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=== Guest2736 is now known as ogra_
=== Nubae___ is now known as Nubae
=== ogra_ is now known as ogra
mgariepygood morning everyone13:23
doctormoIt's funny18:04
doctormo#edubuntu causes empathy to disconnect from irc18:05
highvoltagedoctormo: got my PM's?18:07
doctormohighvoltage: Ah yes, I see them. will send you updates after today's edits.18:08
doctormoI'd like to make it look better... had to scrap a few iterations.18:08
highvoltagedoctormo: ok, great. no pressure :)18:09
Roasted_good afternoon18:41
Roasted_been a long time, mhall11918:41
Roasted_mhall119, have you used the edubuntu package?18:41
mhall119some, i've been collaborating with them18:41
Roasted_what exactly does edubuntu contain and aim for, in terms of grade levels18:42
mhall119or, at least, I'm supposed to be collaborating with them, lately I've been doing a whole lot of nothing :(18:42
Roasted_is it something that can be for any grade level?18:42
mhall119Roasted_: one second, I'll get the list18:42
Roasted_nice. thanks.18:42
mhall119https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/AppGuide is from 10.1018:42
mhall119there have been a few additions for 11.0418:43
Roasted_I was asked if we could integrate ubuntu into our windows environment, so I'm trying to do that now.18:43
Roasted_I was just trying to find somebody else out there who may be in the position I'm in, but has already done it.18:43
Roasted_I have no problem being the guinea pig but a little re-assurance from another user would be nice. :P18:43
Roasted_so by installing edubuntu, I get ALL of this?18:44
mhall119http://www.revolutionlinux.com/ is a canadian company that has done several school installs18:44
Roasted_because I'm starting off with a few systems at the HS level, but if Edubuntu is geared for k-5... etc.18:44
mhall119a couple of the Edubuntu devs work there18:44
mhall119highvoltage: ^^18:44
mhall119stgraber: ^^18:44
Roasted_I really hope this takes off.18:44
Roasted_It would be so great to see an open source OS in the classroom.18:44
mhall119edubuntu covers the entire US public school spectrum18:44
mhall119hi mgariepy18:45
Roasted_in particular I'm curious if anybody has integrated ubuntu to a windows domain and how its faired for them18:46
Roasted_I got a few ubuntu systems on the domain but I'm just still sketchy on the whole idea since its a MS domain and all18:46
mhall119Roasted_: there's also http://www.partimus.org/ out of California18:46
Roasted_oh wow. thin clients...18:46
mhall119Roasted_: you want to use active directory for authentication or something like that?18:46
Roasted_we have some thin clients that bombed. HARD.18:47
Roasted_I wonder if these would be any different18:47
mhall119LTSP lets you use older second-hand computers as cheap thin clients18:47
Roasted_well we're using AD right now. The idea isn't to tip the scale and re-vamp the entire system. The idea is to add a few linux boxes and see what happens.18:47
Roasted_LTSP... what's the full name for that?18:47
mhall119Linux Terminal Server Project18:47
mgariepyRoasted_, I work for revolution linux and we have integrated in windows enviroment18:47
mhall119it comes on the Edubuntu DVD18:47
Roasted_mgariepy, how do you add your systems to a windows domain?18:48
mgariepyWe do desktop/laptop management and ltsp-cluster as well18:48
Roasted_do you use likewise open by chance?18:48
mgariepywe have been using likewise-open with lucid yes18:48
Roasted_nice, nice.18:49
mhall119Roasted_: check out http://edubuntu.org/weblive to try out a live system righ tnow18:49
Roasted_glad to know I made a wise move then, lol... that's what I'm toying with now. version 6 I believe on 10.04.218:49
Roasted_mgariepy, how familiar are you with ncomputing?18:50
highvoltagehey Roasted_18:50
Roasted_whats up highvoltage18:50
highvoltagethings are good and you?18:50
mgariepyRoasted_, not familiar with that18:50
Roasted_ah not too bad. updating a windows image and doing a little light reading here.18:50
highvoltageI've used ncomputing before. It's ok for smaller setups but it doesn't scale18:50
Roasted_we have ncomputing at the moment...18:50
Roasted_we have one massive server trying to host a lab of 30 systems.18:51
highvoltageif you want to use it in larger setups you need to manage those systems, and might as well switch to usual desktops anyway18:51
Roasted_we're rebooting the server daily for it to operate with the thin clients successfully.18:51
Roasted_I'm far more curious about what info I can get about ubuntu in the classroom in general, but I hadnt thought about linux thin clients.18:52
highvoltageouch, so you're using that ncomputing unit that basically sends all the video over the network? that's like networking murder :)18:52
Roasted_we have it isolated on its own gigabit switch. but yeah, its rough.18:52
Roasted_utilizing old computers as thin clients isn't a very attractive option for classrooms, in my opinion, as we want there to be a power saving factor there too and using old hardware doesnt translate to power savings.18:53
