[00:00] <cprofitt> please say here if you are present for the Beginners Team meeting
[00:00] <ddecator> here
[00:00] <johnny77> here
[00:00] <pleia2> here
[00:00] <s-fox> o/ here
[00:00] <CensoredBiscuit> here
[00:00] <duanedesign> her
[00:00] <jledbetter> here
[00:00] <szczur> here
[00:00] <duanedesign> e
[00:00] <Cheri703> here
[00:00]  * phillw here
[00:00] <MrChrisDruif> Hai
[00:00] <cprofitt> szczur: I am pleased to let you know that the council had voted to approve your membership
[00:01] <MrChrisDruif> s/Hai/here
[00:01] <cprofitt> congratulations!!!
[00:01] <s-fox> Well done.
[00:01] <johnny77> yay!
[00:01] <ddecator> szczur: congrats :)
[00:01] <MrChrisDruif> All? :)
[00:01] <szczur> thanks a lot :)
[00:01] <CensoredBiscuit> congrats
[00:01]  * NRWlion is here too
[00:01] <MrChrisDruif> Congratulations to all the new members
[00:01] <szczur> thank you all of the support
[00:02] <jledbetter> Congratulations :)
[00:02] <phillw> szczur: congrats, richly deserved.
[00:02] <MrChrisDruif> Ow...misread....congratulations szczur :)
[00:03] <cprofitt> [topic] Elections
[00:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  Elections
[00:03] <cprofitt> As you know we are going to be holding elections to replace two council members
[00:03] <cprofitt> nhandler: ping
[00:03] <UndiFineD> o/ good morning
[00:04] <cprofitt> We will be holding these elections as they do for other councils with voting online
[00:04] <MrChrisDruif> Hai UndiFineD
[00:04] <cprofitt> there will be an email sent out soon with instructions for voting
[00:05] <cprofitt> are there any questions on that?
[00:05] <MrChrisDruif> Instructions in mail, sounds pretty clear :)
[00:05] <cprofitt> I hope it will be
[00:05] <cprofitt> [topic] Getting more Mentors
[00:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  Getting more Mentors
[00:05]  * NRWlion has none .. waiting for mail
[00:05] <cprofitt> duanedesign: your floor
[00:05] <cprofitt> NRWlion: we have not sent them yet
[00:06] <cprofitt> soon though I think
[00:06] <duanedesign> just a reminder that we need to continue working on our community efforts
[00:07] <cprofitt> I would like to remind people that we have 'umbrella' groups
[00:07] <cprofitt> and there are specializations beneath them
[00:07] <duanedesign> the social aspect of our team is awesome and I have made some wonderful friends, but we are here to contribute to Ubuntu
[00:08] <cprofitt> for example accessibility would be a specilization under development, documentation and support -- depending on what you were skilled at provindg help with
[00:08]  * ddecator would love to see -beginners-bugs become more active
[00:08] <duanedesign> and anyone who is contributing should have no problem geting membership in one of the teams required to be a mentor
[00:08] <cprofitt> lubuntu would be a specialization under support and documentation
[00:09] <cprofitt> ddecator: +1 to active with bugs
[00:09] <duanedesign> for example bugs FG. You wouuld need to be a member of Bug Control.
[00:09] <PabloRubianes> sorry I am late
[00:09] <MrChrisDruif> cprofitt: Why not dev? Is it because they only select package to use instead of creating new?
[00:09] <duanedesign> If you have any quenstions about the requirements for being a bug mentor or any other FG please ask
[00:09] <jledbetter> duanedesign, To be on the team or as a mentor for -bug?
[00:09] <duanedesign> jledbetter: as a mentor
[00:10] <jledbetter> duanedesign, Understood. Thanks :) What are requirements for -dev?
[00:10] <cprofitt> MrChrisDruif: those are just examples... if there is dedicated dev work to lubuntu that does not cross other projects then yes... but in most cases I see dev as usually being rather cross-WM
[00:10] <MrChrisDruif> cprofitt: Thanks, was just curious :)
[00:11] <cprofitt> duanedesign: all set?
[00:11] <duanedesign> jledbetter: i will find that for you
[00:11]  * nhandler is here
[00:11] <cprofitt> hey nhandler
[00:12] <jledbetter> duanedesign, Thank you. I'd like to know so I can work toward it :)
[00:12] <phillw> one of the 'problems' is that SII and speechcontrol have been moved upstream, against my loudest shouts, but I do understand the reasoning. We will retain a very close tie to ubuntu but the council are once again faced with what we had when lubuntu arrived.
