[15:03] <NCommander> #startmeeting
[15:03] <MootBot> Meeting started at 09:03. The chair is NCommander.
[15:03] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[15:03] <ogra> moo
[15:03]  * rsalveti waves
[15:03] <NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/20110310
[15:03] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/20110310
[15:03] <janimo> hello
[15:03] <NCommander> so who's here?
[15:03] <rsalveti> I'm not
[15:03] <davidm> Hi
[15:04] <NCommander> [topic] Action Items
[15:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  Action Items
[15:04] <NCommander> [topic] ogra to fix WI tracker
[15:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  ogra to fix WI tracker
[15:04] <ogra> hmm, havent checked it yet, but it should be fine now
[15:05] <NCommander> [topic] everyone to check their WI status on the whiteboards that the right beta tag is set
[15:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  everyone to check their WI status on the whiteboards that the right beta tag is set
[15:05] <ogra> looks fine
[15:06] <ogra> NCommander, no beta WIs for you at all ?
[15:06] <ogra> everyone else seems to show up
[15:07] <NCommander> ogra: my one spec was axed because you, me,a nd persia agreed the design was unworkable for generic subarch support
[15:07] <ogra> well, i guess you still have enough mono to do ;)
[15:07] <NCommander> ...
[15:08] <NCommander> [topic] Standing Items
[15:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  Standing Items
[15:08] <NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel.html
[15:08] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel.html
[15:08] <NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-ubuntu-11.04-beta-1.html
[15:08] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-ubuntu-11.04-beta-1.html
[15:08] <rsalveti> most my WI related to GLES are basically waiting the implementation to finish
[15:08] <rsalveti> so no much to do
[15:08] <rsalveti> then just remain the others
[15:09] <rsalveti> webkit fix is now uploaded, and should hit the archive soon
[15:09] <rsalveti> then we can go back and use ubiquity with the slideshow
[15:09] <NCommander> rsalveti: once we have it confirmed fixed, I'll delete the livecd-rootfs hack
[15:09]  * ogra still cant remember what packageselection-arm-n-device-type-detection meant
[15:10] <rsalveti> NCommander: I tested already with a preinstalled image
[15:10] <ogra> err, the Wi i have for that
[15:10] <rsalveti> NCommander: and it worked fine, just need to wait it to build and hit the archive
[15:10] <rsalveti> and that will take between 1 and 2 days
[15:10] <ogra> persia, i think that was yours, could you somehow brief me again offline ?
[15:11] <NCommander> anything else on the WIs?
[15:12] <ogra> i wonder if we shouldnt remove the ppa cluster
[15:12] <ogra> davidm, ^^^
[15:12] <NCommander> ^- davidm
[15:12] <ogra> its totally not bound to release cycle but makes us look slightly bad
[15:12] <ogra> i think we're doing really great, but thanks to that spec the tracker doesnt really reflect that
[15:13] <rsalveti> it's not something that affect the release
[15:13] <ogra> yeah, thats what i mean
[15:13] <rsalveti> it's more a launchpad feature than ubuntu, in some way
[15:13] <NCommander> ogra: maybe simply target it to O cycle?
[15:14] <ogra> NCommander, right, something like that, but its davids spec and his decision
[15:14] <ogra> seems he's not around so lets move
[15:14] <ogra> we can clearify that later
[15:14] <NCommander> [topic] Unity 2D Status
[15:14] <MootBot> New Topic:  Unity 2D Status
[15:14] <ogra> will see an update before end of the week
[15:14] <NCommander> cool
[15:14] <ogra> lots of fixes in trunk we dont have in the image/archive yet
[15:15] <ogra> nothing new otherwise
[15:15] <NCommander> anything else?
[15:15] <ogra> not from me
[15:15] <NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, rsalveti)
[15:15] <MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney, rsalveti)
[15:15] <ogra> where is our .38 build ?
[15:16] <ogra> i thought GrueMaster approved it
[15:16] <rsalveti> no other news beside the same package from last week that GrueMaster tested
[15:16] <davidm> I pulled the PPA cluster from the timeline
[15:16] <ogra> davidm, thanks :)
[15:16] <davidm> and removed it from natty entirely
[15:16] <GrueMaster> I did.
[15:16] <ogra> move it to O
[15:16] <davidm> I did  that weeks and weeks ago
[15:16] <rsalveti> GrueMaster reported back to cooloney, but now it'd probably be good to reply the email thread saying we want it by default
[15:16] <ogra> it makes us look good from the beginning :)
[15:16] <rsalveti> and change the boot.scr arguments, to use the DVI output
[15:16] <ogra> ah, right
[15:16] <GrueMaster> I did that as well (I think).
[15:17] <ogra> rsalveti, how will we handle upgrades =
[15:17] <davidm> ogra, it's it's still showing up let me know what I need to do to remove it entirely
[15:17] <ogra> we still have no solution for that
[15:17] <GrueMaster> email that is.
[15:17] <ogra> yes, i saw GrueMaster's mail
[15:17] <ogra> i dont think there should be any blocker
[15:17] <ogra> statement was clear
[15:17] <rsalveti> no, and we could just do the switch
[15:17] <rsalveti> for the update I believe we could just document it for now
[15:18] <rsalveti> otherwise we would need to hack the boot args
[15:18] <rsalveti> but the user will need to change the cable anyway
[15:18] <ogra> yes, i actually did expect tim had done it after GrueMaster's mail
[15:18] <rsalveti> yup, that's whay it may need another email requesting it
[15:19] <ogra> well, i'll use IRC ;)
[15:19]  * ogra pinged tim
[15:19] <rsalveti> :-)
[15:19] <ogra> i still would like to have a proper upgrade path though
[15:19] <rsalveti> GrueMaster: anything to report for the kernel tests?
[15:19]  * janimo is running the 2.6.38-1024-omap4 kernel from PPA, looks fine after a few days
[15:19] <rsalveti> yeah, it'd be good to have
[15:20] <ogra> i.e. some message from update-manager "please plug your cable into the dvi port after reboot"
[15:20] <janimo> headless only though, mostly building workloads
[15:20] <ogra> thats the least we should have
[15:20] <rsalveti> ogra: yup, that can be changed at the package itself?
[15:20] <rsalveti> like a postinst?
[15:20] <ogra> there is a script in u-m somewhere
[15:21] <ogra> we added a warning for ARMv5 vs v6 between karmic and jaunty
[15:21] <rsalveti> ogra: ok, so should we wait this to be done before putting it as default?
[15:21] <rsalveti> I can dig to see what was done
[15:21] <ogra> dyfet was actually supposed to add a v7 warning too and never managed
[15:21] <GrueMaster> This is only temporary though, right?
[15:21] <ogra> i think that can happen hand in hand
[15:21] <rsalveti> it shuold be
[15:21] <ogra> GrueMaster, we dont know if it will be solved by release
[15:21] <rsalveti> before the release we want to use hdmi again
[15:22] <rsalveti> and have a proper driver
[15:22] <ogra> sure
[15:22] <ogra> but we dont have it at all yet
[15:22] <rsalveti> no, and not completely sure if TI will manage to implemente the hdmi driver
[15:23] <rsalveti> but that's another problem
[15:23] <ogra> so at least being prepared for such a warning in u-m before string freeze is needed
[15:23] <ogra> we can still drop it
[15:23] <rsalveti> ok, will look to have it
[15:23] <ogra> ok, kernel switch triggered, tim is building it now
[15:23] <rsalveti> awesome
[15:23] <rsalveti> any other question for kernel?
[15:23] <ogra> (seems he missed GrueMaster's mail)
[15:23] <davidm> outstanding
[15:24] <rsalveti> ogra: guess he was waiting the reply at the pull request email
[15:24] <ogra> GrueMaster, use a <blink> tag in the subject line in the future ;)
[15:24]  * NCommander is having chromium stability issues this morning :-(
[15:24] <NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
[15:24] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
[15:24] <GrueMaster> Interesting.  We even discussed it on IRC.
[15:25] <ogra> GrueMaster, but you didnt use <blink> there either :P
[15:25] <janimo> some progress on FTBFS count
[15:25] <NCommander> So on ARM porting, I'm kinda grinding my gears w.r.t. to mono
[15:25] <janimo> closed a few arm-porting-queue tagged bugs
[15:25] <NCommander> We've gotthe SMP patch which does wonders for the mono 2.10 test suite (and was incorperated in the 2.10.1 release)
[15:25] <ogra> NCommander, do we need to send Tobin some earplugs ?
