network-manager will pop up asking to configure it, it's really neat :) | 07:15 |
| mindlore | MartijnVdS, Ok. Thank you. If it is the drive flaking out, what do I look for in the kernel log? | 07:15 |
| ball | I'll ask the mobile phone chaps whether I can borrow one during lunch break. | 07:16 |
| ball | If I can make it work with the laptop, I may be able to get by with the old desktop. | 07:17 |
| MartijnVdS | mindlore: messages about ATA/SATA :) it'll be obvious | 07:18 |
| MartijnVdS | ball: "Ye Olde Desktoppe" | 07:18 |
| mindlore | MartijnVdS, Ok, thanks. I hoped it would be. :) | 07:18 |
| ball | I think I need to sleep on it. | 07:19 |
| ball | Goodnight everyone. | 07:19 |
| MartijnVdS | \o ball | 07:19 |
| ball | MartijnVdS: Thanks for the information, it was very helpful. | 07:20 |
| mindlore | I'm looking in the kernel log now, and I've got some ATA bus errors. Is that normal/acceptable? | 07:20 |
| MartijnVdS | mindlore: not really | 07:20 |
| mindlore | All the errors are in relation to the WDC Green drive. Does it look like I need to return that drive? | 07:23 |
| mindlore | Actually, my DVD is getting them too. Unless I'm reading it wrong. | 07:24 |
| MartijnVdS | might be your controller flaking out then | 07:24 |
| MartijnVdS | or just a few loose cables | 07:25 |
| mindlore | Just to be clear: The controller on the mobo? | 07:25 |
| mindlore | Ah. Optimism. :) | 07:25 |
| MartijnVdS | mindlore: check the cables and PSU first -- the PSU might also providing a voltage that's too low | 07:26 |
| MartijnVdS | and yes, the controller is part of the mono | 07:26 |
| MartijnVdS | mobo | 07:26 |
| mindlore | What would I do if the voltage is too low? | 07:28 |
| MartijnVdS | get a new PSU | 07:28 |
| mindlore | Oh. :( | 07:28 |
| MartijnVdS | but it might be hard to figure out if this is the case (unless you're good with wires and a multimeter) | 07:28 |
| mindlore | It's been a while since I've used one of those. ;) | 07:29 |
| mindlore | My other HDD doesn't get any errors though. A good sign? | 07:30 |
| mindlore | For the controller, I mean? | 07:32 |
| MartijnVdS | could be | 07:32 |
| MartijnVdS | I'd start with checking the connections then :) | 07:32 |
| mindlore | Right, so: Check connections, check voltage, or failing those return mobo. Sound about right? | 07:34 |
| MartijnVdS | check if your current "root" disk fails on those ports as well | 07:36 |
| AlanBell | or a spare sacrificial disk | 07:37 |
| mindlore | By simply swapping the cables over? | 07:37 |
| MartijnVdS | or that | 07:37 |
| AlanBell | don't write to your currently working root disk on a suspected dodgy controller | 07:38 |
| mindlore | AlanBell, wise words. Ok, thanks. | 07:38 |
| mindlore | Right, you've been a big help. Thank you. I'll get to those things later today. Now though, I've got to go, the kids are up and demanding breakfast. ;) | 07:44 |
| initself | friends, romans, countryman | 08:13 |
| initself | (wait, i'm american!) | 08:13 |
| DJones | Morning all | 08:13 |
| Myrtti | s/man/men/ | 08:13 |
| initself | sweetbear: Flying, beaches, bridges. | 08:13 |
| initself | that's what they are into in the uk | 08:13 |
| Myrtti | hm. | 08:14 |
| jpds | initself: OK, you're American, we've done waiting, continue. | 08:14 |
| sweetbear | initself: they're already making fun of you... | 08:15 |
| initself | you too, sweetheart! | 08:15 |
| initself | these's brits think their so cheeky | 08:15 |
| AlanBell | morning all | 08:15 |
| initself | they're | 08:15 |
| initself | GOOD EVENING, AlanBell! | 08:15 |
| initself | The party is just getting started over here! | 08:15 |
| sweetbear | initself: you mean morning has just started | 08:16 |
| initself | PARTY BABY | 08:16 |
| jpds | CAPS LOCK. | 08:17 |
| initself | you can't celebrate without CAPS LOCK. | 08:17 |
| sweetbear | jpds: you're funny | 08:17 |
| jpds | sweetbear: Thank you. | 08:17 |
| Myrtti | ^____o | 08:20 |
| initself | so, dude, the uk is just hacking hardcore on ubuntu tonight, eh? | 08:21 |
| initself | todya | 08:21 |
| initself | whatever, time is so relative | 08:21 |
| Myrtti | I wonder, does linode supply each vps with their own ip | 08:21 |
| Myrtti | or is there some bundling going on | 08:21 |
| AlanBell | Myrtti: it is ok, sweetbear and initself are sat next to each other | 08:21 |
| initself | I believe yes is the answer to that. | 08:21 |
| AlanBell | put the EMP cannon down | 08:22 |
| Myrtti | AlanBell: I'll get me popcorn | 08:22 |
| * initself hopes that our baby does not wake. | 08:22 | |
| * AlanBell is off out to talk open source to a customer | 08:22 | |
| AlanBell | laters all | 08:22 |
| MartijnVdS | \o | 08:22 |
| sweetbear | initself: if the baby is up it's your turn to change her | 08:22 |
| jpds | Myrtti: The former. | 08:23 |
| hoover_ | mornin | 08:30 |
| Myrtti | http://www.good.is/post/office-parks-are-worse-than-suburban-sprawl/ | 08:45 |
| MooDoo | hello all | 08:50 |
| diplo | Morning | 08:50 |
| wintellect | Mornin all | 09:03 |
| kazade | morning | 09:06 |
| Mez | Winful speed test :D | 09:40 |
| Mez | http://www.speedtest.net/result/1180789498.png | 09:40 |
| screen-x | morning :) | 09:50 |
| daubers | o/ | 09:53 |
| screen-x | hi daubers :) | 09:54 |
| screen-x | Getting any less manic for you? | 09:55 |
| screen-x | this morning's reading... http://i.imgur.com/7fdzK.jpg | 09:57 |
| popey | morning all! | 10:02 |
| MooDoo | morning alan | 10:02 |
| screen-x | \o popey | 10:02 |
| screen-x | how was uupc live? | 10:02 |
| popey | screen-x: it was great fun to make | 10:03 |
| popey | no idea what it was like to listen to :D | 10:03 |
| JamesTait | Good morning, everyone. :) | 10:04 |
| screen-x | popey: glad it was fun :) | 10:04 |
| screen-x | popey: I'm looking forward to listening to it later... | 10:04 |
| screen-x | I wonder which will be released first, the ipad or S04E01.. | 10:04 |
| screen-x | morning JamesTait :) | 10:05 |
| * screen-x opens lunch, then puts it away again, its only 10:05 | 10:05 | |
| kazade | popey, it sounded really good, almost too good. I reckon it was pre-recorded and the liveness was all an elaborate scam ;) | 10:07 |
| bigcalm | Postie didn't deliver my graze box today :'( | 10:09 |
| Pendulum | bigcalm: :( | 10:10 |
| * bigcalm wants his nibbles | 10:10 | |
| bigcalm | Hi Pendulum :) | 10:10 |
| Pendulum | hi bigcalm | 10:10 |
| bigcalm | I forget that you live in a large country | 10:11 |
| Pendulum | ? | 10:11 |
| bigcalm | In the UK 1 maybe 2 lorries would be all it takes to deliver a package | 10:12 |
| Pendulum | heh | 10:12 |
| bigcalm | Well, it's on its way to CT now | 10:13 |
| Pendulum | actually, it apparently is at the other end of CT now. But that still means it probably won't be here until tomorrow (because it's going to get sorted at least once more) | 10:13 |
| bigcalm | Indeed | 10:13 |
| popey | kazade: haha! | 10:14 |
| bigcalm | Pendulum: I'm trying to work out what the shipping cost might be from there to here. I must be doing something wrong as UPS is saying over 100USD | 10:18 |
| hoover_ | hey biggie | 10:18 |
| bigcalm | Hi hoover_ | 10:18 |
| === hoover_ is now known as hoover | ||
| Pendulum | bigcalm: I'll probably express mail it so it'll be somewhere around $50 US (if I"m calculating correctly, I had to guess at box dimensions so it might be cheaper) | 10:21 |
| bigcalm | Ok, thanks :) | 10:21 |
| bigcalm | Do you need to wrap it in birthday wrapping paper to make it look like a gift? ;) | 10:22 |
| Pendulum | nope :) | 10:23 |
| mungojerry | morning..any docky users in here? | 10:23 |
| === commander`Faggot is now known as UUUUUk | ||
| bigcalm | o.O | 10:30 |
| mungojerry | ^_^ | 10:31 |
| popey | o_O | 10:34 |
| dwatkins | hi folks | 10:47 |
| hoover | hi | 10:48 |
| dwatkins | if anyone near Maidenhead is looking for a linux sysadmin position, feel free to message me, as a friend of mine is looking for someone with at least 2 years experience | 10:48 |
| MooDoo | o/ yay | 10:48 |
| Tommeh | Maidenhead ayy? BlueSquare? | 10:50 |
| Tommeh | Slash poundhost/rapidswitch | 10:50 |
| dwatkins | Thrust VPS, Tommeh. | 10:51 |
| dwatkins | They used to use bluesquare, though. | 10:52 |
| Tommeh | Ahh | 10:53 |
| Tommeh | dwatkins: do they co-lo elsewhere now? | 10:53 |
| dwatkins | Tommeh: I'm not sure, have asked the question. | 10:53 |
| dwatkins | Tommeh: totally separate company | 10:55 |
| Tommeh | I realise Bluesquare != Thrust VPS | 10:59 |
| Tommeh | Or do you mean they co-lo with a totally separate facility now? | 10:59 |
| Tommeh | Though on their website it does say they have access to five separate facilities.. | 11:00 |
| davmor2 | morning all | 11:01 |
| MooDoo | dwatkins: this one? - http://www.thrustvps.com/blog/ | 11:01 |
| HazRPG | morning | 11:01 |
| MooDoo | davmor2: HazRPG morning | 11:01 |
| dwatkins | yeah MooDoo | 11:02 |
| HazRPG | morning MooDoo dude :) | 11:02 |
| dwatkins | Tommeh: I don't know, I can ask. | 11:02 |
| davmor2 | morning MooDoo I thought you were on lates | 11:02 |
| MooDoo | davmor2: got out of it, swapped shifts, working the weekends for the next two weeks now | 11:03 |
| Tommeh | dwatkins: I wouldn't worry :) | 11:03 |
| Tommeh | I'm just nosey | 11:03 |
| MooDoo | Any one near Hereford? | 11:04 |
| davmor2 | MooDoo: and that's better how? | 11:04 |
| MooDoo | davmor2: finish at 5:30 as apposed to midnight | 11:05 |
| MooDoo | davmor2: it's easier on the wife :) | 11:05 |
| screen-x | MooDoo: depends what you mean by near, I'm about an hour away from Hereford. | 11:16 |
| MooDoo | screen-x: oh i was just thinking about an opensource event that's happening in march | 11:17 |
| screen-x | What sort of event? | 11:17 |
| screen-x | Some sort of rebel oggcamp offshoot? | 11:18 |
| MooDoo | http://www.herefordshire.lug.org.uk/node/63 | 11:19 |
| * screen-x reads | 11:19 | |
| screen-x | I'm in chichester that day, otherwise could have popped in.. | 11:20 |
| * bigcalm spies Drupal and runs away screaming | 11:20 | |
| screen-x | bigcalm: a definate case of defaultthemeitus | 11:21 |
| Myrtti | quick question | 11:21 |
| bigcalm | Shoot | 11:22 |
| screen-x | Myrtti: too slow | 11:22 |
| Myrtti | what package should I install to enable British English spellcheck in OO.o? | 11:22 |
| bigcalm | Pass | 11:22 |
| bigcalm | Too cold, going to get the fan heater | 11:22 |
| bigcalm | Brrrr | 11:22 |
| screen-x | openoffice.org-l10n-en-gb at a guess | 11:23 |
| Myrtti | doh | 11:23 |
| * Myrtti facepalms | 11:24 | |
| screen-x | Myrtti: I haven't confirmed that that contains spelling dictionaries.. just looked likely | 11:24 |
| Myrtti | well, it's a lot better than the ukrainian packages I looked at | 11:25 |
| screen-x | haha | 11:25 |
| bigcalm | Ehe | 11:28 |
| bigcalm | Hehe | 11:28 |
| Myrtti | yes, I need more coffee | 11:29 |
| * bigcalm hugs his fresh cupa of tea | 11:30 | |
| MooDoo | hmmm tea | 11:30 |
| HazRPG | has just found GroundControl | 11:53 |
| HazRPG | seems pretty snazzy! | 11:53 |
| bigcalm | Major Tom? | 11:58 |
| directhex | HazRPG, ? | 11:59 |
| HazRPG | directhex: As it says in the description "launchpad for your desktop" | 11:59 |
| dutchie | well, launchpad for nautilus | 11:59 |
| Baikonur | my desktop is going to stay firmly on the floor | 12:00 |
| HazRPG | basically a gui version of bzr and launchpad for nautilus... | 12:00 |
| HazRPG | dutchie: exactly :) | 12:00 |
| * MartijnVdS wants a Xoom :( | 12:07 | |
| HazRPG | MartijnVdS: What's a Xoom? | 12:12 |
| MartijnVdS | HazRPG: Tablet, Motorola, Android (Gingerbread) | 12:13 |
| HazRPG | oh was the the tablet shown at ICS? | 12:13 |
| MartijnVdS | HazRPG: I think so, yes | 12:14 |
| Ng | it's the one where you buy it and later send it back to motorola for them to enable all the features they promised ;) | 12:14 |
| MartijnVdS | Ng: only in the US (LTE).. we get 3G | 12:15 |
| MartijnVdS | but I want the wifi-only model.. 3G only costs a lot of money | 12:15 |
| Ng | ah so then the future updates to enable all of the promised features can just be applied at home! | 12:15 |
| MartijnVdS | yes :) | 12:15 |
| screen-x | MartijnVdS: Honeycomb! | 12:17 |
| MartijnVdS | http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Motorola-Xoom-Teardown/4989 | 12:18 |
| * Ng can't help but wonder if all the "err, we'll enable that later" stuff is them desparately rushing to have it in stores before ipad2 is announced today ;) | 12:21 | |
| MartijnVdS | Ng: probably, yes | 12:22 |
| MartijnVdS | especially in the US | 12:22 |
| MartijnVdS | and looking at the leaked ipad 2 specs: it has (almost) the same CPU as the Xoom | 12:22 |
| MartijnVdS | so it's in the same "class" | 12:22 |
| gord | they are using tegra? | 12:25 |
| DJones | gord: Just at the point reading so Nvidia Tegra T2 dual-core ARM Cortex-A9 CPU and ultra-low power GeForce GPU. | 12:26 |
| gord | no i mean the ipad2 | 12:26 |
| DJones | ah | 12:26 |
| gord | if it ain't using tegra, it ain't in the same class | 12:26 |
| Ng | gord: tegra for ipad2 is unlikely, but unknown | 12:26 |
| gord | tegra gpus are amazing | 12:27 |
| directhex | apple have their own arm license | 12:27 |
| directhex | they won't use tegra | 12:27 |
| Ng | SGX543 seems to be the leading contender in the rumours | 12:27 |
| gord | tegra cpus are pretty great too thought, really impressed with the speed on them | 12:28 |
| Ng | these things are all much of a muchness, and it's not the detailed technical specs that sell them to people | 12:29 |
| gord | sure, but its interesting to us nerds :) | 12:30 |
| Ng | hehe | 12:31 |