[00:12] <cprofitt> all set duanedesign ?
[00:13] <cprofitt> phillw: I do not think we are on that topic yet
[00:13] <duanedesign> Development FG you should be a Contributing Developers, per-package uploaders, MOTU or Core Developers
[00:15] <duanedesign> so if you are active in the community membership in these teams is not very hard and very attainable for all
[00:15] <jledbetter> duanedesign, Ok, thank you.
[00:15] <duanedesign> I would like to see everyone working towards being a member of one of these community teams
[00:15] <duanedesign> thank you
[00:15] <cprofitt> [topic] accessibility FG
[00:15] <MootBot> New Topic:  accessibility FG
[00:16] <cprofitt> a quick note before I turn the floor over to UndiFineD
[00:16] <UndiFineD> :)
[00:16] <cprofitt> we currently are not planning on having an Accessibility Team
[00:16] <cprofitt> because we do not want to pull it out of the teams it can benefit...
[00:16] <phillw> sorry cprofitt  I thought we were discussing FG's in general.
[00:16] <cprofitt> developers need to think about accesibility, docmentation needs it... support needs it
[00:17] <cprofitt> so I would like to see accessibility 'experts' on all the FG teams
[00:17] <cprofitt> I know we have discussed this before... and I would be willing to see it discussed more on the email list...
[00:18] <phillw> cprofitt: we have a guy redrafting the SII charter, but please understand we were planning on a 3 month transition and got this dropped on us to be moved upstream.
[00:18] <cprofitt> I hope folks understand that it is the intent to give accessibility a first class seat by asking developers, etc to think of it while they are developing... not as an add-on
[00:18] <cprofitt> UndiFineD: you have the floor
[00:19] <UndiFineD> hmmm, now I made up this agenda some month ago, a few days after the meeting
[00:19] <UndiFineD> and in that time a lot has changed for a lot of us
[00:20] <UndiFineD> I can understand the delay for the accessibility FG
[00:20] <UndiFineD> but we also need to define expert level
[00:21] <UndiFineD> i think that is all i can say about that atm
[00:22] <duanedesign> maybe a wiki page explaining how to get involved in contributing to accessebility.? excuse me if this already exists on the accessebility wiki
[00:22] <UndiFineD> it does
[00:22] <cprofitt> UndiFineD: I want to be clear there is no delay for the accessibility FG
[00:22] <UndiFineD> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/GettingInvolved
[00:23] <cprofitt> we want to incorporate accessibility with all the current FGs
[00:23] <duanedesign> ok. we can make it clear that we have interested folks in bt that are willing to help you get involved, through our focus groups, helping with accessebility
[00:23] <cprofitt> have the Dev FG learn about accessibility... from the ground up
[00:23] <cprofitt> +1 duanedesign
[00:24] <duanedesign> suprised no one has pointed out my terrible spelling of accessibility
[00:24] <UndiFineD> cprofitt: well, yes and no ;) it is a delay if it is not agreed upon in this meeting, but there is no work done getting this prepared
[00:24] <cprofitt> it was agreed on many meetings ago
[00:24] <cprofitt> to try and incorporate accessibility under our existing FGs
[00:24] <UndiFineD> duanedesign: dyslexia ? :P
[00:24] <phillw> if people code from the ground up, for either code or web sites, we can make a differance.
[00:25] <cprofitt> +1 phillw
[00:25] <UndiFineD> well, it can also be done for existing projects of course
[00:25] <cprofitt> I certainly would like to get more than the one Accessibility Mentor...
[00:26] <cprofitt> I believe hajour is working with charlie-tca on that currently
[00:26] <phillw> one of the things I was asked, was does accessibility have enough people to maintain itself as a FG - the  answer is yes.
[00:26] <cprofitt> phillw: it is not just a question of that
[00:26] <cprofitt> if we would like to re-open the discussion we can do so on the mailing list
[00:27] <ddecator> i think it's more about not splitting up efforts and instead trying to keep them combined
[00:27] <ddecator> if we split them up too much, then we'll have 20 FGs working on different but related things
[00:27] <duanedesign> i think we can make a great difference using our current structure
[00:27] <cprofitt> I will, if you like, try to send an email to the team about what was agreed on before.... if the team wants to change we can work towards coming up with a suggestion
[00:28] <phillw> that is why the SII charter is being re-written from scratch as we and speech control were moved upstream, but we can have a chat about that after the meeting.
