[13:23] <mgariepy> good morning everyone
[18:04] <doctormo> It's funny
[18:05] <doctormo> #edubuntu causes empathy to disconnect from irc
[18:05] <HedgeMage> weird
[18:07] <highvoltage> doctormo: got my PM's?
[18:08] <doctormo> highvoltage: Ah yes, I see them. will send you updates after today's edits.
[18:08] <doctormo> I'd like to make it look better... had to scrap a few iterations.
[18:09] <highvoltage> doctormo: ok, great. no pressure :)
[18:41] <Roasted_> good afternoon
[18:41] <mhall119> hi
[18:41] <mhall119> :)
[18:41] <Roasted_> been a long time, mhall119
[18:41] <Roasted_> mhall119, have you used the edubuntu package?
[18:41] <mhall119> some, i've been collaborating with them
[18:42] <Roasted_> what exactly does edubuntu contain and aim for, in terms of grade levels
[18:42] <mhall119> or, at least, I'm supposed to be collaborating with them, lately I've been doing a whole lot of nothing :(
[18:42] <Roasted_> is it something that can be for any grade level?
[18:42] <mhall119> Roasted_: one second, I'll get the list
[18:42] <Roasted_> nice. thanks.
[18:42] <mhall119> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/AppGuide is from 10.10
[18:43] <mhall119> there have been a few additions for 11.04
[18:43] <Roasted_> I was asked if we could integrate ubuntu into our windows environment, so I'm trying to do that now.
[18:43] <Roasted_> I was just trying to find somebody else out there who may be in the position I'm in, but has already done it.
[18:43] <Roasted_> I have no problem being the guinea pig but a little re-assurance from another user would be nice. :P
[18:44] <Roasted_> so by installing edubuntu, I get ALL of this?
[18:44] <mhall119> http://www.revolutionlinux.com/ is a canadian company that has done several school installs
[18:44] <Roasted_> because I'm starting off with a few systems at the HS level, but if Edubuntu is geared for k-5... etc.
[18:44] <mhall119> a couple of the Edubuntu devs work there
[18:44] <Roasted_> nice
[18:44] <mhall119> highvoltage: ^^
[18:44] <mhall119> stgraber: ^^
[18:44] <Roasted_> I really hope this takes off.
[18:44] <Roasted_> It would be so great to see an open source OS in the classroom.
[18:44] <mhall119> edubuntu covers the entire US public school spectrum
[18:45] <mgariepy> hey
[18:45] <mhall119> hi mgariepy
[18:46] <Roasted_> in particular I'm curious if anybody has integrated ubuntu to a windows domain and how its faired for them
[18:46] <Roasted_> I got a few ubuntu systems on the domain but I'm just still sketchy on the whole idea since its a MS domain and all
[18:46] <mhall119> Roasted_: there's also http://www.partimus.org/ out of California
[18:46] <Roasted_> oh wow. thin clients...
[18:46] <mhall119> Roasted_: you want to use active directory for authentication or something like that?
[18:47] <Roasted_> we have some thin clients that bombed. HARD.
[18:47] <Roasted_> I wonder if these would be any different
[18:47] <mhall119> LTSP lets you use older second-hand computers as cheap thin clients
[18:47] <Roasted_> well we're using AD right now. The idea isn't to tip the scale and re-vamp the entire system. The idea is to add a few linux boxes and see what happens.
[18:47] <Roasted_> LTSP... what's the full name for that?
[18:47] <mhall119> Linux Terminal Server Project
[18:47] <mgariepy> Roasted_, I work for revolution linux and we have integrated in windows enviroment
[18:47] <mhall119> it comes on the Edubuntu DVD
[18:48] <Roasted_> mgariepy, how do you add your systems to a windows domain?
[18:48] <mgariepy> We do desktop/laptop management and ltsp-cluster as well
[18:48] <Roasted_> do you use likewise open by chance?
[18:48] <mgariepy> we have been using likewise-open with lucid yes
[18:49] <Roasted_> nice, nice.
[18:49] <mhall119> Roasted_: check out http://edubuntu.org/weblive to try out a live system righ tnow
[18:49] <Roasted_> glad to know I made a wise move then, lol... that's what I'm toying with now. version 6 I believe on 10.04.2
[18:50] <Roasted_> mgariepy, how familiar are you with ncomputing?