| Ng | hopefully enough UX love will go into android and webOS that they can properly compete as tablets and maybe even drive some innovation of their own | 12:31 |
| Ng | and unity, obviously :) | 12:31 |
| gord | i have absolutely zero interest in webOS, i don't think google does even... but android honeycomb looks nice | 12:33 |
| gord | the past month or so, the quality of android apps has gone through the roof too | 12:33 |
| gord | still not sold on getting an android tablet before there is a nexus-tablet or something though | 12:33 |
| Ng | apart from the rootkit ones ;) | 12:33 |
| gord | rootkits are a good thing! it means your platform is popular! or.. something | 12:34 |
| Ng | hehe | 12:34 |
| directhex | i'm not sold on android, full stop | 12:47 |
| directhex | i think it has a clear future, i just don't think it's very good | 12:47 |
| daftykins | bleh, annoying when highlights are beyond your scrollback | 13:22 |
| daftykins | anywho kernel updates ;x | 13:22 |
| AlanBell | methinks the domain squatters got in quicker than William did http://www.officialroyalwedding2011.org | 13:31 |
| gord | i'm pretty sure they prolly bought up from 1996->2040 ;) | 13:31 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | "Powered by Google App Engine, Implemented by Accenture" | 13:32 |
| AlanBell | yup, saw that too | 13:32 |
| mungojerry | AlanBell: wouldn't it be a .gov.uk? | 13:32 |
| AlanBell | gosh no! | 13:33 |
| AlanBell | that would be a constitutional crisis | 13:34 |
| mungojerry | www.royal.gov.uk | 13:34 |
| AlanBell | so it is | 13:34 |
| AlanBell | don't think it should be a .org though, but the principals of the TLDs have been abused for years | 13:35 |
| mungojerry | i don't believe the link you posted is the real one though? | 13:35 |
| AlanBell | it is | 13:35 |
| mungojerry | it looks terrible | 13:35 |
| AlanBell | http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/mediacentre/pressreleases/launch_of_royal_wedding_website_809770138.html also a .gov.uk | 13:36 |
| Myrtti | could be worse | 13:36 |
| popey | fun to see what else is hosted on that box. | 13:36 |
| AlanBell | mungojerry: stop viewing it in IE6 | 13:36 |
| popey | http://w3who.net/reverse-ip/94.136.40.82 | 13:36 |
| gord | hehe | 13:36 |
| mungojerry | popey: nice | 13:37 |
| Myrtti | oo, that's a nice site | 13:37 |
| * Myrtti bookmarks it with stopforumspam.com | 13:37 | |
| AlanBell | popey: same as which box? | 13:39 |
| popey | the ip that the website was on when i looked | 13:43 |
| popey | the royal one | 13:43 |
| screen-x | hmm, some unfortunate neighbours in that list | 13:45 |
| AlanBell | seems to be elsewhere now | 13:45 |
| AlanBell | that will be a reverse proxy or load balancer or something I expect | 13:45 |
| AlanBell | http://w3who.net/reverse-ip/89.151.94.50 | 13:47 |
| * AlanBell wonders which of those websites popey accidentally pinged | 13:48 | |
| popey | none | 13:48 |
| DeathSling | BigRedS: Many thanks for your help with ssh auto authentication, it's all working very nicely now :) | 13:50 |
| DeathSling | Anyone here installled ZImbra? I have version 6 network edition and it's states installng on an ext3 but I'm wondering if thats just some outdated info. Can I use ext4? | 13:51 |
| mungojerry | I have a Zimbra server DeathSling | 13:52 |
| BigRedS | DeathSling: awesome! | 13:52 |
| BigRedS | I occasionaly look after Zimbras, but I don't enjoy it... | 13:52 |
| mungojerry | did you know that v7 is out | 13:52 |
| DeathSling | yey, ext4 or ext3? | 13:52 |
| mungojerry | DeathSling: ext3 since the server is RHEL5.5 | 13:53 |
| * BigRedS likes ext3 'cause I keep coming across parteds that don't do 4 | 13:53 | |
| DeathSling | i do, but my time is short and I just got a virtual server running with drbd. Now finally I'm about to install it and along comes version 7....arr poo sticks! | 13:54 |
| DeathSling | again, thank you BigRedS | 13:54 |
| DeathSling | :) | 13:54 |
| * mungojerry likes zimbra | 13:55 | |
| DeathSling | is it possible then to do a vmbuilder with 10.04 but with ext3, it's default is ext4 | 13:55 |
| BigRedS | mungojerry: I think my problem is mostly unfamiliarity. And postfix/dovecot does all I need out of a mailserver | 13:55 |
| mungojerry | never used vmbuilder | 13:56 |
| DeathSling | i quite like vmbuilder, in the very short time I've been using it | 13:57 |
| mungojerry | BigRedS: we have it for around 250 users on all sorts of OS, Active Sync works v well too | 13:57 |
| mungojerry | unfortunately new IT strategy will prob mean the MS takeover since MS-loving consultants have been brought in :( | 13:58 |
| BigRedS | yeah, we've customers doing that sort of thing, does seem very very good at what it does | 13:58 |
| mungojerry | what does middle-click on a webpage do in ff4? | 13:59 |
| popey | nothing | 14:00 |
| mungojerry | does for me :( | 14:00 |
| mungojerry | try with multiple tabs open | 14:01 |
| popey | i have | 14:01 |
| popey | i am on windows | 14:01 |
| mungojerry | ok | 14:01 |
| mungojerry | it keeps opening the ubuntu vm builder page ...which means if i try to middle-click on a link get open in a new tab and miss, i lose my current page :( | 14:02 |
| mungojerry | popey: got it. if your clipboard is a url, then a middleclick on the text area of a page will paste-and-go in the address bar..http://kb.mozillazine.org/Middlemouse.contentLoadURL | 14:04 |
| popey | thats been the same for ages iirc | 14:06 |
| BigRedS | yeah, it's done that for as long as I can remember | 14:08 |
| BigRedS | even if it's not a url it does that | 14:08 |
| mungojerry | maybe i'm just getting inaccurate with my clicks, or i never have urls in my clipboard | 14:08 |
| daubers | le sigh | 14:09 |
| screen-x | !fr |daubers | 14:09 |
| lubotu3` | daubers: Ce canal est en anglais uniquement. Si vous avez besoin d'aide ou voulez discuter en francais, merci de rejoindre #ubuntu-fr, ou #ubuntu-qc. Merci. | 14:09 |
| daubers | :( | 14:09 |
| mungojerry | pourquoi tu es triste? | 14:09 |
| mungojerry | pardon | 14:10 |
| popey | Bon | 14:10 |
| daubers | The worlds all broken. I do find it weird how you the attitude of certain groups in OSS circles can deflect the weird stat of the world | 14:10 |
| daubers | s/stat/state | 14:10 |
| daubers | All the "Them against us" hooha in OSS recently seems to mirror the sudden breakout of government toppling in parts of the world | 14:11 |
| mungojerry | you mean, lots of people want to fight and overthrow their overlords? | 14:11 |
| daubers | It's just sad really | 14:11 |
| mungojerry | the internet gives people a voice who normally wouldn't be heard | 14:12 |
| daubers | It's not just the internet at the moment. I wouldn't be surprised to hear more people on street corners crying out against something or the other | 14:13 |
| mungojerry | like that guy who made the boycottnovell site..we spent his entire time trolling digg and blogs to create a louder noise than he should normally be able to make | 14:13 |
| AlanBell | and the boycott-boycottnovell counter trol | 14:13 |
| screen-x | if only all trolls were equal and opposite and dissapeared upon collision | 14:14 |
| mungojerry | daubers: call me strange but twitter contributes to a lot of it | 14:14 |
| daubers | Then we'd need to build an LTC, and no-one has that kind of money | 14:15 |
| daubers | mungojerry: I'm not sure that's it really. It depends what channels you listen too (i.e. tv, radio newspapers and so on | 14:15 |
| mungojerry | 2010 was the year of the orchestrated twitter campaign against anything you don't like, whether it's catlady, tmobile data AUP, etc | 14:15 |
| daubers | ) | 14:15 |
| mungojerry | thanks for the ) | 14:16 |
| popey | ( | 14:16 |
| mungojerry | ) | 14:16 |
| popey | { | 14:16 |
| popey | ({[{[{{((([{{ | 14:16 |
| popey | :) | 14:16 |
| shauno | pretty sure that's going to have to be a :} | 14:16 |
| popey | nice goatee | 14:16 |
| mungojerry | i don't mind { because it makes me think of a funny moustache :-{| | 14:16 |
| daubers | ✁ | 14:16 |
| AlanBell | heh, popey removed the ( from the topic | 14:17 |
| mungojerry | my office is getting refurb'd at the mo and there's one walltile missing from an otherwise complete jigsaw...it pains me to see it | 14:17 |
| mungojerry | there is a general disrespect for authority in the world | 14:18 |
| mungojerry | however it's true to say that sometimes the overlords make stupid decisions | 14:18 |
| AlanBell | respect mah authoritah | 14:19 |
| mungojerry | the students thought they would gain something by rioting and generally being jerks | 14:19 |
| mungojerry | alongside peaceful protesters as well who still expected to get their own way | 14:19 |
| mungojerry | mick jagger said - you can't always get what you want.... | 14:20 |
| daubers | The student protest fiasco just helped re-enforce a negative stereotype | 14:22 |
| mungojerry | true | 14:24 |
| screen-x | daubers: you sound pretty forlorn, its going to be ok, the worst that can happen is death. | 14:25 |
| daubers | screen-x: Meh. Everythings just stupid at the moment really. Eventually the level of idiocy in the world will be so big it will gravitate in on itself and implode | 14:26 |
| Myrtti | that sounds like something I have said | 14:26 |
| DeathSling | BigRedS: Regarding Zimbra, what do you mean by 'parteds' when you say "coming across parteds that don't do 4" ? | 14:27 |
| DeathSling | do you mean partition editors | 14:28 |
| screen-x | !info parted | 14:28 |
| lubotu3` | parted (source: parted): The GNU Parted disk partition resizing program. In component main, is standard. Version 2.3-2ubuntu2 (maverick), package size 72 kB, installed size 196 kB | 14:28 |
| * daubers may not be getting enough vitamin d recently | 14:28 | |
| screen-x | daubers: You can dilute the idocy, in your corner of the world :) | 14:29 |
| BigRedS | DeathSling: ah, I didn't mean with zimbra. Just that the first few times I tried ext4 it was on systems that would install to it, but then couldn't edit it | 14:29 |
| * MooDoo looks forward to implosion | 14:29 | |
| BigRedS | which was rather irritating | 14:29 |
| screen-x | MooDoo: going to watch from TRATEOTU? | 14:30 |
| daubers | screen-x: Tahat tends to end with a prison sentence | 14:30 |
| screen-x | daubers: nah, just being should help | 14:30 |
| MooDoo | screen-x: if they do a good pan galactic gargle blaster not one of the cheap rip offs | 14:30 |
| MartijnVdS | MooDoo: one with real Santraginus Vian water? | 14:31 |
| MartijnVdS | MooDoo: and Arcturan Mega-gin | 14:31 |
| MooDoo | yup that's the one | 14:31 |
| daubers | screen-x: Until I can sort my lcak of concentration, I'm part of the issue at the moment | 14:32 |
| DeathSling | BigRedS: again, thank you :) | 14:32 |
| screen-x | /kick daubers | 14:32 |
| screen-x | that should help ;-) | 14:32 |
| BigRedS | DeathSling: no problems! I'm always happy to complain about a lack of tools :) | 14:42 |
| Romeo_ | Hi all need some quick help, im not sure what ive done but when i have something open lets say firefox, once i minimize it i cant see it on my taskbar | 14:44 |
| Romeo_ | #ubuntu | 14:45 |
| BigRedS | Romeo_: you might've removed the taskbar from the panel? | 14:45 |
| Romeo_ | the taskbar is there | 14:45 |
| Romeo_ | i did remove it but readded it | 14:45 |
| BigRedS | ooh | 14:46 |
| Romeo_ | so now i have a solid taskbar the recycle bin on it is gone and also when i minimize anything i dont see it :/ | 14:46 |
| BigRedS | Ah, I've no idea, then. Hmmm | 14:46 |
| Romeo_ | its happened to me loads of times but never asked for help | 14:46 |
| DJones | Romeo_: You could try resetting your panels | 14:47 |
| DJones | !panels | 14:47 |
| lubotu3` | To reset the gnome panel to defaults, type this in a !terminal: « gconftool --recursive-unset /apps/panel && killall gnome-panel » | 14:47 |
| Romeo_ | sorted, thanx! | 14:47 |
| === Lcawte|Away is now known as Lcawte | ||
| seanh_ | Hey, I installed Ubuntu (using a normal ubuntu install CD) onto a USB drive. Now I've booted the USB on a computer, and am trying to use it to install Ubuntu on the computer | 15:33 |
| seanh_ | It did not have the install ubuntu menu item like installer CDs/USBs have, so I installed the ubiquity package and that got me the menu item | 15:34 |
| seanh_ | But when I run the installer, it crashes after partitioning and before copying any files | 15:34 |
| seanh_ | Anyone know why this doesn't work? | 15:34 |
| === Monster_Killer is now known as MonsterKiller | ||
| shauno | oh yuck. python doesn't have switch/case ? | 16:41 |
| kazade | shauno, nope, if/elif/elif/elif/else | 16:41 |
| BigRedS | and I thought perl was bad not getting it until 5.10... | 16:43 |
| kazade | There are 3 things that annoy me about Python syntax. That's one, the other two are "self" and not being able to enforce a method's return type | 16:46 |
| ali1234 | you could make your own switch with a dict and function pointers | 16:52 |
| HazRPG | ha this is really bugging the living crap out of me! | 17:01 |
| directhex | shauno, see, python sucks! | 17:01 |
| HazRPG | directhex: :o | 17:01 |
| HazRPG | I'm trying to make a function to grab every possible deal combination possible for days of stay | 17:03 |
| HazRPG | and I just can't get my head around it | 17:03 |
| gord | why can't you just use if's? | 17:03 |
| gord | if you were going to use a switch that is | 17:04 |
| shauno | I wouldn't go that far, but I am failing to see the appeal so far | 17:04 |
| HazRPG | shauno: with python? | 17:04 |
| shauno | yeah | 17:04 |