[15:25] <janimo> including the two outstanding Qt ones (pending a test for neon still)
[15:26] <NCommander> but I'm not making any headway with a successful backport to 2.6, I think the underlying mono crashes are coming from PInvoke() failures in Gtk#
[15:26] <NCommander> but it seems odd to me that they're over occuring in 1-processor mode
[15:27] <janimo> NCommander, can we just apply the membarrier patch to 2.6 and do an upload, if it is clearly needed even if does not seem to direclty impact banshee?
[15:27] <NCommander> I was able to produce the same failures on Debian sid, so at least I've ruled out thumb2 as the immediate cause
[15:27] <ogra> we could just quickly rewrite banshee in C :)
[15:27] <NCommander> janimo: I can do that, but I don't really want to do multiple mono uploads
[15:28] <NCommander> janimo: are you sure banshee fully worked when in nosmp mode? Its slightly more stable, but trying to do anything like play music or rescan library causes a crash
[15:28] <NCommander> (also, f-spot is still crashing)
[15:28] <ogra> luckily we dont ship f-spot anymore since maverick
[15:28] <janimo> NCommander, no I am not sure at all. rsalveti and GrueMaster looked at nosmp testing in more detail
[15:28] <ogra> how is tomboy
[15:28] <NCommander> ogra: its still a valid test case
[15:28] <NCommander> ogra: tomboy works
[15:28] <GrueMaster> Tomboy never failed.
[15:28] <ogra> we usually had it working while all other apps failed
[15:29] <ogra> right
[15:29] <NCommander> rsalveti: ^- banshee nosmp question
[15:29] <GrueMaster> My guess is that it is not multithreaded.
[15:29] <janimo> The bug is probably in mono but some apps manage to not trigger it
[15:29] <NCommander> janimo: well, that's why I think its pinvoke()
[15:29] <janimo> depending on how Gtk intesive they are
[15:29] <ogra> tomboy is really trivial indeed
[15:29] <NCommander> (for reference sake, pinvoke is the magic C# to C binding)
[15:29] <rsalveti> I just tested with banshee
[15:29] <janimo> NCommander, IIRc in Dallas I managed to get stable banshee if I uninstalled the default theme
[15:29] <janimo> and using some ghetto default
[15:30] <janimo> gtk theme that is
[15:30] <NCommander> janimo: doesn't work here, I have it using no theme and still crash city
[15:30] <NCommander> rsalveti: right, but what did you do in banshee beside launch it?
[15:30] <rsalveti> NCommander: use it normally, playing music and such
[15:30] <janimo> nothing, look at the About menu :)
[15:30] <GrueMaster> NCommander: I played audio for a good hour on my BeagleXM
[15:30] <rsalveti> yeah, it was quite stable
[15:30] <NCommander> grumble
[15:31] <NCommander> I guess I need to run the test suite in nosmp mode and see if we still get failures or if we're looking at a red hearing
[15:31] <janimo> GrueMaster, never had crash recently on single core?
[15:31] <GrueMaster> Could be we are seeing multiple issues.
[15:31] <NCommander> What's making things difficult w.r.t. to backporting is the JIT is passing all the tests
[15:31] <NCommander> And between 2.6 -> 2.10, someone added iPhone support
[15:31] <NCommander> which means there's a TON of commits clogging up the works
[15:31] <rsalveti> ouch :-(
[15:32] <NCommander> plus I'm not even sure mono is fixed in 2.10 since I can't run banshee without spending a week recompiling the entire stack
[15:32] <rsalveti> argh, problem of using a quite old version
[15:32] <NCommander> (I'm semi-tempted to throw Gentoo ina  chroot and test it that way)
[15:32] <janimo> NCommander, right, when I looked I could find may arm commits but nothing which wuld imply it fixes some tests
[15:32] <NCommander> janimo: I'm almost thinking it probably got improved as part of the iPhon10:30:37 < janimo> nothing, look at the About menu :)
[15:32] <NCommander> 10:30:49 < GrueMaster> NCommander: I played audio for a good hour on my  BeagleXM
[15:32] <NCommander> 10:31:02 < rsalveti> yeah, it was quite stable
[15:32] <janimo> NCommander, or Suse or any distro with new mono I guess
[15:32] <NCommander> &^%$@$!#
[15:32] <janimo> ah they may not have arm
[15:32] <NCommander> janimo: SuSE doesn't have an ARM port
[15:33] <rsalveti> fedora?
[15:33] <NCommander> hrm
[15:33]  * NCommander looks
[15:33] <janimo> probably not very wdely tested
[15:33] <rsalveti> or OE
[15:33] <GrueMaster> Fedora has an arm port in the works (I think).
[15:33] <rsalveti> but then don't know if they are building banshee and mono
[15:34] <rsalveti> there is a mono recipe at OE, but 2.6.3
[15:34] <ogra> doesnt OE even default to hardfloat ?
[15:34] <NCommander> they've got banshee available for Fedora
[15:35] <ogra> that should have build options close to ours (v7 thumb2)
[15:35] <rsalveti> don't think they already changed it
[15:35] <NCommander> ogra: I already elimated v7+thumb2 as the cause of the regression
[15:35] <NCommander> bah
[15:35] <NCommander> Fedora is shipping 2.6 still
[15:35] <rsalveti> argh
[15:35] <rsalveti> who is using 2.10?
[15:35] <rsalveti> opensuse only?
[15:35] <ogra> megoo ?
[15:35] <NCommander> checking
[15:35] <ogra> did anyone check there
[15:35] <NCommander> ogra: no
[15:36] <janimo> various IPhone and Android 3rd partuy apps maybe
[15:36] <NCommander> ogra: but its of limited use. the problem is the entire dependency stack
[15:36] <NCommander> Might simply need to build a chroot then build mono + gtksharp + everything else from scratch
[15:36]  * NCommander wimpers
[15:36]  * GrueMaster votes to bag mono for this cycle - again.
[15:36] <NCommander> but I think we need to confirm 2.10 is regression free
[15:36] <rsalveti> GrueMaster: it'd be nice to have
[15:36] <janimo> NCommander, does C# have the equivalent of inline functions, so Gtk sharp has some bits unless rebuilt against a new mono, even if we upload a fixed mono?
[15:36] <ogra> GrueMaster, that means we need to take over rhythmbox mainteanance
[15:36] <rsalveti> and it seems we're getting closer somehow
[15:37] <NCommander> janimo: nout out of the box
[15:37] <NCommander> at least
[15:37] <NCommander> I don't think so
[15:37] <NCommander> janimo: I know the official Microsoftimplementation can make native code .exe's
[15:37] <NCommander> I don't know if mono embeds native code into the generated PE files
[15:37] <GrueMaster> NCommander: Instead of trying to build it locally, should it go in a ppa?
[15:38] <NCommander> GrueMaster: repackaging mono for 2.10 would be an absolute nightmare
[15:38] <NCommander> and I'm not confortable in my packaging skills to try it
[15:38] <janimo> NCommander, well it is packaged for Deb as you said, just too risky to sync at this point
[15:39] <NCommander> janimo: its not uploaded, the transition is sitll in progress
[15:39] <janimo> I say we should keep debugging (I will help as well) and only keep Rhythmbox if we cannot fix it say 2 weeks before release
[15:39] <ogra> and what would we gain ? we cant upload it at all without affecting the other arches
[15:40] <ogra> 2.10 is clearly not natty for the others
[15:40] <NCommander> ogra: right, but we need to make sure that 2.10 is fixed. At the very release, O cycle which we could ship 2.10 will work
[15:40] <ogra> sure
[15:40] <NCommander> if we know 2.10 works, then we can bisect, and deal with all the iphoneos patches
[15:40] <NCommander> but I don't want to deal with that without a "verification-confirmed" in hand :-P
[15:41] <rsalveti> yeah, we need to test with 2.10
[15:41] <rsalveti> or git upstream
[15:41] <NCommander> I'll work with git, since I at least have been making progress with mono upstream devs :-)
[15:41] <NCommander> actually
[15:41] <rsalveti> well, it should work :-)
[15:41]  * NCommander checks gentoo very quickly
[15:41] <NCommander> if I can do 'emerge banshee' and let it run for a day, I'd be happy
[15:42] <janimo> NCommander, so gentoo has good arm support?