Roasted_however, using old computers would be nice anyway, as we have those one-or-two systems in the back of each classroom for various tasks.18:53
highvoltagepersonally I'm not a big fan of the old computers idea18:53
highvoltageI've done it in more than 200 schools before and you end up spending more money replacing old hardware all the time18:54
Roasted_I'm not either, but at the same token, I hate to throw out hardware that *IS* currently working.18:54
Roasted_we tend to treat classroom computers as a gift.18:54
Roasted_if it dies, it's gone.18:54
Roasted_but while we have it, here, use it.18:54
highvoltagenewer computers have the benefit (at least on LTSP) that you can run some applications locally, it greatly improves end-user and networking performance18:54
Roasted_I see a screenshot here of an EEE thin client. what's that lil box cost?18:55
highvoltagebut I guess many computers that are "old" these days are ones that I would probably consider fairly recent :)18:55
highvoltagemy thin client at work is a EEE. I don't know what it cost us but it works great18:55
highvoltagemgariepy: do you know what this machine cost?18:56
mgariepyRoasted_, i think it around 200$ but i can't promise anything18:56
highvoltage(it's this one, btw http://event.asus.com/eeetop/)18:57
Roasted_highvoltage, do you know what kind of ratio you can work with with these units to the server?18:59
Roasted_like can 1 quad core/16gb server manage a lab of 30 eee boxes?18:59
Roasted_or am I stretching it far too thin?18:59
highvoltageRoasted_: well, the great thing about them is that they have enough cpu power and ram to run apps locally, so you can reduce cpu load and networking requirements quite a lot19:00
Roasted_highvoltage, does the end user see an ubuntu desktop?19:00
highvoltageRoasted_: they should be fine with that server, if it was me I'd probably add another gigabit network card and bond them just maximise network traffic to the desktops19:01
doctormohighvoltage: OK I have a preview19:01
highvoltageRoasted_: yep, they do indeed. if they install via edubuntu they'll get an edubuntu desktop, which is very similar19:01
highvoltageRoasted_: here are some screenshots: http://edubuntu.org/screenshots19:01
highvoltageRoasted_: the reason why I prefer LTSP way over things like ncomputing is that you can grow it with LTSP Cluster19:02
highvoltageRoasted_: so when the school decides to expand the lab or put some workstations into classrooms, then you can also add more servers and split the load of the clients accross the servers19:02
Roasted_highvoltage, well I think our server is actually two quad cores, 32gb ram, and 4 gigabit network cards... and it struggles with ncomputing for 30 seats...19:03
Roasted_however we're in an older building. I think we're on cat5 (non e) but I don't thin kthe ncomputing boxes have a 1000 uplink anyway. Ithink they're limited by 100 as is.19:04
mgariepyRoasted_, i assure you with LTSP-cluster this server would be idle.19:04
Roasted_what does LTSP stand for19:04
highvoltageRoasted_: wow, yeah that machine will be fine then :)19:04
highvoltageRoasted_: Linux Terminal Server Project19:05
mgariepyLinux Terminal Server Project19:05
Roasted_you guys sure are giving me a lot to think about here.19:05
mgariepyyou are typing too fase highvoltage19:05
Roasted_no offense but this would certainly have to be small scale for us to heavily consider it. I'm thinking about a good test area... perhaps a bench of 8 systems in a library.19:05
Roasted_would a dual core/3gb RAM desktop handle 8 systems?19:05
Roasted_well, 719:05
highvoltageRoasted_: oh, I forgot to tell you, there's also LTSP live on edubuntu, it allows you to boot from a live USB disk and try out LTSP on a server19:05
Roasted_also - what host OS do you use for LTSP? Ubuntu desktop? Ubuntu server?19:06
Roasted_CentOS or something else?19:06
highvoltageRoasted_: it will be a bit slower than a full installation, but it will give you an idea of what it's capable of already19:06
mgariepyRoasted_, we use ubuntu server, with desktop packages19:06
highvoltageI doubt there's anyone in here that wouldn't say Ubuntu :)19:06
Roasted_Is LTSP only compatible with certain thin client boxes? Or can you utilize most thin client boxes for use with LTSP?19:07
mgariepyRoasted_, usualy if you can run linux on the client it will work with LTSP19:07
Roasted_yeah. that's the only thing I'm not sur eof.19:07
Roasted_we have a microsoft thinpoint server or something like that now.19:07
Roasted_err, multipoint19:08
Roasted_it's a decent HP desktop with 7 boxes connected to it locally through HP thin clients.19:08
highvoltageRoasted_: technically, anything that will work with ubuntu should work. you probably want to stick with intel architecture (like i686 and amd64) and also intel chipsets. intel graphics/sound/etc is well supported. nvidia and ati are getting a *lot* better, but there may be some regressions as their drivers are under heavy development19:08