[18:50] <highvoltage> hey Roasted_
[18:50] <Roasted_> whats up highvoltage
[18:50] <highvoltage> things are good and you?
[18:50] <mgariepy> Roasted_, not familiar with that
[18:50] <Roasted_> ah not too bad. updating a windows image and doing a little light reading here.
[18:50] <highvoltage> I've used ncomputing before. It's ok for smaller setups but it doesn't scale
[18:50] <Roasted_> yeah
[18:50] <Roasted_> we have ncomputing at the moment...
[18:51] <Roasted_> we have one massive server trying to host a lab of 30 systems.
[18:51] <highvoltage> if you want to use it in larger setups you need to manage those systems, and might as well switch to usual desktops anyway
[18:51] <Roasted_> we're rebooting the server daily for it to operate with the thin clients successfully.
[18:52] <Roasted_> I'm far more curious about what info I can get about ubuntu in the classroom in general, but I hadnt thought about linux thin clients.
[18:52] <highvoltage> ouch, so you're using that ncomputing unit that basically sends all the video over the network? that's like networking murder :)
[18:52] <Roasted_> we have it isolated on its own gigabit switch. but yeah, its rough.
[18:53] <Roasted_> utilizing old computers as thin clients isn't a very attractive option for classrooms, in my opinion, as we want there to be a power saving factor there too and using old hardware doesnt translate to power savings.
[18:53] <Roasted_> however, using old computers would be nice anyway, as we have those one-or-two systems in the back of each classroom for various tasks.
[18:53] <highvoltage> personally I'm not a big fan of the old computers idea
[18:54] <highvoltage> I've done it in more than 200 schools before and you end up spending more money replacing old hardware all the time
[18:54] <Roasted_> I'm not either, but at the same token, I hate to throw out hardware that *IS* currently working.
[18:54] <Roasted_> we tend to treat classroom computers as a gift.
[18:54] <Roasted_> if it dies, it's gone.
[18:54] <Roasted_> but while we have it, here, use it.
[18:54] <highvoltage> newer computers have the benefit (at least on LTSP) that you can run some applications locally, it greatly improves end-user and networking performance
[18:55] <Roasted_> I see a screenshot here of an EEE thin client. what's that lil box cost?
[18:55] <highvoltage> but I guess many computers that are "old" these days are ones that I would probably consider fairly recent :)
[18:55] <highvoltage> my thin client at work is a EEE. I don't know what it cost us but it works great
[18:56] <highvoltage> mgariepy: do you know what this machine cost?
[18:56] <mgariepy> Roasted_, i think it around 200$ but i can't promise anything
[18:57] <highvoltage> (it's this one, btw http://event.asus.com/eeetop/)
[18:59] <Roasted_> highvoltage, do you know what kind of ratio you can work with with these units to the server?
[18:59] <Roasted_> like can 1 quad core/16gb server manage a lab of 30 eee boxes?
[18:59] <Roasted_> or am I stretching it far too thin?
[19:00] <highvoltage> Roasted_: well, the great thing about them is that they have enough cpu power and ram to run apps locally, so you can reduce cpu load and networking requirements quite a lot
[19:00] <Roasted_> highvoltage, does the end user see an ubuntu desktop?
[19:01] <highvoltage> Roasted_: they should be fine with that server, if it was me I'd probably add another gigabit network card and bond them just maximise network traffic to the desktops
[19:01] <doctormo> highvoltage: OK I have a preview
[19:01] <highvoltage> Roasted_: yep, they do indeed. if they install via edubuntu they'll get an edubuntu desktop, which is very similar
[19:01] <highvoltage> Roasted_: here are some screenshots: http://edubuntu.org/screenshots
[19:02] <highvoltage> Roasted_: the reason why I prefer LTSP way over things like ncomputing is that you can grow it with LTSP Cluster
[19:02] <highvoltage> Roasted_: so when the school decides to expand the lab or put some workstations into classrooms, then you can also add more servers and split the load of the clients accross the servers
[19:03] <Roasted_> highvoltage, well I think our server is actually two quad cores, 32gb ram, and 4 gigabit network cards... and it struggles with ncomputing for 30 seats...
[19:04] <Roasted_> however we're in an older building. I think we're on cat5 (non e) but I don't thin kthe ncomputing boxes have a 1000 uplink anyway. Ithink they're limited by 100 as is.
[19:04] <mgariepy> Roasted_, i assure you with LTSP-cluster this server would be idle.