[00:28] <cprofitt> SII has nothing to do with the BT ... at least nothing that I am aware of
[00:28] <cprofitt> but, yes after the meeting
[00:29] <cprofitt> [topic] new member voting
[00:29] <MootBot> New Topic:  new member voting
[00:29] <ddecator> ha, it actually caught it that time
[00:29] <cprofitt> I believe the new member voting was covered on the mailing list
[00:29] <PabloRubianes> yes
[00:29] <cprofitt> but to restate -- the council now votes on new members... and we look at the testimonials on their wiki page, emails sent to the council, etc
[00:30] <phillw> just for clarification, out of the nominees, who did the council elect?
[00:30]  * evilnhandler notes that this isn't a new change
[00:30] <cprofitt> this was done to give folks who had issues with making meeting able to have input to the process as well
[00:30] <cprofitt> allowing the council to handle influxes of people such as what we had after UDS-N
[00:30] <duanedesign> elky: right, I added to the confusion last meeeting. That is wht I felt the need to clarify the policy :)
[00:30] <cprofitt> +1 evilnhandler
[00:30] <duanedesign> oops
[00:30] <duanedesign> evilnhandler: ^^
[00:31] <cprofitt> phillw: we approved szczur
[00:31] <cprofitt> [topic] More members requested for Developers FG
[00:31] <MootBot> New Topic:  More members requested for Developers FG
[00:31] <cprofitt> again before I turn it over to UndiFineD
[00:31] <UndiFineD> no, not my topic
[00:32] <cprofitt> I want to clarify that we really do not 'request' members to join teams...
[00:32] <cprofitt> ok UndiFineD
[00:32] <cprofitt> we are all volunteers here... so it is more of a 'want to do this' than a request
[00:32]  * NRWlion gets a slight laugh in his face ;)
[00:33] <jledbetter> More activity would be nice :)
[00:33] <duanedesign> good point :) we are all here to have fun
[00:33] <s-fox> Yes, "fun"
[00:33] <duanedesign> ;)
[00:33] <cprofitt> we would love to see more activity... and would love to help those who want to contribute to the dev team
[00:33] <cprofitt> but we will not force you in to the Kings army :-)
[00:33] <cprofitt> or any such thing
[00:33] <jledbetter> cprofitt, Who's the active leader?
[00:34] <evilnhandler> jledbetter: Collin Pruitt
[00:34] <jledbetter> evilnhandler, Thank you
[00:34] <cprofitt> evilnhandler: we need to make him an admin on the LP team then
[00:35] <NRWlion> cprofitt, doubt that i would be helpful in -dev ;) absolutely no knowledge ;)
[00:35] <evilnhandler> cprofitt: He is a member of ~ubuntu-beginners-dev-owner
[00:35] <cprofitt> NRWlion: we want you to be involved where you are interested
[00:35] <cprofitt> evilnhandler: ok
[00:35] <NRWlion> i know. that was just on "we dont force you to the Kings army" ;)
[00:35] <cprofitt> :-)
[00:36] <cprofitt> [topic] Ubuntu for all
[00:36] <MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu for all
[00:36] <cprofitt> UndiFineD: you have the floor
[00:36] <UndiFineD> just raising awareness that this is a new team that got started by AlanBell
[00:36] <cprofitt> URL?
[00:37] <UndiFineD> it seems to be a somewhat cross-connecting team for every one
[00:37] <pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuForAll
[00:37] <pleia2> it's actually an old team, we're working to revive it a bit
[00:38] <cprofitt> pleia2: what is Ubuntu Younglings?
[00:38] <cprofitt> that is part of that
[00:38] <pleia2> cprofitt: AFAIK it's a proposal for kids (youth is more teenage)
[00:38] <MrChrisDruif> I think it totally embodies the Ubuntu ethos (UFA that is)
[00:38]  * cprofitt nods
[00:38] <cprofitt> and what is NGO?
[00:39] <pleia2> non-government organization, non-profits
[00:39]  * cprofitt nods
[00:39] <phillw> Non Governmetal Organisation
[00:39] <cprofitt> so a very broad project that is looking to ensure that people are included?