Roasted_yeah. I hear ya there.19:08
Roasted_So, let's say I want to get started. How would I do this? Install Ubuntu 10.04.2 64 bit (desktop edition okay I hope?) and then what?19:09
highvoltageRoasted_: if you're just getting started, I would recommend that you do it with Edubuntu 11.04 amd64 instead19:10
Roasted_hold that thought...19:10
Roasted_Edubuntu = LTSP?19:10
highvoltageRoasted_: sorry, I meant 10.1019:10
Roasted_Do I need Edubuntu to use LTSP?19:11
highvoltageRoasted_: nope, it just makes it super-easy to install19:11
Roasted_I see. I see...19:11
Roasted_Is it in the software center or a deb package?19:11
highvoltageRoasted_: it has a modified installer that includes LTSP, so you don't have to do any command-line stuff to get it running19:11
doctormohighvoltage: http://divajutta.com/doctormo/art/edu/perspective.png19:11
highvoltageRoasted_: edubuntu is an iso image that you can download: http://edubuntu.org/download19:12
Roasted_How does Edubuntu differ from whats in software center vs iso?19:12
doctormoLTSP == Long Term Sock Protector?19:12
doctormoRoasted_: All distros based around Ubuntu have a different set of default packages on the iso.19:13
doctormoLots of them make sure to upload new and interesting packages also19:13
Roasted_So Edubuntu.iso would be smarter than Ubuntu.iso + Edubuntu package?19:13
doctormoBut that means Ubuntu classic gets access to Edubuntu packages.19:13
Roasted_Or am I totally lost...19:13
highvoltageRoasted_: it has the same software center, and shares the same archives, it just has other defaults and other default packages installed. you can install an ubuntu machine too, it's fine, but you'll have to install LTSP manually. if you're already comfortable with that then feel free :)19:13
Roasted_Well I AM a terminal junkie, but if there's an easier way, I'm all for it.19:14
Roasted_I'm very curious if some of our spare ncomputing boxes can handle LTSP...19:14
highvoltageRoasted_: I think the easier option is good for just getting started and getting the concepts and how it works and where things happen. if you want to do a more specific installation and want to do more things manually, it will then be easier once you've done it the easy way19:15
Roasted_I agree.19:15
Roasted_Looks like I'll have a fun little project tomorrow.19:15
highvoltageRoasted_: if those ncomputing boxes are anything like the ones I've seen before, then they're pretty much useless. do you have a link to the ones you've bought?19:15
Roasted_Where within Edubuntu would I install LTSP? I'm just trying to think about how I go about it once I'm in.19:16
Roasted_highvoltage, let me google for one quick.19:16
highvoltagedoctormo: I have it open and will look a bit closer, thanks :)19:16
Roasted_highvoltage, we have a few of these laying around. http://www.ncomputing.com/products-lseries19:16
highvoltageRoasted_: yeah those units won't work, LTSP needs thin clients with local CPUs19:21
Roasted_either way, if its cheaper than a new lab the bossman might like it19:21
Roasted_but gotta start small scale. I'm curious if our hp boxes would work.19:22
Roasted_I think they have a small chip inside but I'm not positive.19:22
mgariepywaht hp thin client do you have ?19:22
Roasted_why does this look so flipping awesome to me. suddenly my job is exciting again.19:22
highvoltageindeed, a bit of experimentation with different technologies cost very little and can save you quite a lot down the line19:22
Roasted_I'm not sure... I'm a few miles away in another school at the moment. :(19:22
mgariepyhp-5745 works really great19:23
highvoltageRoasted_: yeah they have an integrated chip, but it's some custom embedded system on a chip thingy, nothing that can run Linux, unfortunately19:23
Roasted_either way19:23
Roasted_if its cheaper than a new lab, it may be easier to integrate19:24
Roasted_what kind of limitations do these boxes have? Like if we get the EEE boxes as pictured, can they run gimp? flash? etc locally?19:24
highvoltageRoasted_: I do that pretty much every day on my eeetop19:26
mgariepyRoasted_, usually we run gimp on the server and firefox and flash on the thin client19:26
Roasted_mgariepy, really? is it easy to specify which does what?19:26
highvoltagewell, I use Chrome on my thin client :) (but a lot of other users here use firefox)19:26
doctormohighvoltage: Remembered to put in sky, update in a second19:27
highvoltageRoasted_: ltsp has a configuration file where you can specify what clients should run on their own cpu. the rest runs on the server19:27
Roasted_highvoltage, and that trickles to EVERYBODY?19:27
mgariepyyeah, it mostly depend on the software present on your ltsp chroot and a configuration variable for LTSP19:27
Roasted_like if I say on the server, run this this and this locally, it auto-pushes everything not in the list to the server?19:28