| HazRPG | shauno: Blender vs 3D studio max | 17:04 |
| HazRPG | Blender = 8 MB, 3D studio max > 5000 MB | 17:05 |
| HazRPG | oh wait, I think blender is 15MB now cos of a whole bunch of new stuff | 17:05 |
| shauno | I don't like depreciating old stuff the moment there's a replacement for it. makes for an iffy transition | 17:06 |
| HazRPG | shauno: python helps make applications run smoother too at times | 17:06 |
| HazRPG | shauno: how so? | 17:07 |
| shauno | optparse vs argparse | 17:08 |
| HazRPG | ah | 17:08 |
| shauno | one machine (2.7) tells me optparse is depreciated, the other machine (2.6) doesn't have argparse | 17:08 |
| HazRPG | surely if you've compiled the code, it should still run on either though? | 17:09 |
| andylockran | wahey :) | 17:11 |
| shauno | dunno, I ripped that bit out and hardcoded what I needed for now :) | 17:11 |
| HazRPG | brb going to restart X | 17:12 |
| ali1234 | http://pastebin.com/TZ2LdK19 | 17:12 |
| ali1234 | just seen on pastebin.com domain reports: http://youlearntwitface.com/ | 17:15 |
| ali1234 | can't tell if parody... | 17:18 |
| DJones | Sounds like a parody, plus with the "sold out" sign at the bottom would suggest it was | 17:19 |
| ali1234 | looks more like a scam to me | 17:22 |
| AlanBell | looks real to me | 17:23 |
| ali1234 | some of the registration links still go to an online payment company... which 404s | 17:24 |
| shauno | I picked the most unlikely looking face out of the list of presenters, googled the name and found it convincing :( | 17:25 |
| ali1234 | yeah but notice the disclaimer: "we reserve the right to substitute any presenters, for any reason" | 17:26 |
| AlanBell | Thomas Power is quite well known and the bio is right | 17:26 |
| AlanBell | standard disclaimer | 17:26 |
| shauno | googled Dave Crane because he looked cool. turns out he's as real as '"life designers" get | 17:26 |
| ali1234 | http://www.youlearntwitface.com/combo.html "oh actually, we're not sold out, and tickets are only $97 now" | 17:26 |
| AlanBell | it isn't an actual scam | 17:27 |
| ali1234 | and link to diferent payment company | 17:27 |
| AlanBell | I see no value in it whatsoever | 17:27 |
| ali1234 | um yeah, if you turn up there will probably be something there | 17:27 |
| ali1234 | incidentally, looks like this link works - you can still buy tickets for the event that was in 2010 | 17:28 |
| AlanBell | yup, bunch of business types raving about how SEO helped their business which is totally different to the businesses of the audience | 17:28 |
| * Daviey will buy lots and sell them for PROFIT! | 17:28 | |
| ali1234 | it will probably just be that guy and 12 of his mates you've never heard of, talking about how you can make loads of money running fake conferences :) | 17:29 |
| danfish | afternoon | 17:30 |
| danfish | I actually said 'lol' in a real conversation today. Am i beyond saving? | 17:30 |
| AlanBell | ali1234: yeah, something like that. Wouldn't be surprised if there is some discussion of multi-level-marketing and neuro linguistic programming in there too | 17:31 |
| Hazmaster | danfish: heh, i've let it slip a few times too :/ | 17:31 |
| AlanBell | danfish: lol | 17:31 |
| Daviey | danfish, did you say L-O-L or loal? | 17:31 |
| danfish | AlanBell: :P | 17:32 |
| jpds | Daviey: Yes, I'd imagine. | 17:32 |
| danfish | Daviey: loal | 17:32 |
| Daviey | jpds, funny guy! :) | 17:32 |
| danfish | I think we need to set up the ubuntu equivalent of the roman catholic confessional, where all your online sins can be absolved ;) | 17:32 |
| Daviey | jpds, it was a XOR question :) | 17:33 |
| jpds | Daviey: You didn't specify that! | 17:33 |
| * Daviey makes a point of saying xor when he means or :) | 17:33 | |
| HazRPG | :P | 17:35 |
| HazRPG | ali1234: Hmm, seems some programmers still use even more wonderful ways to get screensize for flash | 17:37 |
| HazRPG | the embedded version of youtube seems to produce random results | 17:37 |
| popey | 17:30:35 < danfish> I actually said 'lol' in a real conversation today. Am i beyond saving? | 17:37 |
| popey | I have said "slash me is hungry" before now :S | 17:38 |
| HazRPG | ali1234: ah no wait, I think chrome updated... | 17:38 |
| * HazRPG goes to check the google-chrome bash script | 17:38 | |
| HazRPG | ali1234: ah yes, it seems it has replaced the bash script | 17:40 |
| HazRPG | cheeky | 17:40 |
| danfish | popey: hah, so it's not just me - there is hope after all :) | 17:41 |
| AlanBell | danfish: or you are both beyond saving | 17:42 |
| HazRPG | danfish: I've used "tl;dr" to stop someone giving me way too much info before | 17:43 |
| gord | aa | 17:46 |
| popey | Bug 646669 | 17:46 |
| gord | cat got on keyboard... | 17:46 |
| popey | here we go again | 17:46 |
| lubotu3` | Launchpad bug 646669 in unity (Ubuntu) "Trash label mismatch Nautilus" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/646669 | 17:46 |
| dutchie | oh great | 17:48 |
| danfish | AlanBell: at least I'll have some company in the asylum ;) | 17:48 |
| danfish | yikes - that bug again :( | 17:50 |
| gord | popey, maybe fix the en_gb translation to replace wastebin with rubbish bin? | 17:51 |
| gord | i don't actually know how the launchpad translation stuff works | 17:51 |
| popey | ditto | 17:52 |
| AlanBell | I like that character in HHGTTG who declared his house to be the outside of the asylum | 17:52 |
| * danfish had to google HHGTTG | 17:53 | |
| jpds | danfish: ... | 17:54 |
| * AlanBell takes danfish's geek badge away | 17:55 | |
| danfish | waaaah! | 17:55 |
| Cepheus | AlanBell: The bloke who decorated his house inside out? | 17:55 |
| AlanBell | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_characters_from_The_Hitchhiker%27s_Guide_to_the_Galaxy#Wonko_the_Sane | 17:57 |
| Cepheus | yeah, couldn't remember his name | 17:57 |
| Cepheus | I didn't read So Long that many times | 17:57 |
| AlanBell | it is good that we have wikipedia as our global curator of important information such as that | 17:58 |
| popey | i have a ripped 5 pound note | 17:59 |
| popey | i need sellotape | 17:59 |
| Cepheus | I like to think of it as a rough guide to global knowledge | 17:59 |
| danfish | Sanity is a sliding scale and I'm sliding off the bottom ;) | 17:59 |
| danfish | popey: spellotape is better | 18:00 |
| HazRPG | popey: ooo the new podcast site is sexy! | 18:14 |
| Azelphur | I came up with an awesome (D)DoS prevention tactic, http://game.azelphur.com/forum/denial-service-hall-shame | 18:15 |
| Azelphur | :D | 18:15 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | Wife's PC is getting sick. The mobo and cpu etc. are quite old now. Just spec'd a quick update: mobo, cpu and 4G of RAM: £106 inc VAT. | 18:17 |
| X3N | people still use PCs? | 18:18 |
| AlanBell | they use the iPad2 now | 18:18 |
| Azelphur | X3N: I use a PC o.O | 18:18 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | I use a PC, a laptop and a phone. | 18:19 |
| exobuzz | X3N, instead of ? | 18:19 |
| X3N | A good laptop | 18:19 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | In fact several laptops. But I like my PC. | 18:19 |
| Azelphur | I use a PC, Laptop, Netbook and Phone | 18:19 |
| exobuzz | is a laptop not a pc ? oh ok. | 18:19 |
| Azelphur | might be selling my netbook and getting a tabletbook soon, then I'll have a tablet too :D | 18:19 |
| exobuzz | i upgraded from my old laptop. | 18:19 |
| danfish | I haven't read about the ipad2 but even so..meh | 18:20 |
| exobuzz | last laptop £1400. current pc (including screen - £700) | 18:20 |
| exobuzz | you have to spend a lot of money on a laptop for decent speed | 18:20 |
| === Lcawte is now known as Lcawte|Away | ||
| gord | my laptop annoys me, all laptops do. you can't get they "just right" | 18:20 |
| X3N | but doesn't everyone need a laptop these days anyway? | 18:20 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | That's a lot for something that can easily be dropped. | 18:20 |
| HazRPG | Azelphur: haha love it, bet the guy feel really stupid now :P | 18:21 |
| Azelphur | HazRPG: :D | 18:21 |
| exobuzz | X3N, i think the answer is obviously no. | 18:21 |
| Azelphur | HazRPG: word on the street is that someone sent them a few thousand boxes and signed them up for a few interesting magazines. | 18:21 |
| popey | irres | 18:22 |
| popey | bah | 18:22 |
| popey | irresponsible really | 18:22 |
| popey | and what of the companies whose money is being wasted with these gags? | 18:22 |
| Azelphur | *shrug* either that or leave them to roam the internet attacking nonprofits | 18:22 |
| exobuzz | Azelphur, what if you make a mistake ? what if his pc is just infected. im not sure what you are doing is a good idea | 18:22 |
| HazRPG | Azelphur: xD | 18:22 |
| Azelphur | exobuzz: all the information there is confirmed if you notice :) | 18:22 |
| Azelphur | popey: I didn't do it, I just posted the information and left people to do what they wanted *shrug* | 18:23 |
| HazRPG | Azelphur: See previous (D)DoS attacks I've had on my server/websites, I've gathered all information I could and sent their ISP a nice letter with all information and logs attached for their viewing pleasure :) | 18:23 |
| exobuzz | Azelphur, confirmed until you realise you made a mistake perhaps. you dont know that the server owner is the one | 18:23 |
| Azelphur | HazRPG: I've done that before, I never even get a reply :( | 18:24 |
| exobuzz | it could be hacked | 18:24 |
| Azelphur | exobuzz: I sent him emails and got rude replies, it's pretty obvious that it's him. | 18:24 |
| exobuzz | in a court of law, i think that would be amusing "evidence" | 18:24 |
| exobuzz | rude replies. guilty. | 18:24 |
| Azelphur | hehe :p | 18:24 |
| === richard is now known as Guest47764 | ||
| exobuzz | why not just email the isp and be done with it | 18:24 |
| exobuzz | let them handle it. | 18:24 |
| Azelphur | exobuzz: (18:23:56) Azelphur: HazRPG: I've done that before, I never even get a reply :( | 18:25 |
| popey | Azelphur: yeah yeah | 18:25 |
| HazRPG | Azelphur: I've had several replies in the past, some said they were looking into it, and others capped their internet down until they fixed whatever it was that caused the DoS's | 18:25 |
| exobuzz | did you contact their abuse@ mailbox? if you got no reply, did you contact their upstream provider(s) ? | 18:25 |
| Azelphur | I even spoke to a lawyer about going to the police and he said there's very little point, at most I could expect to get them a warning but probably nothing, they arn't interested in anything non-damaging | 18:25 |
| Azelphur | exobuzz: I contacted the administrative for rtr-online.com | 18:26 |
| exobuzz | i dont know, but i dont like this sort of thing. sort of electronic lynch mob. | 18:26 |
| Azelphur | and he said "your NEED is not my priority" | 18:26 |
| Azelphur | \o/ | 18:26 |
| Azelphur | exobuzz: Also as I say we've got the name of the attacker which is the same lastname as the owner of the website and it's a family business, so it's pretty obvious the attack came from there | 18:26 |
| Azelphur | and that probably would stand up in court :p | 18:27 |
| HazRPG | Azelphur: emailing the administrator of the site is never really enough, usually best to report to abuse@<host-of-ip> | 18:28 |
| Azelphur | HazRPG: I'll do that too, any ideas on what I should send with it? | 18:28 |
| HazRPG | Azelphur: like I said, I've had replies from those people a few times, and they've at very least investigated the problem | 18:28 |
| HazRPG | Azelphur: Best to send the log section with the DoS attacks | 18:28 |
| Azelphur | HazRPG: are you a real business though? I'm just a nonprofit gaming community | 18:28 |
| HazRPG | as a minimum | 18:28 |
| HazRPG | Azelphur: I'm only 23 dude, it was a non-profit game/mumble service running off it | 18:29 |
| Azelphur | fun | 18:29 |
| Azelphur | I'll try that too then :) | 18:29 |
| HazRPG | wasn't even a logged IP from either source, they were just bombarding my router and web server | 18:30 |
| HazRPG | trying to take it down in general | 18:30 |
| Azelphur | all I have is a packet dump from wireshark of loads of spam packets to UDP/27015 from their address | 18:30 |
| HazRPG | Azelphur: send that through (both plain-text and as a wireshark file), along with the whois info, and the steam account info as proof | 18:31 |
| HazRPG | the whois should say where to report the abuse info to | 18:31 |
| popey | how long did the attack last? | 18:31 |
| Azelphur | cool | 18:31 |
| Azelphur | popey: dunno, I had it iptabled in < 60 seconds, I'm getting quite proficient at blocking these idiots | 18:32 |
| HazRPG | popey: Mine? They did it every hr for about a week non-stop | 18:32 |
| Azelphur | and I have a lot of bandwith so I don't really care about absorbing the traffic | 18:32 |
| Azelphur | popey: notice the google links on my post, you can see I'm not the only victim either :) | 18:33 |
| HazRPG | popey: I didn't notice it at first because it wasn't a log I checked often, but when people said it was getting slow and sluggish I checked everything | 18:33 |
| popey | so this lasted for a few minutes and you spent how long on this ? | 18:33 |
| Azelphur | popey: I chose to spend a little time on it because he's attacked so many others | 18:34 |
| Azelphur | there's literally pages of diatribe from this guy on google | 18:34 |
| gord | huh, this love film streaming on ps3 works pretty well, surprised | 18:34 |
| popey | does he run his own server? | 18:34 |
| Azelphur | no | 18:34 |
| Azelphur | he just goes around attacking other servers near enough for the point of it | 18:35 |