[00:39] <pleia2> more of an umbrella team
[00:39] <pleia2> just making sure all those projects are on track, or at least getting help if they need it
[00:39] <cprofitt> very much the way the BT envisions Accessibility...
[00:39] <ddecator> is there an lp group?
[00:39] <cprofitt> if I grasp it correctly
[00:40] <pleia2> there is a mailing list: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-for-all
[00:40] <cprofitt> I thank you all for making us aware of this umbrella team...
[00:40] <phillw> pleia2: as SII are doing for accessibility, I look forward to working closely with you.
[00:40] <UndiFineD> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-for-all
[00:41] <ddecator> UndiFineD: danke
[00:41] <cprofitt> I think a great many of these interests could be represented inside the BT as well...
[00:41] <cprofitt> at the very least we need to be aware of them
[00:41] <duanedesign> sounds great
[00:41] <pleia2> cprofitt: I have some follow-up to do with your WRT to BT & Ubuntu Women mentoring
[00:41] <pleia2> -to
[00:41]  * cprofitt nods to pleia
[00:42] <cprofitt> yep
[00:42] <cprofitt> [topic] folks needing a master
[00:42] <MootBot> New Topic:  folks needing a master
[00:42] <cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Membership
[00:42] <cprofitt> please look to the bottom of that page and make an effort to contact folks who are in your TZ
[00:43] <cprofitt> If you are unable to reach a person please contact me or another member of the council.
[00:43]  * ddecator wishes that list included what their interests are
[00:43] <duanedesign> ddecator: that is a good point
[00:43] <cprofitt> I know in some cases we have had people add their names to the list... and never join irc or answer emails... and we need to remove those folks
[00:43] <johnny77> but sometimes they may not know, right?
[00:43] <jledbetter> Some said in the email so we could add it.
[00:44] <ddecator> johnny77: just if they have any specific interests
[00:44] <jledbetter> cprofitt, True
[00:44] <duanedesign> though ideally they should send email...what jledbetter said :)
[00:44] <cprofitt> ddecator: yes, we removed the need to tell us what a person was interested in until they are looking for a mentor
[00:44] <duanedesign> ahh
[00:44] <cprofitt> if you are just looking to join the BT you may not know what you are interested in
[00:44] <cprofitt> that may develop as you grow with the team
[00:44] <ddecator> true, i would just prefer to take someone in my TZ who is interested in working with bugs just so i can possibly help them from the get-go :)
[00:45] <cprofitt> ddecator: but the original phase of being a master is just getting them setup with a LP account, wiki page, irc client, etc
[00:45] <ddecator> cprofitt: yah, true
[00:45] <cprofitt> I think any BT member should be able to handle that basic list
[00:46] <NRWlion> even i am able to
[00:46]  * ddecator will try to take on someone
[00:46] <cprofitt> it is difficult enough to find masters in some TZs -- having to match interests as well would really slow the process down
[00:46] <ddecator> we're allowed to have more than one padawan, right?
[00:46] <NRWlion> btw i am a new one too but dont need a master because already found one
[00:46] <cprofitt> you are allowed more than one padawan
[00:46] <MrChrisDruif> ddecator: Yes
[00:46] <ddecator> cprofitt: right, not having to match on interests, just doing so if it happens to work out that way, but i get your point
[00:47] <cprofitt> when you become a mentor -- we may want to revist that
[00:47] <cprofitt> so again... please look at the list of those seeking a master...
[00:47] <MrChrisDruif> NRWlion: It also stated on the line before it "... and have not yet been sponsored by a Master"
[00:47] <cprofitt> and look for them on irc or try to contact them
[00:48] <cprofitt> I would like to consider adding another column for 'contacted by'
[00:48] <NRWlion> sorry, its nearly 2 am here ... a little tired ;)
[00:48] <cprofitt> so we do not end up with a person getting 12 emails
[00:48] <cprofitt> anyone have an issue with that?
[00:48]  * NRWlion not
[00:48] <jledbetter> cprofitt, Great idea
[00:48] <ddecator> nah, that sounds like a good idea
[00:49] <cprofitt> ok --- contact by with a date stamp I think will help
[00:49]  * MrChrisDruif thinks that person would feel very special
[00:49] <ddecator> oh, that name looks familiar..
