micahgmr_pouit: can I pull in the new xfce4-mixer?04:10
mr_pouitmicahg: feel free to do it06:37
micahgmr_pouit: thanks, will do later this week06:37
mr_pouit(it's not really bugfix only, so I've been too lazy because of the possible paper work)06:37
micahgmr_pouit: I think we want it though, right?06:37
micahgI'm guessing we're less likely to have issues with teh 4.8 mixer than the 4.6 one06:38
mr_pouitWe already ship the most important bugfixes as patches06:40
mr_pouitbut the libxfce4ui port might be interesting (although we won't get rid of libxfcegui4 anytime soon)06:41
micahgmr_pouit: I actually don't have the xfce4-mixer anymore after I upgraded to natty, figured being 4.6.x might be part of the reason06:41
* micahg wants to get rid of the gnome-media stuff06:41
mr_pouitmicahg: mmh, what do you mean?06:42
micahggnome-media applets replaced xfce4-mixer in my panel on upgrade06:43
micahgalso, I haven't been able to get nm-applet back on the panel06:43
micahgI couldn't see the session applet until I removed the indicator applet06:43
mr_pouitA lot of useless things are probably pulled in on upgrades :/06:46
mr_pouite.g. gnome-media, gnome-system-monitor, and indicator-appmenu06:46
mr_pouit(xfce4-mixer should still be installable though, even if it's not in the default panel config)06:48
=== ubott2 is now known as ubottu
=== ochosi_ is now known as ochosi
charlie-tcaGood morning15:34
micahggood morning15:35
micahgI found something else that should go in the launcher, pidgin :)15:35
* micahg is on naowtty n15:35
micahg*natty now15:35
charlie-tcapidgin is in the indicator panel, you don't need a launcher to start it15:36
charlie-tcajust click the envelope in the panel15:36
micahgthat's thunderbird 15:36
charlie-tcano, the top panel has an envelope that is the indicators, it should start pidgin there15:37
* micahg thinks he got rid of that15:38
charlie-tcaWell, that should start pidgin for you, though. lol15:39
charlie-tcaThe good thing is you can drag and drop a launcher into the panel15:40
micahgindicators were broke on the first load, maybe I'll try them again tomorrow (have work to do today :))15:42
charlie-tcaJust add pidgin to the launcher panel. I never use it, myself.15:42
ochosihey charlie-tca 15:43
charlie-tcaHello, ochosi 15:43
ochosii fixed a few problems in greybird over the weekend, and there was also one more thing i wanted to propose15:43
ochosiat first i wanted to make the indicator-menus fit the panel-color (atm they are bright like all other menus)15:44
ochosiand then i realized that if i make them dark, it seems inconsistent with the app-menu and the session-menu15:45
charlie-tcaAren't they a menu, too?15:45
ochosiyeah, but that's the thing:15:45
ochosiappmenu and session-menu are generic gtk-menus, so you can't theme them directly without theming all the other menus as well15:45
ochosiso basically i went ahead and tried that15:45
ochosiin fact i think it makes the menus in all applications stand out a little more, they're more visible15:46
ochosibut you could also argue that a bright menubar with a dark menu looks inconsistent15:46
ochosianyhow, i think it'd be best if you gave it a try yourself15:46
charlie-tcaokay, where do I grab it?15:47
ochosibtw, there are no applications that have troubles with this, i fixed ooo, firefox etc. and all of them are ok15:47
ochosicharlie-tca: https://github.com/shimmerproject/Greybird/archives/master15:47
ochosiit's rather easy to switch the dark menus on and off15:48
ochosii can comment the code in a way that a user can quickly switch back to bright/dark menus (whatever we decide for in the end)15:48
charlie-tcaOriginal menus are light/medium grey?15:48
ochosiyeah, the original menus are grey15:48
ochosithey look consistent, but they don't stand out from the rest of the window very much15:48
ochosii think that's the biggest gain15:48
