[04:10] <micahg> mr_pouit: can I pull in the new xfce4-mixer?
[06:37] <mr_pouit> micahg: feel free to do it
[06:37] <micahg> mr_pouit: thanks, will do later this week
[06:37] <mr_pouit> (it's not really bugfix only, so I've been too lazy because of the possible paper work)
[06:37] <micahg> mr_pouit: I think we want it though, right?
[06:38] <micahg> I'm guessing we're less likely to have issues with teh 4.8 mixer than the 4.6 one
[06:40] <mr_pouit> We already ship the most important bugfixes as patches
[06:41] <mr_pouit> but the libxfce4ui port might be interesting (although we won't get rid of libxfcegui4 anytime soon)
[06:41] <micahg> mr_pouit: I actually don't have the xfce4-mixer anymore after I upgraded to natty, figured being 4.6.x might be part of the reason
[06:41]  * micahg wants to get rid of the gnome-media stuff
[06:42] <mr_pouit> micahg: mmh, what do you mean?
[06:43] <micahg> gnome-media applets replaced xfce4-mixer in my panel on upgrade
[06:43] <micahg> also, I haven't been able to get nm-applet back on the panel
[06:43] <micahg> I couldn't see the session applet until I removed the indicator applet
[06:46] <mr_pouit> A lot of useless things are probably pulled in on upgrades :/
[06:46] <mr_pouit> e.g. gnome-media, gnome-system-monitor, and indicator-appmenu
[06:48] <mr_pouit> (xfce4-mixer should still be installable though, even if it's not in the default panel config)
[15:34] <charlie-tca> Good morning
[15:35] <micahg> good morning
[15:35] <micahg> I found something else that should go in the launcher, pidgin :)
[15:35]  * micahg is on naowtty n
[15:35] <micahg> *natty now
[15:36] <charlie-tca> pidgin is in the indicator panel, you don't need a launcher to start it
[15:36] <charlie-tca> just click the envelope in the panel
[15:36] <micahg> that's thunderbird 
[15:37] <charlie-tca> no, the top panel has an envelope that is the indicators, it should start pidgin there
[15:38]  * micahg thinks he got rid of that
[15:38] <charlie-tca> heh
[15:39] <charlie-tca> Well, that should start pidgin for you, though. lol
[15:40] <charlie-tca> The good thing is you can drag and drop a launcher into the panel
[15:42] <micahg> indicators were broke on the first load, maybe I'll try them again tomorrow (have work to do today :))
[15:42] <charlie-tca> Just add pidgin to the launcher panel. I never use it, myself.
[15:43] <ochosi> hey charlie-tca 
[15:43] <charlie-tca> Hello, ochosi 
[15:43] <ochosi> i fixed a few problems in greybird over the weekend, and there was also one more thing i wanted to propose
[15:44] <ochosi> at first i wanted to make the indicator-menus fit the panel-color (atm they are bright like all other menus)
[15:45] <ochosi> and then i realized that if i make them dark, it seems inconsistent with the app-menu and the session-menu
[15:45] <charlie-tca> Aren't they a menu, too?
[15:45] <ochosi> yeah, but that's the thing:
[15:45] <ochosi> appmenu and session-menu are generic gtk-menus, so you can't theme them directly without theming all the other menus as well
[15:45] <ochosi> so basically i went ahead and tried that
[15:46] <ochosi> in fact i think it makes the menus in all applications stand out a little more, they're more visible
[15:46] <ochosi> but you could also argue that a bright menubar with a dark menu looks inconsistent
[15:46] <ochosi> anyhow, i think it'd be best if you gave it a try yourself
[15:47] <charlie-tca> okay, where do I grab it?
[15:47] <ochosi> btw, there are no applications that have troubles with this, i fixed ooo, firefox etc. and all of them are ok
[15:47] <ochosi> charlie-tca: https://github.com/shimmerproject/Greybird/archives/master
[15:48] <ochosi> it's rather easy to switch the dark menus on and off
[15:48] <ochosi> i can comment the code in a way that a user can quickly switch back to bright/dark menus (whatever we decide for in the end)
[15:48] <charlie-tca> Original menus are light/medium grey?
[15:48] <ochosi> yeah, the original menus are grey
[15:48] <ochosi> they look consistent, but they don't stand out from the rest of the window very much
[15:48] <ochosi> i think that's the biggest gain
[15:49] <charlie-tca> okay, I just realized I have no menus 
[15:49] <ochosi> and of course the panel-menus look a lot more consistent now
[15:49] <ochosi> you don't?