[15:42] <rsalveti> Nafallo: http://packages.gentoo.org/package/dev-lang/mono
[15:42]  * ogra would suspect OE to be easier
[15:42] <NCommander> oh right, nuts
[15:42] <NCommander> gentoo's ARM port is kinda ...
[15:42] <GrueMaster> If I may, we don't want to throw all or even most of our engineering effort at one package.  We have enough other stuff that is in the image that needs attention.
[15:42] <rsalveti> janimo: it would be easier to have an arm rootfs
[15:42] <NCommander> in the same state as its m68k port
[15:42] <janimo> NCommander, one of the mono arm devs is from Budapest, worst case we track him down at UDS and let him fix this :)
[15:43] <rsalveti> Nafallo: sorry
[15:43] <rsalveti> NCommander: http://packages.gentoo.org/package/dev-lang/mono
[15:43] <rsalveti> 2.10.1-r1
[15:43] <NCommander> davidm: I think a bit of direction is needed: how high is mono on the priority list
[15:43]  * Nafallo steps away from the gentoo.
[15:43] <rsalveti> and banshee 1.8.1
[15:43] <Nafallo> no worries
[15:43] <NCommander> rsalveti: right but its masked to powerpc/amd64/i386 only. There's an armel overlay but this is leading to the path to madness
[15:43]  * ogra guesses the banshee shop is pretty high
[15:43] <rsalveti> argh, no easy path
[15:44] <NCommander> rsalveti: right, so best bet is to simply try and build mono stack by hand and pray
[15:44] <rsalveti> yeah
[15:44] <ogra> NCommander, really, take OE
[15:44] <janimo> GrueMaster, well I mean since our WIs seem to be getting close to solved and we get into more bugfixing mode, this is one important bug. Of course we should see if there are other more important issues
[15:44] <NCommander> [action] NCommander to build mono stack by hand and confirm 2.10 fixes mono regression
[15:44] <MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to build mono stack by hand and confirm 2.10 fixes mono regression
[15:44] <NCommander> ogra: looking at OE, I don't even see a package list
[15:45] <janimo> NCommander, but debian arm does not experience this crash een on 2.6 ?
[15:45] <rsalveti> ogra: mono is still 2.6
[15:45] <rsalveti> so he would first need to update the mono recipe
[15:45] <rsalveti> and that can take the same amount of work as updating the ubuntu package by hand
[15:45] <NCommander> janimo: no, it does
[15:46] <NCommander> rsalveti: I was able to reproduce the crash in a Sid chroot with the SMP patch
[15:47] <janimo> NCommander, great than. I had the impression we were special because of ARMv7 and newer toolchain
[15:47] <NCommander> janimo: its probably a good idea to have someone double check my results to make sure I made no error
[15:47] <janimo> NCommander, do we absolutely rule out hw errors
[15:47] <janimo> panda kernel/memory stuff
[15:47] <NCommander> janimo: mono devs did report they don't see issues on tegra
[15:48] <NCommander> although I'm blocking if that's SMP or not
[15:48] <janimo> that is SMP AFAIK
[15:48] <ogra> all tegra2 cpus are multicore
[15:48] <NCommander> my tegra system is currently got a trashed install on it
[15:48] <GrueMaster> Was it tegra or tegra 2?
[15:48] <NCommander> ogra: can you easy test banshee?
[15:48] <ogra> only on maverick
[15:48] <NCommander> oh, argh
[15:48] <ogra> i cant upgrade to natty
[15:48] <NCommander> ogra: we had the issue with maverick I believe
[15:49] <NCommander> ^as well
[15:49] <janimo> ogra, it used to fail on maverick too so ok
[15:49] <GrueMaster> Yes, we did.
[15:49] <ogra> right, what would a test on tegra improve here ?
[15:49] <NCommander> [action] ogra to determine if mono still crashes on tegra
[15:49] <ogra> for maverick
[15:49] <MootBot> ACTION received:  ogra to determine if mono still crashes on tegra
[15:49] <NCommander> ogra: rules out panda HW.
[15:49] <ogra> k
[15:49] <rsalveti> well, mono version from maverick is quite the same
[15:49] <NCommander> you probably need the SMP patch
[15:50] <rsalveti> NCommander: don't you also have a ac100 in hands?
[15:50] <NCommander> rsalveti: the install is trashed
[15:50] <rsalveti> hehe :-)
[15:50] <GrueMaster> Best to fail first, then test the fix.
[15:50] <ogra> yeah, and restoring an SD takes 10mins
[15:51] <rsalveti> wrong window
[15:51] <NCommander> right, we're running out of time
[15:51] <NCommander> so lets take this offline
[15:51] <ogra> ++
[15:51] <rsalveti> yup, move
[15:51] <NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
[15:51] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
[15:51] <ogra> headless is there !!!
[15:51] <ogra> :)
[15:51] <NCommander> go ogra + janimo
[15:51] <rsalveti> \o/
[15:52] <GrueMaster> Needs work, but it is booting.
[15:52] <ogra> bug 732576 needs some testing for the fis
[15:52] <ogra> *fix
[15:52] <ogra> should be in the next ubiquity upload, i'll test the fix after meeting
[15:52] <ogra> serial by default is still miissing
[15:53] <davidm> NCommander, sorry was pulled away on a call
[15:53] <ogra> and to make GrueMaster happy i hardcoded "localhost" as hostname for all preinstalled images today ;)
[15:53] <davidm> mono is important
[15:54] <ogra> Bug 732581 is an intresting one
[15:54] <NCommander> davidm: not a problem
[15:54] <NCommander> davidm: ok, just wanted to make sure I wasjustified to continue working on it
[15:54] <davidm> NCommander, we need to fix it, if at all possible
[15:54] <ogra> i would like to see someone test on a beagle
[15:54] <GrueMaster> ogra: Will do later this am.
[15:54] <ogra> since i'm not sure its the panda framebuffer being broken here
[15:55] <ogra> GrueMaster, just wait for the next build, that shuld also have the ubiquity-dm fix so you dont need to tinker with the image
[15:55] <GrueMaster> k
[15:56] <ogra> headless will be the first image to build every day, ist also the fastest build (shoudl be available at 00:30 UTC)
[15:56] <ogra> so we can easily test core bits before netbook gets built
[15:56] <GrueMaster> Especially if netbook crashes.
[15:57] <ogra> yep
[15:57] <rsalveti> awesome
[15:57] <janimo> NCommander, to avoid building the whole stack of mono, you may first build banshee from source too with a minimal set of dependencies and plugins which still lead to crash
[15:57] <ogra> its a good measure
[15:57] <ogra> .. done with image status
[15:57] <NCommander> janimo: I'm going to follow the instructions on the website to build banshee
[15:57] <NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster)
[15:57] <MootBot> New Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster)
[15:58] <NCommander> janimo: I don't think it will be TOO bad
[15:58] <GrueMaster> Documented installation process at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/HeadlessInstall
[15:58] <janimo> NCommander, ok, I now it has lots of plugins enabled as it is
[15:58] <ogra> meh
[15:58] <GrueMaster> For the minimal image.
[15:58] <NCommander> janimo: almost all ship with banshee
[15:58] <ogra> GrueMaster, can you follow the naming scheme thats on /OMAP
[15:59] <ogra> since thats what we link from the image download pages
[15:59] <GrueMaster> ogra: I left it this way in case we start building more images for other platforms next cycle.  Reduce wiki clutter.
[15:59] <janimo> NCommander, right. I mean if there are plugins written in C# which now ship, but which if disabled still crash banshee, those you don;t need to include in the full rebuild
[15:59] <ogra> GrueMaster, well, it should be linked from /OMAP and have a releasename in the url
[15:59] <NCommander> janimo: fair enough
[16:00]  * GrueMaster waits for mono discussion to finish.
[16:00] <GrueMaster> ogra: This was also just a first run.
[16:00] <janimo> uh sorry, I brought it up again
[16:01] <GrueMaster> Time's up.
[16:01] <ogra> GrueMaster, yeah https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/OMAP links to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/OMAPMaverickInstall and should also link to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/OMAPNattyInstall ...
[16:01]  * NCommander can't remember if we're running into another meeting
[16:01] <ogra> make the headless instructions a link on the natty one
[16:01] <NCommander> [topic] Any Other Business
[16:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
[16:01] <NCommander> (very quickly :-))
[16:01] <ogra> NCommander, finish, we can take the rest offline
[16:02] <NCommander> #endmeeting
[16:02] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:02.