[19:04] <Roasted_> lol
[19:04] <Roasted_> what does LTSP stand for
[19:04] <highvoltage> Roasted_: wow, yeah that machine will be fine then :)
[19:05] <highvoltage> Roasted_: Linux Terminal Server Project
[19:05] <mgariepy> Linux Terminal Server Project
[19:05] <Roasted_> you guys sure are giving me a lot to think about here.
[19:05] <mgariepy> you are typing too fase highvoltage
[19:05] <mgariepy> s/fase/fast
[19:05] <Roasted_> no offense but this would certainly have to be small scale for us to heavily consider it. I'm thinking about a good test area... perhaps a bench of 8 systems in a library.
[19:05] <Roasted_> would a dual core/3gb RAM desktop handle 8 systems?
[19:05] <Roasted_> well, 7
[19:05] <highvoltage> Roasted_: oh, I forgot to tell you, there's also LTSP live on edubuntu, it allows you to boot from a live USB disk and try out LTSP on a server
[19:06] <Roasted_> also - what host OS do you use for LTSP? Ubuntu desktop? Ubuntu server?
[19:06] <Roasted_> CentOS or something else?
[19:06] <highvoltage> Roasted_: it will be a bit slower than a full installation, but it will give you an idea of what it's capable of already
[19:06] <mgariepy> Roasted_, we use ubuntu server, with desktop packages
[19:06] <highvoltage> I doubt there's anyone in here that wouldn't say Ubuntu :)
[19:07] <Roasted_> Is LTSP only compatible with certain thin client boxes? Or can you utilize most thin client boxes for use with LTSP?
[19:07] <mgariepy> Roasted_, usualy if you can run linux on the client it will work with LTSP
[19:07] <Roasted_> yeah. that's the only thing I'm not sur eof.
[19:07] <Roasted_> we have a microsoft thinpoint server or something like that now.
[19:08] <Roasted_> err, multipoint
[19:08] <Roasted_> it's a decent HP desktop with 7 boxes connected to it locally through HP thin clients.
[19:08] <highvoltage> Roasted_: technically, anything that will work with ubuntu should work. you probably want to stick with intel architecture (like i686 and amd64) and also intel chipsets. intel graphics/sound/etc is well supported. nvidia and ati are getting a *lot* better, but there may be some regressions as their drivers are under heavy development
[19:08] <Roasted_> yeah. I hear ya there.
[19:09] <Roasted_> So, let's say I want to get started. How would I do this? Install Ubuntu 10.04.2 64 bit (desktop edition okay I hope?) and then what?
[19:10] <highvoltage> Roasted_: if you're just getting started, I would recommend that you do it with Edubuntu 11.04 amd64 instead
[19:10] <Roasted_> hold that thought...
[19:10] <Roasted_> Edubuntu = LTSP?
[19:10] <highvoltage> Roasted_: sorry, I meant 10.10
[19:11] <Roasted_> Do I need Edubuntu to use LTSP?
[19:11] <highvoltage> Roasted_: nope, it just makes it super-easy to install
[19:11] <Roasted_> I see. I see...
[19:11] <Roasted_> Is it in the software center or a deb package?
[19:11] <highvoltage> Roasted_: it has a modified installer that includes LTSP, so you don't have to do any command-line stuff to get it running
[19:11] <doctormo> highvoltage: http://divajutta.com/doctormo/art/edu/perspective.png
[19:11] <Roasted_> whaaaat
[19:12] <highvoltage> Roasted_: edubuntu is an iso image that you can download: http://edubuntu.org/download
[19:12] <Roasted_> How does Edubuntu differ from whats in software center vs iso?
[19:12] <doctormo> LTSP == Long Term Sock Protector?
[19:13] <doctormo> Roasted_: All distros based around Ubuntu have a different set of default packages on the iso.
[19:13] <doctormo> Lots of them make sure to upload new and interesting packages also
[19:13] <Roasted_> So Edubuntu.iso would be smarter than Ubuntu.iso + Edubuntu package?
[19:13] <doctormo> But that means Ubuntu classic gets access to Edubuntu packages.
[19:13] <Roasted_> Or am I totally lost...
[19:13] <highvoltage> Roasted_: it has the same software center, and shares the same archives, it just has other defaults and other default packages installed. you can install an ubuntu machine too, it's fine, but you'll have to install LTSP manually. if you're already comfortable with that then feel free :)
[19:14] <Roasted_> Well I AM a terminal junkie, but if there's an easier way, I'm all for it.
