[02:39] is there any further support planned for the mobility HD5470 in the near future? === dendrobates is now known as dendro-afk === dendro-afk is now known as dendrobates === Amaranth_ is now known as Amaranth === _LibertyZero is now known as LibertyZero === Claudinux_ is now known as Claudinux === Fjodor_ is now known as Fjodor === hanska is now known as dapal === tkamppeter__ is now known as tkamppeter [11:35] trying to install natty alpha 3 and overwrite partitions, partman says refusing to create as its mounted, umount says cant umount: invalid argument. this a known bug? [12:06] how do you remove a ppa when ppa-purge doesn't work? [12:06] nm === darkdevil_ is now known as dArKd3ViL === lionel__ is now known as lionel === dendrobates is now known as dendro-afk === dendro-afk is now known as dendrobates === doko_ is now known as doko === jtechidna is now known as JontheEchidna === dendrobates is now known as dendro-afk [15:50] how long does it take for users to get upgrades visible when changing a package in a PPA? [16:12] aroman: usually as soon as the binary packages are published [16:12] Ampelbein: I actually figured out why it wasn't showing; i published it to Lucid and I'm on maverick :/ [16:12] is there any better way of adding that to maverick too other than repacking/uploading? [16:13] aroman: you can use the copy packages feature in the ppa [16:13] oh wow [16:13] yeah that's exactly what I want, thanks :P [16:29] I've been trying to change a few things in ubiquity and I was wondering how I can change the text of the english language for the install? I'm helping with an ubuntu derivitive and we'd like it to say Thank you for installing X in stead of Ubuntu at the end of the install in the box that asks you to reboot. I found the file in source, debian/ubiquity.templates. but how would I go about replacing the default? [16:30] That's not really on topic here since this channel is about development of Ubuntu. You might have more luck, in any case, in #ubuntu-installer. [16:31] Thanks, didn't know about that channel [16:31] Just figured this would be better than #ubuntu === dendro-afk is now known as dendrobates [17:45] Hi, this question may not be appropriate for the development team, but I am not getting much support from the help channel. [17:45] I am trying to boot an old install of 10.4, but it is segfaulting on init in ld-2.11.1.so [17:45] how can i modify the init to use the latest version of this .so [17:45] ? [17:47] hello [17:48] can someone explain why the fuck zeitgeist is automatically installed and enabled on ubuntu karmic + ? [17:48] its an invasion of privacy [17:48] !ohmy [17:48] Please remember that all Ubuntu IRC channels share the same attitude of providing friendly and polite interaction with all users of all ages and cultures. Basically, this means no foul language and no abuse towards others. [17:49] XiX, how is it an invasion of privacy [17:49] ur info is not being sent anywhere [17:49] im offended that a desktop activity logging program would be automatically installed [17:49] it is used by other applications to provde you with better experience [17:49] and active [17:49] then deinstall it [17:49] u do want better search results dont you [17:49] i did, but im pretty sure most typical ubuntu users dont even know it exists [17:50] how is it invading privacy [17:50] i mean firefox logs your history [17:50] and pidgin stores your password in a plain text file [17:50] zeitgeist logs activities to make menus more adaptive [17:50] etc. [17:50] and this info is not sent out anywhere [17:50] *Rejection of Zeitgeist by GNOME. from Wikipedia: “Zeitgeist is a service which logs the users’s activities and events, anywhere from files opened to websites visited and conversations[. [17:50] how is it NOT an invasion of privacy? [17:51] because its not sending it anywhere [17:51] its for your own usage [17:51] nobody knows about your zeitgeist logging [17:51] its for oyur computer only [17:51] just like firefox history [17:51] firefox atleast gives you the option to delete history [17:51] so does zeitgeist [17:51] sure [17:52] lets just open up bash [17:52] and shred activity.sqlite [17:52] or use GNOME Activity Journal [17:52] XiX: rm ~/.local/share/zeitgeist/activity.sqlite [17:52] and delete stuff you dont want other to see [17:52] :) [17:52] XiX: even