charlie-tcaokay, I just realized I have no menus 15:49
ochosiand of course the panel-menus look a lot more consistent now15:49
ochosiyou don't?15:49
ochosino xfce4-appmenu?15:49
ochosiin thunar there also should be menus15:49
charlie-tcano, I upgraded to natty before alpha1. When Xfce4.8 came along, the application menu was broken15:50
ochosiwell, most other apps should have menus too15:50
ochosifirefox, thunar etc15:50
charlie-tcaI never added it to the panel15:50
ochosieven if you don't you'll see the difference in the session-menu15:50
ochosiand the indicators15:50
charlie-tcaI have no indicators, either15:51
ochosiright :)15:51
charlie-tcaI don't even have the right panels15:51
ochosiwell, nvm15:51
charlie-tcait's okay, I have the greybird theme at least15:51
charlie-tcathe panels are the right colors15:51
charlie-tcaI just had it all set up, and it works real good for me15:52
ochosigood to hear15:52
ochosiwell check out how it works with the latest greybird for you and let me know15:52
charlie-tcathat's why I have to install from the images every day or two15:52
charlie-tcaThat's when I see the real changes we made15:53
ochosiyeah the greybird changes i just talked about haven't been pushed to xubuntu yet, they're only in git15:53
ochosiok, i'll be back later15:54
charlie-tcaGot the download, will put it all in themes15:54
charlie-tcamicahg: can you take a look at the latest theme?16:01
charlie-tcaI like it16:01
charlie-tcaa lot16:02
micahgcharlie-tca: maybe this evening16:02
charlie-tcaokay, thanks16:02
charlie-tcadictionary plugin works good on panel, verve plugin - text typed matches the color of the background, and is not visible; xfce4-timer-plugin - scale is black, can not see the bar graph move16:07
charlie-tcawell, erased the wrong drive on my test install today; got to set a new install for the grandkids again16:22
micahgindicator plugin + nm-applet is broke16:23
charlie-tcaunity auto login is broken too16:24
charlie-tcawhat did we break?16:24
charlie-tcayou said you removed that indicator thing16:25
micahgyep, when I add it back, nm-applet goes away16:25
micahgor rather is hidden16:25
micahgand I can't get it back unless I restart the panel16:25
charlie-tcaoh, yeah, it hides. Click where it should be, it should still work16:26
charlie-tcai forgot that one16:26
micahgitems list doesn't show it16:27
charlie-tcashould still be on the panel, maybe as a blank space16:27
micahgitems should show everything in the panel16:28
micahgand no, I can't click it16:28
charlie-tcahm, unity is nice, but very hard for new users to find anything that is not already in the launcher panel16:28
ochosimicahg: no, items list doesn't show anything inside the indicator applet16:28
micahgah, hmm16:28
ochosimicahg: are you using a vertical or a horizontal panel?16:28
* micahg tries adding back the indicator applet to see if nm-applet appears16:29
ochosimicahg: afaik indicators can only be used in a horizontal panel16:29
ochosido a "xfce4-panel --restart" after adding the indicator plugin16:29
mr_pouityeah, the current callback for xfce4-indicator-plugin in orientation-changed does nothing =]16:30
ochosihehe, in fact i read the code a while ago and was wondering why there was code for it that does nothing :)16:30
micahgindicator-plugin has no width16:30
charlie-tcaIsn't horizontal only going to lead to a lot of user issues?16:30
ochosicharlie-tca: how do you mean?16:31
ochosicharlie-tca: both our panels are horizontal atm and afaik the xubuntu/ubuntu panels always have been (without unity)16:31
mr_pouitmicahg: feel free to create a patch, I already heavily patched it to make it work16:32
micahgthe dock works vertical16:32
mr_pouit(I sent them upstream too)16:32
micahgmr_pouit: that doesn't sound good :-/16:32
mr_pouitwell, it's definitely not cool, but many panel plugins work badly with vertical panels16:33
