cprofittplease say here if you are present for the Beginners Team meeting00:00
s-foxo/ here00:00
* phillw here00:00
cprofittszczur: I am pleased to let you know that the council had voted to approve your membership00:00
s-foxWell done.00:01
ddecatorszczur: congrats :)00:01
MrChrisDruifAll? :)00:01
szczurthanks a lot :)00:01
* NRWlion is here too00:01
MrChrisDruifCongratulations to all the new members00:01
szczurthank you all of the support00:01
jledbetterCongratulations :)00:02
phillwszczur: congrats, richly deserved.00:02
MrChrisDruifOw...misread....congratulations szczur :)00:02
cprofitt[topic] Elections00:03
MootBotNew Topic:  Elections00:03
cprofittAs you know we are going to be holding elections to replace two council members00:03
cprofittnhandler: ping00:03
UndiFineDo/ good morning00:03
cprofittWe will be holding these elections as they do for other councils with voting online00:04
MrChrisDruifHai UndiFineD00:04
cprofittthere will be an email sent out soon with instructions for voting00:04
cprofittare there any questions on that?00:05
MrChrisDruifInstructions in mail, sounds pretty clear :)00:05
cprofittI hope it will be00:05
cprofitt[topic] Getting more Mentors00:05
MootBotNew Topic:  Getting more Mentors00:05
* NRWlion has none .. waiting for mail00:05
cprofittduanedesign: your floor00:05
cprofittNRWlion: we have not sent them yet00:05
cprofittsoon though I think00:06
duanedesignjust a reminder that we need to continue working on our community efforts00:06
cprofittI would like to remind people that we have 'umbrella' groups00:07
cprofittand there are specializations beneath them00:07
duanedesignthe social aspect of our team is awesome and I have made some wonderful friends, but we are here to contribute to Ubuntu00:07
cprofittfor example accessibility would be a specilization under development, documentation and support -- depending on what you were skilled at provindg help with00:08
* ddecator would love to see -beginners-bugs become more active00:08
duanedesignand anyone who is contributing should have no problem geting membership in one of the teams required to be a mentor00:08
cprofittlubuntu would be a specialization under support and documentation00:08
cprofittddecator: +1 to active with bugs00:09
duanedesignfor example bugs FG. You wouuld need to be a member of Bug Control.00:09
PabloRubianessorry I am late00:09
MrChrisDruifcprofitt: Why not dev? Is it because they only select package to use instead of creating new?00:09
duanedesignIf you have any quenstions about the requirements for being a bug mentor or any other FG please ask00:09
jledbetterduanedesign, To be on the team or as a mentor for -bug?00:09
duanedesignjledbetter: as a mentor00:09
jledbetterduanedesign, Understood. Thanks :) What are requirements for -dev?00:10
cprofittMrChrisDruif: those are just examples... if there is dedicated dev work to lubuntu that does not cross other projects then yes... but in most cases I see dev as usually being rather cross-WM00:10
=== Ursinha-afk is now known as Ursinha
MrChrisDruifcprofitt: Thanks, was just curious :)00:10
cprofittduanedesign: all set?00:11
duanedesignjledbetter: i will find that for you00:11
* nhandler is here00:11
cprofitthey nhandler00:11
jledbetterduanedesign, Thank you. I'd like to know so I can work toward it :)00:12
=== Seeker is now known as Seekers
phillwone of the 'problems' is that SII and speechcontrol have been moved upstream, against my loudest shouts, but I do understand the reasoning. We will retain a very close tie to ubuntu but the council are once again faced with what we had when lubuntu arrived.00:12
cprofittall set duanedesign ?00:12
=== Seekers is now known as Seeker`
cprofittphillw: I do not think we are on that topic yet00:13
duanedesignDevelopment FG you should be a Contributing Developers, per-package uploaders, MOTU or Core Developers00:13
duanedesignso if you are active in the community membership in these teams is not very hard and very attainable for all00:15
jledbetterduanedesign, Ok, thank you.00:15
duanedesignI would like to see everyone working towards being a member of one of these community teams00:15
duanedesignthank you00:15
cprofitt[topic] accessibility FG00:15
MootBotNew Topic:  accessibility FG00:15
cprofitta quick note before I turn the floor over to UndiFineD00:16
cprofittwe currently are not planning on having an Accessibility Team00:16
cprofittbecause we do not want to pull it out of the teams it can benefit...00:16