[19:14] <Roasted_> I'm very curious if some of our spare ncomputing boxes can handle LTSP...
[19:15] <highvoltage> Roasted_: I think the easier option is good for just getting started and getting the concepts and how it works and where things happen. if you want to do a more specific installation and want to do more things manually, it will then be easier once you've done it the easy way
[19:15] <Roasted_> I agree.
[19:15] <Roasted_> Looks like I'll have a fun little project tomorrow.
[19:15] <highvoltage> Roasted_: if those ncomputing boxes are anything like the ones I've seen before, then they're pretty much useless. do you have a link to the ones you've bought?
[19:16] <Roasted_> Where within Edubuntu would I install LTSP? I'm just trying to think about how I go about it once I'm in.
[19:16] <Roasted_> highvoltage, let me google for one quick.
[19:16] <highvoltage> doctormo: I have it open and will look a bit closer, thanks :)
[19:16] <Roasted_> highvoltage, we have a few of these laying around. http://www.ncomputing.com/products-lseries
[19:21] <highvoltage> Roasted_: yeah those units won't work, LTSP needs thin clients with local CPUs
[19:21] <Roasted_> gotcha.
[19:21] <Roasted_> either way, if its cheaper than a new lab the bossman might like it
[19:22] <Roasted_> but gotta start small scale. I'm curious if our hp boxes would work.
[19:22] <Roasted_> I think they have a small chip inside but I'm not positive.
[19:22] <mgariepy> waht hp thin client do you have ?
[19:22] <Roasted_> why does this look so flipping awesome to me. suddenly my job is exciting again.
[19:22] <highvoltage> indeed, a bit of experimentation with different technologies cost very little and can save you quite a lot down the line
[19:22] <Roasted_> I'm not sure... I'm a few miles away in another school at the moment. :(
[19:23] <mgariepy> hp-5745 works really great
[19:23] <highvoltage> Roasted_: yeah they have an integrated chip, but it's some custom embedded system on a chip thingy, nothing that can run Linux, unfortunately
[19:23] <Roasted_> :(
[19:23] <Roasted_> either way
[19:24] <Roasted_> if its cheaper than a new lab, it may be easier to integrate
[19:24] <Roasted_> what kind of limitations do these boxes have? Like if we get the EEE boxes as pictured, can they run gimp? flash? etc locally?
[19:26] <highvoltage> Roasted_: I do that pretty much every day on my eeetop
[19:26] <mgariepy> Roasted_, usually we run gimp on the server and firefox and flash on the thin client
[19:26] <Roasted_> mgariepy, really? is it easy to specify which does what?
[19:26] <highvoltage> well, I use Chrome on my thin client :) (but a lot of other users here use firefox)
[19:27] <doctormo> highvoltage: Remembered to put in sky, update in a second
[19:27] <highvoltage> Roasted_: ltsp has a configuration file where you can specify what clients should run on their own cpu. the rest runs on the server
[19:27] <Roasted_> highvoltage, and that trickles to EVERYBODY?
[19:27] <mgariepy> yeah, it mostly depend on the software present on your ltsp chroot and a configuration variable for LTSP
[19:28] <Roasted_> like if I say on the server, run this this and this locally, it auto-pushes everything not in the list to the server?
[19:28] <Roasted_> I'm trying to dig up those EEE thin clients in the picture. I'm having a hardt ime finding it, as ASUS just links me to Revo Linux which doesn't have any specs on that box itself (price, spec, etc) Where else can I find it?
[19:28] <mgariepy> Roasted_, you can also run locally an application on a client that supports it and not on another client that doesn't have enough ram.
[19:29] <highvoltage> newegg has the new model, it's more than $200 though: http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883220039&Tpk=eee%20top
[19:30] <highvoltage> mgariepy: I think that $200 was for the second hand ones we had in storage
[19:30] <Roasted_> uh..
[19:30] <highvoltage> ah, or unless it's just the ebox: http://www.newegg.ca/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=eee+box&x=0&y=0
[19:30] <Roasted_> thats not a thin client box
[19:30] <Roasted_> ahh
[19:31] <Roasted_> more like it :P
[19:31] <Roasted_> still a bit larger than I thought it was compared to the picture.
