[04:10] mr_pouit: can I pull in the new xfce4-mixer? [06:37] micahg: feel free to do it [06:37] mr_pouit: thanks, will do later this week [06:37] (it's not really bugfix only, so I've been too lazy because of the possible paper work) [06:37] mr_pouit: I think we want it though, right? [06:38] I'm guessing we're less likely to have issues with teh 4.8 mixer than the 4.6 one [06:40] We already ship the most important bugfixes as patches [06:41] but the libxfce4ui port might be interesting (although we won't get rid of libxfcegui4 anytime soon) [06:41] mr_pouit: I actually don't have the xfce4-mixer anymore after I upgraded to natty, figured being 4.6.x might be part of the reason [06:41] * micahg wants to get rid of the gnome-media stuff [06:42] micahg: mmh, what do you mean? [06:43] gnome-media applets replaced xfce4-mixer in my panel on upgrade [06:43] also, I haven't been able to get nm-applet back on the panel [06:43] I couldn't see the session applet until I removed the indicator applet [06:46] A lot of useless things are probably pulled in on upgrades :/ [06:46] e.g. gnome-media, gnome-system-monitor, and indicator-appmenu [06:48] (xfce4-mixer should still be installable though, even if it's not in the default panel config) === ubott2 is now known as ubottu === ochosi_ is now known as ochosi [15:34] Good morning [15:35] good morning [15:35] I found something else that should go in the launcher, pidgin :) [15:35] * micahg is on naowtty n [15:35] *natty now [15:36] pidgin is in the indicator panel, you don't need a launcher to start it [15:36] just click the envelope in the panel [15:36] that's thunderbird [15:37] no, the top panel has an envelope that is the indicators, it should start pidgin there [15:38] * micahg thinks he got rid of that [15:38] heh [15:39] Well, that should start pidgin for you, though. lol [15:40] The good thing is you can drag and drop a launcher into the panel [15:42] indicators were broke on the first load, maybe I'll try them again tomorrow (have work to do today :)) [15:42] Just add pidgin to the launcher panel. I never use it, myself. [15:43] hey charlie-tca [15:43] Hello, ochosi [15:43] i fixed a few problems in greybird over the weekend, and there was also one more thing i wanted to propose [15:44] at first i wanted to make the indicator-menus fit the panel-color (atm they are bright like all other menus) [15:45] and then i realized that if i make them dark, it seems inconsistent with the app-menu and the session-menu [15:45] Aren't they a menu, too? [15:45] yeah, but that's the thing: [15:45] appmenu and session-menu are generic gtk-menus, so you can't theme them directly without theming all the other menus as well [15:45] so basically i went ahead and tried that [15:46] in fact i think it makes the menus in all applications stand out a little more, they're more visible [15:46] but you could also argue that a bright menubar with a dark menu looks inconsistent [15:46] anyhow, i think it'd be best if you gave it a try yourself [15:47] okay, where do I grab it? [15:47] btw, there are no applications that have troubles with this, i fixed ooo, firefox etc. and all of them are ok [15:47] charlie-tca: https://github.com/shimmerproject/Greybird/archives/master [15:48] it's rather easy to switch the dark menus on and off [15:48] i can comment the code in a way that a user can quickly switch back to bright/dark menus (whatever we decide for in the end) [15:48] Original menus are light/medium grey? [15:48] yeah, the original menus are grey [15:48] they look consistent, but they don't stand out from the rest of the window very much [15:48] i think that's the biggest gain [15:49] okay, I just realized I have no menus [15:49] and of course the panel-menus look a lot more consistent now [15:49] you don't? [15:49] no xfce4-appmenu? [15:49] in thunar there also should be menus [15:50] no, I upgraded to natty before alpha1. When Xfce4.8 came along, the application menu was broken [15:50] right [15:50] well, most other apps should have menus too [15:50] firefox, thunar etc [15:50] I never added it to the panel [15:50] even if you don't you'll see the difference in the session-menu [15:50] and the indicators [15:51] I have no indicators, either [15:51] right :) [15:51] I don't even have the right panels [15:51] well, nvm [15:51] it's okay, I have the greybird theme at least [15:51] the panels are the right colors [15:52] yeah [15:52] I just had it all set up, and it works real good for me [15:52] good to hear [15:52] well check out how it works with the latest greybird for you and let me know [15:52] that's why I have to install from the images every day or two [15:53] That's when I see the real changes we made [15:53] mmh [15:53] yeah the greybird changes i just talked about haven't been pushed to xubuntu yet, they're only in git [15:54] ok, i'll be back later [15:54] Got the download, will put it