=== Seeker`_ is now known as Seeker` === Moot2 is now known as MootBot [00:18] AlanBell: http://cuth.eu/resize [00:22] my quest for a solid intel based motherboard and quadcore cpu continues [00:25] my quest for a c64 disk drive does :P [00:26] HazRPG: do you really want one ? [00:26] I have about 4 [00:26] maybe more [00:27] * hamitron has decided to stick with dual core with his new comp [00:28] ikonia: really? The actual disk drives? [00:28] :o! [00:29] ikonia: I just recently won a bid for a c64 off ebay :) [00:29] :) [00:29] HazRPG: the 1541 drives [00:29] but I would like to be able to move stuff between PC and c64 [00:29] 3 different generations [00:29] yeah that's the one [00:29] can't the c64 support a network? [00:30] hamitron: ther is a retro fit [00:30] HazRPG: I must have about 500 disk for them [00:30] ikonia: amazing! :o [00:31] are you a collector? [00:31] not intentionally [00:31] :) [00:32] :) [00:32] ffs [00:33] damn timeouts :/ [00:33] ikonia: just out of interest, how'd you get so many? [00:35] HazRPG: long time user, thats the only reason [00:35] ikonia: awesome [00:35] ikonia: I've never used one until recently (emulators, trackers, etc) [00:36] I owned a MZ-721 [00:36] and then later an atari 2600 [00:37] ah, happy memories [00:40] I'm sure I'd be a different person today, had I gotten into the c64 scene [00:49] I don't get why the floppy drives are more expensive then the machines themselves, it seems so silly [00:54] * hamitron is guessing they break more [00:54] or maybe because of people wanting them to transfer to other machines [00:54] then just use with an emulator [01:07] good chance it's just economy of scale. most people used tapes, so there's less floppy drives just knocking around people's attics === Azelphur is now known as zz_Azelphur === zz_Azelphur is now known as Azelphur [01:16] shauno: this is true [01:16] I'm guessing people with the floppy drives will have originally been programmers, or at least people trying to learn to programme [01:21] oh, and don't forget those that just copied games and gave them to friends/family etc [01:21] however I wouldn't be surprised if tapes were still more popular for that sort of thing [01:23] shauno: don't know if you read (since it was earlier in the day), but I've scored me 2 c64's from ebay :D [01:23] for £40 [01:23] along with tape drive [01:23] controller and 6 games [01:24] 2? [01:25] yup :) [01:25] apparently they both worked before they got stored in the attic (and moved house with him a few times in 14 years) [01:26] and he said the lights come on, but doesn't have the RF cable anymore to be able to test that it actually works on the TV [01:26] and the tape drive seems to still move - so seems like a pure bargain :) [01:27] two different versions, one seems like the original batch, and the other seems to look like the c64c [01:27] however there was a stage when the c64 and c64c looked similar between transition, so could be luck of the draw which it actually is [01:31] gl :) [01:51] hamitron: thanks :) [01:51] I would prefer if they were both the original c64's since the SID in those were far superior to the others [01:52] it is kind of weird [01:52] I have spent years holding onto old tech [01:52] its the SID 6581 [01:52] the c64c and the c128 used the same SID chip of 8580 [01:53] then as soon as I consider getting rid of it, you guys start talking retro ;/ [01:53] and now I am getting dragged back into thoughts of using old gear [01:54] the reason the original SID was better, was because they rushed to try and get it out as quick as possible (think they had 5 months for a computer show)... and well it had a few things that were sort of disabled or not wired up that you could essentially harness in code [01:55] well, wasn't really rushed, the basically had a spec. sheet, and just went on developing them one by one, and added new ones if they and when they could [01:56] one such thing that the guy who came up with the SID audio chip, wanted it to have audio input - however it was never finished the the audio in pin is not wired to anything [01:56] hamitron: haha, always happens with me too :P [01:57] you guys talking means I will be still using a K6-2 at my main desk :/ [01:57] I mean the c64 and the zx were always classics in my mind, but I never owned or experienced them... I'd heard and seen them, but never used one [01:57] I have a couple of ZX [01:58] nice [01:58] got my