[15:49] <ochosi> no xfce4-appmenu?
[15:49] <ochosi> in thunar there also should be menus
[15:50] <charlie-tca> no, I upgraded to natty before alpha1. When Xfce4.8 came along, the application menu was broken
[15:50] <ochosi> right
[15:50] <ochosi> well, most other apps should have menus too
[15:50] <ochosi> firefox, thunar etc
[15:50] <charlie-tca> I never added it to the panel
[15:50] <ochosi> even if you don't you'll see the difference in the session-menu
[15:50] <ochosi> and the indicators
[15:51] <charlie-tca> I have no indicators, either
[15:51] <ochosi> right :)
[15:51] <charlie-tca> I don't even have the right panels
[15:51] <ochosi> well, nvm
[15:51] <charlie-tca> it's okay, I have the greybird theme at least
[15:51] <charlie-tca> the panels are the right colors
[15:52] <ochosi> yeah
[15:52] <charlie-tca> I just had it all set up, and it works real good for me
[15:52] <ochosi> good to hear
[15:52] <ochosi> well check out how it works with the latest greybird for you and let me know
[15:52] <charlie-tca> that's why I have to install from the images every day or two
[15:53] <charlie-tca> That's when I see the real changes we made
[15:53] <ochosi> mmh
[15:53] <ochosi> yeah the greybird changes i just talked about haven't been pushed to xubuntu yet, they're only in git
[15:54] <ochosi> ok, i'll be back later
[15:54] <charlie-tca> Got the download, will put it all in themes
[16:01] <charlie-tca> micahg: can you take a look at the latest theme?
[16:01] <charlie-tca> I like it
[16:02] <charlie-tca> a lot
[16:02] <micahg> charlie-tca: maybe this evening
[16:02] <charlie-tca> okay, thanks
[16:07] <charlie-tca> dictionary plugin works good on panel, verve plugin - text typed matches the color of the background, and is not visible; xfce4-timer-plugin - scale is black, can not see the bar graph move
[16:22] <charlie-tca> well, erased the wrong drive on my test install today; got to set a new install for the grandkids again
[16:23] <micahg> indicator plugin + nm-applet is broke
[16:24] <charlie-tca> unity auto login is broken too
[16:24] <charlie-tca> what did we break?
[16:25] <charlie-tca> you said you removed that indicator thing
[16:25] <micahg> yep, when I add it back, nm-applet goes away
[16:25] <micahg> or rather is hidden
[16:25] <micahg> and I can't get it back unless I restart the panel
[16:26] <charlie-tca> oh, yeah, it hides. Click where it should be, it should still work
[16:26] <charlie-tca> i forgot that one
[16:27] <micahg> items list doesn't show it
[16:27] <charlie-tca> should still be on the panel, maybe as a blank space
[16:28] <micahg> items should show everything in the panel
[16:28] <micahg> and no, I can't click it
[16:28] <charlie-tca> hm, unity is nice, but very hard for new users to find anything that is not already in the launcher panel
[16:28] <ochosi> micahg: no, items list doesn't show anything inside the indicator applet
[16:28] <micahg> ah, hmm
[16:28] <ochosi> micahg: are you using a vertical or a horizontal panel?
[16:29]  * micahg tries adding back the indicator applet to see if nm-applet appears
[16:29] <micahg> horizontal
[16:29] <ochosi> micahg: afaik indicators can only be used in a horizontal panel
[16:29] <ochosi> k
[16:29] <ochosi> do a "xfce4-panel --restart" after adding the indicator plugin
[16:30] <mr_pouit> yeah, the current callback for xfce4-indicator-plugin in orientation-changed does nothing =]
[16:30] <ochosi> hehe, in fact i read the code a while ago and was wondering why there was code for it that does nothing :)
[16:30] <micahg> indicator-plugin has no width
[16:30] <charlie-tca> Isn't horizontal only going to lead to a lot of user issues?
[16:31] <ochosi> charlie-tca: how do you mean?
[16:31] <ochosi> charlie-tca: both our panels are horizontal atm and afaik the xubuntu/ubuntu panels always have been (without unity)
[16:32] <mr_pouit> micahg: feel free to create a patch, I already heavily patched it to make it work
[16:32] <micahg> the dock works vertical
[16:32] <mr_pouit> (I sent them upstream too)
[16:32] <micahg> mr_pouit: that doesn't sound good :-/
[16:33] <mr_pouit> well, it's definitely not cool, but many panel plugins work badly with vertical panels
[16:33] <ochosi> i have to say vertical panel has improved a lot since 4.6
[16:33] <ochosi> e.g. the window-buttons
[16:33] <micahg> well, I'm just worried about the indicator plugin horizontal ATM
[16:34] <ochosi> micahg: you mean the indicators work vertically but not horizontally?