stock gnome logs your recently opened files [17:53] i am aware manish, and you should know rm doesnt delete data effectively [17:53] in recently_used.xbel I think [17:53] and windows also [17:53] and bash also [17:53] in .bash_history [17:53] XiX zeitgeist basically gets most of its info at the moment form gtk.recentlyused [17:53] ok [17:53] yes [17:53] we just store them in a more convinient way [17:53] i think typical users would be OK with those histories [17:53] but given the option [17:53] how many users would accept [17:53] there is a fine line between privacy and usability, confusion is bound to happen [17:54] zeitgeist logging activities, events, files opened, websites viewed, and conversations [17:54] if there is no logging or history remembering then it makes your experience of desktop even worse [17:54] websites opened logging is not enabled by defauly [17:54] XiX look at how many ppl like using docky + zeitgeist [17:54] XiX: that browser plugin is not even in ubuntu till Maverick [17:55] XiX, you need to allow firefox to send info to zeitgeist [17:55] conversations are also not logged [17:55] till now [17:55] you need plugins which need to be installed explicitly [17:55] and thats getting better how? [17:55] XiX: what getting better how? context? [17:55] <m4n1sh> XiX: that browser plugin is not even in ubuntu till Maverick [17:55] it is not packaged in ubuntu till maverick [17:56] it is there in natty and onwards [17:56] so there is no chance that it can be enabled by defaulty [17:56] u need to install the plugin urself for the logging to happen [17:56] and it is not enabled by default [17:56] out of box logging is very minimal [17:56] the only thing enabled by default is logging ur "gtk.recentlyused" [17:56] only those which are already logged by gtk.recentlyused [17:56] which is done by gtk anyhow [17:56] same thing seiflotfy_ :) [17:57] we just avoid overwriting info [17:57] yeah [17:57] lol [17:57] ok [17:57] so i am in activity.sqlite [17:57] correct [17:57] yes [17:57] yeah [17:57] why does it reference http://zeitgeist-project.com/ontologies/2010/01/27/zg#UserActivity often [17:57] the default out of box logging only gets events from gtk.recentlyused [17:57] XiX its called ontology [17:57] and anything extra which needs to be logged requires plugin [17:58] to define if the event was a user activity or a notification [17:58] user activity is then defined by http://zeitgeist-project.com/ontologies/2010/01/27/zg#UserActivity [17:58] its not a link [17:58] its just a definition [17:58] it is a URI if i am not wrong [17:58] m4n1sh, its an ontology definition [17:59] yeah [17:59] but it is not a link [17:59] simply a URI [17:59] I = identifier [17:59] there should be an option at least [18:00] for? [18:00] for opting in using zeitgeist [18:00] just purge the packages [18:01] does a typical ubuntu user know about zeitgeist, much less how to purge packages? [18:01] sure, we do [18:01] but how about we wait [18:01] for the next guy to come in [18:01] to #ubuntu [18:01] XiX: so what is your solution? [18:02] remove the package [18:02] from the instaler [18:02] heere: cant happen [18:02] unity depends on zeitgeist [18:03] in the ubuntu installation, opt in unity and zeitgeist [18:03] well there you go, its just like the firefox awesomebar [18:03] its fine [18:04] you could even poll users [18:04] heere: people will cry a lot, but later settle [18:04] unity is canonical's new WM [18:04] heere: factual mistake [18:04] " unity is canonical's new WM" <-- factual mistake [18:04] when awesome bar came people, cried and later got used to it [18:04] eehhh fork of gnome? [18:04] heere: even more stupid answer [18:04] how on earth can it be a fork? [18:05] unless you are a sensational journalist [18:05] <XiX> joseph__, do you know anything about zeitgeist [18:05] <joseph__> No XiX I do not [18:05] XiX: not possible to poll users [18:05] describe unity as a piece of software in one sentence [18:05] we dont even have a list [18:05] heere: it is a shell [18:05] that it is [18:05] implemented as a plugin of compiz (which is the WM) [18:06] XiX: good. end-users dont care [18:06] they just need to get their work done [18:06] i believe they do [18:06] mostly they done care [18:06] i am an end-user [18:06] XiX do you use firefox? [18:06] good, then I will put that claim to be "95% of the end-userd dont care" [18:06] and i didnt even know about this until yesterday [18:06] *users [18:06] i think they dont care because they dont know [18:07] end-users just want to get their work done [18:07] that's all [18:07] like I am an end-user for LibreOffice, i don't care how the whole thing works [18:07] even though I can hack on it, but still I have other things to do [18:07] im sure end-users care about privacy === JackyAlcine is now known as Guest2635 [18:07] and logs [18:08] XiX: okay for last time, it isnt a privacy issue [18:08] if i rootkitted your machine, and you didnt know about it, and the information was going nowhere, would you still feel ok about it? [18:08] XiX: have you attended Ubuntu developer week's Zeitgeist session [18:08] XiX, same thing with pidgin, Firefox, Chrome, and more [18:08] ur point is invalid [18:08] XiX: you use a phone? does it show you a list of recently recieved calls? missed calls? dialled numbers [18:09] no i have not, as i stated i have only found out about this yesterday [18:09] get rid of the other log files first [18:09] then your phone also has secrutiy issues [18:09] privacy issues [18:09] and those programs, seiflotfy_, only log minimal activity, within themselves [18:09] XiX: zeitgeist doesnt log your chat content [18:09] only when you logged in [18:09] logged out [18:09] miminal info [18:09] i would count that as logging [18:09] no text stored [18:09] yes [18:09] it is minimal [18:09] lesser than what your apps do [18:10] for one, how do you disable zeitgeist logging certain things [18:10] XiX: there is the ksyslogd daemon that logs your login/logouts on every linux system. [18:10] from a factory installation [18:10] firefox logs your web browsing history, zeitgeist logs your desktop browsing history [18:10] m4n1sh, deinstall the loggers [18:10] in this case datahub === Guest2635 is now known as VirgilShock [18:11] i can disable firefox logs [18:11] datahub is the one that relogs from gtk.recentlyused [18:11] XiX: you can even disable zeitgeist [18:11] firefox has its own plugin [18:11] explain please [18:11] just purge the package [18:11] that is not installed by default === VirgilShock is now known as JackyAlcine [18:11] m4n1sh, this is not intuitive [18:11] we dont log fiefox logs [18:11] and not 'disabling' [18:11] if firefox is set to incognito we respect that [18:11] XiX: you still want something to be logged? [18:11] since the firefox plugin resides in firefox [18:11] zeitgeist itself doesnt d othe logging [18:12] but a set of plugins for apps send the info to zeitgeist [18:12] it relies on other applications to tell it [18:12] m4n1sh, ok i am letting oyu take over [18:12] seiflotfy_: where you going? [18:12] seiflotfy_: are you working on chromium integration? [18:13] kklimonda: AFAIK chrome plugin exists [18:13] is the extension API same? [18:13] for chromium [18:13] probably [18:13] I don't see why would they change it [18:13] XiX: you can uninstall zeitgeist-datahub package [18:13] ok, so im typical ubuntu user on a typical factory installation. i just heard about zeitgeist and i want to disable certain functionality after hearing about it, but i think its ok to work with unity. you tell me to purge the package. what does that mean to me ? [18:13] where can I download a copy of a binary ld-2.11.1.so? [18:13] heere: that should be part of the default install if I am not wrong [18:13] mine is corrupted i think [18:14] heere: you can get it from libc deb package [18:14] its segfaulting my init [18:14] XiX: apt-get remove zeitgeist-datahub [18:14] heere: and you can download deb package from http://packages.ubuntu.com/ or directly from Launchpad [18:14] <m4n1sh> XiX: apt-get remove zeitgeist-datahub [18:14] kklimonda: yeah. AFAIK npapi is the extension api followed [18:14] this is,again,not disabling certain functionality, and not intuitive [18:15] you are never informed about zeitgeist [18:15] the point being which certain functionality? [18:15] working with unity [18:15] XiX: then you want a huge gigantic popup telling "Hey, I am zeitgeist here" [18:15] in fact [18:15] the aim is to get out of the way [18:15] and help the end-users [18:15] in making his experience better [18:15] maybe im OK with it working with unity [18:15] but [18:15] keeping a history? [18:16] XiX: you are not informed about Firefox