ochosii have to say vertical panel has improved a lot since 4.616:33
ochosie.g. the window-buttons16:33
micahgwell, I'm just worried about the indicator plugin horizontal ATM16:33
ochosimicahg: you mean the indicators work vertically but not horizontally?16:34
charlie-tcayes, we default to horizontal, but users can make them vertical. If a default plugin fails then, we did that to them16:34
micahgochosi: no, they don't work horizontally on the top panel (I haven't tried vertically)16:34
ochosicharlie-tca: not sure that if a user changes something about the config we provide him with it's the best phrasing to say "we did that to them", because even technically they did it to themselves16:35
ochosicharlie-tca: also, we can't fix everything that doesn't work upstream (even though mr_pouit does a hell of a job trying ;) )16:35
charlie-tcaIt is our position to provide the best possible user experience. We don't invalidate a bug because a user changed something. and we should not be telling the user, you moved something, so you broke it16:36
* micahg will be uploading a new version of crashtastic midori tonight16:36
ochosimicahg: nice, looking forward to testing midori again16:37
mr_pouitmicahg: huhu, I thought it had improved16:37
charlie-tcaBy using the indicator applet, we created the defaults. To tell them they broke it by moving the panel is werong16:37
micahg0.3.0 is horrible16:37
* micahg is hoping 0.3.2 is better (paperwork done :))16:37
ochosicharlie-tca: well, i didn't mean the bug is invalid, but i thought we already try to provide the best user experience by using the panel config we developed over the last months16:38
* micahg is notorious for filing lots of FFes16:38
charlie-tcawell, we are. but did we know the indicator applet has to stay horizontal?16:39
charlie-tcaIt's like the session menu bug. I have not had a failure since I removed that thing16:40
ochosihm, i wasn't consciously thinking of it, but i experienced it before16:40
charlie-tcaLack of information makes for bad decisions, sometimes16:40
* ochosi hasn't experienced any session-menu probs lately16:40
charlie-tcaI will say we seem to be making a better user experience that Unity is, right now16:41
charlie-tcaI think removing the menus is a bad thing for Ubuntu. It is not easy for the new user to find anything, including how to add new users16:42
micahgespecially if the search doesn't work :-/16:42
charlie-tcaeven if it does, if you came from windows, what would you search for?16:43
charlie-tcaI just locked up Ubuntu completely, trying to set the screensaver16:43
mr_pouitI'll say it, one last time: the "logout-to-gdm-instead-of-reboot" is not specific to xfsm-logout-plugin...16:43
charlie-tcamr_pouit: I keep hearing that, but not using session menu solved it here, on three systems16:44
mr_pouitwell, good for you16:44
mr_pouitfor me, using applications > logout, I always return to gdm16:44
charlie-tcaOTOH, none were virtual machines16:45
charlie-tcaremove session menu, add Action Buttons, first restart goes to gdm, then it works16:45
charlie-tcaAs long as session menu is in the panel, it fails16:45
* micahg had that happen in a non-virtual machine as well16:48
ochosicharlie-tca: what do you think of the new greybird-menus?16:55
knomecharlie-tca, the slideshow is pending on your opinion on the greybird menus. can you give one?17:02
charlie-tcaochosi: I like it, a lot17:10
charlie-tcaIt does show up much better17:10
ochosiok cool :)17:10
ochosihappy to hear that17:10
ochosias stated above i tested it in natty and maverick with the known troublemaker-apps like firefox and libreoffice and it all seems to work great17:11
charlie-tcawonderful! They really are more visible, and I don't think the contrast is bad17:12
ochosiyeah, the contrast is the same as in the panel17:12
ochosiso it should work ok for dark and bright icons17:12
ochosiand i also tried to make the text very readable17:12