[16:34] <charlie-tca> yes, we default to horizontal, but users can make them vertical. If a default plugin fails then, we did that to them
[16:34] <micahg> ochosi: no, they don't work horizontally on the top panel (I haven't tried vertically)
[16:35] <ochosi> charlie-tca: not sure that if a user changes something about the config we provide him with it's the best phrasing to say "we did that to them", because even technically they did it to themselves
[16:35] <ochosi> charlie-tca: also, we can't fix everything that doesn't work upstream (even though mr_pouit does a hell of a job trying ;) )
[16:36] <charlie-tca> It is our position to provide the best possible user experience. We don't invalidate a bug because a user changed something. and we should not be telling the user, you moved something, so you broke it
[16:36]  * micahg will be uploading a new version of crashtastic midori tonight
[16:37] <ochosi> micahg: nice, looking forward to testing midori again
[16:37] <mr_pouit> micahg: huhu, I thought it had improved
[16:37] <charlie-tca> By using the indicator applet, we created the defaults. To tell them they broke it by moving the panel is werong
[16:37] <charlie-tca> s/werong/wrong
[16:37] <micahg> 0.3.0 is horrible
[16:37]  * micahg is hoping 0.3.2 is better (paperwork done :))
[16:38] <ochosi> charlie-tca: well, i didn't mean the bug is invalid, but i thought we already try to provide the best user experience by using the panel config we developed over the last months
[16:38]  * micahg is notorious for filing lots of FFes
[16:39] <charlie-tca> well, we are. but did we know the indicator applet has to stay horizontal?
[16:40] <charlie-tca> It's like the session menu bug. I have not had a failure since I removed that thing
[16:40] <ochosi> hm, i wasn't consciously thinking of it, but i experienced it before
[16:40] <charlie-tca> Lack of information makes for bad decisions, sometimes
[16:40]  * ochosi hasn't experienced any session-menu probs lately
[16:41] <charlie-tca> I will say we seem to be making a better user experience that Unity is, right now
[16:42] <charlie-tca> I think removing the menus is a bad thing for Ubuntu. It is not easy for the new user to find anything, including how to add new users
[16:42] <micahg> especially if the search doesn't work :-/
[16:43] <charlie-tca> even if it does, if you came from windows, what would you search for?
[16:43] <charlie-tca> I just locked up Ubuntu completely, trying to set the screensaver
[16:43] <mr_pouit> I'll say it, one last time: the "logout-to-gdm-instead-of-reboot" is not specific to xfsm-logout-plugin...
[16:44] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: I keep hearing that, but not using session menu solved it here, on three systems
[16:44] <mr_pouit> well, good for you
[16:44] <mr_pouit> for me, using applications > logout, I always return to gdm
[16:45] <charlie-tca> OTOH, none were virtual machines
[16:45] <charlie-tca> remove session menu, add Action Buttons, first restart goes to gdm, then it works
[16:45] <charlie-tca> As long as session menu is in the panel, it fails
[16:48]  * micahg had that happen in a non-virtual machine as well
[16:55] <ochosi> charlie-tca: what do you think of the new greybird-menus?
[17:02] <knome> charlie-tca, the slideshow is pending on your opinion on the greybird menus. can you give one?
[17:10] <charlie-tca> ochosi: I like it, a lot
[17:10] <charlie-tca> It does show up much better
[17:10] <ochosi> ok cool :)
[17:10] <ochosi> happy to hear that
[17:11] <ochosi> as stated above i tested it in natty and maverick with the known troublemaker-apps like firefox and libreoffice and it all seems to work great
[17:12] <charlie-tca> wonderful! They really are more visible, and I don't think the contrast is bad
[17:12] <ochosi> yeah, the contrast is the same as in the panel
[17:12] <ochosi> so it should work ok for dark and bright icons
[17:12] <ochosi> and i also tried to make the text very readable
[17:12] <charlie-tca> knome: explain?
[17:12] <charlie-tca> what about greybird menus?
[17:13] <ochosi> he meant that the menus will show up in the screenshots for the slideshow and i'm about to do them ;)
[17:13] <ochosi> will or might show up
[17:13] <charlie-tca> It would be good to showcase them
[17:13] <ochosi> yes, that's what i thought
[17:13] <ochosi> especially since we'll show the application menu
[17:15] <knome> :)
[17:15] <knome> no problem then
[17:18] <charlie-tca> and we have Oneiric Ocelot coming next!