[00:49] <duanedesign> you could do  @SIG@
[00:49] <ddecator> jdeslaur has been in the team channel recently, yah?
[00:49] <cprofitt> +1 duanedesign
[00:49] <MrChrisDruif> ddecator: Yeah, he's been there before :)
[00:49] <cprofitt> ddecator: he has.. and I tried to contact jdselaur today
[00:50] <cprofitt> I did not get a response, but at least in channel
[00:50] <ddecator> alright, i could work with him/her unless you plan to already
[00:50] <ddecator> but that can be sorted out later
[00:50] <cprofitt> ddecator: be my guess
[00:50] <cprofitt> guest
[00:51] <cprofitt> It would be great for you to do it
[00:51] <hajour> jdeslaur is on his work when he is in chat here
[00:51] <ddecator> cprofitt: want me to add my sig on the wiki then?
[00:51] <cprofitt> ddecator: yes -- and add the column for contacted too please
[00:51] <ddecator> cprofitt: right, sure thing
[00:51] <cprofitt> also, as another note I would like Masters to review the
[00:51] <cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Mentors
[00:51] <hajour> so he is  not always able to response right away
[00:51] <cprofitt> page and remove any Padawan that you feel you have lost contact with
[00:52] <cprofitt> for my own part I will be removing three tonight... as I have not gotten any response from them... nor have I seen them in irc
[00:52] <cprofitt> I encourage you to do the same
[00:52] <duanedesign> yes we have needed to clean it up for awhile.
[00:52] <ddecator> james_w: thanks
[00:52] <cprofitt> it is inevitable that people will decide that BT is not for them... and that is ok
[00:52] <ddecator> woops
[00:53] <ddecator> hajour: ^^
[00:53] <phillw> mine just nag me to death... I wish they would leave me in peace somedays :P
[00:53] <cprofitt> any other questions?
[00:53] <duanedesign> i just want to say to everyone keep up the great work.
[00:53] <cprofitt> +1 duanedesign
[00:53] <johnny77> I'm not sure if this is a good time, but I was wondering if anyone has heard from seidos.
[00:54] <NRWlion> phillw, you ask me to do so ... :( :'(
[00:54] <jledbetter> I've seen him on the mailing list, johnny77
[00:54] <duanedesign> jledbetter: +1
[00:54] <duanedesign> as metta
[00:54] <cprofitt> johnny77: yes... I just talked to him earlier today
[00:54] <cprofitt> or at least I am pretty sure i did
[00:54] <UndiFineD> johnny77: I have spoken with him in private
[00:54] <duanedesign> :)
[00:54] <cprofitt> maybe it was on the mailing list
[00:54] <phillw> I also see him kicking around
[00:55] <cprofitt> thanks to everyone for coming to the meeting. This was an awesome turnout.
[00:55] <duanedesign> +1
[00:55] <jledbetter> See y'all in -team :D
[00:55] <cprofitt> #endmeeting
[00:55] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 18:55.
[00:55] <phillw> cprofitt: -council or PM?
[00:57] <UndiFineD> I am missing the topic of council elections !
[00:57] <jledbetter> UndiFineD, Going out via email to the list on how to vote :)
[00:57] <UndiFineD> oh ok
[00:59] <NRWlion> in that case i should visit my bed now
[01:00] <NRWlion> good n8 everyone
[16:03]  * mvo waves
[16:04] <robbiew> o/
[16:04] <robbiew> #startmeeting
[16:04] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:04. The chair is robbiew.
[16:04] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:05] <robbiew> [TOPIC] Apologies
[16:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  Apologies
[16:05] <ev> o/
[16:05] <robbiew> doko is out
[16:05] <robbiew> ...think that's it
[16:05] <robbiew> oh...jhunt too
[16:06] <robbiew> [TOPIC] Lightning Round
[16:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  Lightning Round
[16:06]  * robbiew grabs jhunt' status
[16:06]  * barry pre-apologizes for next week
[16:06] <robbiew> "Apologies from James. Updated Natty tech overview for Upstart. Worked on upstart "intro" docs. Merged visualisation branch into upstream and natty upstart branches. Lots of packaging fun + intrigue (thx cjwatson+mvo!). Lots of doc changes. Fixed gdm bug 436936, but after a number of branches and many, many pushes, it is not getting to the right place (I think the topic of bzr branches needs more focus in the UDD gui
[16:07] <robbiew> grr...did that all come through?