Roasted_I'm trying to dig up those EEE thin clients in the picture. I'm having a hardt ime finding it, as ASUS just links me to Revo Linux which doesn't have any specs on that box itself (price, spec, etc) Where else can I find it?19:28
mgariepyRoasted_, you can also run locally an application on a client that supports it and not on another client that doesn't have enough ram.19:28
highvoltagenewegg has the new model, it's more than $200 though: http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883220039&Tpk=eee%20top19:29
highvoltagemgariepy: I think that $200 was for the second hand ones we had in storage19:30
highvoltageah, or unless it's just the ebox: http://www.newegg.ca/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=eee+box&x=0&y=019:30
Roasted_thats not a thin client box19:30
Roasted_more like it :P19:31
Roasted_still a bit larger than I thought it was compared to the picture.19:31
highvoltageI was talking about the eeetop because that's the one I have on my desk19:31
Roasted_is that the model you have highvoltage ?19:31
mgariepythe 200 is for OEM system wihtout hdd and stuff..19:31
highvoltagebut the eeebox and eeetop has pretty much the same hardware (except for the touchscreen)19:31
highvoltagemgariepy: ah, cool. I didn't realise you can buy it like that19:31
Roasted_heres a gizmo http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&safe=active&noj=1&q=eee+box&biw=1280&bih=661&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=2738412403065697596&sa=X&ei=HIR2TdjvHML88Ab3ncHzCA&ved=0CHIQ8wIwBQ#19:32
Roasted_we have monitors, mice, keyboards, etc.19:32
Roasted_I'm talking just the BOX itself.19:32
Roasted_and if it needs hdd/ram/whatever. I'm seeing some with,s ome without.19:32
highvoltageyeah you probably just want to drop the hdd19:32
Roasted_ram would help tho I would assume19:33
Roasted_looks like netbook spec... 1gb ram 1.6ghz atom19:33
Roasted_CDW has them in stock, which is a vendor we use a lot. nice nice...19:33
Roasted_highvoltage, do you think theres NO way for me to use the ncomputing box as a test? I'd like to set up a 1 to 1 (ubuntu desktop as server and one thin client box) to at least show the boss if possible.19:34
Roasted_then we could utilize the "real" gear (if he goes for it) with EEE box's or whatever.19:34
highvoltageRoasted_: yep, more ram would be useful for local apps, and is usually cheaper to add up-front19:35
highvoltageRoasted_: it's impossible for the ncomputing machines to boot a linux kernel, since they don't have a CPU and RAM, it's like trying to install Linux on a VCR.19:36
Roasted_I tried, right?19:36
Roasted_man, you guys gave me a ton to look over19:36
Roasted_I appreciate your help highvoltage + mgariepy19:36
mhall119I'm sure somewhere someone has a VCR running Debian19:37
Roasted_I definitely want to look into this more. I just wish our in-house gear was up to par to use to test. school districts are getting hairy with spending now, especially experimental spending. :(19:37
highvoltageyou're welcome, the idea with edubuntu is to make it easier to do stuff and get the information, but we've still got a long way to go to make it completely brain dead. we'll get there one day :)19:37
Roasted_dumb question tho19:37
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mgariepyyou are welcome Roasted_19:38
Roasted_ultimately in a windows environment, by adding the edubuntu server to the domain via likewise open, that thereby makes all of the thin client end users able to authenticate to the domain accordingly, right?19:38
highvoltageRoasted_: I *think* you might have to add one or two lines to the ssh configuration file, but other than that it might just work out of the box19:39
mgariepyRoasted_, once likewise-open is configured correctly, and the machine has joined the domain everybody should be able to authenticate yes19:39
Roasted_good deal.19:39
highvoltageRoasted_: I vaguely remember adding something to the config file so that users wouldn't have to type out their domain19:39
Roasted_oh I don't care if they have to type out the domain19:39
Roasted_they have to do it anyway for webmail at home19:39
Roasted_it's not like it would be hard to make them aware to do it here19:40
Roasted_with that said, I need to finish up a few tickets while this windows install gets done with its bajillion windows updates19:40
highvoltageRoasted_: ah ok19:40
Roasted_I greatly appreciate the help guys19:40
Roasted_gave me a TON to think about and research19:40
mhall119good luck Roasted_19:40
Roasted_mucho thanks everyone19:40
Roasted_whoa. does edubuntu come with italc?19:54
Roasted_(I'm back btw)19:54
Roasted_Secondly, I'm an idiot. Instead of worrying about testing in a small test environment with thin client boxes we don't have, I could CERTAINLY use some older desktops sitting around as my test-bed for this exact purpose19:56
Roasted_and with that, I need to go. but anyway, thanks.19:57
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