[17:20] <charlie-tca> oneiric is pronounced own-eye-rick
[17:20] <ochosi> yeah, that'll definitely be harder for non-native speakers than "natty" or "maverick"
[17:21] <charlie-tca> um, it is not really all that common for native speakers
[17:21] <ochosi> hm yeah, i guessed so :)
[17:21] <ochosi> it sounds a bit obscure
[17:21] <ochosi> as in: obscure ocelot
[17:22] <charlie-tca> http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/audio/lunaWAV/O01/O0101300.wav
[17:22] <charlie-tca> is the official pronunciation
[17:22] <charlie-tca> It just hurts my eyes to say it... :-(
[20:45] <micahg> oh, is lightdm not provided on upgrades?
[20:45] <micahg> and where should I file a missing menu category icon bug under?
[20:46] <charlie-tca> lightdm is in the repository, but we are not using it yet
[20:46] <charlie-tca> which category is missing the icon?
[20:46] <micahg> oh, ok
[20:46] <micahg> Education
[20:47] <Sysi> any plans about 4.8 lucid ppa?
[20:47] <charlie-tca> not yet, Sysi 
[20:48] <Sysi> http://forum.xfce.org/viewtopic.php?id=5712 koshi says there are some problems, i'm gonna try if it works self-compiled
[20:48] <charlie-tca> micahg: I am looking
[20:49] <mr_pouit> micahg: elementary-icon-theme, but upstream is on lp as well, so you might want to check their bzr branch before reporting
[20:50] <micahg> mr_pouit: ok, thanks
[20:56] <micahg> charlie-tca: where's the Firefox menu for you?  in the panel or in Firefox?
[20:56] <charlie-tca> firefox
[20:57] <charlie-tca> Tell me we have not followed ubuntu's lead and moved them to the panel, please.
[20:57] <charlie-tca> Unity is about the hardest, least accessible thing I have tried yet
[20:58] <micahg> the xfce4-indicator-plugin is claiming it supports it, so I lost my menus
[20:59] <mr_pouit> remove indicator-appmenu
[20:59] <micahg> ugh, then I can't test unity :-/
[21:00] <micahg> that's probably what's killing it though
[21:00] <mr_pouit> I've a work-in-progress patch to blacklist it from xfce4-indicator-plugin if you want to test
[21:00] <micahg> mr_pouit: sure
[21:00] <micahg> PPA or patch
[21:00] <charlie-tca> right now, to use unity requires a hardware keyboard and mouse
[21:01] <mr_pouit> micahg: http://lionel.lefolgoc.net/misc/xfce4-indicator-plugin/debian-changes-0.2.0-0ubuntu3
[21:01] <charlie-tca> Those who can not use the keyboard are screwed
[21:02] <mr_pouit> micahg: and the plugin config is http://lionel.lefolgoc.net/misc/xfce4-indicator-plugin/indicator-5.rc (for the default config, you can put it in /etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/xfce4/panel or in $HOME/.config/xfce4/panel/)
[21:02] <micahg> mr_pouit: that version appears to be in natty
[21:03] <mr_pouit> yep, that's a quick hack
[21:04] <mr_pouit> (I didn't bump the version locally)
[21:04] <micahg> k, thanks
[21:14] <micahg> mr_pouit: didn't seem to work, I restarted the panel after I rebuilt with it
[21:18] <mr_pouit> micahg: does the plugin number of the config file match yours?
[21:18] <mr_pouit> (in the default xubuntu config, indicator is the 5th plugin, but for you it might be different)
[21:18] <mr_pouit> so you have to change the filename (indicator-XX.rc)
[21:19] <micahg> where do I find this info?
[21:19] <micahg> is this the list in the panel prefs?
[21:19] <mr_pouit> usually, grep indicator ~/.config/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfce4-panel.xml
[21:19] <mr_pouit> yeah, or in the prefs
[21:20] <mr_pouit> (the tooltip will give you the internal name)
[21:22] <micahg> mr_pouit: it works, now the trick must be to get the numbers aligned :), it's 6 fo rme
[21:22] <micahg> and now it's beautiful :)
[21:25] <mr_pouit> thanks for alpha testing ;-)
[21:25] <micahg> no problem, I'm happy to have nm-applet working :)
[21:26]  * micahg loves fixes that can be applies in under 5 minutes :)
[21:26] <micahg> *applied