phillwsorry cprofitt  I thought we were discussing FG's in general.00:16
cprofittdevelopers need to think about accesibility, docmentation needs it... support needs it00:16
cprofittso I would like to see accessibility 'experts' on all the FG teams00:17
cprofittI know we have discussed this before... and I would be willing to see it discussed more on the email list...00:17
phillwcprofitt: we have a guy redrafting the SII charter, but please understand we were planning on a 3 month transition and got this dropped on us to be moved upstream.00:18
cprofittI hope folks understand that it is the intent to give accessibility a first class seat by asking developers, etc to think of it while they are developing... not as an add-on00:18
cprofittUndiFineD: you have the floor00:18
UndiFineDhmmm, now I made up this agenda some month ago, a few days after the meeting00:19
UndiFineDand in that time a lot has changed for a lot of us00:19
UndiFineDI can understand the delay for the accessibility FG00:20
UndiFineDbut we also need to define expert level00:20
UndiFineDi think that is all i can say about that atm00:21
duanedesignmaybe a wiki page explaining how to get involved in contributing to accessebility.? excuse me if this already exists on the accessebility wiki00:22
UndiFineDit does00:22
cprofittUndiFineD: I want to be clear there is no delay for the accessibility FG00:22
cprofittwe want to incorporate accessibility with all the current FGs00:23
duanedesignok. we can make it clear that we have interested folks in bt that are willing to help you get involved, through our focus groups, helping with accessebility00:23
cprofitthave the Dev FG learn about accessibility... from the ground up00:23
cprofitt+1 duanedesign00:23
duanedesignsuprised no one has pointed out my terrible spelling of accessibility00:24
UndiFineDcprofitt: well, yes and no ;) it is a delay if it is not agreed upon in this meeting, but there is no work done getting this prepared00:24
cprofittit was agreed on many meetings ago00:24
cprofittto try and incorporate accessibility under our existing FGs00:24
UndiFineDduanedesign: dyslexia ? :P00:24
phillwif people code from the ground up, for either code or web sites, we can make a differance.00:24
cprofitt+1 phillw00:25
UndiFineDwell, it can also be done for existing projects of course00:25
cprofittI certainly would like to get more than the one Accessibility Mentor...00:25
cprofittI believe hajour is working with charlie-tca on that currently00:26
phillwone of the things I was asked, was does accessibility have enough people to maintain itself as a FG - the  answer is yes.00:26
cprofittphillw: it is not just a question of that00:26
cprofittif we would like to re-open the discussion we can do so on the mailing list00:26
ddecatori think it's more about not splitting up efforts and instead trying to keep them combined00:27
ddecatorif we split them up too much, then we'll have 20 FGs working on different but related things00:27
duanedesigni think we can make a great difference using our current structure00:27
cprofittI will, if you like, try to send an email to the team about what was agreed on before.... if the team wants to change we can work towards coming up with a suggestion00:27
phillwthat is why the SII charter is being re-written from scratch as we and speech control were moved upstream, but we can have a chat about that after the meeting.00:28
cprofittSII has nothing to do with the BT ... at least nothing that I am aware of00:28
cprofittbut, yes after the meeting00:28
cprofitt[topic] new member voting00:29
MootBotNew Topic:  new member voting00:29
ddecatorha, it actually caught it that time00:29
cprofittI believe the new member voting was covered on the mailing list00:29
cprofittbut to restate -- the council now votes on new members... and we look at the testimonials on their wiki page, emails sent to the council, etc00:29
phillwjust for clarification, out of the nominees, who did the council elect?00:30
* evilnhandler notes that this isn't a new change00:30
cprofittthis was done to give folks who had issues with making meeting able to have input to the process as well00:30
cprofittallowing the council to handle influxes of people such as what we had after UDS-N00:30
duanedesignelky: right, I added to the confusion last meeeting. That is wht I felt the need to clarify the policy :)00:30
cprofitt+1 evilnhandler00:30
duanedesignevilnhandler: ^^00:30
cprofittphillw: we approved szczur00:31