ZX128 +2 plugged in [01:58] the ZX was another rushed system :P [01:58] well, it is fun [01:58] ;) [01:58] never done much on it [01:58] but is fun [01:59] oh, don't get me wrong - the fact that they were rushed was what made them unique! [01:59] but I also enjoy using old pentium pc too [01:59] :) [01:59] from nothing to full system in 5 months is pretty ... awesome! [02:00] to me, the 586 was the best times [02:00] better games arrived [02:00] and things today still haven't moved on much [02:01] oh the i586? [02:01] yeh [02:01] nice [02:02] shame systems like that seem to lose their ways in most peoples minds :( [02:02] I suppose peoples internet connections, ment they never bothered with online play options [02:02] so that is different [02:02] true [02:02] wait, you mean games haven't progressed much? [02:02] or just systems in general? [02:02] yeh [02:03] both tbh [02:03] how so? [02:03] just look at the average game or OS [02:03] all these processor cycles and mb of memory [02:03] I mean going from blue/black/green displays to full colour with interactive interface etc is just awesome [02:04] you had 24 bit colour in windows 95 ;/ [02:04] win 95 hates me :/ [02:05] * dutchie was too young for win 95 [02:05] :) === Azelphur is now known as zz_Azelphur [02:05] and the protection of a 3y.o. was just ridiculous ("Enter password: " *press cancel* SUCCESS!) [02:05] in win95? [02:05] yeah [02:06] you could block network access though [02:06] pressing cancel on the login screen, just logged you straight in :/ [02:06] no it didn't [02:06] ;) [02:06] it did give you some access [02:06] did on every win95 system I came across lol [02:07] I remember setting up logins for win95 on my linux server [02:07] I don't think I ever knew the password to our "family" computer... still managed to get IRC and other stuff on it with ease [02:07] dutchie: really? [02:08] dutchie: Hmm, I thought I was the youngest here. [02:08] HazRPG: did you only use windows 95 at homes? [02:08] hamitron: I was 8 so yeah :P [02:09] the local security was not good, so yeh [02:09] :) [02:09] HazRPG: not 19 until July [02:09] and issyl0 at least is younger than me [02:09] I think we had it at school too, and hitting cancel just bypassed everything :/ [02:09] if that didn't work... restart try again [02:09] HazRPG: didn't give you access to other peoples files though [02:09] or printers [02:10] hamitron: did when you changed a few reg files xD [02:10] well it wasn't setup right then :/ [02:10] I actually made a floppy with some reg files just for getting rid of the security stuff lol [02:11] dutchie: ah, I'm 24 in june [02:11] dutchie: I never really see issyl0 online [02:11] but yeh, local security was not good [02:11] she is around occasionally :P [02:11] hamitron: did it actually have local security :P? [02:12] but anyway, one counterexample is sufficient [02:12] just what you bypassed [02:12] :) [02:12] :P [02:13] but security is not everything [02:13] I'm looking at new ideas and ways end users interact with stuff [02:14] we gone from a start menu, to a start menu with a few "sections" and it scrolls [02:14] 3d games have gone to 3d games that just have better lighting and texture quality [02:15] buttons are now round, rather than square [02:16] a backup of accounts software used to be a couple of floppy disks, now the same information takes 200Mb [02:16] :s [02:17] but I suppose not many care, so things can get as big as they like, with no thought to efficiency [02:17] yeah :/ [02:18] some things are not even as good [02:18] good example is Grand Prix 3 vs F1 2010 [02:19] there really is nothing better or new, apart from a few fancy scenes [02:19] actually we went from file explorer -> start menu -> start menu with more colours -> start menu with scrolls -> start menu with scrolls and search [02:19] but it is still a start menu! [02:19] :) [02:19] my point was [02:20] and now I need a cpu 10x the power [02:20] the first gui system was just a file explorer [02:20] apps were on the desktop [02:20] and in folders [02:20] but that was all [02:20] * HazRPG growls at stupid win 3.1 and its lack of ability to play any of the games I bought for it [02:20] I don't see 10x more functionality [02:21] erm... we have wobble effects on linux \o/ [02:21] exactly my point ;/ [02:22] easier install process [02:22] is it? [02:22] well from "LOAD "*",8" to "ooo, its there... *clicks*" [02:23] there was clicks more than 