all in themes [16:01] micahg: can you take a look at the latest theme? [16:01] I like it [16:02] a lot [16:02] charlie-tca: maybe this evening [16:02] okay, thanks [16:07] dictionary plugin works good on panel, verve plugin - text typed matches the color of the background, and is not visible; xfce4-timer-plugin - scale is black, can not see the bar graph move [16:22] well, erased the wrong drive on my test install today; got to set a new install for the grandkids again [16:23] indicator plugin + nm-applet is broke [16:24] unity auto login is broken too [16:24] what did we break? [16:25] you said you removed that indicator thing [16:25] yep, when I add it back, nm-applet goes away [16:25] or rather is hidden [16:25] and I can't get it back unless I restart the panel [16:26] oh, yeah, it hides. Click where it should be, it should still work [16:26] i forgot that one [16:27] items list doesn't show it [16:27] should still be on the panel, maybe as a blank space [16:28] items should show everything in the panel [16:28] and no, I can't click it [16:28] hm, unity is nice, but very hard for new users to find anything that is not already in the launcher panel [16:28] micahg: no, items list doesn't show anything inside the indicator applet [16:28] ah, hmm [16:28] micahg: are you using a vertical or a horizontal panel? [16:29] * micahg tries adding back the indicator applet to see if nm-applet appears [16:29] horizontal [16:29] micahg: afaik indicators can only be used in a horizontal panel [16:29] k [16:29] do a "xfce4-panel --restart" after adding the indicator plugin [16:30] yeah, the current callback for xfce4-indicator-plugin in orientation-changed does nothing =] [16:30] hehe, in fact i read the code a while ago and was wondering why there was code for it that does nothing :) [16:30] indicator-plugin has no width [16:30] Isn't horizontal only going to lead to a lot of user issues? [16:31] charlie-tca: how do you mean? [16:31] charlie-tca: both our panels are horizontal atm and afaik the xubuntu/ubuntu panels always have been (without unity) [16:32] micahg: feel free to create a patch, I already heavily patched it to make it work [16:32] the dock works vertical [16:32] (I sent them upstream too) [16:32] mr_pouit: that doesn't sound good :-/ [16:33] well, it's definitely not cool, but many panel plugins work badly with vertical panels [16:33] i have to say vertical panel has improved a lot since 4.6 [16:33] e.g. the window-buttons [16:33] well, I'm just worried about the indicator plugin horizontal ATM [16:34] micahg: you mean the indicators work vertically but not horizontally? [16:34] yes, we default to horizontal, but users can make them vertical. If a default plugin fails then, we did that to them [16:34] ochosi: no, they don't work horizontally on the top panel (I haven't tried vertically) [16:35] charlie-tca: not sure that if a user changes something about the config we provide him with it's the best phrasing to say "we did that to them", because even technically they did it to themselves [16:35] charlie-tca: also, we can't fix everything that doesn't work upstream (even though mr_pouit does a hell of a job trying ;) ) [16:36] It is our position to provide the best possible user experience. We don't invalidate a bug because a user changed something. and we should not be telling the user, you moved something, so you broke it [16:36] * micahg will be uploading a new version of crashtastic midori tonight [16:37] micahg: nice, looking forward to testing midori again [16:37] micahg: huhu, I thought it had improved [16:37] By using the indicator applet, we created the defaults. To tell them they broke it by moving the panel is werong [16:37] s/werong/wrong [16:37] 0.3.0 is horrible [16:37] * micahg is hoping 0.3.2 is better (paperwork done :)) [16:38] charlie-tca: well, i didn't mean the bug is invalid, but i thought we already try to provide the best user experience by using the panel config we developed over the last months [16:38] * micahg is notorious for filing lots of FFes [16:39] well, we are. but did we know the indicator applet has to stay horizontal? [16:40] It's like the session menu bug. I have not had a failure since I removed that thing [16:40] hm, i wasn't consciously thinking of it, but i experienced it before [16:40] Lack of information makes for bad decisions, sometimes [16:40] * ochosi hasn't experienced any session-menu probs lately [16:41] I will say we seem to be making a better user experience that Unity is, right now [16:42] I think removing the menus is a bad thing for Ubuntu. It is not easy for the new user to find anything, including how to add new users [16:42] especially if the search doesn't work :-/ [16:43] even if it does, if you came from windows, what would you search for? [16:43] I just locked up Ubuntu completely, trying to set the screensaver [16:43] I'll say it, one last time: the "logout-to-gdm-instead-of-reboot" is not specific to xfsm-logout-plugin... [16:44] mr_pouit: I keep hearing that, but not using session menu solved it here, on three systems [16:44] well, good for you [16:44] for me, using applications > logout, I always return to gdm [16:45] OTOH, none were virtual machines [16:45] remove session menu, add Action Buttons, first restart goes to gdm, then it works [16:45] As long as session menu is in the panel, it fails [16:48] * micahg had that happen in a non-virtual machine as well [16:55] charlie-tca: what do you think of the new greybird-menus? [17:02] charlie-tca, the slideshow is pending on your opinion on the greybird menus. can you give one? [17:10] ochosi: I like it, a lot [17:10] It does show up much better [17:10] ok cool :) [17:10] happy to hear that [17:11] as stated above i tested it in natty and maverick with the known troublemaker-apps like firefox and libreoffice and it all seems to work great [17:12] wonderful! They really are more visible, and I don't think the contrast is bad [17:12] yeah, the contrast is the same as in the panel [17:12] so it should work ok for dark and bright icons [17:12] and i also tried to make the text very readable [17:12] knome: explain? [17:12] what about greybird menus? [17:13] he meant that the menus will show up in the screenshots for the slideshow and i'm about to do them ;) [17:13] will or might show up [17:13] It would be good to showcase them [17:13] yes, that's what i thought [17:13] especially since we'll show the application menu [17:15] :) [17:15] no problem then [17:18] and we have Oneiric Ocelot coming next! [17:20] oneiric is pronounced own-eye-rick [17:20] yeah, that'll definitely be harder for non-native speakers than "natty" or "maverick" [17:21] um, it is not really all that common for native speakers [17:21] hm yeah, i guessed so :) [17:21] it sounds a bit obscure [17:21] as in: obscure ocelot [17:22] http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/audio/lunaWAV/O01/O0101300.wav [17:22] is the official pronunciation [17:22] It just hurts my eyes to say it... :-( [20:45] oh, is lightdm not provided on upgrades? [20:45] and where should I file a missing menu category icon bug under? [20:46] lightdm is in the repository, but we are not using it yet [20:46] which category is missing the icon? [20:46] oh, ok [20:46] Education [20:47] any plans about 4.8 lucid ppa? [20:47] not yet, Sysi [20:48] http://forum.xfce.org/viewtopic.php?id=5712 koshi says there are some problems, i'm gonna try if it works self-compiled [20:48] micahg: I am looking [20:49] micahg: elementary-icon-theme, but upstream is on lp as well, so you might want to check their bzr branch before reporting [20:50] mr_pouit: ok, thanks [20:56] charlie-tca: where's the Firefox menu for you? in the panel or in Firefox? [20:56] firefox [20:57] Tell me we have not followed ubuntu's lead and moved them to the panel, please. [20:57] Unity is about the hardest, least accessible thing I have tried yet [20:58] the xfce4-indicator-plugin is claiming it supports it, so I lost my menus [20:59] remove indicator-appmenu [20:59] ugh, then I can't test unity :-/ [21:00] that's probably what's killing it though [21:00] I've a work-in-progress patch to blacklist it from xfce4-indicator-plugin if you want to test [21:00] mr_pouit: sure [21:00] PPA or patch [21:00] right now, to use unity requires a hardware keyboard and mouse [21:01] micahg: http://lionel.lefolgoc.net/misc/xfce4-indicator-plugin/debian-changes-0.2.0-0ubuntu3 [21:01] Those who can not use the keyboard are screwed [21:02] micahg: and the plugin config is http://lionel.lefolgoc.net/misc/xfce4-indicator-plugin/indicator-5.rc (for the default config, you can put it in /etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/xfce4/panel or in $HOME/.config/xfce4/panel/) [21:02] mr_pouit: that version appears to be in natty [21:03] yep, that's a quick hack [21:04] (I didn't bump the version locally) [21:04] k, thanks [21:14] mr_pouit: didn't seem to work, I restarted the panel after I rebuilt with it [21:18] micahg: does the plugin number of the config file match yours? [21:18] (in the default xubuntu config, indicator is the 5th plugin, but for you it might be different) [21:18] so you have to change the filename (indicator-XX.rc) [21:19] where do I find this info? [21:19] is this the list in the panel prefs? [21:19] usually, grep indicator ~/.config/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfce4-panel.xml [21:19] yeah, or in the prefs [21:20] (the tooltip will give you the internal name) [21:22] mr_pouit: it works, now the trick must be to get the numbers aligned :), it's 6 fo rme [21:22] and now it's beautiful :) [21:25] thanks for alpha testing ;-) [21:25] no problem, I'm happy to have nm-applet working :) [21:26] * micahg loves fixes that can be applies in under 5 minutes :) [21:26] *applied