cprofitt[topic] More members requested for Developers FG00:31
MootBotNew Topic:  More members requested for Developers FG00:31
cprofittagain before I turn it over to UndiFineD00:31
UndiFineDno, not my topic00:31
cprofittI want to clarify that we really do not 'request' members to join teams...00:32
cprofittok UndiFineD00:32
cprofittwe are all volunteers here... so it is more of a 'want to do this' than a request00:32
* NRWlion gets a slight laugh in his face ;)00:32
jledbetterMore activity would be nice :)00:33
duanedesigngood point :) we are all here to have fun00:33
s-foxYes, "fun"00:33
cprofittwe would love to see more activity... and would love to help those who want to contribute to the dev team00:33
cprofittbut we will not force you in to the Kings army :-)00:33
cprofittor any such thing00:33
jledbettercprofitt, Who's the active leader?00:33
evilnhandlerjledbetter: Collin Pruitt00:34
jledbetterevilnhandler, Thank you00:34
cprofittevilnhandler: we need to make him an admin on the LP team then00:34
NRWlioncprofitt, doubt that i would be helpful in -dev ;) absolutely no knowledge ;)00:35
evilnhandlercprofitt: He is a member of ~ubuntu-beginners-dev-owner00:35
cprofittNRWlion: we want you to be involved where you are interested00:35
cprofittevilnhandler: ok00:35
NRWlioni know. that was just on "we dont force you to the Kings army" ;)00:35
cprofitt[topic] Ubuntu for all00:36
MootBotNew Topic:  Ubuntu for all00:36
cprofittUndiFineD: you have the floor00:36
UndiFineDjust raising awareness that this is a new team that got started by AlanBell00:36
UndiFineDit seems to be a somewhat cross-connecting team for every one00:37
pleia2it's actually an old team, we're working to revive it a bit00:37
cprofittpleia2: what is Ubuntu Younglings?00:38
cprofittthat is part of that00:38
pleia2cprofitt: AFAIK it's a proposal for kids (youth is more teenage)00:38
MrChrisDruifI think it totally embodies the Ubuntu ethos (UFA that is)00:38
* cprofitt nods00:38
cprofittand what is NGO?00:38
pleia2non-government organization, non-profits00:39
* cprofitt nods00:39
phillwNon Governmetal Organisation00:39
cprofittso a very broad project that is looking to ensure that people are included?00:39
pleia2more of an umbrella team00:39
pleia2just making sure all those projects are on track, or at least getting help if they need it00:39
cprofittvery much the way the BT envisions Accessibility...00:39
ddecatoris there an lp group?00:39
cprofittif I grasp it correctly00:39
pleia2there is a mailing list: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-for-all00:40
cprofittI thank you all for making us aware of this umbrella team...00:40
phillwpleia2: as SII are doing for accessibility, I look forward to working closely with you.00:40
ddecatorUndiFineD: danke00:41
cprofittI think a great many of these interests could be represented inside the BT as well...00:41
cprofittat the very least we need to be aware of them00:41
duanedesignsounds great00:41
pleia2cprofitt: I have some follow-up to do with your WRT to BT & Ubuntu Women mentoring00:41
* cprofitt nods to pleia00:41
cprofitt[topic] folks needing a master00:42
MootBotNew Topic:  folks needing a master00:42
cprofittplease look to the bottom of that page and make an effort to contact folks who are in your TZ00:42
cprofittIf you are unable to reach a person please contact me or another member of the council.00:43
* ddecator wishes that list included what their interests are00:43
duanedesignddecator: that is a good point00:43
cprofittI know in some cases we have had people add their names to the list... and never join irc or answer emails... and we need to remove those folks00:43
johnny77but sometimes they may not know, right?00:43
jledbetterSome said in the email so we could add it.00:43
ddecatorjohnny77: just if they have any specific interests00:44
jledbettercprofitt, True00:44
duanedesignthough ideally they should send email...what jledbetter said :)00:44
cprofittddecator: yes, we removed the need to tell us what a person was interested in until they are looking for a mentor00:44
cprofittif you are just looking to join the BT you may not know what you are interested in00:44
cprofittthat may develop as you grow with the team00:44
ddecatortrue, i would just prefer to take someone in my TZ who is interested in working with bugs just so i can possibly help them from the get-go :)00:44
cprofittddecator: but the original phase of being a master is just getting them setup with a LP account, wiki page, irc client, etc00:45