[16:07] <robbiew> cut-and-paste
[16:07] <cjwatson> cut off at "UDD gui"
[16:08] <robbiew> UDD guide - working out which branch to take and where you *can* push it under lp:~user without getting errors has taken way too much time IMHO).
[16:08] <robbiew> Currently finishing implementing review changes as suggested by cjwatson (1 item remaining) and then plan to work on finishing tests for keybuks branch, resolving bugs 728531 and 728988.  "
[16:08] <robbiew> cjwatson: he mentioned needing some help in pushing the fix for the gdm bug
[16:09] <cjwatson> I saw the scrollback about that, seemed to be confusion about namespacing
[16:09] <cjwatson> I'll check back with him when we're next both at work on the same day
[16:10] <robbiew> ev?
[16:10] <ev> Helped the design team intern get familiar with our tools and helped him refresh the installer slideshow. Taught ubiquity to offer Wubi when the partition table is full and copy it to the windows auto run folder (still need to teach Wubi to clean that up). Fixes to the recent installer changes, working with mpt to further refine. Travel to Pycon.
[16:10] <ev> And dealing with my laptop breaking and having to bring an old one up to speed.
[16:10] <ev> Done
[16:10] <robbiew> heh...the laptop you dropped?
[16:11] <ev> Well....yes
[16:11] <ev> :-/
[16:11] <robbiew> :P
[16:11] <cjwatson> I guess offering one thing that doesn't work (Wubi) is as good as offering another thing that doesn't work ;-)
[16:11] <ev> hahaha
[16:11] <robbiew> lol
[16:11] <cjwatson> (sorry, that was a cheap shot, not your fault ...)
[16:11] <robbiew> indeed
[16:11] <ev> I enjoyed it regardless
[16:11] <robbiew> it's the thought that counts
[16:12] <robbiew> thx ev
[16:12] <robbiew> barry?
[16:12] <ev> I am going to try to find some time to fix the issues I'm seeing with Wubi. Just need to get a copy of windows set up locally.
[16:12] <robbiew> ev: ack
[16:12] <barry> bug 724416 (claws-mail duplicate messages); bug 727988 (broken libgpgme.la), bug 719206 (csound import failure), bug 731421 (scons sync request and FFe), bug 730447; udd stakeholders meeting; udd docs merged into ubuntu packaging guide; patch pilot.  travel to pycon today, there until 3/18.  done.
[16:15]  * robbiew finishes reading through barry's bugs
[16:15] <robbiew> thnx
[16:15] <robbiew> mvo?
[16:15] <mvo> alpha3: app-install-data update, apt-ddtp update, command-not-found update, maverick->natty test upgrades
[16:15] <mvo> Apt-clone: cleanup commandline usage, more tests, fix issues around the upgrade
[16:15] <mvo> Apt: honor DPkg::Chroot-Dir in RunScripts*(), work on libudev fixes for when FSTAB_DIR is missing from the udev attributes, work on lp:~mvo/apt/sha512-template code, remove duplicated code
[16:15] <mvo> Aptdaemon: debug/fix crash in enable_component, add test, commmit to trunk, more tests, fix add_repository crash
[16:15] <mvo> Software-center: weblive, adding tests, branch merges, review/merge detailsview-stuff
[16:15] <mvo> Synaptic: prepare new upload/merge from debian
[16:15] <mvo> Unattended-upgrades: work on minimal upgrade steps in unattended-upgrade and push FFe
[16:16] <mvo> Update-manager: add alert when on 3g or roaming
[16:16] <mvo> (done)
[16:17] <robbiew> "Software-center: weblive,"
[16:17] <mvo> lalala
[16:17] <robbiew> is the option in natty?
[16:17] <mvo> just a tech demo
[16:17] <mvo> disabled by default
[16:17] <robbiew> heh
[16:17] <robbiew> no worries
[16:17] <robbiew> just wanted to know if I could play around with it :P
[16:17] <mvo> but if you run software-center --with-weblive its there and pretty cool (thanks to stgraber)
[16:17] <mvo> you need qtnx installed too
[16:18] <mvo> its definitely good stuff and worth playing with, works pretty well for me
[16:19] <robbiew> thnx mvo
[16:19] <robbiew> psurbhi: ?