| HazRPG | gord: *cringe* that means you've updated your console | 18:35 |
| HazRPG | gord: 3.56 apparently has a rootkit installed with it | 18:35 |
| Azelphur | we didn't even do anything to provoke an attack, he got angry with some other player on the server and decided that was motivation enough to DoS me | 18:35 |
| Azelphur | (I wasn't even present until the DoS started, a player told me about the threats) | 18:35 |
| directhex | gord, not interested in lovefilm until they do HD | 18:35 |
| Azelphur | so yea, I spent some time on him :) | 18:36 |
| gord | HazRPG, yes i did, rootkit is a horrible word to throw around | 18:36 |
| gord | HazRPG, i bought a playstation as a gaming console and blu-ray player, its fantastic at both, sony can rootkit it all they want as long as i can do those | 18:36 |
| Azelphur | HazRPG: happen to know how to filter a wireshark file so only the relevant stuff is shown? | 18:36 |
| gord | directhex, i could never stream hd ;) | 18:36 |
| Azelphur | I know how to apply the filter but I don't know how to save the filtered results | 18:36 |
| HazRPG | gord: Only stating what I've read from several sources. | 18:36 |
| directhex | gord, i have 13 megabit downstream, and am considering bt vision with >30 down | 18:37 |
| gord | directhex, thats nice for you. you won't even consider love film for titles that don't have HD versions? | 18:37 |
| HazRPG | gord: Ah see I only bought the PS3 because I knew Final Fantasy would be on it (being the idiot I was, I thought they'd only be exclusive like in the past), and the other reason was for having linux on it... but they stripped that away from me :( | 18:37 |
| directhex | HazRPG, but ff13 blows | 18:38 |
| HazRPG | I now have 20GB missing from my HDD that I just can't plain access | 18:38 |
| Azelphur | HazRPG: 39,346 packets, all the same from one IP in 11 seconds :D | 18:38 |
| HazRPG | directhex: I liked it, even though it was a bit linear | 18:38 |
| gord | huh.. the aspect ratio is all wrong | 18:38 |
| HazRPG | Azelphur: ouch lol | 18:38 |
| Cepheus | when Sony puts rootkits on people's personal property (see that CD DRM scandal about 6 years ago) that is totally unacceptable | 18:38 |
| Azelphur | hehe | 18:39 |
| HazRPG | Azelphur: did it cause much hassle to the server? | 18:39 |
| Azelphur | HazRPG: so do you know how to save the filtered results? | 18:39 |
| Azelphur | HazRPG: being a game server yes, it caused everyone to time oud. | 18:39 |
| Azelphur | time out* | 18:39 |
| HazRPG | Azelphur: should just be able to click save on it | 18:39 |
| Cepheus | the PS3, au contraire, is their proprietary platform. I'm not saying I agree with their actions but they have more of a right to do so than DRM rootkits like XCP and SecuROM | 18:40 |
| Azelphur | HazRPG: I do not know why I didn't just try that *facedesk* | 18:40 |
| Cepheus | which install (usually silently) on a user's private PC | 18:40 |
| HazRPG | Azelphur: file->save as should just do it :) | 18:41 |
| Azelphur | indeed | 18:41 |
| gord | its not like other console makers don't do the same thing all the time anyway | 18:41 |
| HazRPG | Azelphur: iirc you'll get some options to select what it is your actually wanting to save too | 18:41 |
| Azelphur | yea, I did | 18:41 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | I love this idea: Offsetting your proprietary footprint... http://www.theringtail.co.uk/2010/02/freedom-ubuntu-and-offsetting-your-proprietary-footprint/ | 18:42 |
| Cepheus | I'm pretty sure that the 360 sends Microsoft hashes of the CD drive firmware to detect unauthorized modification | 18:42 |
| HazRPG | Azelphur: export as plain-text too :) | 18:43 |
| HazRPG | Azelphur: since they might not have wireshark to open it up with | 18:43 |
| Cepheus | In fact, the 360's hypervisor actually does in-place encryption in RAM | 18:43 |
| gord | huh restarting the playback fixed the aspect ratio, thats a bit annoying but i can live with that | 18:44 |
| gord | it doesn't support the ps3 blu-ray remote very well though, for shame. its the best remote ever! | 18:45 |
| Cepheus | I think that next generation, console manafacturers will have realised that they need a professional hardware and software security consultation on their system designs if they want to secure their platforms | 18:46 |
| HazRPG | gord: Hmm, I don't think other console makers take the same approach | 18:47 |
| gord | HazRPG, the wii goes as far as physically removing content it detects as not supplied by them | 18:48 |
| Azelphur | HazRPG: wanna help me write this? http://ietherpad.com/rUWHwH6b2L | 18:48 |
| Cepheus | gord: actually, it's not quite that drastic. what they have is basically like looking for files by path and removing them | 18:48 |
| === ivanka is now known as ivanka-train | ||
| Cepheus | though there are per-save integrity checks done on games that have been publicly exploited | 18:49 |
| gord | its actually hugely impressive that sony managed to go this long without needed to do this kind of stuff | 18:50 |
| Cepheus | not really. It's only due to the removal of Linux, which is the primary motivation of talented hackers | 18:51 |
| gord | eh? | 18:51 |
| Cepheus | the sort of hackers which have the capability to break open these systems are not motivated by cheating or software piracy. They were perfectly happy with the level of homebrew support provided by the OtherOS function | 18:52 |
| gord | yeah, no, i disagree | 18:54 |
| Cepheus | the design mistake in the PS3's security system shows that there's a lack of knowledgable security staff in Sony's R&D labs. Especially as the PS3 wasn't the only device affected. | 18:54 |
| Cepheus | The security flaw manifested in the same way on the PSP which already has a remarkably poor track record for security | 18:55 |
| directhex | some of the ps3 security bugs are *hilarious* | 18:59 |
| Cepheus | directhex: The funniest two are the use of the same random number everywhere | 19:00 |
| Cepheus | and | 19:00 |
| directhex | yeah | 19:00 |
| directhex | that one is hilarious | 19:00 |
| Cepheus | that their hypervisor (which is a stock one, and not for security) will happily assign you any specified memory chunk you ask for, including those used by the kernel and hypervisor itself | 19:01 |
| daubers | Evening | 19:10 |
| === richard is now known as Guest22159 | ||
| Azelphur | took down the forum post and sent a mail to their abuse@, giving the system a chance :p | 19:24 |
| HazRPG | Cepheus, directhex: Ha yeah, I remember seeing the CCC talk... I giggled myself senseless after watching that. | 19:28 |
| HazRPG | gord: Btw, I agree with Cepheus, the reason the PS3 has stood up this long wasn't because the PS3 was impossible to crack, it was because no one really cared to do anything since Linux was supported from the get-go. | 19:29 |
| andylockran | wahey, macbook on the way to me I think :) | 19:29 |
| HazRPG | gord: Heck, even I attempted to tamper with mine once I'd found out I couldn't get into my linux partition anymore. | 19:29 |
| HazRPG | gord: I mainly wanted to get my data off my hard drive, and recover the partition back for usable space to the console. | 19:30 |
| HazRPG | Spent countless hours trying to work out how they'd stored the data on the hard drive. | 19:31 |
| Cepheus | they could have at least added a facility to recover such partitions | 19:31 |
| HazRPG | Although, I'm not really as talented as most of the hackers out there... so I just gave up, wiped it clean a good couple of times (after backing up saves, etc) and let the console deal with it. | 19:32 |
| HazRPG | still have a dump of the whole hard drive though in raw format should anything ever come of it - its not a case that the data was sensitive material and the stuff on it lost, I was just mainly angry that I lost it in the first place - plus there might be a few files that I hadn't backed up on there. | 19:33 |
| HazRPG | Cepheus: You'd think so wouldn't you :/ | 19:33 |
| jpds | photorec is really good for these kinds of things. | 19:33 |
| ali1234 | foremost | 19:33 |
| ali1234 | or just a hex editor | 19:34 |
| ali1234 | actually step 1: strings -n 10 dump.bin | less | 19:35 |
| HazRPG | jpds: I doubt it, the whole drive gets encrypted in a proprietary format | 19:35 |
| HazRPG | jpds: Took me hours to get the computer to even realise there was a hard drive in there in the first place | 19:35 |
| jpds | HazRPG: Nice. | 19:35 |
| HazRPG | jpds: otherwise it would have been dead easy to recover the files from it | 19:36 |
| HazRPG | ali1234: hmm, would that really work? | 19:36 |
| ali1234 | idk | 19:36 |
| gord | just to point things out, linux was only removed because people were cracking it... | 19:37 |
| gord | it wasn't the other way around | 19:37 |
| directhex | gord, that's a convenient lie from sony btw | 19:37 |
| kunjan | hello | 19:37 |
| gord | sorry right yes, they removed it because they are evil and want to hurt you | 19:37 |
| gord | kunjan, hello! | 19:37 |
| kunjan | hai | 19:37 |
| kunjan | hai gord | 19:38 |
| HazRPG | gord: people weren't trying to crack it, people were trying to get more from their hardware than sony was allowing - not the same as cracking | 19:38 |
| directhex | gord, linux support was missing from early ps3 slim prototypes before the first linux-based hacking attempts were publicized | 19:38 |
| gord | directhex, it wasn't removed, it was never added | 19:38 |
| dogmatic69 | could anyone tell me where is the 'correct' place to install apps? | 19:38 |
| kunjan | software centre | 19:38 |
| gord | dogmatic69, via the software centre? what are you trying to install and how? | 19:38 |
| ali1234 | gord: hmm so why did they remove ps1 support? was that being used for cracking too? | 19:39 |
| dogmatic69 | 0MQ | 19:39 |
| ali1234 | (or was it ps2?) | 19:39 |
| dogmatic69 | ./configure and make | 19:39 |
| HazRPG | dogmatic69: Software Centre is your best bet for most things, unless your confident with aptitude or synaptic | 19:39 |
| dogmatic69 | http://www.zeromq.org/intro:get-the-software | 19:39 |
| directhex | gord, it was removed. both the fat & slim run the same firmware | 19:39 |
| dogmatic69 | HazRPG: that is not in apt-get | 19:40 |
| gord | ali1234, sony paniced basically, i don't think they did it because of a specific problem but more because they just didn't want loose threads | 19:40 |
| Cepheus | gord: actually it was removed from the slim before that happened | 19:40 |
| HazRPG | ali1234: PS2 ;) | 19:40 |
| directhex | gord, and the slim is entirely capable of running linux. the feature was removed from the firmware. | 19:40 |
| gord | directhex, it wasn't removed from the slim, it was *never* *added* | 19:40 |
| gord | i bought one, release day, didn't have the option from day one | 19:40 |
| directhex | gord, PRECISELY | 19:40 |
| ali1234 | gord: so nothing to do with people not being willing to buy the latest iteration of some tired franchise if their old PS2 disc still works perfectly well? | 19:41 |
| gord | ali1234, oh sorry i misread | 19:41 |
| HazRPG | ali1234: I have a feeling they removed that because they thought the vulnerabilities in the PS2 chip that was inside the PS3 could be used against them. Which is why they started to manufacture future consoles after the initial 40/60GB's without that chip inside it - but why the removed the Software Emulation for the PS2 is beyond me | 19:41 |
| gord | ali1234, they removed ps2 support to reduce costs iirc | 19:41 |
| directhex | there's no "slim" versus "fat" firmwares. they run the same firmware. the firmware they put on the slim had a feature the hardware supported fine removed. | 19:41 |
| HazRPG | gord: The firmware in your slim is still the same as one in the fat ;) | 19:42 |
| HazRPG | gord: it was stripped out on purpose, and released as such. | 19:42 |
| HazRPG | Sony has even admitted as such if I recall. | 19:43 |
| gord | HazRPG, the *product* did not come with linux support, from day one, it was neither added nor removed | 19:43 |
| dogmatic69 | gord: so where is the place to compile this stuff? | 19:43 |
| gord | i'm going to go make a pizza, y'all can claim i removed linux support from it all you want | 19:43 |
| dogmatic69 | dont want to really clutter my home dir | 19:43 |
| directhex | ... how is this an argument? | 19:43 |
| ali1234 | all i can say is kudos to graf_chokolo for publicly and visibly standing up to these people | 19:44 |
| HazRPG | dogmatic69: Ah, sorry didn't notice that | 19:44 |
| KrimZon | I just tried handbrake, but it only seemed to support mp4 and that h264 format, rather than the xvid I'd been encoding with dvd::rip | 19:45 |
| KrimZon | so I tested some stuff in mp4 but there was so much colour bleeding it looked like I'd stabbed a unicorn | 19:45 |
| HazRPG | ali1234: and fail0verflow | 19:46 |
| ali1234 | most people would not continue after sony raided their house. | 19:46 |
| HazRPG | dogmatic69: to compile you'll need to do it from command line | 19:47 |
| dogmatic69 | HazRPG: my question was not how to compile it | 19:47 |
| dogmatic69 | where | 19:47 |
| HazRPG | ah | 19:48 |
| HazRPG | my mistake | 19:48 |
| ali1234 | considering that you don't really have write access to anything outside ~ | 19:48 |
| ali1234 | except for /tmp, /var/tmp etc | 19:48 |
| ali1234 | the answer is clearly ~ | 19:48 |
| HazRPG | iirc just place the download anywere in ~, run the commands from there | 19:48 |
| HazRPG | some coders have their code automatically compile (or is it make?) in the correct place for you | 19:50 |