ddecatorcprofitt: yah, true00:45
cprofittI think any BT member should be able to handle that basic list00:45
NRWlioneven i am able to00:46
* ddecator will try to take on someone00:46
cprofittit is difficult enough to find masters in some TZs -- having to match interests as well would really slow the process down00:46
ddecatorwe're allowed to have more than one padawan, right?00:46
NRWlionbtw i am a new one too but dont need a master because already found one00:46
cprofittyou are allowed more than one padawan00:46
MrChrisDruifddecator: Yes00:46
ddecatorcprofitt: right, not having to match on interests, just doing so if it happens to work out that way, but i get your point00:46
cprofittwhen you become a mentor -- we may want to revist that00:47
cprofittso again... please look at the list of those seeking a master...00:47
MrChrisDruifNRWlion: It also stated on the line before it "... and have not yet been sponsored by a Master"00:47
cprofittand look for them on irc or try to contact them00:47
cprofittI would like to consider adding another column for 'contacted by'00:48
NRWlionsorry, its nearly 2 am here ... a little tired ;)00:48
cprofittso we do not end up with a person getting 12 emails00:48
cprofittanyone have an issue with that?00:48
* NRWlion not00:48
jledbettercprofitt, Great idea00:48
ddecatornah, that sounds like a good idea00:48
cprofittok --- contact by with a date stamp I think will help00:49
* MrChrisDruif thinks that person would feel very special00:49
ddecatoroh, that name looks familiar..00:49
duanedesignyou could do  @SIG@00:49
ddecatorjdeslaur has been in the team channel recently, yah?00:49
cprofitt+1 duanedesign00:49
MrChrisDruifddecator: Yeah, he's been there before :)00:49
cprofittddecator: he has.. and I tried to contact jdselaur today00:49
cprofittI did not get a response, but at least in channel00:50
ddecatoralright, i could work with him/her unless you plan to already00:50
ddecatorbut that can be sorted out later00:50
cprofittddecator: be my guess00:50
cprofittIt would be great for you to do it00:51
hajourjdeslaur is on his work when he is in chat here00:51
ddecatorcprofitt: want me to add my sig on the wiki then?00:51
cprofittddecator: yes -- and add the column for contacted too please00:51
ddecatorcprofitt: right, sure thing00:51
cprofittalso, as another note I would like Masters to review the00:51
hajourso he is  not always able to response right away00:51
cprofittpage and remove any Padawan that you feel you have lost contact with00:51
cprofittfor my own part I will be removing three tonight... as I have not gotten any response from them... nor have I seen them in irc00:52
cprofittI encourage you to do the same00:52
duanedesignyes we have needed to clean it up for awhile.00:52
ddecatorjames_w: thanks00:52
cprofittit is inevitable that people will decide that BT is not for them... and that is ok00:52
ddecatorhajour: ^^00:53
phillwmine just nag me to death... I wish they would leave me in peace somedays :P00:53
cprofittany other questions?00:53
duanedesigni just want to say to everyone keep up the great work.00:53
cprofitt+1 duanedesign00:53
johnny77I'm not sure if this is a good time, but I was wondering if anyone has heard from seidos.00:53
NRWlionphillw, you ask me to do so ... :( :'(00:54
jledbetterI've seen him on the mailing list, johnny7700:54
duanedesignjledbetter: +100:54
duanedesignas metta00:54
cprofittjohnny77: yes... I just talked to him earlier today00:54
cprofittor at least I am pretty sure i did00:54
UndiFineDjohnny77: I have spoken with him in private00:54
cprofittmaybe it was on the mailing list00:54
phillwI also see him kicking around00:54
cprofittthanks to everyone for coming to the meeting. This was an awesome turnout.00:55
jledbetterSee y'all in -team :D00:55
MootBotMeeting finished at 18:55.00:55
phillwcprofitt: -council or PM?00:55
UndiFineDI am missing the topic of council elections !00:57
jledbetterUndiFineD, Going out via email to the list on how to vote :)00:57
UndiFineDoh ok00:57
NRWlionin that case i should visit my bed now00:59
NRWliongood n8 everyone01:00
=== Amaranth_ is now known as Amaranth
=== Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-afk
=== ogra is now known as Guest90542
=== Guest90542 is now known as ogra_
=== Nakkel__ is now known as Nakkel
=== ogra_ is now known as ogra
=== Ursinha-afk is now known as Ursinha
* mvo waves16:03
MootBotMeeting started at 10:04. The chair is robbiew.16:04