charlie-tcaknome: explain?17:12
charlie-tcawhat about greybird menus?17:12
ochosihe meant that the menus will show up in the screenshots for the slideshow and i'm about to do them ;)17:13
ochosiwill or might show up17:13
charlie-tcaIt would be good to showcase them17:13
ochosiyes, that's what i thought17:13
ochosiespecially since we'll show the application menu17:13
knomeno problem then17:15
charlie-tcaand we have Oneiric Ocelot coming next!17:18
charlie-tcaoneiric is pronounced own-eye-rick17:20
ochosiyeah, that'll definitely be harder for non-native speakers than "natty" or "maverick"17:20
charlie-tcaum, it is not really all that common for native speakers17:21
ochosihm yeah, i guessed so :)17:21
ochosiit sounds a bit obscure17:21
ochosias in: obscure ocelot17:21
charlie-tcais the official pronunciation17:22
charlie-tcaIt just hurts my eyes to say it... :-(17:22
micahgoh, is lightdm not provided on upgrades?20:45
micahgand where should I file a missing menu category icon bug under?20:45
charlie-tcalightdm is in the repository, but we are not using it yet20:46
charlie-tcawhich category is missing the icon?20:46
micahgoh, ok20:46
Sysiany plans about 4.8 lucid ppa?20:47
charlie-tcanot yet, Sysi 20:47
Sysihttp://forum.xfce.org/viewtopic.php?id=5712 koshi says there are some problems, i'm gonna try if it works self-compiled20:48
charlie-tcamicahg: I am looking20:48
mr_pouitmicahg: elementary-icon-theme, but upstream is on lp as well, so you might want to check their bzr branch before reporting20:49
micahgmr_pouit: ok, thanks20:50
micahgcharlie-tca: where's the Firefox menu for you?  in the panel or in Firefox?20:56
charlie-tcaTell me we have not followed ubuntu's lead and moved them to the panel, please.20:57
charlie-tcaUnity is about the hardest, least accessible thing I have tried yet20:57
micahgthe xfce4-indicator-plugin is claiming it supports it, so I lost my menus20:58
mr_pouitremove indicator-appmenu20:59
micahgugh, then I can't test unity :-/20:59
micahgthat's probably what's killing it though21:00
mr_pouitI've a work-in-progress patch to blacklist it from xfce4-indicator-plugin if you want to test21:00
micahgmr_pouit: sure21:00
micahgPPA or patch21:00
charlie-tcaright now, to use unity requires a hardware keyboard and mouse21:00
mr_pouitmicahg: http://lionel.lefolgoc.net/misc/xfce4-indicator-plugin/debian-changes-0.2.0-0ubuntu321:01
charlie-tcaThose who can not use the keyboard are screwed21:01
mr_pouitmicahg: and the plugin config is http://lionel.lefolgoc.net/misc/xfce4-indicator-plugin/indicator-5.rc (for the default config, you can put it in /etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/xfce4/panel or in $HOME/.config/xfce4/panel/)21:02
micahgmr_pouit: that version appears to be in natty21:02
mr_pouityep, that's a quick hack21:03
mr_pouit(I didn't bump the version locally)21:04
micahgk, thanks21:04
micahgmr_pouit: didn't seem to work, I restarted the panel after I rebuilt with it21:14
mr_pouitmicahg: does the plugin number of the config file match yours?21:18
mr_pouit(in the default xubuntu config, indicator is the 5th plugin, but for you it might be different)21:18
mr_pouitso you have to change the filename (indicator-XX.rc)21:18
micahgwhere do I find this info?21:19
micahgis this the list in the panel prefs?21:19
mr_pouitusually, grep indicator ~/.config/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfce4-panel.xml21:19
mr_pouityeah, or in the prefs21:19
mr_pouit(the tooltip will give you the internal name)21:20
micahgmr_pouit: it works, now the trick must be to get the numbers aligned :), it's 6 fo rme21:22
micahgand now it's beautiful :)21:22
mr_pouitthanks for alpha testing ;-)21:25
micahgno problem, I'm happy to have nm-applet working :)21:25
* micahg loves fixes that can be applies in under 5 minutes :)21:26

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