| KrimZon | could've been the turbo first pass though | 19:50 |
| HazRPG | ali1234: wow I have so much to learn about make files | 19:52 |
| HazRPG | trying to work out from the download where its trying to place it | 19:52 |
| ali1234 | i wouldn't bother learning gnu make tbh | 19:52 |
| ali1234 | learn cmake instead | 19:52 |
| ali1234 | the trouble with make is for any none-trivial project you need autotools, and autotools seriously need to diaf | 19:53 |
| HazRPG | ali1234: is that what you use? | 19:53 |
| ali1234 | if i was going to make a none trivial project i would use cmake, sure | 19:53 |
| ali1234 | for trivial stuff (that does not require autotools) make is fine | 19:53 |
| ali1234 | but you can learn that in 10 minutes | 19:53 |
| HazRPG | ali1234: just interested, since I would like to develop code for linux at some point | 19:54 |
| HazRPG | getting sick of Windows coding | 19:54 |
| HazRPG | esp. since I'm trying my best to run away from it | 19:54 |
| Cepheus | cmake is a breath of fresh air | 19:55 |
| ali1234 | well most likely you won't be making a new project from scratch, so you would use whatever the project uses | 19:55 |
| ali1234 | probably only about 10 people in the whole world actually know how to do this with autotools | 19:55 |
| Cepheus | it also has good support for a large range of IDEs and build toolchains | 19:55 |
| HazRPG | tell you what, my php coding has been so much better since I've started focusing on linux more - love the fact that you can try out functions in the terminal | 19:56 |
| ali1234 | if you are making a new project, you probably won't be making it in C, so again, make won't be much use to you | 19:56 |
| ali1234 | if you actually are making a new project and doing it in C it's probably going to be highly OS specific and so won't need autotools anyway | 19:56 |
| Cepheus | autotools will generally on non-POSIX environment | 19:56 |
| Cepheus | ali1234: Not necessarily. C can be very portable. | 19:57 |
| ali1234 | no. just no. | 19:57 |
| Cepheus | give me a language that is portable. | 19:57 |
| HazRPG | ali1234: The project I have in mind when I get round to it, will mainly be C++ if I can help it - but I would really like it to be multi-platform from compile | 19:57 |
| ali1234 | anything can be portable as long as you use the magic 1% of the language that works everywhere | 19:57 |
| HazRPG | been looking into compile time header checks, etc | 19:58 |
| AlanBell | you should never have to think about which language to use for any project ever | 19:58 |
| ali1234 | however, if you use java it's more like 50%, and if you use python it is more like 100% | 19:58 |
| Cepheus | The C standard library is generally standardised. things like sockets are easy to abstract | 19:58 |
| HazRPG | AlanBell: how'd ya mean? | 19:58 |
| ali1234 | if you use C++ and Qt it is probably around 90% | 19:58 |
| Cepheus | and there are libraries that do this for you. | 19:58 |
| HazRPG | dogmatic69: have you managed to install that software btw? | 19:59 |
| dogmatic69 | still waiting to know where i should stick it | 19:59 |
| Cepheus | JVM is either written in C or C++ | 19:59 |
| dogmatic69 | HazRPG: ^ | 19:59 |
| Cepheus | Python is certainly written in C. | 19:59 |
| ali1234 | who writes sockets code any more in this day and age? | 19:59 |
| AlanBell | if you are doing a Wordpress extension or Joomla plugin it will be php, if you are doing a Django based thing it will be python, if you are doing a device driver it will be C if you are hacking on Alfresco it will be Java | 19:59 |
| HazRPG | dogmatic69: noticed | 19:59 |
| dogmatic69 | HazRPG: think someone said something | 19:59 |
| ali1234 | python written in C by someone else than me | 19:59 |
| HazRPG | dogmatic69: well like I said, compile and make it anywhere in ~ | 20:00 |
| AlanBell | if you are starting a new project from scratch you should already *know* what the best language in the world ever is | 20:00 |
| AlanBell | because if you don't you are not ready to start something from scratch | 20:00 |
| HazRPG | dogmatic69: it should just place itself in the right place, but if not... just do what I do and make a .myapps folder in your ~ and place it there | 20:00 |
| dogmatic69 | HazRPG: ok, ill make 'program files' in ~ :D | 20:00 |
| ali1234 | if you are writing a new thing from scratch, it probably means you hate all the old ones, and think they would be much better if the authors just used language X | 20:00 |
| Cepheus | Virtually every general language has support for sockets, because they are *widely* used. | 20:00 |
| HazRPG | dogmatic69: best not to have spaces I find ;) | 20:00 |
| dogmatic69 | lol, i know... just bringing some m$ | 20:01 |
| HazRPG | dogmatic69: you could do either ~/programfiles or ~/.programfiles | 20:01 |
| dogmatic69 | apps | 20:01 |
| HazRPG | that way the folder is hidden :) | 20:01 |
| dogmatic69 | ;) | 20:01 |
| ali1234 | Cepheus: i have not had to write code that manually opens sockets in years, because programming languages today are significantly higher level than that | 20:01 |
| Cepheus | libraries like APR, NPR and Glib make portability in C trivial. | 20:02 |
| ali1234 | the only reason anyone would actually write that code is in order to make compatibility libs, which as you point out, already exist in massive amounts | 20:02 |
| dogmatic69 | by the way, any coders around... you should check out this 0MQ shit... its awesome | 20:02 |
| AlanBell | Cepheus: cpython is written in c, but there are other pythons | 20:02 |
| Cepheus | AlanBell: CPython is the standard and by far the leading implementation. PyPy, Jython et al are simply do not have the right level of stability and compatability for shipment in distributions or use in production environments | 20:03 |
| AlanBell | Cepheus: sure, I don't disagree with any of that | 20:04 |
| HazRPG | ali1234: I've done socket code for a Java app before. | 20:04 |
| AlanBell | I have done socket code in RPG on an AS/400 | 20:04 |
| HazRPG | ali1234: I hate to admit this, but one of the first few programs I'd ever written was also socket code in VB6 | 20:04 |
| dogmatic69 | arggg... wtf is wrong with update manager | 20:05 |
| dogmatic69 | stuck on libpango1.0-common for 10 min now | 20:05 |
| AlanBell | bunch of AS/400 developers wanted to know more about TCP/IP so I picked up a book about the RPG language and knocked together a simple chat responder you could telnet to in RPG as a training app | 20:05 |
| Cepheus | CPython most likely supports more environments than the CLR, Jython has a huge memory overhead and slow startup time, and PyPy lacks wide platform support and stability. | 20:05 |
| AlanBell | they said they had never seen code that advanced before | 20:05 |
| HazRPG | dogmatic69: I had issues with apt-get update earlier, was taking forever | 20:06 |
| ali1234 | HazRPG: i hope it was 10+ years ago | 20:06 |
| HazRPG | AlanBell: heh same reason for my VB6 app | 20:06 |
| HazRPG | ali1234: I was 16, so even longer than that | 20:06 |
| ali1234 | well back then things were very different | 20:06 |
| HazRPG | ali1234: mainly because I had access to VB6, and downloading took forever on dialup to get anything else | 20:07 |
| ali1234 | if you want to write portable code today (ie windows/linux) then the only real choices you have are Qt and java, and in neither case will you ever have to worry about writing a makefile | 20:07 |
| HazRPG | ali1234: My max connection speed was 16kbps | 20:07 |
| HazRPG | ali1234: and that was if I was lucky! | 20:07 |
| * HazRPG mumbles about stupid government based firewalls | 20:08 | |
| AlanBell | ali1234: python/gtk works fine | 20:08 |
| Cepheus | I feel that while sockets are not a preferable way to program in modern days, understanding them is key to understanding network programming. | 20:08 |
| ali1234 | but gtk... sucks | 20:08 |
| HazRPG | ali1234: I'm planning a gaming engine... so Qt probably won't be the best way to go | 20:08 |
| ali1234 | python/qt works fine too | 20:08 |
| ali1234 | HazRPG: do not write a game engine | 20:09 |
| HazRPG | Cepheus: Agreed, my first socket code was for that reason. | 20:09 |
| ali1234 | there aer already enough game engines | 20:09 |
| dogmatic69 | rather build a cms :D | 20:09 |
| HazRPG | ali1234: Don't worry, its not fully from scratch :P | 20:09 |
| Cepheus | AlanBell: Distributing applications that are a mix of binary and script code is a bit iffy, especially with runtimes that don't come standard with OSX or Windows or are not widely installed on them, such as Python. | 20:11 |
| HazRPG | ali1234: I'm not that insane :P | 20:11 |
| HazRPG | ali1234: for rending I've already decided on using Ogre 3D | 20:11 |
| HazRPG | rendering* | 20:11 |
| ali1234 | yup, distributing python stuff on windows is a right pita | 20:12 |
| AlanBell | fair point, I tend not to have a distribution problem | 20:12 |
| Cepheus | same with Ruby and Perl | 20:12 |
| HazRPG | I never understood the craze behind Ruby | 20:13 |
| ali1234 | HazRPG: it's trendy | 20:13 |
| Cepheus | same reason behind the Apple craze, it's easy on the eye ;) | 20:14 |
| HazRPG | I learned it because I was obsessed with RPG Maker back in 2000, but that was my only motivation behind it | 20:14 |
| Cepheus | Ruby has a lot of odd behaviors though, such as implicit function calling | 20:14 |
| ali1234 | the idea behind all trendy languages can pretty much be summed up as "all the old languages suck, so if we just do everything differently than everything else, then we will be better" | 20:14 |
| HazRPG | ah wait, wasn't 2000 when they added Ruby to it, think it was more like 2003/04 | 20:15 |
| HazRPG | but still | 20:15 |
| HazRPG | ali1234: true... | 20:15 |
| hamitron | don't some of the new languages make it "easier" when using with less knowledge? | 20:16 |
| ali1234 | is that really easier though? | 20:16 |
| ali1234 | you can write bad code in any language | 20:17 |
| HazRPG | hamitron: I think they're designed to be easier - but some just lack great functionality when your trying to do specific tasks | 20:17 |
| AlanBell | yeah, but languages that make you do your own pointer arithmetic always seemed rather undignified to me | 20:17 |
| ali1234 | true enough, but languages without pointers have been around since at least basic | 20:17 |
| AlanBell | yup | 20:18 |
| HazRPG | I remember basic :) | 20:18 |
| ali1234 | so like 40 years | 20:18 |
| Cepheus | pointer work is a useful tool but it's easy to misuse or construct buggy code | 20:18 |
| ali1234 | i'd like to see you write a device driver without pointers | 20:18 |
| * AlanBell would not like to write a device driver | 20:19 | |
| HazRPG | AlanBell: agreed | 20:19 |
| Cepheus | Lisp is _very_ old and has no pointers at all | 20:19 |
| ali1234 | as such, it's lucky that C is not dead yet | 20:19 |
| Cepheus | I don't see C being replaced by anything for portable systems programming. | 20:20 |
| ali1234 | no one is even trying, because C pretty much got it perfect | 20:20 |
| hamitron | tbh, I find C easier than C++ :/ | 20:21 |
| ali1234 | that's because it *is* easier | 20:21 |
| hamitron | ah :) | 20:22 |
| HazRPG | hamitron: I find it really depends what your trying to do | 20:22 |
| hamitron | so why everyone use it? | 20:22 |
| hamitron | ;/ | 20:22 |
| Cepheus | C++ is sort of like C with an object-oriented model nailed to it | 20:22 |
| ali1234 | C++ is C with a bunch of extra rules to stop idiots writing broken code | 20:22 |
| HazRPG | although, can't really make that judgement since I haven't done an awful lot with C | 20:22 |
| HazRPG | Cepheus, ali1234: Yeah I agree with that. | 20:22 |
| ali1234 | it's essentially C for assembly line programming | 20:23 |
| Cepheus | most of the objective stuff feels like structs with scoping | 20:23 |
| ali1234 | by which i mean where lots of people with very little actual skill each bash out a bit of the code and then you pray it all hangs together at the end | 20:23 |
| ali1234 | this is the whole purpose of all OO languages btw | 20:23 |
| ali1234 | nobody *ever* uses it for code resuse | 20:24 |
| ali1234 | *reuse | 20:24 |
| HazRPG | ali1234: really? | 20:24 |
| HazRPG | ali1234: I do in my programming. | 20:24 |
| ali1234 | that's because you're the only programmer on your projects | 20:24 |
| ali1234 | i assume | 20:24 |
| HazRPG | ali1234: For most things, yeah you would be right | 20:25 |
| ali1234 | in large projects you hardly ever see code reuse, OO is used exclusively to stop other coders from misusing your objects | 20:25 |
| ali1234 | which ends up where all objects are completely opaque black boxes | 20:25 |
| ali1234 | which is fine when those objects actually work | 20:25 |
| hamitron | 1 thing worries me about the direction of things... | 20:26 |
| hamitron | there seems to be a focus on not using old methods | 20:26 |
| hamitron | like, opengl depreciating stuff | 20:26 |
| ali1234 | ok, in a slightly less hyperbolic explanation, C++ is C with extensions that allow the developer to make a contract about how the code is used | 20:26 |
| ali1234 | if there's only 1 developer, this is not very helpful | 20:27 |
| Azelphur | Anyone got opinions on bong/evaporative cooling? Apparently it's more efficient than water with a radiator :P | 20:27 |
| TheOpenSourcerer | All the Farnham (ish) dwellers. #Farnham #Twestival tickets are available http://t.co/FRlV0so | 20:27 |
| hamitron | the only sort bong I know.... | 20:27 |
| hamitron | ;) | 20:27 |