[16:19] <psurbhi> *) introduced a timeout option in mountall. Can be changed with a command line argument: --dev-wait-time. Added support in mountall.conf to pass the kernel command line option "rootdelay" to mountall.
[16:19] <psurbhi> *) serialized the execution of the init-top, init-premount, local-top, local-premount and then mountall
[16:19] <psurbhi> *) made upstart scripts for inserting modules "loop, ubi, mtd" at startup. Need to add better error handling support.
[16:19] <psurbhi> *) analyzed the scripts in init-top, init-premount, local-top, local-premount across packages to see how they could be arranged.
[16:19] <psurbhi> *) analyzing the bottom scripts now.
[16:19] <psurbhi> *) should be soon ready with the current initramfs order of execution adapted in the event based initramfs (to the point of mounting the rootfs ro)
[16:19] <psurbhi> DONE
[16:20] <robbiew> psurbhi: thnx
[16:20] <robbiew> cjwatson: ?
[16:21] <cjwatson> done: patch pilot; banging head repeatedly against bug 693671 and remembering far more about x86 assembly than I wanted to; upstart reviews etc.
[16:21] <cjwatson> todo: dearly hoping to fix wubi before heat death of universe
[16:21] <cjwatson> sorry, not a lot to say this week :)
[16:21] <cjwatson> --
[16:22] <robbiew> cjwatson: statik mentioned that we have a Windows "expert" in online services...might be worth getting him to look at it
[16:23] <cjwatson> TBH this is not at the Windows level
[16:23] <robbiew> ack
[16:23] <ev> Which reminds me that I have an email from last year to write :-/
[16:23] <cjwatson> it's actually not in any Windows code
[16:23] <robbiew> just thinking he might also know x86 assembly ;)
[16:23] <psurbhi> heh...
[16:23]  * ev reads up on that bug
[16:24] <robbiew> [TOPIC] Natty
[16:24] <MootBot> New Topic:  Natty
[16:24] <robbiew> so with that...how is Natty going?
[16:24] <robbiew> heh
[16:24] <cjwatson> ev: (this is the kind of bug that makes me very worried about using wubi by default, FWIW ...)
[16:24]  * robbiew puts his fingers in his ears when he hears "wubi by default"
[16:24] <ev> I figured, though it will never be ready until we force it into the situation where we must fix these things
[16:25] <ev> If that means headcount, then it's my fault for not pushing on mark yet
[16:25]  * barry still can't keep his atheros wireless from crashing in natty on his mbp
[16:26] <ev> barry: Things to not mention the day before I go ahead and buy one :-P
[16:26] <cjwatson> ev: some of the problems here are very fundamental
[16:26] <ev> Oh?
[16:26] <cjwatson> the fact that NTLDR only loads 8KB of boot code makes life very difficult
[16:27] <barry> ev: well, to be fair, the mbp in question is a 1,1 so it's pretty old.  new ones might be better
[16:27] <cjwatson> while debugging this, I couldn't insert any debugging code without deleting other code
[16:27] <cjwatson> which means anything at that level that we can't reproduce ourselves is bound to be an absolute nightmare
[16:27] <barry> robbiew: we have a dozen bugs tagged with python27 in natty, though 2 are marked incomplete.  that's actually not too bad, but i'll tackle them when i get back
[16:28] <cjwatson> it was very fortunate that I could reproduce this bug; it could easily have been entirely intractable
[16:28] <robbiew> barry: ack, thx
[16:28] <barry> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=python27
[16:29]  * robbiew looks at http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations-ubuntu-11.04-beta-1.html
[16:29] <robbiew> heh...at least there's not much feature work
[16:29] <mvo> the hdd for the auto-upgrade-tester got approved, so hopefulyl python-all upgrades will be tested automaticially in the future
[16:30] <cjwatson> heh, that's a good demonstration of how we've sucked at subcycle WI management this cycle
[16:30] <robbiew> or how we rock!
[16:30] <robbiew> lol
[16:30]  * robbiew doesn't look at the bugs...that would ruin the joy
[16:30] <robbiew> ignorance is truly bliss
[16:31] <cjwatson> well, all of the WIs assigned to me on that list were completed sometime in the a2 timeframe
[16:31]  * mvo adds that two of his three are addressed (for b1)
[16:31] <cjwatson> which makes it kind of weird to look at :)
[16:32] <cjwatson> Can anyone who isn't on holiday or swap day or conference or whatever (if anyone) stand in for me at the release meeting on Friday?