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]16:04
robbiew[TOPIC] Apologies16:05
MootBotNew Topic:  Apologies16:05
robbiewdoko is out16:05
robbiew...think that's it16:05
robbiewoh...jhunt too16:05
robbiew[TOPIC] Lightning Round16:06
MootBotNew Topic:  Lightning Round16:06
* robbiew grabs jhunt' status16:06
* barry pre-apologizes for next week16:06
robbiew"Apologies from James. Updated Natty tech overview for Upstart. Worked on upstart "intro" docs. Merged visualisation branch into upstream and natty upstart branches. Lots of packaging fun + intrigue (thx cjwatson+mvo!). Lots of doc changes. Fixed gdm bug 436936, but after a number of branches and many, many pushes, it is not getting to the right place (I think the topic of bzr branches needs more focus in the UDD gui16:06
ubottuLaunchpad bug 436936 in gdm (Ubuntu Natty) "gdm upstart job checks /proc/cmdline for single user mode, won't start on post-boot runlevel change" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/43693616:06
robbiewgrr...did that all come through?16:07
cjwatsoncut off at "UDD gui"16:07
robbiewUDD guide - working out which branch to take and where you *can* push it under lp:~user without getting errors has taken way too much time IMHO).16:08
robbiewCurrently finishing implementing review changes as suggested by cjwatson (1 item remaining) and then plan to work on finishing tests for keybuks branch, resolving bugs 728531 and 728988.  "16:08
ubottuLaunchpad bug 728531 in upstart "chroot support is not reliable" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/72853116:08
ubottuLaunchpad bug 728988 in upstart "upstart tests for initctl show-config and check-config fail in a chroot" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/72898816:08
robbiewcjwatson: he mentioned needing some help in pushing the fix for the gdm bug16:08
cjwatsonI saw the scrollback about that, seemed to be confusion about namespacing16:09
cjwatsonI'll check back with him when we're next both at work on the same day16:09
evHelped the design team intern get familiar with our tools and helped him refresh the installer slideshow. Taught ubiquity to offer Wubi when the partition table is full and copy it to the windows auto run folder (still need to teach Wubi to clean that up). Fixes to the recent installer changes, working with mpt to further refine. Travel to Pycon.16:10
evAnd dealing with my laptop breaking and having to bring an old one up to speed.16:10
robbiewheh...the laptop you dropped?16:10
cjwatsonI guess offering one thing that doesn't work (Wubi) is as good as offering another thing that doesn't work ;-)16:11
cjwatson(sorry, that was a cheap shot, not your fault ...)16:11
evI enjoyed it regardless16:11
robbiewit's the thought that counts16:11
robbiewthx ev16:12
evI am going to try to find some time to fix the issues I'm seeing with Wubi. Just need to get a copy of windows set up locally.16:12
robbiewev: ack16:12
barrybug 724416 (claws-mail duplicate messages); bug 727988 (broken libgpgme.la), bug 719206 (csound import failure), bug 731421 (scons sync request and FFe), bug 730447; udd stakeholders meeting; udd docs merged into ubuntu packaging guide; patch pilot.  travel to pycon today, there until 3/18.  done.16:12
ubottuLaunchpad bug 724416 in claws-mail (Ubuntu) "Claws appends sent message to Sent folder twice" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/72441616:12
ubottuLaunchpad bug 727988 in gpgme1.0 (Ubuntu) "/usr/lib/libgpgme.la has broken dependency_libs entry" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/72798816:12
ubottuLaunchpad bug 719206 in csound (Ubuntu Natty) "import (and examples) fail" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/71920616:12
ubottuLaunchpad bug 731421 in scons (Ubuntu) "[FFe] Sync scons 2.0.1-1 (main) from Debian testing (main)" [Wishlist,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/73142116:12
ubottuLaunchpad bug 730447 in scons (Ubuntu) "causes csound to be compined with -fvisibility=hidden" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/73044716:12
* robbiew finishes reading through barry's bugs16:15
mvoalpha3: app-install-data update, apt-ddtp update, command-not-found update, maverick->natty test upgrades16:15
mvoApt-clone: cleanup commandline usage, more tests, fix issues around the upgrade16:15
mvoApt: honor DPkg::Chroot-Dir in RunScripts*(), work on libudev fixes for when FSTAB_DIR is missing from the udev attributes, work on lp:~mvo/apt/sha512-template code, remove duplicated code16:15