| hamitron | sorta* | 20:27 |
| Azelphur | haha | 20:27 |
| Azelphur | http://www.overclock.net/attachments/phase-change/79656d1217920494-budget-subambient-temperatures-bong-anyone-bong-.jpg science! | 20:27 |
| hamitron | imho Azelphur, if you need more than a heatsink, you are pushing silicon too far | 20:28 |
| ali1234 | right | 20:28 |
| Azelphur | hamitron: so I should underclock? :D | 20:28 |
| hamitron | maybe apply less thermal paste? | 20:28 |
| ali1234 | you should buy a CPU that does not catch fire with the stock cooler | 20:28 |
| HazRPG | hamitron: don't you mean more? | 20:28 |
| hamitron | use a massive copper heatsink | 20:29 |
| hamitron | no | 20:29 |
| hamitron | you want as little as possible | 20:29 |
| Azelphur | anyway I quite like the idea of doing some fun hackery and getting some overclocking going :D | 20:29 |
| Cepheus | large surface area, thinly spread | 20:29 |
| HazRPG | hamitron: I always thought you needed a nice thin layer over the whole surface | 20:29 |
| Cepheus | maximum heat transfer | 20:29 |
| hamitron | exactly | 20:29 |
| Azelphur | hamitron: I think I applied it correctly, I talked to an intel lady and she pretty much said my temps are close to normal | 20:30 |
| ali1234 | Azelphur: what happened to oil tank cooling? | 20:30 |
| hamitron | :D | 20:30 |
| Azelphur | ali1234: it's crap everyone decided | 20:30 |
| hamitron | then intel have overcooked it... literally | 20:30 |
| ali1234 | lolz, yeah | 20:30 |
| Azelphur | hamitron: apparently 85C is "normal" for my CPU | 20:30 |
| ali1234 | my CPU is 39 degrees on normal use, 60 degrees on max | 20:31 |
| HazRPG | Azelphur: I thought it was 75'C? | 20:31 |
| dutchie | hahaha | 20:31 |
| ali1234 | with stock cooler | 20:31 |
| Azelphur | ali1234: mine is 40 at idle, but goes up to 94 if I 100% all cores | 20:31 |
| hamitron | if you pour coffee on it, there will be a weird reaction, but still the wrong thing to do | 20:31 |
| hamitron | :/ | 20:31 |
| HazRPG | ali1234: I must say I've never gotten mine over 60'C either | 20:31 |
| dutchie | popey: you know how you tweeted about Win8 getting virtual desktops? | 20:31 |
| Azelphur | HazRPG: nah iirc intel said 85 under load | 20:31 |
| hamitron | I never got mine to 40 C :/ | 20:31 |
| hamitron | and I BOINC it all day and night | 20:31 |
| hamitron | ;) | 20:32 |
| Azelphur | anyway if I add decent cooling I can clock to 4 or 5ghz :D | 20:32 |
| dutchie | popey: just listening to LugRadio ep 2 all the way from 2004 and they made a joke about how MS invented them :) | 20:32 |
| Azelphur | and then I'll be like yayfun | 20:32 |
| hamitron | I wouldn't clock | 20:32 |
| hamitron | just chill | 20:32 |
| hamitron | :) | 20:32 |
| HazRPG | hamitron: That was me playing a game through Wine, rendering some 3D stuff at the same time that caused the temperature spike | 20:32 |
| Azelphur | clocking is fine as long as you keep the temps down | 20:32 |
| Azelphur | and I'd like to think once I add some decent cooling, it'll actually stay cooler than with the intel stock cooler | 20:32 |
| Azelphur | I'd like to aim for <70C under load | 20:33 |
| hamitron | Azelphur: turn off the central heating | 20:33 |
| hamitron | dedication my friend | 20:33 |
| hamitron | ;/ | 20:33 |
| ali1234 | yes, what's your ambient temp? | 20:33 |
| Azelphur | hamitron: shit don't work anyway so it doesn't matter if it's on/off :D | 20:33 |
| Azelphur | ali1234: 20-30C | 20:33 |
| hamitron | omfg | 20:33 |
| hamitron | how hot? | 20:33 |
| ali1234 | 30 degrees ambient is borderline heatstroke territory :) | 20:34 |
| Azelphur | ali1234: haha, in the summer my room goes to 35 | 20:34 |
| hamitron | it is 11 C in here atm | 20:34 |
| hamitron | :) | 20:34 |
| Azelphur | according to my clock, anyway | 20:34 |
| Azelphur | my clock that did temperature readouts died a while back, though :( | 20:34 |
| hamitron | you could just get air conditioning for your case | 20:35 |
| Azelphur | need to get a new one. | 20:35 |
| hamitron | I'm glad I decided not to get the i7 now | 20:35 |
| hamitron | :) | 20:35 |
| hamitron | will chill with an i3 | 20:35 |
| Azelphur | haha | 20:35 |
| hamitron | dual 3.2ghz is enough for me | 20:36 |
| hamitron | :) | 20:36 |
| Azelphur | hamitron: I bought this machine with the plan of aftermarket cooling and overclocking | 20:36 |
| Azelphur | it's what I wanted to do from the start | 20:36 |
| Azelphur | so I don't really see it as an issue :D | 20:36 |
| hamitron | suppose | 20:36 |
| Azelphur | so really it's a case of what the optimal cooling solution is :D | 20:36 |
| hamitron | I remmeber a while back, you showed some mini cooling things | 20:36 |
| hamitron | get one of them ;) | 20:37 |
| Azelphur | and then playing how much can I overclock | 20:37 |
| Azelphur | tec? | 20:37 |
| * hamitron shrugs | 20:37 | |
| Azelphur | that stuffs expensive :p | 20:37 |
| hamitron | ah :) | 20:37 |
| hamitron | we are the total opersite, I look for how to remove fans and cut costs ;/ | 20:37 |
| hamitron | you just blow things up | 20:38 |
| Azelphur | hamitron: haha, I spent 1.1k on this machine already, it's my baby :D | 20:38 |
| hamitron | :D | 20:38 |
| Azelphur | actually it's probably worth more than that because I used parts from my old computer | 20:38 |
| hamitron | :| | 20:38 |
| hamitron | I saw a good value all in one water cooling kit for 50 quid | 20:39 |
| Azelphur | haha | 20:39 |
| hamitron | would that not be ok? | 20:39 |
| Azelphur | TEC is actually cheaper than what I thought it was before :o | 20:39 |
| Azelphur | http://www.limitedgoods.com/itemView.php?ProdID=672127&source=FroogleUK&medium=free&campaign=FroogleUK_InStock o.O | 20:39 |
| hamitron | :) | 20:40 |
| hamitron | not something like this: http://www.limitedgoods.com/itemView.php?ProdID=658269 | 20:41 |
| hamitron | but for your socket ofc | 20:41 |
| hamitron | ;) | 20:41 |
| Azelphur | haha it's so tiny :D | 20:42 |
| Baikonur | that's what she said | 20:42 |
| hamitron | haha | 20:42 |
| Azelphur | lol | 20:42 |
| hamitron | Azelphur: I think you should get one of these: http://www.maplin.co.uk/plug-in-mains-power-and-energy-monitor-38343 | 20:45 |
| hamitron | and tell us the figures | 20:45 |
| hamitron | :) | 20:45 |
| Azelphur | haha | 20:46 |
| Azelphur | hamitron: I'd have to get a few, I have 4 power strips in my room | 20:46 |
| ali1234 | i have one of those | 20:46 |
| ali1234 | it says my computer uses 120W at full load | 20:46 |
| hamitron | hmmm | 20:46 |
| Azelphur | What I've always kinda wanted to do is some wind power into a UPS | 20:46 |
| hamitron | is that about right? | 20:47 |
| dogmatic69 | ffs | 20:47 |
| Azelphur | but I don't know how to, and my parents would have a fit if I even suggested it :P | 20:47 |
| dogmatic69 | how can i remove this... Unpacking replacement libpango1.0-common ... | 20:47 |
| ali1234 | Azelphur: you need a windmill, a dynamo, and a inverter | 20:47 |
| dogmatic69 | i cant install anything as it keeps getting stuck | 20:47 |
| ali1234 | you can buy them all at maplin | 20:47 |
| Azelphur | ali1234: how much? | 20:47 |
| hamitron | better to use solar power | 20:47 |
| ali1234 | depends how much power you want to generate | 20:47 |
| Azelphur | hamitron: I'm 5 miles away from the UK's largest wind farm, I figure my location is optimal for wind | 20:48 |
| dogmatic69 | solar is poor at making power | 20:48 |
| ali1234 | which reminds me, i was in JTF the other day and they had a petrol generator for £80 | 20:48 |
| Azelphur | ali1234: enough to power my room, lol | 20:48 |
| hamitron | solar is quieter ;/ | 20:48 |
| Azelphur | so quad monitor, my stupidly overclocked PC | 20:48 |
| Azelphur | and a few other bits | 20:48 |
| dogmatic69 | Azelphur: ive investigated wind power and for 2kw you need about 3m dia wind turbine | 20:48 |
| dogmatic69 | not very small | 20:49 |
| Azelphur | haha | 20:49 |
| Azelphur | indeed | 20:49 |
| ali1234 | 2.8kw too | 20:49 |
| Cepheus | solar isn't very redundant | 20:49 |
| Azelphur | I suppose technically I don't have to worry about it as my town is pretty much running off wind energy anyway | 20:49 |
| ali1234 | you'd need to spend probably 5 figures or more to get that from solar or window power | 20:49 |
| Azelphur | so I'm clean energy automagically | 20:49 |
| dogmatic69 | the circuitry is also very complicated. best one i have see is something that actually uses electro magnets to slow the blade down so it does not over rev, eg: spins faster == more current to the break | 20:50 |
| Azelphur | oh hey, it's the worlds biggest wind farm, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanet_Wind_Farm | 20:50 |
| Azelphur | yay my area wins at clean energy | 20:50 |
| HazRPG | dogmatic69: try grabbing from the ubuntu site | 20:50 |
| dogmatic69 | ? | 20:51 |
| hamitron | can keep your wind turbines, I'll take a coal power station ty | 20:51 |
| Azelphur | haha | 20:51 |
| dogmatic69 | lol | 20:51 |
| * dogmatic69 likes the fact that electric cars get power from coal stations | 20:51 | |
| Azelphur | xD | 20:51 |
| hamitron | yes, zero emisions baby! | 20:51 |
| hamitron | ;) | 20:51 |
| hamitron | although, don't we mostly have gas? | 20:52 |
| dogmatic69 | by 20something 10% of uk will be electric cars | 20:52 |
| ali1234 | 2099? | 20:52 |
| dogmatic69 | new nissan or something coming out for 25k after a 5k grant | 20:52 |
| hamitron | can you even get a decent electric car yet? | 20:52 |
| shauno | I've always been a big fan of nuclear. they've gotta give in and admit it's the way to go eventually | 20:52 |
| dogmatic69 | 2016 or something | 20:52 |
| ali1234 | nuclear cars, sounds like a winner | 20:53 |
| dogmatic69 | nuke is cool | 20:53 |
| dogmatic69 | lol | 20:53 |
| Azelphur | haha | 20:53 |
| ali1234 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Nucleon | 20:53 |
| shauno | sorry, we were talking about coal powered cars? | 20:53 |
| hamitron | I think they should increase the price of fuel and reduce the cars on the road | 20:53 |
| HazRPG | shauno: haha, would be interesting if they could get it to work | 20:53 |
| hamitron | ;) | 20:53 |
| shauno | HazRPG: I mean in general | 20:53 |
| Azelphur | "Someone crashed in London, it's gone now" | 20:53 |
| dogmatic69 | always funny reading stats on nuclear subs... range: unlimited | 20:53 |
| hamitron | haha | 20:53 |
| Azelphur | "We've announced a new capitol city, New London" | 20:53 |
| HazRPG | shauno: once the nuclear division starts, there's no stopping it | 20:53 |
| shauno | for regular power stations | 20:54 |
| hamitron | if we all drive nuclear cars, can we all drink red wine while driving? | 20:54 |
| HazRPG | shauno: I guess... but in a car how would it work exactly, since a car isn't exactly turned on all day long | 20:55 |
| shauno | HazRPG: I never said in a car. that's ali1234 being obtuse as usual | 20:55 |
| HazRPG | heh | 20:55 |
| HazRPG | my mistake | 20:55 |
| shauno | I dont' get why we're still milking gas & coal stations when we've got a perfectly good alternative | 20:55 |
| dogmatic69 | HazRPG: its not like you would run out of fuel if you left it running | 20:55 |
| hamitron | where do we put the waste? | 20:55 |
| Cepheus | hamitron is correct | 20:56 |
| hamitron | I always am? ;) | 20:56 |
| Cepheus | we also have a large infrastructure for coal and gas power already | 20:56 |
| HazRPG | dogmatic69: true.. | 20:56 |
| Cepheus | building nuclear reactors doesn't come free | 20:56 |
| dogmatic69 | shauno: because petrol giants like shell bp etc keep paying the alternative sources to shut up | 20:56 |
| ali1234 | mainly because everyone got really scared of anything involving the word "nuclear" during the cold war | 20:56 |
| HazRPG | hamitron: instead of fuel-pumps, we have fuel-dumps xD | 20:56 |
| dogmatic69 | lol | 20:57 |
| shauno | eh, they've been reprocessing fuel for years now | 20:57 |
| shauno | it doesn't all get buried under drigg anymore | 20:57 |
| hamitron | I think there is a lot of debate about if nuclear is actually cost effective. Each industry for each method likes to round figures in their own favour :/ | 20:57 |
| dogmatic69 | thing i dont understand is crude oil -> diesel is easier than crude oil -> petrol and petrol is cheaper | 20:57 |
| hamitron | diesel should be banned | 20:58 |
| hamitron | end of that ;/ | 20:58 |
| HazRPG | hamitron: might not be cost effective, but its not like its ever going to run out as quick - I think is the main argument about it | 20:58 |
| dogmatic69 | hamitron: you cant run tractors on petrol, not enough power | 20:59 |
| dogmatic69 | ~= no more food | 20:59 |
| ali1234 | petrol is cheaper by the gallon but but deisel has a higher energy density so you cannot directly compare prices | 20:59 |
| HazRPG | hamitron: nah, it shouldn't be banned, it should just be used for a different purpose - since we still get diesel as a by-product from crude oil anyways | 20:59 |
| shauno | sad thing is the UK used to have some of the most efficient nuclear plants going, but we lost the edge | 20:59 |
| hamitron | diesel should be banned from road cars I mean | 20:59 |
| hamitron | :) | 20:59 |
| ali1234 | it is | 20:59 |
| ali1234 | well, tax free deisel is | 21:00 |
| dogmatic69 | ali1234: good point, but that does not justify the cost... it should be manufacturing price + x% | 21:00 |
| HazRPG | I love how the discussions on here shift so quickly xD | 21:00 |
| hamitron | dangerous :/ | 21:00 |
| Cepheus | what's dangerous about diesel? | 21:00 |