10 years ago [02:23] :) [02:23] well yeah, that was when XP came out :P [02:24] iirc, the first I remember having it was mandrake 6.1 [02:24] hamitron: what would you like to see differently? [02:24] I personally like how things act [02:25] but I don't like how it crunches through memory doing it the same as it once did [02:25] personally going from textual to graphical (which the mind processes in anyway) was a big achievement [02:25] they've just been refining it since [02:25] hamitron: your using the wrong o/s then ;) [02:25] linux kernel is tiny, or can be [02:25] I'd replace "refining" with "adding to" [02:26] I don't blame the kernel [02:26] also, your using the wrong front-end if you feel that strongly too [02:26] flux, etc come to mind [02:26] I am? :| [02:26] I am using LXDE [02:27] that was going to be my next suggestion :P [02:27] but it isn't what I use [02:27] ...well then what's the issue :P? [02:27] it is how the direction of computing is going [02:27] ah, yeah I know [02:27] I couldn't run this on a system with 32mb ram ... [02:29] blame the physicist that that computers would double every two years - mr moore himself [02:29] that said* [02:29] him and everyone who drives it that way :) [02:30] I mean, I don't mind systems having more resources... [02:30] but it would be nice to see them resources put to some good use [02:30] its science, if there's a law - you must abide by it unless you can prove wrongly - general consensus [02:31] hamitron: think of it this way [02:31] |000000011| [02:31] that represents a system along with its memory [02:32] the 11 is basically how much of it is used for the operation of the rest of the sytem [02:33] now if you double the other figures (hardware), you must double the operating system too [02:33] you don't have to ;) [02:33] you don't have to. but generally the whole point of having more resources is to be able to do more with them [02:33] someone was at the door sorry [02:34] hmm, I have to disagree [02:34] at 2:30 am? [02:34] if I double my memory, I expect to run nearly twice as many firefox tabs... not for each tab to use more memory each [02:34] memory was probably a bad example [02:34] take storage for example [02:34] same with cpu cycles [02:35] storage even more so :) a 32 bit float needs to only take 32 bits [02:36] I dunno how new accounts software converts say 2mb to 200mb [02:36] the way it stores it data onto a given medium, you need to define how to access the whole device (all the write sectors in the case of a HDD), you then also need a way of being able to scan through that medium, so some form of indexing is needed [02:36] that does not double the use of that [02:37] what is happening, the average system doubles in power, so the software coders don't worry if the end product uses double [02:38] shauno: yeah I understand that, but when you have more resources - you also need to waste/use more to be able to address them [02:38] so you end up with no extra resources to run more === zz_Azelphur is now known as Azelphur [02:38] which ali1234 was about, I always like his input [02:38] altho its I do really like shauno and hamitron's too though :) [02:38] IPv6 is a good example [02:39] yes it uses more space, but it increases the number of IP by many more times [02:39] hamitron: incorrect, you still have more to work with for your actual software, however you've got to remember that the software will still get bigger because it has more address it needs to be able to manage [02:39] it isn't incorrect :| [02:40] you are exagerating the overhead of addressing [02:40] oh no, I wasn't saying incorrect to IP's [02:40] IPv6* [02:40] it is the same for hardware addressing... [02:41] for every extra bit assigned to addressing, you can double the number of addressed locations [02:42] wait, wasn't that what I tried to say with my diagram? [02:43] you were saying there is nothing gained from more memory or storage [02:43] I was trying to say, if a system requires 1/3 of it (hypothetically) for addressing, if you double the number you have available, you still need to use 1/3 of it for addressing them [02:43] but the extra gained is in fact used by bloated applications imo [02:44] that is wrong [02:44] but even if it is right [02:44] no need for firefox to grow and use more of 2/3 left [02:45] the issues with software, is usually the try to add more features - thinking ah we've got plenty of rooom - that no one