mvoAptdaemon: debug/fix crash in enable_component, add test, commmit to trunk, more tests, fix add_repository crash16:15
mvoSoftware-center: weblive, adding tests, branch merges, review/merge detailsview-stuff16:15
mvoSynaptic: prepare new upload/merge from debian16:15
mvoUnattended-upgrades: work on minimal upgrade steps in unattended-upgrade and push FFe16:15
mvoUpdate-manager: add alert when on 3g or roaming16:16
robbiew"Software-center: weblive,"16:17
robbiewis the option in natty?16:17
mvojust a tech demo16:17
mvodisabled by default16:17
robbiewno worries16:17
robbiewjust wanted to know if I could play around with it :P16:17
mvobut if you run software-center --with-weblive its there and pretty cool (thanks to stgraber)16:17
mvoyou need qtnx installed too16:17
mvoits definitely good stuff and worth playing with, works pretty well for me16:18
robbiewthnx mvo16:19
robbiewpsurbhi: ?16:19
psurbhi*) introduced a timeout option in mountall. Can be changed with a command line argument: --dev-wait-time. Added support in mountall.conf to pass the kernel command line option "rootdelay" to mountall.16:19
psurbhi*) serialized the execution of the init-top, init-premount, local-top, local-premount and then mountall16:19
psurbhi*) made upstart scripts for inserting modules "loop, ubi, mtd" at startup. Need to add better error handling support.16:19
psurbhi*) analyzed the scripts in init-top, init-premount, local-top, local-premount across packages to see how they could be arranged.16:19
psurbhi*) analyzing the bottom scripts now.16:19
psurbhi*) should be soon ready with the current initramfs order of execution adapted in the event based initramfs (to the point of mounting the rootfs ro)16:19
robbiewpsurbhi: thnx16:20
robbiewcjwatson: ?16:20
cjwatsondone: patch pilot; banging head repeatedly against bug 693671 and remembering far more about x86 assembly than I wanted to; upstart reviews etc.16:21
ubottuLaunchpad bug 693671 in grub2 (Ubuntu Natty) "wubi install will not boot - phase 2 stops with: Try (hd0,0): NTFS5" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/69367116:21
cjwatsontodo: dearly hoping to fix wubi before heat death of universe16:21
cjwatsonsorry, not a lot to say this week :)16:21
robbiewcjwatson: statik mentioned that we have a Windows "expert" in online services...might be worth getting him to look at it16:22
cjwatsonTBH this is not at the Windows level16:23
evWhich reminds me that I have an email from last year to write :-/16:23
cjwatsonit's actually not in any Windows code16:23
robbiewjust thinking he might also know x86 assembly ;)16:23
* ev reads up on that bug16:23
robbiew[TOPIC] Natty16:24
MootBotNew Topic:  Natty16:24
robbiewso with that...how is Natty going?16:24
cjwatsonev: (this is the kind of bug that makes me very worried about using wubi by default, FWIW ...)16:24
* robbiew puts his fingers in his ears when he hears "wubi by default"16:24
evI figured, though it will never be ready until we force it into the situation where we must fix these things16:24
evIf that means headcount, then it's my fault for not pushing on mark yet16:25
* barry still can't keep his atheros wireless from crashing in natty on his mbp16:25
evbarry: Things to not mention the day before I go ahead and buy one :-P16:26
cjwatsonev: some of the problems here are very fundamental16:26
cjwatsonthe fact that NTLDR only loads 8KB of boot code makes life very difficult16:26
barryev: well, to be fair, the mbp in question is a 1,1 so it's pretty old.  new ones might be better16:27
cjwatsonwhile debugging this, I couldn't insert any debugging code without deleting other code16:27
cjwatsonwhich means anything at that level that we can't reproduce ourselves is bound to be an absolute nightmare16:27
barryrobbiew: we have a dozen bugs tagged with python27 in natty, though 2 are marked incomplete.  that's actually not too bad, but i'll tackle them when i get back16:27
cjwatsonit was very fortunate that I could reproduce this bug; it could easily have been entirely intractable16:28
robbiewbarry: ack, thx16:28
* robbiew looks at http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations-ubuntu-11.04-beta-1.html16:29
robbiewheh...at least there's not much feature work16:29
mvothe hdd for the auto-upgrade-tester got approved, so hopefulyl python-all upgrades will be tested automaticially in the future16:29
cjwatsonheh, that's a good demonstration of how we've sucked at subcycle WI management this cycle16:30