| hamitron | the layer of it left on the road, sliperry when it rains | 21:01 |
| ali1234 | not much | 21:01 |
| ali1234 | that's not just deisel | 21:01 |
| HazRPG | I was just about to say | 21:01 |
| ali1234 | it's all the crap that comes out of all cars and vehicles | 21:01 |
| Cepheus | often engine oil | 21:01 |
| ali1234 | let's ban all vehicles \o/ | 21:01 |
| ali1234 | then the roads will be safe for everyone | 21:02 |
| HazRPG | ali1234: then we wouldn't even need roads! \o/ | 21:02 |
| hamitron | I would reduce the number of cars as well :) | 21:02 |
| ali1234 | yeah, then we wouldn't have to pay road tax to keep them repaired | 21:02 |
| ali1234 | sounds like a good idea to me | 21:02 |
| ali1234 | throwing the baby out with the bath water? nah | 21:03 |
| HazRPG | ali1234: best thing yet, never will the words "pot-holes causes havoc once again" on the news \o/ :D | 21:03 |
| ubuntuuk-planet | [Alan Lord] Packt Publishing Supports Open Source by $300,000 (So far) - http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2011/03/02/packt-publishing-supports-open-source-by-300000-so-far/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=packt-publishing-supports-open-source-by-300000-so-far | 21:03 |
| hamitron | but the very least we could do, is reduce the distances we move ourselves and everything | 21:03 |
| dsas | we don't pay "road tax" for roads. | 21:03 |
| HazRPG | dsas: those of us who have cars do :P | 21:04 |
| hamitron | and motorbikes ;/ | 21:04 |
| dsas | it's vehicle excise duty. It goes into general taxation, and road works are paid for out of general taxation (or via PFI) | 21:04 |
| dsas | (and depending on the road, out of council tax) | 21:05 |
| dsas | the money hasn't been reserved/earmarked for roads for about 70/80 years or so.... | 21:07 |
| dsas | uhm </pedantry> | 21:08 |
| hamitron | slows down traffic at least ;) | 21:09 |
| hamitron | a challange to get to your distination | 21:09 |
| hamitron | \o/ | 21:09 |
| hamitron | Road Rash pothole edition | 21:09 |
| dogmatic69 | hamitron: telecommuting ftw | 21:09 |
| HazRPG | dsas: heh, this is true | 21:16 |
| HazRPG | hamitron: roflysst xD | 21:16 |
| Azelphur | Anyone know much about wifi range extending? | 21:26 |
| Azelphur | I want it to be seamless so not requiring you connect to another router or have a connection drop | 21:26 |
| HazRPG | Azelphur: get a bigger 'tenna | 21:26 |
| Azelphur | haha | 21:26 |
| Azelphur | HazRPG: find me an antenna that'll go through a huge dividing wall into my houses extension | 21:27 |
| Azelphur | nothing gets out there, it even messes up mobile phone signal | 21:27 |
| Azelphur | passage, into the kitchen, enjoy your 0 bars signal :P | 21:27 |
| Azelphur | 5 bars when you step out of the kitchen lol | 21:28 |
| MartijnVdS | Azelphur: I have full signal all around my house | 21:30 |
| MartijnVdS | Azelphur: but when I walk from my front door to my back door (or back) while making a call, it will drop | 21:30 |
| Azelphur | MartijnVdS: you don't live in a 3 story victorian building :D | 21:30 |
| Azelphur | hehe | 21:30 |
| MartijnVdS | Azelphur: I live on the 7th floor :) | 21:30 |
| Azelphur | yea but you don't provide wifi for the other 6 floors | 21:31 |
| Azelphur | I do :p | 21:31 |
| MartijnVdS | Azelphur: ah, I'm talking about 2G/3G signal | 21:31 |
| Azelphur | ah | 21:31 |
| Azelphur | hehe | 21:31 |
| Azelphur | but yea wifi wise I'm in a 3 story house and there are 2 attics a cellar and an extension | 21:31 |
| Azelphur | so I totally need some range extension :) | 21:32 |
| MartijnVdS | Azelphur: nah, you need multiple APs and some wire to them | 21:32 |
| Azelphur | yea that's what I've been doing, and setting all the SSIDs to the same name | 21:32 |
| MartijnVdS | Azelphur: 802.11n concurrent dualband linked with gbit ;) | 21:32 |
| Azelphur | but the connection drops when you switch, and my brothers dumb windows laptop always picks the router with the lowest signal so he rages at me | 21:32 |
| MartijnVdS | Azelphur: are they in routing mode? set them to "bridge" (access point) mode | 21:33 |
| MartijnVdS | Azelphur: or don't use the WAN port for uplinking (except on the one that's connected to The World :) | 21:33 |
| ali1234 | nooooooooooooooooooooooo | 21:33 |
| Azelphur | that's a lot of o's | 21:33 |
| MartijnVdS | ali1234: NAT on NAT is worse than not using the WAN port | 21:34 |
| Azelphur | that's how I have it wired atm, one main router, and all the other routers are just networked into eachother | 21:34 |
| ali1234 | what channels are you using? | 21:34 |
| Azelphur | 1 6 and 11 | 21:35 |
| Azelphur | MartijnVdS: so the wan ports on the secondary routers are empty :P | 21:35 |
| MartijnVdS | if you're using N, the channels are wider.. I have my Fritz!box autochannel \o/ | 21:35 |
| ali1234 | ensure that the laptop is actually capable of using all those channels | 21:35 |
| MartijnVdS | ali1234: 1,6,11 are always usable.. 12/13/14 might be meh | 21:35 |
| MartijnVdS | ali1234: also the "A" channels (5GHz) | 21:36 |
| ali1234 | that doesn't mean they will actually work | 21:36 |
| Cepheus | I can get a wifi signal in the garage in the bottom of my garden, though the fact that the room the modem is in has the largest patio door I've ever seen pointing in that direction probably helps | 21:36 |
| MartijnVdS | ali1234: I've never had a device that worked on some channels but not others (except 12/13) | 21:36 |
| Azelphur | MartijnVdS: the main router has N but the secondary ones don't | 21:36 |
| ali1234 | plenty of cards have broken drivers that will just refuse to work on a certain channel | 21:36 |
| Azelphur | maybe I should invest in some cheap dd-wrt capable routers that can do N and bridging? | 21:36 |
| hamitron | I'd just tell your brother real men use wires | 21:36 |
| hamitron | ;/ | 21:36 |
| MartijnVdS | Azelphur: that might be the cause of droppage.. what happens when you set the main one to B+G | 21:36 |
| ali1234 | so i would shuffle the channels around | 21:37 |
| ali1234 | or failing that the routers | 21:37 |
| ali1234 | so he is nearest the one that actually works with his laptop | 21:37 |
| Azelphur | lol | 21:38 |
| ali1234 | bridging won't help you in any way | 21:38 |
| Azelphur | won't it? | 21:38 |
| ali1234 | wireless bridging that is | 21:38 |
| Azelphur | as I said I don't like dropping when walking through the house | 21:38 |
| ali1234 | you are already bridging the Aps with the wired network | 21:38 |
| ali1234 | bridging does not solve that problem | 21:39 |
| ali1234 | if you have roaming configured as you say, you should not drop | 21:39 |
| Azelphur | I see | 21:40 |
| Azelphur | all I have is everything on the same SSID, different channels | 21:40 |
| Azelphur | and all the routers are basically switches connected to the main one | 21:40 |
| Azelphur | and the WAN ports are empty, apart from the main one | 21:40 |
| popey | http://podcast.ubuntu-uk.org/2011/03/02/s04e01-new-frontier/ | 21:43 |
| exobuzz | nice! been waiting for that :) | 21:52 |
| === cbx333 is now known as cbx33 | ||
| bigcalm | Christ on a bike! | 22:01 |
| popey | hmm? | 22:01 |
| === Lcawte|Away is now known as Lcawte | ||
| bigcalm | Tweet about going up to Edinburgh and instantly get followed by 2 users. Now waiting for the spam | 22:02 |
| ubuntuuk-planet | [Ubuntu UK Podcast] S04E01 New Frontier - http://podcast.ubuntu-uk.org/2011/03/02/s04e01-new-frontier/ | 22:03 |
| === richard is now known as Guest98486 | ||
| dogmatic69 | could someone help me with making an alias / bash method to run a few commands | 22:27 |
| dogmatic69 | want to delete some files, then run a command and delete more files | 22:27 |
| AlanBell | dogmatic69: you can put a sequence of commands in a text file, call it something .sh and make it executable and that should about do it | 22:34 |
| dogmatic69 | rly | 22:34 |
| dogmatic69 | let me try | 22:34 |
| dogmatic69 | one per line? | 22:34 |
| mgdm | make the top line look like this: | 22:34 |
| mgdm | #!/bin/bash | 22:35 |
| dogmatic69 | ye | 22:35 |
| mgdm | then you're good to go :) | 22:35 |
| dogmatic69 | one command per line then? | 22:35 |
| mgdm | yeah | 22:35 |
| dogmatic69 | hows this? http://bin.cakephp.org/view/229121539 | 22:40 |
| dogmatic69 | it works, am i doing something bad? | 22:40 |
| dogmatic69 | getting sick of broken updates | 22:40 |
| AlanBell | dogmatic69: not sure I would automate that | 22:41 |
| dogmatic69 | its such a pain to do all the time | 22:41 |
| dogmatic69 | happens once a week atleast | 22:41 |
| AlanBell | not for me | 22:41 |
| dogmatic69 | for me it does | 22:41 |
| dogmatic69 | now its getting stuck on libpango1.0-common | 22:42 |
| dogmatic69 | before my cpu was overclocked and popey somehow put 1 + 1 together and i un-overclocked it, worked for few weeks | 22:43 |
| popey | eek | 22:43 |
| dogmatic69 | now starting again with this | 22:43 |
| popey | i wouldn't do that | 22:43 |
| dogmatic69 | hehe | 22:43 |
| mgdm | I wouldn't do that either... | 22:44 |
| popey | that lock files exists for a reason | 22:44 |
| popey | diagnose that first | 22:44 |
| dogmatic69 | me: update never works. popey: are you overclocked? me: o.o | 22:44 |
| popey | also figure out at the time when updates fail | 22:44 |
| popey | i have overclocked my desktop before | 22:44 |
| popey | not at the moment | 22:44 |
| dogmatic69 | popey: it happens at the time i type apt-get upgrade :/ | 22:44 |
| popey | dont type that then | 22:44 |
| popey | :D | 22:44 |
| dogmatic69 | lol | 22:44 |
| popey | seriously, dont | 22:45 |
| dogmatic69 | well i really want to type apt-get install uuid-dev | 22:45 |
| popey | right, so you have an overclocked machine? | 22:45 |
| dogmatic69 | *did*, was months back | 22:45 |
| popey | ok, so now, does it error/ | 22:45 |
| popey | ? | 22:45 |
| dogmatic69 | yes | 22:45 |
| dogmatic69 | started again | 22:45 |
| popey | right, 1) dont do sudo apt-get upgrade | 22:45 |
| popey | do sudo apt-get dist-upgrade | 22:45 |
| popey | 2) post your /etc/apt/sources.list | 22:45 |
| dogmatic69 | intel quad core, q8200 8gigs ram x64 10.10 etc | 22:46 |
| popey | (and any files in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/ | 22:46 |
| popey | pastebin them | 22:46 |
| dogmatic69 | borked: http://bin.cakephp.org/view/430651202 | 22:47 |
| dogmatic69 | and now everything is locked :/ | 22:47 |
| popey | ok, dont do anything | 22:48 |
| dogmatic69 | http://bin.cakephp.org/view/1267092422 | 22:48 |
| dogmatic69 | file list | 22:48 |
| popey | wait one moment | 22:49 |
| dogmatic69 | source.list http://bin.cakephp.org/view/1874429059 | 22:49 |
| dogmatic69 | np | 22:49 |
| popey | dogmatic69: how much disk space do you have? | 22:51 |
| popey | df -h ? | 22:51 |
| dogmatic69 | /dev/sda1 895G 98G 752G 12% / | 22:52 |
| popey | :) | 22:53 |
| dogmatic69 | few spare meg's there | 22:53 |
| popey | just a bit | 22:54 |
| popey | can you pastebin /var/log/dpkg.log ? | 22:54 |
| dogmatic69 | i thought i had a 500gig... oh well | 22:54 |
| popey | also | 22:54 |
| popey | is the terminal still sat there? | 22:54 |
| popey | you havent killed it? | 22:54 |
| dogmatic69 | killed it :/ | 22:54 |
| popey | bah | 22:54 |
| dogmatic69 | can run it again | 22:54 |
| popey | run sudo apt-get dist-upgrade | 22:55 |
| dogmatic69 | got my quick bash to fix it | 22:55 |
| popey | I didnt say kill it :) | 22:55 |
| dogmatic69 | ok, run it again | 22:56 |
| popey | in another terminal, run top | 22:56 |
| dogmatic69 | does this... http://bin.cakephp.org/view/430651202 | 22:56 |
| popey | see whats eating the box | 22:56 |
| dogmatic69 | just sitting there | 22:56 |
| dogmatic69 | o.o | 22:56 |
| dogmatic69 | nothing eats this box :D | 22:56 |
| popey | ok, leave it running | 22:56 |
| * popey has a command that would eat it :) | 22:56 | |
| popey | 10 times over | 22:56 |
| dogmatic69 | please show me | 22:56 |
| popey | no :) | 22:56 |
| popey | I'd get kicked from the channel :) | 22:56 |
| dogmatic69 | aw | 22:57 |
| popey | can you open a terminal | 22:57 |
| dogmatic69 | pm | 22:57 |
| popey | and run top | 22:57 |
| popey | see whats at the top | 22:57 |
| dogmatic69 | *htop | 22:57 |
| popey | or that | 22:57 |
| dogmatic69 | colors :) | 22:57 |
| popey | heh | 22:57 |
| popey | pretty! | 22:57 |
| dogmatic69 | google chrome is 4% ram, highest | 22:57 |
| popey | can you run top, not htop | 22:57 |
| popey | then press q | 22:58 |
| popey | then highlight it all and pastebin | 22:58 |
| dogmatic69 | oooh.. just remebered i installed some pastebin app | 22:58 |
| dogmatic69 | can pipe stuff to pastebin some how | 22:58 |
| popey | pastebinit | 22:58 |
| dogmatic69 | thats it | 22:58 |
| popey | yeah, but for now, just clicky click | 22:58 |
| dogmatic69 | hehe | 22:59 |
| dogmatic69 | http://bin.cakephp.org/view/690441333 | 22:59 |
| popey | ta | 22:59 |
| dogmatic69 | filling cakephp's bin with ubuntu | 22:59 |
| popey | uh | 22:59 |
| popey | what on earth you running on that | 22:59 |
| popey | load avergae of 5 | 22:59 |
| dogmatic69 | lol | 23:00 |
| dutchie | it could be a 5 core machine | 23:00 |
| dogmatic69 | 4 core | 23:00 |
| popey | doesnt matter | 23:00 |
| popey | its still loaded | 23:00 |
| dutchie | true | 23:00 |
| dogmatic69 | popey: i have loads open | 23:00 |
| dutchie | i was thinking the other direction | 23:00 |
| popey | 24GB SWAP!? | 23:00 |
| popey | you running SAP? | 23:00 |
| dogmatic69 | :D | 23:00 |
| dogmatic69 | that is ubuntu installer -> next -> next -> next -> kthnksbye | 23:01 |
| mgdm | D: | 23:01 |