[16:32] <cjwatson> I have a swap half-day that afternoon, assuming Robbie approves :)
[16:32] <ev> cjwatson: Understood and sorry for the delay - Spontaneous hall conversation. Do you thinks theres value in picking a grub version and freezing on it, given the fragile nature of these things?
[16:33] <mvo> cjwatson: if noone else volunteers I can do the meeting
[16:34] <robbiew> I think mvo has volunteered
[16:34] <robbiew> [TOPIC] AOB/Good News
[16:34] <MootBot> New Topic:  AOB/Good News
[16:34] <ev> barry: You're rubbish! Dinner tonight or tomorrow? :)
[16:35] <cjwatson> ev: I don't understand how freezing GRUB would help
[16:35] <cjwatson> (and it would certainly cause lots of other problems)
[16:35] <barry> ev: tonight would be good.  have you heard back from allison?  doko's there too
[16:35] <ev> It was seemingly working fine, without these issues in previous cycles
[16:36] <cjwatson> the major part of the problems are in code that runs before GRUB starts
[16:36] <ev> I had assumed this was a regression
[16:36] <cjwatson> it's not clear
[16:36] <cjwatson> there's some evidence that it may depend on details of the layout of your NTFS filesystem
[16:36] <cjwatson> at least parts of it
[16:36] <ev> Gay
[16:36] <ev> Gah
[16:36] <ev> Damn this iPad
[16:36] <cjwatson> :-)
[16:36] <mvo> …
[16:37] <cjwatson> I vaguely recall hangs a bit like this before that we could never track down
[16:37] <ev> I assure you that was autocorrect being PURE EVIL
[16:37] <cjwatson> mvo: thanks!
[16:37] <ev> hmm
[16:37]  * mvo mumbles something about the usefulness of keyboards
[16:37] <robbiew> lol
[16:38] <mvo> took me forever to preppare the last release meeting, maybe I'm quicker this time
[16:38] <robbiew> okay...calling this one done!
[16:38] <robbiew> #endmeeting
[16:38] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:38.
[16:38] <mvo> thanks
[16:38] <robbiew> thx all!
[16:39] <barry> thanks!  ev, see you in a few hours
[16:39] <ev> cjwatson: Don't get me wrong, I understand your concerns and share them, but I'm equally concerned with how hard it is to install ubuntu, despite our best efforts. I want to say maybe more automated testing is part of the answer here, but that's probably me just getting a big excited about test frameworks.
[16:39]  * barry -> pycon
[16:39] <ev> barry: Safe travels!
[16:39] <barry> thanks!
[16:39] <ev> Thanks all
[16:39] <cjwatson> ev: the worst problem here is lack of in-team expertise IMO
[16:40] <ev> In x86 assembly?
[16:40] <cjwatson> we're relying - in a way that I can't think of any way to unpick - on code that was abandoned upstream in 2009, that's intrinsically 7000 lines of x86 asm, and that nobody on the team knows.  I'm picking it up now but ...
[16:40] <cjwatson> to my knowledge there is no other code out there that could replace this, given the design of wubi
[16:41] <cjwatson> anyway, maybe I'm just over-focusing on my current problem.  it just gives me some pause
[16:42] <cjwatson> I agree that it's a valuable installation tool, which is why I'm working on it
[16:42] <ev> Not at all, I think you're entirely valid in being concerned.
[16:42] <cjwatson> but I worry about the possibility of a disconnect between engineering and marketing resulting in us advertising something that doesn't work and we can't fix it :)
[16:42] <ev> Oh definitely, and I'll do everything I can to prevent that from happening
[16:43] <ev> Its definitely not being pushed hard for 11.04
[16:43] <ev> And if we decide to go with it for 11.10 it will be with the request of your blessing and decided very early on so we can prepare adequate testing
[16:44] <ev> And with the understanding that we'll drop it if it's not stable
[16:45] <cjwatson> I think my basic problem here is that I'm not confident that we will always be able to fix critical problems; I don't know how I could become confident of that
[16:51] <ev> We could always go the grub on mbr + loopback if we decide the current path is unmaintainable. We lose the non destructiveness of it, but keep the ability to not have to resize partitions.
[16:51] <ev> Path*
[16:52] <ev> I'm definitely going to relay all this to Ale when I get back to the office, so the web team knows.