[17:59] <pitti> mdz, kees, cjwatson: TB meeting in 1 min?
[17:59] <pitti> no trace of sabdfl or Keybuk
[17:59] <kees> pitti: hola. I emailed keybuk just now
[17:59] <kees> pitti: haven't heard back though
[18:00] <mdz> hi pitti
[18:00]  * pitti still chews up the last bits of his dinner
[18:00] <mdz> #startmeeting
[18:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 12:00. The chair is mdz.
[18:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[18:01] <pitti> ah, you're chairing? thanks
[18:01]  * pitti just noticed that he is signed up as fallback, but I don't insist :)
[18:02] <mdz> I have done zero prep, because I thought someone else was chairing, and didn't get a response when I asked on the list
[18:02] <mdz> there were no minutes sent out for the previous meeting, so I don't know if there were any actions
[18:02] <kees> I updated the agenda about 15 min ago with the statuses from the last meeting
[18:03] <pitti> $ bzr lp-propose
[18:03] <pitti> bzr: ERROR: No reviewer specified
[18:03] <pitti> sorry, -EFOCUS
[18:03] <kees> mdz: I don't see your email to the list either
[18:04] <mdz> http://www.novarata.net/mootbot/ubuntu-meeting.log.20110222_0932.html
[18:04] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.novarata.net/mootbot/ubuntu-meeting.log.20110222_0932.html
[18:04] <mdz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
[18:04] <mdz> kees, thanks for that
[18:04] <kees> np
[18:04] <mdz> looks like the actions are all done
[18:04] <mdz> [topic] Quarterly brainstorm review (mdz)
[18:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  Quarterly brainstorm review (mdz)
[18:05] <mdz> so it's been 3 months since the last one, so it's time for the second installment of the brainstorm review
[18:05] <mdz> I would be grateful if someone else could drive it this time
[18:05] <mdz> it's not a huge amount of work, but requires some day-to-day care and feeding to keep things moving
[18:06] <mdz> I can share the email templates, blog text, spreadsheet, etc. which I used the last time
[18:06] <pitti> that would be helpful indeed
[18:06] <kees> mdz: what was your criteria for what to respond to out of all the stuff there?
[18:06] <pitti> so that was about reviewing the top n and picking out the sensible stuff?
[18:07] <pitti> I think I can squeeze in some time for that
[18:07] <mdz> pitti, yes
[18:07] <mdz> kees, I more or less picked the top 10 off of the "most popular over 6 months" list
[18:07] <mdz> though I would be glad to see some experimentation there
[18:07] <mdz> I think there are lots of valid ways to select the best ones
[18:07] <kees> mdz: I assume we should ignore the ones that we already responded to?
[18:08] <mdz> kees, not necessarily
[18:08] <mdz> I think it depends on what it is, and what's happened
[18:08] <mdz> certainly for the ones being worked on, I expect something has happened in the past 3 months that's worth mentioning
[18:09] <pitti> sounds like applying some common sense
[18:09] <kees> yeah
[18:09] <mdz> yep
[18:09] <pitti> mdz: I'm happy to sign up for this round
[18:09] <mdz> it should be much easier this time around because you can just follow the process if you want
[18:09] <mdz> pitti, sound good?
[18:10] <pitti> yep
[18:10] <mdz> great, done
[18:10] <mdz> [action] pitti to kick off brainstorm review
[18:10] <MootBot> ACTION received:  pitti to kick off brainstorm review
[18:10] <mdz> [action] mdz to send materials to pitti
[18:10] <MootBot> ACTION received:  mdz to send materials to pitti
[18:10] <mdz> [topic] mailing list scan
[18:10] <MootBot> New Topic:  mailing list scan
[18:11] <mdz> I saw this and wasn't sure if it had been dealt with:
[18:11] <mdz> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-March/000713.html
[18:11] <mdz> uTouch package set and Chase Douglas' application for upload right	to it
[18:11] <pitti> I set up the package group yesterday
[18:11] <pitti> cnd can upload now, he tested it
[18:11] <pitti> I think that's done
[18:12] <pitti> I'll follow up
[18:12] <mdz> [action] pitti to respond to uTouch package set request
[18:12] <MootBot> ACTION received:  pitti to respond to uTouch package set request
[18:12] <mdz> pitti, thanks
[18:12] <mdz> [topic] administration of ubuntu-release
[18:12] <MootBot> New Topic:  administration of ubuntu-release
[18:12] <mdz> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-March/000721.html
[18:13] <mdz> [link] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-March/000721.html
[18:13] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-March/000721.html
[18:13] <mdz> cjwatson asked about this, and I suggested that it should be a TB decision
[18:13] <kees> I think it's fine for skaet to be admin there; as long as TB remains an admin as well. (this was one of the proposals from the thread, IIRC)
[18:13] <mdz> presently, ubuntu-release is owned by me (mdz) and cjwatson is the only administrator
[18:13] <pitti> I'd just make it easy and set both her and TB as admin
[18:14] <Keybuk> the question here is whether the release manager can add new people to the ubuntu-release team without requiring TB approval/rubber stamping?
[18:14] <pitti> hey Keybuk, howdy
[18:14] <mdz> I think the owner of the team should be TB, rather than me, and would like to just go ahead and do that. any objections?
[18:14] <Keybuk> historically this was always "yes" ?  in which case having kate + TB as admins seems entirely appropriate to me
[18:14] <kees> mdz: no objection from me
[18:14] <Keybuk> (or TB as owner, kate as admin)
[18:14] <pitti> mdz: +1
[18:14] <Keybuk> mdz: +1
[18:15] <mdz> [agreed] techboard should be the owner of ubuntu-release
[18:15] <MootBot> AGREED received:  techboard should be the owner of ubuntu-release
[18:15] <mdz> (done)
[18:15] <pitti> mdz: wrt ML scan: "01.03.11 18:30 Michael Bienia    Re: Application for Per-Package Upload rights"
[18:15] <kees> right, delegating this kind of thing is what we've tried to do. I think that's consistent here.
[18:15] <pitti> mdz: I'll get to that after the meeting
[18:15] <mdz> Keybuk, yes, the question is whether the TB should manage membership in ubuntu-release or whether it should be delegated to the release manager
[18:15] <pitti> mdz: that was for Serge
[18:15] <pitti> (sorry, thought we were done)
[18:16] <mdz> pitti, oh, good catch, I thought that was a dupe of the other one
[18:16] <mdz> [action] pitti to add PPU rights for Serge Hallyn per ML
[18:16] <MootBot> ACTION received:  pitti to add PPU rights for Serge Hallyn per ML
[18:16] <mdz> Keybuk, yes, I believe cjwatson became admin in his capacity as RM
[18:16] <mdz> as opposed to TB
[18:17] <mdz> so historically, the RM has had this ability, though it's a bit of a grey area since he was also on the TB
[18:18] <Keybuk> indeed
[18:18] <Keybuk> but only grey if you don't know the history
[18:18] <mdz> so the proposal is to make Kate the admin of ubuntu-release, as official RM delegate from the TB
[18:19] <mdz> a bit late, given she's been doing the job for a while
[18:19] <mdz> any questions on that or shall we vote?
[18:20] <kees> it's clear to me. I'm ready for a vote.
[18:20] <Keybuk> no, question or objections
[18:20] <mdz> [vote] Kate Stewart to be confirmed as release manager as a delegation from the TB, and admin of the ubuntu-release team
[18:20] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Kate Stewart to be confirmed as release manager as a delegation from the TB, and admin of the ubuntu-release team.