robbiewor how we rock!16:30
* robbiew doesn't look at the bugs...that would ruin the joy16:30
robbiewignorance is truly bliss16:30
cjwatsonwell, all of the WIs assigned to me on that list were completed sometime in the a2 timeframe16:31
* mvo adds that two of his three are addressed (for b1)16:31
cjwatsonwhich makes it kind of weird to look at :)16:31
cjwatsonCan anyone who isn't on holiday or swap day or conference or whatever (if anyone) stand in for me at the release meeting on Friday?16:32
cjwatsonI have a swap half-day that afternoon, assuming Robbie approves :)16:32
evcjwatson: Understood and sorry for the delay - Spontaneous hall conversation. Do you thinks theres value in picking a grub version and freezing on it, given the fragile nature of these things?16:32
mvocjwatson: if noone else volunteers I can do the meeting16:33
robbiewI think mvo has volunteered16:34
robbiew[TOPIC] AOB/Good News16:34
MootBotNew Topic:  AOB/Good News16:34
evbarry: You're rubbish! Dinner tonight or tomorrow? :)16:34
cjwatsonev: I don't understand how freezing GRUB would help16:35
cjwatson(and it would certainly cause lots of other problems)16:35
barryev: tonight would be good.  have you heard back from allison?  doko's there too16:35
evIt was seemingly working fine, without these issues in previous cycles16:35
cjwatsonthe major part of the problems are in code that runs before GRUB starts16:36
evI had assumed this was a regression16:36
cjwatsonit's not clear16:36
cjwatsonthere's some evidence that it may depend on details of the layout of your NTFS filesystem16:36
cjwatsonat least parts of it16:36
evDamn this iPad16:36
cjwatsonI vaguely recall hangs a bit like this before that we could never track down16:37
evI assure you that was autocorrect being PURE EVIL16:37
cjwatsonmvo: thanks!16:37
* mvo mumbles something about the usefulness of keyboards16:37
mvotook me forever to preppare the last release meeting, maybe I'm quicker this time16:38
robbiewokay...calling this one done!16:38
MootBotMeeting finished at 10:38.16:38
robbiewthx all!16:38
barrythanks!  ev, see you in a few hours16:39
evcjwatson: Don't get me wrong, I understand your concerns and share them, but I'm equally concerned with how hard it is to install ubuntu, despite our best efforts. I want to say maybe more automated testing is part of the answer here, but that's probably me just getting a big excited about test frameworks.16:39
* barry -> pycon16:39
evbarry: Safe travels!16:39
evThanks all16:39
cjwatsonev: the worst problem here is lack of in-team expertise IMO16:39
evIn x86 assembly?16:40
cjwatsonwe're relying - in a way that I can't think of any way to unpick - on code that was abandoned upstream in 2009, that's intrinsically 7000 lines of x86 asm, and that nobody on the team knows.  I'm picking it up now but ...16:40
cjwatsonto my knowledge there is no other code out there that could replace this, given the design of wubi16:40
cjwatsonanyway, maybe I'm just over-focusing on my current problem.  it just gives me some pause16:41
cjwatsonI agree that it's a valuable installation tool, which is why I'm working on it16:42
evNot at all, I think you're entirely valid in being concerned.16:42
cjwatsonbut I worry about the possibility of a disconnect between engineering and marketing resulting in us advertising something that doesn't work and we can't fix it :)16:42
evOh definitely, and I'll do everything I can to prevent that from happening16:42
evIts definitely not being pushed hard for 11.0416:43
evAnd if we decide to go with it for 11.10 it will be with the request of your blessing and decided very early on so we can prepare adequate testing16:43
evAnd with the understanding that we'll drop it if it's not stable16:44
cjwatsonI think my basic problem here is that I'm not confident that we will always be able to fix critical problems; I don't know how I could become confident of that16:45
evWe could always go the grub on mbr + loopback if we decide the current path is unmaintainable. We lose the non destructiveness of it, but keep the ability to not have to resize partitions.16:51
evI'm definitely going to relay all this to Ale when I get back to the office, so the web team knows.16:52
=== psurbhi is now known as csurbhi_
=== dantalizing_ is now known as dantalizing
=== vish is now known as evilvish
=== noy_ is now known as noy
=== jjohansen is now known as jj-afk

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