logging your history, or empathy logging your discussions either. [18:16] however [18:16] firefox makes it intuitive [18:16] wait.. you want it to work with unity but not keeping history? [18:16] to remove logs [18:17] what about empathy? [18:17] it doesnt [18:17] i cant find [18:17] nor pidgin [18:17] and openoffice also saves last used documents [18:17] so does gedit [18:17] ah [18:17] here is the difference [18:17] so does bash (in .bash_history ) [18:17] you PERMIT those applications by using them [18:17] whenever did you permit zeitgeist to log all this sht [18:17] ok i just replaced my ld.so with the i386 binary, even though its an x64 install [18:18] i hope it works.... [18:18] reboot [18:18] same here too [18:18] heere: doesn't make much sense [18:18] you permit ubuntu by using it [18:18] your right [18:18] the work of balancing of "Asking user if you want to enabled this feature" v/s making it easy [18:18] herein lies the flaw [18:18] im using ubuntu [18:18] :| [18:18] XiX: by installing ubuntu you permitted it [18:19] he he [18:19] great, time to get another OS then. one that doesnt log everything I do [18:19] you can use gentoo [18:19] compile everything [18:19] select everything you want to install :) [18:19] I hardly see how the list of recently accessed documents and applications is a privacy breach. [18:19] nothing bad in it.. people use it and love it [18:19] accessed? [18:19] kklimonda: it is, if you want to troll the channel. [18:19] hold on a minute [18:19] XiX: every OS does [18:20] kklimonda: it isnt [18:20] even bash does [18:20] lots of apps do it === elmo_ is now known as elmo [18:20] i like how every time someone has a genuine problem with ubuntu, it is dismissed as a 'troll' Ampelbein [18:20] singling out zeitgeist is what i find weird [18:20] XiX: get other OS, I am sure they also have logging [18:20] the oens you wont even kow [18:21] XiX: you are not a troll [18:21] ive tried many OS's m4n1sh [18:21] you are discussing it via points [18:21] trolls just run around in circles [18:21] we are using valid points to debate [18:21] yeah [18:21] all of them log [18:21] XiX: Every linux logs user activity such as date and time of logins, issueing commands, accessing filesystems [18:21] of course [18:22] but logging activities, events, files opened, websites viewed, and login to chat sessions [18:22] XiX: check your /var/log [18:22] and you will understand [18:22] not much difference [18:22] m4n1sh, im not new to linux :| [18:22] yes [18:22] good [18:22] when I logged in [18:22] when i connected to interney [18:22] when i put in my pen drive [18:22] everything is logged [18:22] i cant find much difference [18:22] XiX: what information does zeitgeist log that isn't logged by other programs? [18:23] i just stated it [18:23] XiX: do you mean that zeiteist logs websites and chats, even after you disable logging in firefox and empathy? [18:23] activities, events, files opened, login to chat sessions, and it is sometimes extended to websites viewed and conversations [18:23] kklimonda: out of box instal of ubuntu doesnt log firefox and empathy events [18:23] you know what that sounds like? [18:23] not websites [18:23] a rootkit to me [18:24] kklimonda: only file opening and closing [18:24] thats; it [18:24] actually only opening [18:24] out of box install of ubuntu with zeitgeist installed only supports this much [18:24] nothing else [18:24] and you install plugins explicitly [18:24] how about on Natty? [18:24] to log firefox [18:24] another for chrome [18:24] other for empathy [18:24] XiX: same as of now [18:24] XiX: only the accessed documents is logged at standard install. and even that is something that other programs do for a long time already. [18:25] Ampelbein: zeitgeist is like a central logger instead of all apps having their own loggers with recently used files [18:25] they can remove their lastest file functionality and use zeitgeist [18:25] if they want [18:25] m4n1sh: I know. [18:26] you guys are right, maybe im just concerned about how much ubuntu logs its users [18:26] XiX: out of box only opening files [18:26] which you already find in Places>Recent Documents [18:26] want more logging? install plugins [18:26] XiX: it isn't ubuntu, it's every gnome installation in the whole world that logs the same information. [18:26] maybe thats the problem [18:27] XiX: so what is your solution? [18:27] I think even KDE logs information [18:27] latest opened files [18:27] etc [18:27] XiX: then you should talk to the gnome developers to remove the "recent document"-functions, talk to the syslogd developers to stop logging logins/logouts, talk to the firefox developers to stop logging visited websites. why come to ubuntu? [18:28] idk, i dont have all of the answers [18:28] m4n1sh [18:28] yes [18:28] right now zeitgeist only extracts out file logs from gtk.recentlyused [18:28] sort of duplicating right now [18:28] XiX, your out of luck since Zeitgeist is being integrated with the next KDE per default [18:29] there are very good uses to it [18:29] XiX: the good uses outnumber the bad uses [18:29] and GNOME and KDE wouldn't have been cooperative if they did not see the benfits form it [18:29] this reminds me of how windows integrets shit and nobody has a voice in it [18:29] every technology can be misused [18:29] "and GNOME and KDE wouldn't have been cooperative if they did not see the benfits form it" THIS ----> +100 [18:30] XiX: I don't think any OS is spared in that [18:30] except in linux you can uninstall it [18:30] today, how can someone run a powerful OS that does not infringe on your privacy [18:30] i dont think it is possible [18:31] unless I package shit myself [18:31] means take source.. strip out things i dnt need [18:31] and compile [18:31] very well :\ [18:31] possible but time consuming [18:31] and there are only 24 hours in a day :) [18:31] ill just write a script to shred all of these logs [18:32] and run it in cron [18:32] XiX: actually you can set blacklists too [18:32] but right now the functionality is not so good [18:32] to do it [18:32] i dont like how this is all going, thats all [18:33] idk, ur right about the usability thing [18:33] XiX: yeah [18:33] if we ask the user in the installer "You want zeitgeist to be installed" [18:33] its hard to make an OS thats easy for the end users yet adaptive for the adept [18:33] most users wont understand that question [18:33] XiX, i love your points btw and i would be happy if you could join us on #zeitgeist [18:34] XiX: people who know can customize [18:34] u know poinit out any security and privacy concerns [18:34] and help us have an easy way to deal with it [18:34] XiX: the dilemma of default-settings and customization [18:34] to ensure maximum usability with minimum exposure of information [18:34] exactly [18:35] XiX: I am working on the blacklist plugin in the next zeitgeist release [19:55] * kklimonda wonders if it's time to create some sort of "no services written in anything but C and C++" policy.. I've got 12 python binaries running, and the suck memory like crazy.. [19:55] even unity is launched using python.. === tkamppeter_ is now known as tkamppeter === ubott2 is now known as ubottu === TerminX_ is now known as TerminX === iulian_ is now known as iulian [22:04] why did my package that builds perfectly on lucid, fail to build when I changed it to maverick in debian/control? http://launchpadlibrarian.net/65759906/buildlog_ubuntu-maverick-i386.elementary-wallpapers_0.2.1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz [22:06] aroman: it could be that in the lucid environment pkgbinarymangler isn't being run. [22:07] aroman: did you upload both packages to your ppa? [22:08] ampelbein_: yeah lucid has always worked [22:08] aroman: as the error says, it's dist-packages in python2.6, not site-packages [22:08] this package is just based on ubuntu-wallpapers [22:09] tumbleweed: i dont know what that means I'm afraid [22:09] i thought i'd see how ubuntu-wallpapers from the maverick series does it [22:09] aroman: you are installing python modules into the wrong location [22:09] and its identical [22:09] tumbleweed: I dont see how I can change that [22:10] Build-Depends: debhelper (>= 5), cdbs, python, python-central [22:10] Build-Depends-Indep: python-distutils-extra, xsltproc [22:10] aroman: it works on lucid because pkgbinarymangler is disabled there [22:10] ampelbein_: okay, so what should I do t rectify the situation? [22:11] aroman: i'll have a look [22:11] ampelbein_: great, thanks [22:11] aroman: ugh, 60MB [22:11] ampelbein_: :/ it's just wallpapers [22:12] if you have a really slow connection, i can strip them out and upload the tar.gz somewhere [22:12]