[18:20] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[18:20] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[18:20] <Keybuk> +1
[18:20] <MootBot> +1 received from Keybuk. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[18:20] <mdz> +1
[18:20] <MootBot> +1 received from mdz. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[18:20] <kees> +1
[18:20] <MootBot> +1 received from kees. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[18:20] <pitti> +1
[18:20] <MootBot> +1 received from pitti. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[18:20] <mdz> #endvote
[18:20] <mdz> [endvote]
[18:20] <MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
[18:20] <mdz> [action] mdz to update LP accordingly
[18:20] <MootBot> ACTION received:  mdz to update LP accordingly
[18:21] <mdz> [topic] community bugs
[18:21] <MootBot> New Topic:  community bugs
[18:21] <mdz> my understanding is that further action on our old friend, bug 174375, is blocked on bug 451390
[18:21] <mdz> so I added an ubuntu-community task and TB assignment for that bug, so that we track it
[18:22] <cjwatson> urgh, sorry I forgot about this meeting; I've been on holiday today
[18:22] <mdz> it looks like it just got escalated an hour ago via flacoste (thanks to whomever did that)
[18:22]  * cjwatson skims scrollback
[18:23] <mdz> so I think we don't need to do anything just yet and should wait to see what happens with 451390
[18:23] <cjwatson> FWIW I think I was admin of ubuntu-release before I was on the TB
[18:23] <cjwatson> though haven't checked dates
[18:23] <mdz> cjwatson, indeed, I was just thinking that
[18:23] <mdz> [topic] AOB
[18:23] <MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
[18:24] <pitti> mdz: still from ML scan: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-January/000670.html
[18:24] <mdz> anything else?
[18:24] <pitti> rather old, we failed to spot it earlier
[18:24] <mdz> pitti, oh, I completely missed that
[18:24] <mdz> [topic] SRU for w3m
[18:24] <MootBot> New Topic:  SRU for w3m
[18:24] <mdz> [link] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-January/000670.html
[18:24] <pitti> IMHO it's a "low risk, low profit" thing
[18:24] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-January/000670.html
[18:25] <mdz> it's in relation to bug 523229
[18:25] <pitti> I don't think many users would suddenly expect it to work on a stable release after over a year
[18:25] <pitti> and it's not a major bug at all
[18:25] <kees> seems fine; did this come to TB because it's a feature change? did it get kicked back from the SRU team?
[18:25] <cjwatson> the LP team specifically asked for it, IIRC
[18:25] <mdz> I had no idea it was broken
[18:26] <cjwatson> originally they asked foundations; somebody (mvo?) looked at it and determined it was less easy than initially expected, and moved on to other things
[18:26] <mdz> kees, there's no indication in the bug that it was rejected by the SRU team
[18:26] <cjwatson> now there's a patch
[18:26] <pitti> it was brought up with TB straight away
[18:26] <pitti> and it's not even (marked as) fixed in natty
[18:26] <kees> yeah, I think this should just go through the regular SRU process.
[18:26] <cjwatson> it was raised with the TB well after it was raised with foundations, iirc
[18:26] <mdz> https://code.launchpad.net/~iheino+ub/ubuntu/lucid/w3m/bug683337 has one "approve" and one "disapprove"
[18:26] <pitti> nor is u-sru subscribed
[18:26] <cjwatson> but yeah, I don't see why this should be going through the TB
[18:27] <Keybuk> indeed, this seems like a justification for an ordinary SRU
[18:27] <Keybuk> which can be done in the usual way
[18:27] <mdz> bounce to ubuntu-sru?
[18:28] <kees> yup
[18:29] <mdz> who should do that? the person who wrote the patch?
[18:29] <mdz> ah, yes, it's the patch author who sent it to t-b@
[18:30] <mdz> I'll respond on the list
[18:30] <kees> https://code.launchpad.net/~iheino+ub/ubuntu/maverick/w3m/bug683337/+merge/46417  <- last seems to say it was rejected for SRU?
[18:30] <mdz> oh?
[18:30] <kees> pitti: ari-tczew mentions you in his rejected review
[18:31] <pitti> ah, I guess we talked about it on IRC a while back then
[18:31] <mdz> "I have debated with Martin Pitt about your patch and unfortunately, it can't be approved. It's small new feature, no bug-fix. This is way through backports."
[18:31] <mdz> comment dated 2011-01-30
[18:31] <ari-tczew> kees: yes?
[18:31] <mdz> pitti, are you ok with this going back to ubuntu-sru for consideration?
[18:31]  * pitti looks at the patch again -- it's quite large indeed
[18:31] <mdz> pitti, yes, it's non-trivial
[18:31] <cjwatson> perhaps somebody could ask the LP team whether they still feel this is important
[18:31] <pitti> mdz: we can, but looking at the patch again my opinion didn't really change
[18:31] <cjwatson> (I admit I'm going somewhat from memory, I can't remember who raised this with us)
[18:32] <pitti> large change, not really appropriate for SRU
[18:32] <mdz> but I don't agree with the "feature" designation
[18:32] <cjwatson> I can chase the original contact down in my mail folders and take that action if people want
[18:32] <mdz> LP has changed, login via w3m doesn't work, that's a bug
[18:32] <pitti> but I have no strong opinion about it
[18:32] <pitti> if someone can test it with a lot of web pages, so be it
[18:32] <pitti> problem is that we don't usually get this kind of comprehensive testing
[18:33] <mdz> [action] cjwatson to follow up on w3m SRU request for w3m from Tuomas Heino
[18:33] <MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to follow up on w3m SRU request for w3m from Tuomas Heino
[18:33] <mdz> happy for cjwatson to decide how to handle it from here
[18:33] <mdz> cjwatson, thanks
[18:33] <mdz> [topic] AOB v2.0
[18:33] <MootBot> New Topic:  AOB v2.0
[18:34] <mdz> if you like, we could debate the general principles of Ubuntu components which interface with web services
[18:34] <mdz> and the tradeoffs in trying to provide the best experience for users
[18:35] <mdz> possibly risky updates vs. broken compatibility with the web
[18:35] <mdz> there are a variety of other packages with this problem
[18:35] <mdz> youtube-dl is a recent example I came across
[18:35] <mdz> Ubuntu One we've discussed before
[18:35] <cjwatson> I seem to remember attempting to establish a principle that changing external circumstances can be a justification for updates
[18:35] <mdz> the number of such packages will only grow
[18:36] <cjwatson> possibly in the context of Landscape, from what I remember
[18:36] <pitti> mdz: it wasn't pointed out as a regression; if it is, then that would be appropriate indeed
[18:36] <cjwatson> i.e. the server has changed, if we don't change the client then it's to all intents and purposes a regression and we should fix it
[18:36] <cjwatson> (we can deprecate such behaviour all we like, but don't always have power to do much about it)
[18:36] <mdz> pitti, hmm, you're right, it doesn't say. but I'm pretty sure it has worked in the past
[18:36] <mdz> I've certainly logged into LP with w3m before
[18:37] <cjwatson> however, I'm being called for dinner and have to leave, I'm afraid - since I'd forgotten about this meeting while on holiday, I didn't warn Kirsten about it
[18:37] <mdz> cjwatson, I feel the same, though I didn't recall us having set a precedent
[18:37] <mdz> ok, later cjwatson
[18:38]  * cjwatson finds it
[18:38] <mdz> does anyone have a feeling about whether this is something we should discuss further, either now or at the next meeting?
[18:38] <cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates#Special%20Cases links to:
[18:38] <cjwatson> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2009-March/000550.html
[18:38] <cjwatson> which was explicitly phrased as precedent
[18:38] <mdz> cjwatson, good memory
[18:38] <mdz> "As such, the Technical Board '''approves''' the proposed policy [1],
[18:38] <mdz> with specific cases at the discretion of the ubuntu-sru team."
[18:39] <pitti> right, no objection if it's a regression
[18:39] <mdz> ok
[18:39] <mdz> nothing more to discuss then
[18:39] <cjwatson> anyway, got to run
[18:39] <mdz> wrap up?
[18:40] <mdz> ok, thanks all
[18:40] <mdz> #endmeeting
[18:40] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:40.
[18:40] <kees> thanks mdz
[18:40] <pitti> thanks all
[18:40] <kees> Keybuk: can you chair next meeting?
[18:40] <Keybuk> just checking calendar, but I think so
[18:40] <Keybuk> yup
[18:40] <kees> cool
[19:00]  * charlie-tca waves at everyone
[19:00]  * pleia2 waves
[19:01] <charlie-tca> Let's get this ball rolling
[19:01] <charlie-tca> #startmeeting
[19:01] <MootBot> Meeting started at 13:01. The chair is charlie-tca.
[19:01] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[19:02] <charlie-tca> This is the Xubuntu Community Meeting. The full agenda can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
[19:02] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Old business
[19:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Old business
[19:02] <charlie-tca> we have several items to go through, the first being
[19:03] <charlie-tca> Xubuntu marketing plans
[19:03] <knome> marketing plans: most pending on the new WP site, and we're still waiting for access to staging.xubuntu.org
[19:03] <knome> xubuntu blog is now aggregated to planet ubuntu.