| popey | dogmatic69: ps aux | pastebinit | 23:01 |
| dogmatic69 | swap is *never* even used | 23:01 |
| popey | well, yeah, with 8GB, I'd imagine not much :) | 23:01 |
| popey | big fat gaping space on disk :) | 23:02 |
| dogmatic69 | popey: you mean the 800gigs? | 23:02 |
| * dogmatic69 has pastebinit at work :/ | 23:02 | |
| dogmatic69 | http://bin.cakephp.org/view/439421098 | 23:03 |
| dogmatic69 | 400 tabs in chrome, cherokee, mysql, postgres cgi ... it all adds up | 23:03 |
| dogmatic69 | and firebloat | 23:03 |
| dogmatic69 | things still snappy though | 23:03 |
| popey | i see lots of dpkg there | 23:04 |
| popey | right, do this | 23:04 |
| popey | sudo killall dpkg | 23:04 |
| popey | sudo apt-get dist-upgrade | 23:04 |
| popey | thats quite a monster you have there :) | 23:05 |
| HazRPG | 24GB swap!! | 23:05 |
| dogmatic69 | E: Could not get lock /var/lib/dpkg/lock - open (11: Resource temporarily unavailable) | 23:05 |
| HazRPG | >_< | 23:05 |
| dogmatic69 | HazRPG: thank ubuntu's installer... i loled when i saw it too | 23:05 |
| popey | sudo rm /var/lib/dpkg/lock | 23:06 |
| popey | ps aux | grep dpkg | 23:06 |
| popey | make sure none running | 23:06 |
| dogmatic69 | should i kill that terminal now | 23:06 |
| popey | oh, yes, sorry | 23:06 |
| popey | :) | 23:06 |
| HazRPG | dogmatic69: heh, that's why I always set the partitions up manually - I prefer my choices to an automagic one any day | 23:06 |
| popey | we have boxes at work with 32GB SWAP | 23:06 |
| popey | 20GB is the min required for SAP | 23:06 |
| dogmatic69 | HazRPG: first time just about when i built this one | 23:06 |
| ali1234 | i have 32GB swap | 23:07 |
| dogmatic69 | how much ram? | 23:07 |
| ali1234 | not sure why tho, the computer basically locks hard as soon as anything tries to use any large amount of it | 23:07 |
| ali1234 | 4GB | 23:07 |
| HazRPG | popey: well I can understand if it has SAP though | 23:07 |
| dogmatic69 | popey: ps aux | grep dpkg spits out loads of stuff | 23:07 |
| popey | dogmatic69: even after sudo killall dpkg | 23:07 |
| popey | ? | 23:07 |
| mgdm | I used to do the 2x RAM for swap thing, but nowadays I just have about the same amount as I have RAM - not that it ever gets used unless I'm using Eclipse. :) | 23:07 |
| dogmatic69 | popey: yip | 23:08 |
| popey | ps aux | grep dpkg | 23:08 |
| popey | pastebin pls | 23:08 |
| dogmatic69 | its not pretty http://bin.cakephp.org/view/1128273544 | 23:08 |
| HazRPG | mgdm: heh, I only ever did the 2xRAM thing back when I had only < 2GB RAM | 23:08 |
| mgdm | aye | 23:08 |
| mgdm | worked well back in 64MB RAM days ;) | 23:09 |
| HazRPG | but with 6GB of RAM, I thought having 12GB swap would be insane | 23:09 |
| ali1234 | i discovered that if you use imagemagick to resize images downwards, it uses 2.5x the size of the uncompressed input image in memory | 23:09 |
| dogmatic69 | HazRPG: i think with 8gigs, i could get away with 1byte of swap | 23:09 |
| popey | dogmatic69: sudo kill -9 3883 5225 9052 9601 10010 | 23:09 |
| HazRPG | dogmatic69: you'd be surprised what still uses swap even when you have lots of RAM ;) | 23:09 |
| popey | yeah | 23:09 |
| popey | oracle | 23:09 |
| popey | sap | 23:09 |
| ali1234 | everything does | 23:09 |
| popey | java | 23:09 |
| ali1234 | because linux will swap out inactive ram to use it for disk cache | 23:10 |
| dogmatic69 | popey: still the same output for the grep | 23:10 |
| popey | reboot | 23:10 |
| dogmatic69 | :/ | 23:10 |
| HazRPG | ali1234: hehe, I'm no linux guru, but that's one thing I definitely know about :) | 23:10 |
| * hamitron has no swap | 23:11 | |
| HazRPG | hamitron: :o | 23:11 |
| * dogmatic69 wants ssd... hate waiting for reboot | 23:11 | |
| dogmatic69 | brb | 23:11 |
| hamitron | 2gb ram is plenty on a machine that does nothing imo | 23:11 |
| HazRPG | hmm, question: Is restarting X != full reboot? | 23:11 |
| mgdm | indeed | 23:11 |
| hamitron | no | 23:11 |
| mgdm | X is just the graphical bit - it sits atop the system in a way not disimilar to Win3.1 on DOS | 23:12 |
| HazRPG | well I knew it was the graphical part that sat on top, but I always thought it would kill the graphical apps that were sat running too | 23:14 |
| mgdm | it will | 23:14 |
| ali1234 | it does | 23:14 |
| hamitron | not always | 23:14 |
| shauno | it does. but just the graphical apps. the OS itself doesn't really care if X comes or goes | 23:15 |
| ali1234 | always | 23:15 |
| hamitron | I had a screwed firefox not close | 23:15 |
| ali1234 | unless they have gone zombie | 23:15 |
| hamitron | :/ | 23:15 |
| hamitron | yeh | 23:15 |
| ali1234 | yeah firefox loves to do that | 23:15 |
| hamitron | tbh, the speed of ubuntu statup, a full restart is no problem these days :) | 23:15 |
| hamitron | startup* | 23:15 |
| HazRPG | this is true | 23:16 |
| shauno | I'm surprised anyone still uses firefox :/ it's kinda lost the vigor of youth | 23:16 |
| popey | extensions seems to be the common reason | 23:16 |
| ali1234 | chromium lacks so much stuff it is unusable | 23:16 |
| HazRPG | I've reduced my grub to 1s delay, since I'm usually going to press a key if I was going to pick something anyways | 23:17 |
| ali1234 | like an ad blocker that actually works | 23:17 |
| hamitron | firefox uses less ram ;) | 23:17 |
| dutchie | pfff | 23:17 |
| ali1234 | live bookmarks | 23:17 |
| dutchie | i have a mental ad blocker | 23:17 |
| ali1234 | and a sensible UI | 23:17 |
| hamitron | and firefox is a nicer name | 23:17 |
| hamitron | chromium is just... | 23:17 |
| dutchie | i switched to chrome because it had a prettier logo | 23:18 |
| HazRPG | chromium is always going to be unstable though - that's the whole point of that project | 23:18 |
| HazRPG | its basically just code that gets added in as and when | 23:18 |
| hamitron | dutchie: I'll give you the logo bit ;) | 23:18 |
| ali1234 | don't care about that | 23:18 |
| HazRPG | which is why iron and chrome are better, since it's essentially the stable section of the codebase | 23:19 |
| HazRPG | I'll give you that extensions is really really lacking | 23:19 |
| dogmatic69 | o/ | 23:19 |
| dogmatic69 | popey: now grep only has | 23:19 |
| dogmatic69 | 1000 3528 0.0 0.0 8956 876 pts/0 S+ 23:18 0:00 grep --color=auto dpkg | 23:19 |
| dutchie | i find chrome perfectly usable | 23:19 |
| dutchie | fwiw | 23:19 |
| ali1234 | i do not appreciate having to wade through the youtube homepage to find new subscription videos | 23:20 |
| ali1234 | or google reader either for that matter, it is no better | 23:20 |
| HazRPG | dutchie: same :) | 23:20 |
| shauno | I just find firefox is quickly going the same way as seamonkey. the fresh start from mozilla seems to have taken all the same design choices and ended up in the same place | 23:21 |
| ali1234 | yes | 23:21 |
| dutchie | maybe FF4 will change all that | 23:21 |
| dutchie | and FF5, 6 and 7 by the end of the year or whatever | 23:21 |
| HazRPG | FF4 is shaping along nicely, I must admit | 23:21 |
| dogmatic69 | be running ff20 by December | 23:22 |
| shauno | I might try 4 some time, see if it can manage a 12hr shift without eating over half my machine's ram | 23:22 |
| popey | dogmatic69: sudo apt-get dist-upgrade | 23:22 |
| dogmatic69 | popey: moans about sudo dpkg --configure -a | 23:23 |
| popey | do that | 23:23 |
| HazRPG | shauno: one thing I think is still a shame about FF4, is that it still hasn't got into its skull that separate processes is a better idea :/ | 23:23 |
| dogmatic69 | popey: \o/ think its running now | 23:23 |
| dogmatic69 | not stuck at the other place atleast | 23:24 |
| popey | good good | 23:24 |
| dogmatic69 | thanks :) | 23:24 |
| HazRPG | I think plugins work better in FF4 though, when something is dying out, it kills that... but I don't think tabs do yet | 23:24 |
| popey | np | 23:24 |
| dogmatic69 | popey: i think the problem is from 'sleep' mode | 23:24 |
| shauno | HazRPG: in theory, they shouldn't be. MDI has never needed to do that. | 23:24 |
| popey | dogmatic69: could well be | 23:25 |
| shauno | all this mess with trying to stick each tab in it's own process, all anyone actually hopes to do with it is contain flash crashes better | 23:25 |
| ali1234 | yup | 23:25 |
| dogmatic69 | often its bombs out when going into sleep mode or coming out of it | 23:25 |
| HazRPG | shauno: and java, and javascript? | 23:25 |
| ali1234 | javascript rarely causes browser crashes | 23:26 |
| ali1234 | java is quite bad | 23:26 |
| ali1234 | basically plugins are bad | 23:26 |
| ali1234 | it should be running only plugins in a different process | 23:27 |
| HazRPG | ali1234: guessing you've never accidentally gone on a site where javascript attempts to have an alertbox open and you've just had to kill the whole browser before | 23:27 |
| ali1234 | yes well, that's a not a crash | 23:28 |
| HazRPG | true, but I have seen javascript do some wacky stuff before (even on sane sites like gmail) | 23:29 |
| shauno | I've got bigger beef with ff than process containment. I crash it 3 times a day at work, like clockwork. | 23:30 |
| HazRPG | I agree that plugins should be treated as independent, along with custom created scripts (addons, extensions, etc) | 23:30 |
| HazRPG | shauno: memory overload :( | 23:31 |
| HazRPG | shauno: that kills me the most too | 23:31 |
| shauno | HazRPG: nah. it doesn't like being on the non-primary screen when XP's screensaver kicks in | 23:31 |
| HazRPG | I've managed to see firefox take up 2GB of RAM before and was soooooo sluggish! I only had 2 tabs open at the time too | 23:31 |
| shauno | I can't change the screensaver timeout at work, so it crashes at breakfast, lunch, and my afternoon break. | 23:32 |
| HazRPG | shauno: really? I've never seen that before | 23:32 |
| shauno | no? I've done it consistently since 2.0 | 23:33 |
| HazRPG | shauno: see I've had my whole RAM been eaten up since 2.0 | 23:33 |
| HazRPG | being* | 23:33 |
| HazRPG | 1.x was slow... but was a damn-sight better than 2.x | 23:34 |
| shauno | haven't been able to replicate it on mac or linux, but on xp, it seems to hate resolution changes & the screensaver. but only when it's sat on screen 3 | 23:34 |
| HazRPG | shauno: ah, I've never had 3 screens - 2 max | 23:34 |
| HazRPG | guessing they didn't factor in for >3 screen users | 23:35 |
| shauno | grumpy today :) | 23:40 |
| HazRPG | shauno: you? me? | 23:40 |
| shauno | me | 23:41 |
| HazRPG | heh, thought it was a bit of both really ^^ | 23:42 |
| shauno | I think being woken up by the bank being idiots really did ruin the entire day | 23:43 |
| HazRPG | I got woken up by some guy trying to sell me doors, and after I'd managed to get to sleep... an automated phone call to tell me my sister's stuff had been sent T_T | 23:47 |
| HazRPG | I don't mind being woken up once, but doing it twice or more in a row... is just frustrating | 23:47 |
| HazRPG | shauno: so I feel for you, know your pain | 23:48 |
| HazRPG | shauno: what happened with the bank exactly? | 23:48 |
| * HazRPG imagines a scenario where they were saying "hello mr shauno, can we just ask you a few details ... <detail section> ... right we've just blocked such and such because you don't deal with such and such ... so now we've blocked... and your screwed... haha... goodbike!" | 23:50 | |
| shauno | hah, not far off | 23:50 |
| shauno | they cut our cards off because a transaction showed up in another country the same day as we used them in this one | 23:51 |
| HazRPG | I get it all the time :/ bunch of so and so's that they are | 23:51 |
| HazRPG | shauno: ouch | 23:51 |
| HazRPG | shauno: ironically, I get that a fair bit when trading with international sites | 23:52 |
| shauno | they usually freak out every time the mrs goes back to the US. this time they did it a week after she came back :/ | 23:52 |
| HazRPG | heh | 23:52 |
| HazRPG | shauno: do what I do... ring up before leaving and notify them of days she'll be away, and tell them you'll still be where you are | 23:53 |
| HazRPG | that way they don't just insta-ban | 23:53 |
| HazRPG | shauno: one thing I like about HSBC internet banking, you can send them a message notifying them of your travel details, so that they don't screw with you while your away | 23:54 |
| HazRPG | I learned that one from my travels to the philippines | 23:54 |
| HazRPG | I used the card here in the UK, to get a book and some food while waiting for the plane... when I got there, I used their machine to get some local currency out | 23:55 |
| HazRPG | well, it made me look stupid at the airport being at an ATM machine with a phone call from my bank... | 23:55 |
| dogmatic69 | any recommendations for a screen recorder | 23:56 |
| HazRPG | which cost me ~£10 :/ | 23:56 |
| dogmatic69 | HazRPG: barclays has a thing online to put dates and places you are going | 23:57 |
| HazRPG | dogmatic69: I prefer the HSBC way, since you can outline your travel arrangements better | 23:57 |
| shauno | HazRPG: I did the standing around looking stupid thing first time I tried to use a chip & pin card in the real word. I only got a card to use online, so had no idea what the pin was | 23:58 |
| * dogmatic69 wanted a hsbc account | 23:58 | |
| HazRPG | dogmatic69: I mean in shauno's case, he's still at home while his mrs is away to the states | 23:58 |
| dogmatic69 | ye | 23:58 |
| HazRPG | dogmatic69: I think I got a reply within an hr or sending it too to confirm that it was on record :) | 23:59 |
| HazRPG | s/or/of | 23:59 |
| dogmatic69 | nice | 23:59 |
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