[19:31] <highvoltage> I was talking about the eeetop because that's the one I have on my desk
[19:31] <Roasted_> is that the model you have highvoltage ?
[19:31] <mgariepy> the 200 is for OEM system wihtout hdd and stuff..
[19:31] <highvoltage> but the eeebox and eeetop has pretty much the same hardware (except for the touchscreen)
[19:31] <highvoltage> mgariepy: ah, cool. I didn't realise you can buy it like that
[19:32] <Roasted_> heres a gizmo http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&safe=active&noj=1&q=eee+box&biw=1280&bih=661&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=2738412403065697596&sa=X&ei=HIR2TdjvHML88Ab3ncHzCA&ved=0CHIQ8wIwBQ#
[19:32] <Roasted_> we have monitors, mice, keyboards, etc.
[19:32] <Roasted_> I'm talking just the BOX itself.
[19:32] <Roasted_> and if it needs hdd/ram/whatever. I'm seeing some with,s ome without.
[19:32] <highvoltage> yeah you probably just want to drop the hdd
[19:33] <Roasted_> ram would help tho I would assume
[19:33] <Roasted_> looks like netbook spec... 1gb ram 1.6ghz atom
[19:33] <Roasted_> CDW has them in stock, which is a vendor we use a lot. nice nice...
[19:34] <Roasted_> highvoltage, do you think theres NO way for me to use the ncomputing box as a test? I'd like to set up a 1 to 1 (ubuntu desktop as server and one thin client box) to at least show the boss if possible.
[19:34] <Roasted_> then we could utilize the "real" gear (if he goes for it) with EEE box's or whatever.
[19:35] <highvoltage> Roasted_: yep, more ram would be useful for local apps, and is usually cheaper to add up-front
[19:36] <highvoltage> Roasted_: it's impossible for the ncomputing machines to boot a linux kernel, since they don't have a CPU and RAM, it's like trying to install Linux on a VCR.
[19:36] <Roasted_> lol
[19:36] <Roasted_> I tried, right?
[19:36] <highvoltage> :)
[19:36] <Roasted_> man, you guys gave me a ton to look over
[19:36] <Roasted_> I appreciate your help highvoltage + mgariepy
[19:37] <mhall119> I'm sure somewhere someone has a VCR running Debian
[19:37] <Roasted_> I definitely want to look into this more. I just wish our in-house gear was up to par to use to test. school districts are getting hairy with spending now, especially experimental spending. :(
[19:37] <highvoltage> you're welcome, the idea with edubuntu is to make it easier to do stuff and get the information, but we've still got a long way to go to make it completely brain dead. we'll get there one day :)
[19:37] <Roasted_> dumb question tho
[19:38] <mgariepy> you are welcome Roasted_
[19:38] <Roasted_> ultimately in a windows environment, by adding the edubuntu server to the domain via likewise open, that thereby makes all of the thin client end users able to authenticate to the domain accordingly, right?
[19:39] <highvoltage> Roasted_: I *think* you might have to add one or two lines to the ssh configuration file, but other than that it might just work out of the box
[19:39] <mgariepy> Roasted_, once likewise-open is configured correctly, and the machine has joined the domain everybody should be able to authenticate yes
[19:39] <Roasted_> good deal.
[19:39] <highvoltage> Roasted_: I vaguely remember adding something to the config file so that users wouldn't have to type out their domain
[19:39] <Roasted_> oh I don't care if they have to type out the domain
[19:39] <Roasted_> they have to do it anyway for webmail at home
[19:40] <Roasted_> it's not like it would be hard to make them aware to do it here
[19:40] <Roasted_> with that said, I need to finish up a few tickets while this windows install gets done with its bajillion windows updates
[19:40] <highvoltage> Roasted_: ah ok
[19:40] <Roasted_> I greatly appreciate the help guys
[19:40] <Roasted_> gave me a TON to think about and research
[19:40] <mhall119> good luck Roasted_
[19:40] <Roasted_> mucho thanks everyone
[19:54] <Roasted_> whoa. does edubuntu come with italc?
[19:54] <Roasted_> (I'm back btw)
[19:56] <Roasted_> Secondly, I'm an idiot. Instead of worrying about testing in a small test environment with thin client boxes we don't have, I could CERTAINLY use some older desktops sitting around as my test-bed for this exact purpose
[19:57] <Roasted_> and with that, I need to go. but anyway, thanks.