[19:03] <charlie-tca> Thank you, knome
[19:03] <charlie-tca> Can we close this one now?
[19:03] <knome> afaik, there is no other progress. am i right, pleia2?
[19:03] <pleia2> and ochosi's artwork post hit the planet yesterday, yay :)
[19:03] <pleia2> that's it
[19:04] <knome> let's close it for now, we can reopen it once we get progress with WP
[19:04] <charlie-tca> Thank you
[19:04] <charlie-tca> next we have - ochosi and knome will put together some logo designs to be discussed as the menu icon
[19:04] <knome> wp meaning wordpress, not wallpaper ;)
[19:04] <charlie-tca> This is closed
[19:04] <knome> yeah, it's pretty much not possible...
[19:04] <charlie-tca> There's a problem with how the new panel handles the menu-icon. ochosi filed a bug about it upstream since the new app-menu button is always scaled down to square size. There's not much room for improvement over the current icon.
[19:04] <knome> http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/panel-menu-icon-2.png is the latest draft, though
[19:04] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/panel-menu-icon-2.png is the latest draft, though
[19:05] <charlie-tca> We keep trying, at least
[19:05] <knome> yep.
[19:05] <knome> we're investigating.
[19:05] <charlie-tca> This is website, I think - ask knome to do some drafts with a grey background and a black background
[19:05] <knome> umm, just a sec
[19:06] <knome> i'm sure i did one, but that's not online for some reason
[19:06] <charlie-tca> okay, I will carry it forward
[19:06] <knome> yup, i'll continue working with that with pleia2
[19:06] <charlie-tca> There is also the tele-conference for marketing, any status?
[19:06] <knome> still moving forward, probably post-natty
[19:07] <charlie-tca> and then we have - put workspace switcher back in the current configuration for natty
[19:07] <knome> so we can close that as well
[19:07] <charlie-tca> and this is done
[19:07] <charlie-tca> that takes of old business, next
[19:07] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Team updates
[19:07] <MootBot> New Topic:  Team updates
[19:07] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Artwork
[19:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  Artwork
[19:08] <charlie-tca> greybird is now fixed to theme gdm.
[19:08] <knome> (yay)
[19:08] <charlie-tca> ochosi improved the xfce4-notification style so that it's more contrasty and easier to see
[19:08] <charlie-tca> There has been a new release of the elementary icons upstream as promised and that includes quite a few fixes for us
[19:09] <charlie-tca> and we will be choosing a wallpaper
[19:09] <knome> *a default wallpaper
[19:09] <charlie-tca> We have many excellent submissions at http://www.flickr.com/groups/uawt-7/pool/
[19:09] <charlie-tca> I propose picking the top 5 to add to backgrounds, with the best one used as default for natty
[19:10] <knome> how are we going to vote?
[19:10] <charlie-tca> I don't know the best way to do this, but I would ask for each persons top two picks
[19:10] <charlie-tca> Only community members present are going to vote
[19:11] <knome> what counts as a community member?
[19:11] <charlie-tca> who is here for the meeting?
[19:11] <knome> o/
[19:11] <pleia2> o/
[19:11] <charlie-tca> o/
[19:11] <micahg> o/
[19:11] <Sysi> o/ here community member or not
[19:11] <charlie-tca> [link] http://www.flickr.com/photos/57470087@N03/5297409903/in/pool-uawt-7
[19:11] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/57470087@N03/5297409903/in/pool-uawt-7
[19:12] <charlie-tca> [link] http://www.flickr.com/photos/leogg/5247055287/in/pool-uawt-7
[19:12] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/leogg/5247055287/in/pool-uawt-7
[19:12] <charlie-tca> first two to consider
[19:12] <charlie-tca> I show 5 people, that is only ten to narrow down
[19:12] <charlie-tca> knome: picks?
[19:13] <knome> i'm lamely going to propose the two of my own.
[19:13] <charlie-tca> by all means
[19:13] <knome> http://www.flickr.com/photos/emunkki/5515540418/in/pool-uawt-7#/photos/emunkki/5515540418/in/pool-1546142@N20/ (#1)
[19:13] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/emunkki/5515540418/in/pool-uawt-7#/photos/emunkki/5515540418/in/pool-1546142@N20/ (#1)
[19:13] <knome> http://www.flickr.com/photos/emunkki/5515380336/in/pool-uawt-7#/photos/emunkki/5515380336/in/pool-1546142@N20/ (#2)
[19:13] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/emunkki/5515380336/in/pool-uawt-7#/photos/emunkki/5515380336/in/pool-1546142@N20/ (#2)
[19:14] <charlie-tca> Okay, that is the two emunkki drafts, the man with umbrella, and the glider with yellow
[19:14] <charlie-tca> pleia2: yours?
[19:14] <pleia2> http://www.flickr.com/photos/pr09studio/5277600138/in/pool-1546142@N20/
[19:14] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/pr09studio/5277600138/in/pool-1546142@N20/
[19:14] <pleia2> http://www.flickr.com/photos/leogg/5247055287/in/pool-1546142@N20/
[19:14] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/leogg/5247055287/in/pool-1546142@N20/
[19:15] <knome> micahg, Sysi ?
[19:16] <micahg> http://www.flickr.com/photos/leogg/5224255554/in/pool-1546142@N20/
[19:16] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/leogg/5224255554/in/pool-1546142@N20/
[19:16] <micahg> http://www.flickr.com/photos/tylana/5343925114/in/pool-1546142@N20/
[19:16] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/tylana/5343925114/in/pool-1546142@N20/
[19:16] <Sysi> should i give links if i'm not gonna pick new ones?
[19:16] <knome> Sysi, not necessarily :)
[19:17] <Sysi> knome's #1 (newer) or the umbrella guy
[19:17] <charlie-tca> Okay, now we got the top 8
[19:18] <knome> i'm dropping my #2 off the list, so we have 7
[19:18] <charlie-tca> anybody got an idea how to pick the best now?
[19:18] <Sysi> btw, has ubuntu wallpaper been decided/published?
[19:18] <charlie-tca> hm, vote on each one, with the one receiving the highest votes goes as default?
[19:19] <knome> sure.
[19:19] <charlie-tca> Ubuntu will probably use what they have already, the color splash thing
[19:19] <knome> one vote per person?
[19:19] <charlie-tca> yes
[19:19] <knome> yup.
[19:19] <beardygnome> hi guys, just got here, what are we voting on?
[19:19] <charlie-tca> and only those present vote
[19:19] <charlie-tca> wallpaper!
[19:20] <beardygnome> can i get a link?
[19:20] <charlie-tca> yup
[19:20] <charlie-tca> http://www.flickr.com/groups/uawt-7/pool/
[19:20] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.flickr.com/groups/uawt-7/pool/
[19:21] <beardygnome> thnaks
[19:22] <charlie-tca> We picked out 7 to vote on, and will do this one at a time. The wallpaper getting the most votes goes as default, so if it is not your favorite, either obstain or vote -1. We are counting the +1 votes, not what the bot decides
[19:22] <knome> i'd say better to vote -1
[19:22] <charlie-tca> [VOTE] first wallpaper to vote on - http://www.flickr.com/photos/57470087@N03/5297409903/in/pool-uawt-7
[19:22] <MootBot> Please vote on:  first wallpaper to vote on - http://www.flickr.com/photos/57470087@N03/5297409903/in/pool-uawt-7.
[19:22] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[19:22] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[19:22] <knome> -1
[19:22] <MootBot> -1 received from knome. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
[19:22] <micahg> charlie-tca: how many times can we vote?
[19:22] <knome> micahg, one.
[19:22] <knome> micahg, one plus.
[19:23] <knome> micahg, minus votes do not count :)
[19:23] <beardygnome> once per wallpaper, right?
[19:23] <charlie-tca> heh, many as you want for each one
[19:23] <charlie-tca> one vote, one wallpaper, I mean
[19:23] <beardygnome> -1
[19:23] <MootBot> -1 received from beardygnome. 0 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -2
[19:23] <knome> right, so one has more than one vote?
[19:23] <charlie-tca> One has one vote to use for each design, yes
[19:23] <knome> (eg. you could +1 all the images?)
[19:23] <knome> okay.
[19:24] <charlie-tca> yes, you could, it would count the same as not voting, wouldn't it?