cares to optimize their code any more [02:45] yeh [02:45] and the OS comes under that too [02:46] of course, however the O/S is slightly different if you think of it as a whole [02:46] parts of it is basically for WYSIWYG [02:46] the other parts are for communications [02:46] see, I don't agree at all [02:46] its usually the gui stuff that tends to get bloated out [02:46] shauno: do shame :) [02:47] 10 years ago I had a really awful computer. well behind the times. an amd 486dx4+B, at a stonking 120MHz [02:47] now, when itunes uses 5% of the cpu, people can't figure out why it's "so bloated" [02:48] that 486 couldn't play an mp3. and 120MHz is *more* than 5% of 2.2GHz [02:49] it's all very well saying "I did the same thing 10 years ago in a fraction of the hardware" === webpigeon is now known as Guest89431 [02:49] we didn't do the same things 10 years ago. at all. [02:49] I agree new functions need more resources [02:50] and that is why new games use more, to do more [02:51] but I could view webpages with a comp with only 16mb ram [02:51] I could word process [02:52] I actually had IE4 on windows 3.1 fairly recently for something. yes it existed. no it wasn't the same at all :) [02:52] it displayed a webpage with information on [02:52] ;/ [02:52] web page != web document [02:53] I do blame the content providers parts [02:53] partly* [02:53] * hamitron starts clean firefox up [02:53] 46mb ram :/ [02:53] hamitron: back when you were viewing a web document, it only had text and needed to parse that on-screen [02:54] or possibly images [02:54] etc [02:54] however now [02:54] it did images ;/ [02:54] now you have javascript, flash and loads of crap [02:54] that really doesn't add to the quality of information available [02:54] we have flash, javascript, audio, video, ... and many other plugins left right and centre [02:56] I had audio and video on my p120 :/ [02:56] not everything was integrated though as plugins [02:56] ah see exactly, your browser now does more than your browser did back then [02:56] a web browser was a web browser, a media player was for playing media [02:57] that is my point too, pointless :D [02:57] bring back these days: http://media.rhizome.org/blog/3669/browser-editor.png ? [02:58] I have a feeling that's at native resolution too [02:58] that is in 16 colours ;/ [02:58] or maybe 256 [02:59] and 3/4 of them are being used for icons === Azelphur is now known as zz_Azelphur [02:59] I'm not saying we have to give up all new features [03:00] just cut back on some of the bloat and requirements [03:01] things like buttons lighting up when the cursor goes over them [03:01] ;) [03:01] round memory hogging graphics for the buttons [03:02] it would free memory up, to be used for things like better quality pics and stuff [03:05] hamitron: round buttons don't take any more memory than square [03:05] well not much anyways [03:06] also, use chrome/chromium ;) [03:06] or disable plugins :o! [03:07] well at least the ones you don't use [03:08] chrome uses too much memory [03:08] each tab uses 40mb? [03:09] hamitron: ever sat and counted what it needs to store in memory? [03:10] each picture and text block [03:10] in rendered form [03:11] eh, chrome does process separation; so each tab contains not just the content, but the footprint of the renderer itself, the javascript engine, plugin containers, etc [03:11] good for security [03:11] so i do not mind it doing so [03:11] that is part of the design [03:12] shauno: plugins are self contained in their own process, however the footprint of its usage I understand [03:12] but I bet firefox 1.0 runs faster than 3.6 [03:12] and both display text and pictures fine [03:12] hamitron: you'd be surprised [03:13] it'll vary by content. I'd expect 1.0 to be faster on straight pages, but slower on stuff that uses js to any real degree [03:14] js is the devil of modern webpages [03:14] as is all scripting and flashy stuff [03:14] ;) [03:14] anything with the word java is [03:14] so you'd give up gmail to go back to 90's-style yahoo? [03:14] yes [03:14] haha [03:14] nutter [03:14] nope [03:15] gmail does actually have a basic option... [03:15] hamitron: not as basic as you'd think though [03:15] yeah. stops j/k keys from working tho, so it's not worth it :) [03:15] shauno: freedom of choice! [03:15] ;) [03:16] hamitron: well you know the linux moto ;) [03:16] "don't like it, write your own" [03:16] or rather foss I should say [03:16] "if you don't like it, tough **** because canonical don't want to hear it" [03:16] :p [03:16] haha shauno [03:16] shauno: haha ;p [03:17] I will be giving ubuntu one last try, cut down [03:17] see where that takes me [03:17] you're going to find the same issues pretty much everywhere [03:18] I mean, the difference between win95 and winxp wasn't just programmers getting lazy [03:18] ... hmm, DSL? [03:18] there is a lts release of puppy, but that has loads installed and looks like a kids machine [03:18] personally I prefer ubuntu 8.04 [03:19] I think you'd do well to try linuxfromscratch some time [03:19] I have === zz_Azelphur is now known as Azelphur [03:19] took me ages damn it [03:19] haha [03:19] have fun trying to juggle bloat vs features yourself [03:19] or at least oemtools [03:19] been testing things, it looks like my freezes are indeed multi X screen related. I don't get freezes if I use either card on it's own [03:20] so as I said about 3 years ago, it's official, it looks like Linux has gone into the realms where more than 2 displays is just completely unusable :( [03:20] I would run my own compiled system, but that is hard work to maintain [03:20] Azelphur: have you tried multiple X using the same card for output? [03:20] HazRPG, nope [03:20] but that'd be kinda pointless :P [03:20] I used to do that :) [03:20] can you not get it working with a custom xorg.conf? [03:21] it does "work" [03:21] that bugs me too, no xorg.conf by default [03:21] it just freezes within a matter of minutes now [03:21] :/ [03:21] does it work in windows? [03:21] and I get artifacts and stuff [03:21] no xorg.conf makes perfect sense to me [03:22] does multi X work in windows? probably not :P [03:22] no xorg.conf makes sense shauno :) but the old fashioned ways of creating the config should still be included [03:23] last I looked they were [03:23] man, I should learn to stop running myself down like this [03:23] * HazRPG 's uptime: 1d:3hrs [03:23] I gotta get up in 4 hours :/ [03:24] I gotta get up in 90 minutes lol [03:24] hehe [03:24] ah, looks like xorg took XF86Config out back and shot it. 'bout time. [03:24] shauno: I thought the X config stuff wasn't maintained now [03:24] might try xinerama for a bit see how I get on with that [03:24] no compiz though :( [03:25] Azelphur: hmm, not a big fan of xinerama at all [03:25] not cos of the lack of compiz... just what it does to applications in "fullscreen" [03:25] yea [03:25] I get that anyway without xinerama :D [03:25] I liked X.org 6.x best [03:25] :) [03:26] xinerama's the way to stay sane. TwinView is broken :) [03:26] Azelphur: same [03:26] quad screen is epic bugged but nobody will fix things :( [03:26] well, most won't rather [03:26] most developers just say yea nobody has more than 2 displays I'm not fixing that goodbye :P [03:26] ali1234 made a hack for firefox/chrome to get flash to stop being stupid and use proper linux calls for fullscreen [03:26] hehe [03:26] (gnome-do and gnome-panel devs are really bad for this) [03:27] it is because they are all communist, and hate people with too much money ;) [03:27] shauno: I use twinview without problems [03:27] I could never run a separate X instance on tv-out with twinview [03:28] drove me nuts [03:28] nvidia need to get their ass into gear [03:28] I think it's more of an X limitation too [03:28] I dont' blame nv so much [03:28] and X.org need to stop moving the target so fast :/ [03:28] I don't know any cards that can do quad [03:28] frankly, X needs to die [03:29] so many revisions and broken-ness [03:29] so yeh [03:29] :) [03:29] personally I think the linux kernel needs to be recoded - but that's just me [03:29] !!!!!!! [03:29] not that I hate how its done now [03:30] * hamitron points HazRPG to BSD [03:30] see how much "better" it is ;) [03:30] it does have its place I suppose [03:30] BSD is still monolithic though [03:30] microkernel is where it should be at [03:31] pft. that ship's sailed. [03:31] shauno: ? [03:31] even osx just puts everything in one mach server. [03:32] the only people who still think microkernel's a good idea, are hurd. and look where that's got them. [03:32] minix is getting worse too [03:33] dev is moving fast I suppose [03:33] guess that is why I don't like it [03:33] ;) [03:34] * hamitron grunts [03:38] seriously, that's fun for academics to play with / argue over. I can't think of anyone that's actually ship it outside of a lab tho. [03:38]