[19:24] <knome> charlie-tca, yes and no ;)
[19:24] <charlie-tca> 0
[19:24] <micahg> -1
[19:24] <MootBot> -1 received from micahg. 0 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -3
[19:24] <charlie-tca> +0
[19:24] <MootBot> Abstention received from charlie-tca. 0 for, 3 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -3
[19:25] <charlie-tca> Okay, that one fails
[19:25] <charlie-tca> [ENDVOTE]
[19:25] <MootBot> Final result is 0 for, 3 against. 1 abstained. Total: -3
[19:25] <charlie-tca> [VOTE] next wallpaper - http://www.flickr.com/photos/leogg/5247055287/in/pool-uawt-7
[19:25] <MootBot> Please vote on:  next wallpaper - http://www.flickr.com/photos/leogg/5247055287/in/pool-uawt-7.
[19:25] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[19:25] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[19:25] <charlie-tca> +1
[19:25] <MootBot> +1 received from charlie-tca. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[19:25] <knome> -1
[19:25] <MootBot> -1 received from knome. 1 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
[19:25] <beardygnome> +1
[19:25] <MootBot> +1 received from beardygnome. 2 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[19:26] <micahg> -1
[19:26] <MootBot> -1 received from micahg. 2 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
[19:26] <charlie-tca> I just realized, beardygnome is disadvantages, he did not know which ones are up
[19:26] <Sysi> it doesn't matter on this kind of vote?
[19:26] <knome> charlie-tca, he still votes + or - for each.
[19:26] <charlie-tca> okay
[19:26] <pleia2> +1
[19:26] <MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 3 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[19:27] <beardygnome> yeah, i'm happy
[19:27] <charlie-tca> Okay, that is three on this one
[19:27] <Sysi> -1
[19:27] <MootBot> -1 received from Sysi. 3 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
[19:27] <charlie-tca> [ENDVOTE]
[19:27] <MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 3 against. 0 abstained. Total: 0
[19:28] <charlie-tca> knome: greens or blues on yours?
[19:28] <knome> the more blue
[19:28] <knome> http://www.flickr.com/photos/emunkki/5515540418/in/pool-uawt-7#/photos/emunkki/5515540418/in/pool-1546142@N20/
[19:28] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/emunkki/5515540418/in/pool-uawt-7#/photos/emunkki/5515540418/in/pool-1546142@N20/
[19:28] <charlie-tca> [VOTE] http://www.flickr.com/photos/emunkki/5515540418/in/pool-uawt-7#/photos/emunkki/5515540418/in/pool-1546142@N20/
[19:28] <MootBot> Please vote on:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/emunkki/5515540418/in/pool-uawt-7#/photos/emunkki/5515540418/in/pool-1546142@N20/.
[19:28] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[19:28] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[19:28] <knome> +1
[19:28] <MootBot> +1 received from knome. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[19:28] <micahg> +1, but I suspect people will complain of eye strain :)
[19:29] <beardygnome> -1
[19:29] <MootBot> -1 received from beardygnome. 1 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
[19:29] <charlie-tca> +0
[19:29] <MootBot> Abstention received from charlie-tca. 1 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
[19:29] <knome> MootBot, err, that didn't count yet :)
[19:29] <knome> err, micahg
[19:29] <charlie-tca> count is 1
[19:29] <knome> micahg said +1, but mootbot didn't register
[19:29] <micahg> +1
[19:29] <MootBot> +1 received from micahg. 2 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
[19:29] <knome> :)
[19:29] <Sysi> +1
[19:29] <MootBot> +1 received from Sysi. 3 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
[19:29] <charlie-tca> count is 3
[19:30] <knome> my wife is soon burning her sleeves since we are supposed to go home :P
[19:30] <Sysi> i's need to go to sauna..
[19:30] <charlie-tca> [ENDVOTE
[19:30] <charlie-tca> [ENDVOTE]
[19:30] <MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 1 against. 1 abstained. Total: 2
[19:31] <charlie-tca> [VOTE] http://www.flickr.com/photos/pr09studio/5277600138/in/pool-1546142@N20/
[19:31] <MootBot> Please vote on:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/pr09studio/5277600138/in/pool-1546142@N20/.
[19:31] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[19:31] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[19:31] <charlie-tca> -1
[19:31] <MootBot> -1 received from charlie-tca. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
[19:31] <beardygnome> -1
[19:31] <MootBot> -1 received from beardygnome. 0 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -2
[19:31] <knome> -1
[19:31] <pleia2> +1
[19:31] <MootBot> -1 received from knome. 0 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -3
[19:31] <MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 1 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -2
[19:32] <Sysi> -1
[19:32] <MootBot> -1 received from Sysi. 1 for, 4 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -3
[19:32] <charlie-tca> [ENDVOTE]
[19:32] <MootBot> Final result is 1 for, 4 against. 0 abstained. Total: -3
[19:32] <charlie-tca> count is one
[19:33]  * micahg would've +1 that
[19:33] <charlie-tca> then that is 2
[19:33] <knome> micahg, speed is ace. :P
[19:33] <micahg> sorry, E_TOOMANYTASKS
[19:33] <knome> :P
[19:33] <charlie-tca> [VOTE] http://www.flickr.com/photos/leogg/5247055287/in/pool-1546142@N20/
[19:33] <MootBot> Please vote on:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/leogg/5247055287/in/pool-1546142@N20/.
[19:33] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[19:33] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[19:34] <knome> again?
[19:34] <charlie-tca> mistake
[19:34] <knome> np ;)
[19:34] <charlie-tca> [ENDVOTE]
[19:34] <MootBot> Final result is 0 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 0
[19:35] <charlie-tca> [VOTE] http://www.flickr.com/photos/leogg/5224255554/in/pool-1546142@N20/
[19:35] <MootBot> Please vote on:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/leogg/5224255554/in/pool-1546142@N20/.
[19:35] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[19:35] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[19:35] <micahg> +1
[19:35] <MootBot> +1 received from micahg. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[19:35] <knome> -1
[19:35] <MootBot> -1 received from knome. 1 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
[19:35] <charlie-tca> -1
[19:35] <MootBot> -1 received from charlie-tca. 1 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
[19:35] <pleia2> -1
[19:35] <MootBot> -1 received from pleia2. 1 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -2
[19:35] <Sysi> -1
[19:35] <MootBot> -1 received from Sysi. 1 for, 4 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -3
[19:35] <beardygnome> +1
[19:35] <MootBot> +1 received from beardygnome. 2 for, 4 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -2
[19:35] <charlie-tca> [ENDVOTE]
[19:36] <MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 4 against. 0 abstained. Total: -2
[19:36] <charlie-tca> count is 2
[19:36] <charlie-tca> and the last one is
[19:36] <charlie-tca> [VOTE] http://www.flickr.com/photos/tylana/5343925114/in/pool-1546142@N20/
[19:36] <MootBot> Please vote on:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/tylana/5343925114/in/pool-1546142@N20/.
[19:36] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[19:36] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[19:36] <charlie-tca> =1
[19:36] <micahg> +1
[19:36] <MootBot> +1 received from micahg. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[19:36] <charlie-tca> +1
[19:36] <MootBot> +1 received from charlie-tca. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[19:36] <knome> -1
[19:36] <MootBot> -1 received from knome. 2 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[19:36] <pleia2> -1
[19:36] <MootBot> -1 received from pleia2. 2 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
[19:36] <beardygnome> 0
[19:37] <Sysi> +0
[19:37] <MootBot> Abstention received from Sysi. 2 for, 2 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
[19:37] <beardygnome> +0
[19:37] <MootBot> Abstention received from beardygnome. 2 for, 2 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 0
[19:37] <knome> (when did dolphins become the xubuntu mascot?? :))
[19:37] <charlie-tca> [ENDVOTE]
[19:37] <MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 2 against. 2 abstained. Total: 0
[19:37] <charlie-tca> Count is 2
[19:37] <pleia2> (yeah, if it was mice..!)
[19:37] <charlie-tca> the same time the umbrella did?
[19:37] <pleia2> or the birds
[19:38] <knome> we had two 3 votes
[19:38] <knome> and 3 two votes
[19:38] <knome> my suggestion: upload those to xubuntu now
[19:38] <micahg> so, we should revote the 2 3s
[19:38] <knome> then
[19:38] <charlie-tca> I don't think the animal is the mascot, but rather representation of the OS
[19:38] <knome> leave one week time for artists to finish off the design
[19:38] <knome> and revote about the default
[19:38] <pleia2> knome: +1
[19:38] <charlie-tca> Why didn't the artists finish in 4 months?
[19:39] <charlie-tca> but okay, I will grant a one week period.
[19:39] <knome> charlie-tca, because you said that after this meeting the artists would get last directions to finish off
[19:39] <charlie-tca> Ideas to pass to the man with umbrella to improve it?
[19:39] <knome> i already commented it on the flickr page
[19:39] <knome> there is some ideaqs
[19:39] <knome> -q
[19:40] <charlie-tca> Ideas to pass to the blue hues background to improve it?
[19:40] <knome> note to self: add something for the eye to look for, like some subtle rays or sth
[19:40] <Sysi> would it be better to test wallpapers as part of the theme?
[19:40] <knome> and rework on the colors with better monitor
[19:40] <beardygnome> i think it's a bit too plain
[19:40] <pleia2> Sysi: yea, I was just thinking that
[19:40] <knome> Sysi, of course.
[19:40] <charlie-tca> Yes, it would be better if you have the time to do that
[19:41] <knome> charlie-tca, there is this one week?
[19:41] <charlie-tca> yes, knome
[19:41] <knome> charlie-tca, considering the designs won't change too much (eg. i won't come up with a red wallpaper week later ;))
[19:41] <charlie-tca> I think some rays in the blue hues would be great, maybe even a sunspot/light in order to draw the viewers eye
[19:42] <knome> are we done with the wallpaper stuff for this week now?
[19:42] <charlie-tca> yup
[19:42] <knome> yup, i'll have to think about that.
[19:42] <Sysi> and then we get screenshot with rest of natty artwork?
[19:42] <knome> i did that image today
[19:42] <charlie-tca> I will tally everything and ask mr_pouit and ochosi to package the top 5 for us
[19:42] <knome> Sysi, thorwil did a "test wallpaper with theme" package
[19:42] <knome> Sysi, i can work on some shots with the theme and the five candidates
[19:43] <knome> charlie-tca, ^^
[19:43] <charlie-tca> and I saw him come in to the meeting. Is he still here?
[19:43] <thorwil> yes
[19:43] <knome> no idea. i have ignored joins/parts
[19:43] <charlie-tca> That would be great, knome
[19:43] <knome> thorwil, i'll use your tool, sir :P
[19:43] <charlie-tca> Welcome to our meeting, thorwil
[19:43] <thorwil> :)
[19:43] <knome> ...so, are we ready with the wallpapers...? :)
[19:43] <charlie-tca> Can you tell where to grab your tool for these
[19:43] <knome> i know
[19:43] <charlie-tca> yup, knome
[19:44] <charlie-tca> next week we vote on the best of two, right?
[19:44] <knome> or all five.
[19:44] <thorwil> five or two??
[19:44] <knome> best two is okay as well.
[19:44] <charlie-tca> Next week we vote on the best of two
[19:44] <knome> since they *did* get more votes than the rest
[19:44] <knome> okay, thanks
[19:44] <knome> i'll go calm down my wife
[19:45] <charlie-tca> Thank you
[19:45] <knome> have a good rest of the meeting
[19:45] <knome> no problem, see you later
[19:45] <Sysi> i'd need to get to the sauna.. i'll read the log
[19:45] <charlie-tca> thorwil: we are looking the blue hues and the man with umbrella for the default
[19:45] <Sysi> (if you're too fast)
[19:45] <charlie-tca> thanks, Sysi
[19:46] <thorwil> charlie-tca: oh well, i hardly see a competition there
[19:48] <thorwil> and i suspect you don't have to bother with any kind of art direction / specification for the release after next
[19:48] <charlie-tca> If only... but I will let the community decide, at least the ones that show up
[19:48] <charlie-tca> I think you are correct.
[19:49] <charlie-tca> But I will get the top 5 or so included this release in the backgrounds, at least.
[19:49] <thorwil> good
[19:50] <charlie-tca> We got some really nice designs this time. I thank you for all your help on it
[19:50] <charlie-tca> I guess we better get the packaging updates now, and get this meeting wound up
[19:51] <thorwil> charlie-tca: your welcome
[19:51] <charlie-tca> Your advice is greatly appreciated here.
[19:51] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Packaging & Development
[19:51] <MootBot> New Topic:  Packaging & Development
[19:52] <charlie-tca> The packaging/dev report, nothing much: uploaded new greybird, fixed a few default settings' issues, and blacklisted a few indicators in xfce4-indicator (e.g. indicator-appmenu, we don't want it)
[19:52] <charlie-tca> Also fixed a crash in xfce4-terminal, and patched xfce4-settings to solve the long standing bugs wrt sticky keys
[19:52] <charlie-tca> And accessibility gains again!
[19:53] <charlie-tca> That's all I have on Packaging and Development this week
[19:53] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Bug Triage & Testing
[19:53] <MootBot> New Topic:  Bug Triage & Testing
[19:53] <charlie-tca> no update this week
[19:53] <charlie-tca> any questions ?
[19:53] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Website & Marketing
[19:53] <MootBot> New Topic:  Website & Marketing
[19:54] <charlie-tca> any updates, pleia2 ?
[19:54] <pleia2> nothing beyond what we mentioned earlier in the meeting
[19:54] <charlie-tca> Thank you
[19:54] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Announcements
[19:54] <MootBot> New Topic:  Announcements
[19:55] <charlie-tca> We released Natty alpha3 last week, thanks to efforts of all involved!
[19:55] <charlie-tca> We have a fast moving release cycle now, with the beta1 coming out March 31
[19:56] <charlie-tca> Anyone wants to go to UDS-O needs to submit their application for sponsorship, please
[19:56] <charlie-tca> You do not have to be a developer to go
[19:56] <charlie-tca> any questions?
[19:56] <micahg> nah, beta is normally a month before release
[19:57] <charlie-tca> We have two betas and no rc this cycle
[19:57] <micahg> right, but beta 1 isn't any earlier than normal
[19:57] <charlie-tca> right
[19:57] <charlie-tca> I just meant we can't slow down now
[19:58] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Governance structure
[19:58] <MootBot> New Topic:  Governance structure
[19:58] <charlie-tca> I plan to put together a proposal to choose the new lead for xubuntu, most likely by community vote.
[19:59] <beardygnome> but we on;t just voted on you charlie-tca
[19:59] <beardygnome> *only
[19:59] <charlie-tca> This will have to be added to the Xubuntu Strategy Document, existing at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/StrategyDocument
[19:59] <charlie-tca> yes, beardygnome
[19:59] <charlie-tca> but there are no provisions in Xubuntu for how to pick a new lead
[20:00] <charlie-tca> We kind of stumbled our way through it
[20:00] <beardygnome> so you're proposing *how* we do it
[20:00] <beardygnome> not that we need to do it now?
[20:00] <charlie-tca> yup
[20:00] <charlie-tca> how to do it, correct
[20:01] <beardygnome> cool
[20:01] <charlie-tca> Please pass your suggestions for this to me, either by email, or on IRC in #xubuntu-devel
[20:01] <charlie-tca> Being the way I am, it bothers me a lot
[20:02] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Any Other Business
[20:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
[20:02] <charlie-tca> Anyone want to bring up anything?
[20:02] <micahg> o/
[20:02] <charlie-tca> Go ahead, micahg
[20:02] <micahg> is it worth still considering lightdm?
[20:03] <charlie-tca> I thought it was too buggy?
[20:03] <micahg> oh, hmm, haven't tried it yet, maybe I should testdrive it...
[20:03] <charlie-tca> To me, it is always worth considering anything besides GDM
[20:03] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit said it wouldn't work yet
[20:04] <charlie-tca> but I don't remember the why?
[20:04] <micahg> charlie-tca: ok, I trust him :)
[20:04] <charlie-tca> Me too
[20:04] <charlie-tca> that's why I dropped it
[20:04] <charlie-tca> Anything else?
[20:04] <micahg> getting a little late in the cycle, I just wanted to make sure it wasn't forgotten, ok, we can try for O :)
[20:05] <charlie-tca> We will have another meeting in one week, March 17 at 19:00 UTC
[20:05] <charlie-tca> We will pick a default wallpaper at that meeting.
[20:06] <charlie-tca> thank you all for being here and participating! Teamwork!
[20:06] <charlie-tca> #endmeeting
[20:06] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 14:06.
[20:08] <Sysi> almost!