snap-lI find it a little disturbing that there's three insane asylum hospital plans for Michigan02:12
Blazeixwhoa, I just accidentally found out you can resize the Awesome WM layouts using super+right_click.03:50
BlazeixI'd been wondering if there was a way to do that.03:51
wolfgerMorning, everybody12:49
wolfgerEven rick_h_ who is off enjoying Pycon :-p12:49
brouschwere you up all night hacking on pyramid?12:52
brouschwhoa, check this job out http://ow.ly/4coLG12:53
brouschphp, python, java, cassandra, $80k - $100k12:53
rick_h_brousch: heh no. Went out with Mark Ramm and some guys12:55
brouschso you were up all night talking about hacking on pyramid?12:56
rick_h_we had some django guys at dinner to we teamed up and crushed them12:57
brouschcrushed them?12:57
rick_h_yea, basically told them all the sucki-ness of django12:58
brouschdid they cry?12:58
rick_h_almost, we took it easy on them12:58
brouschso what is sucky besides the orm?12:59
rick_h_the lack of wsgi, the template layer, the hacks in the codebase itself that make it impossible to read/work on13:00
rick_h_and the community with their stupid irc peeps chasing me out of their channel :)13:00
brouschi'm sure you were trolling in there13:01
brouschoh man, my jaw is dropped and will not shut http://www.fcsuper.com/swblog/?p=266213:03
brouschfree cross-platform 2D CAD from Solidworks. we pay about $1000/seat/yr for autocad13:05
wolfgerGee... I wonder why they would chase rick_h_ out of their IRC channel with an attitude like that? :-p13:11
wolfgerI mean, it's kinda like going into #gnome to post pro-Unity comments... ;-)13:12
rick_h_naw, it's a long story13:12
rick_h_but this was a while ago13:12
rick_h_snap-l remembers it I'm sure13:13
wolfgerPS: I tried Xmonad last night, for a little bit. I like it for the most part....13:14
wolfgeronly thing I don't like is, the nm-applet has no place to live13:14
wolfgerso when I'm having wifi issues, I'm kinda lost13:14
rick_h_ah, in Awsome I have a tray still13:14
rick_h_so I run the nm-applet and my dropbox icon gets a home13:15
wolfgeris that default behavior on Awesome, or did you set it up to be that way?13:15
rick_h_yea, I think in xmonad you can run a tray app13:16
rick_h_yea, with traey13:17
wolfgerGood stuff. Thanks!13:18
_stink_does something like pypanel work in xmonad?13:18
_stink_at least that's what i used a couple of years ago in stumpwm.13:18
_stink_and it'll host gnome applets just fine.13:18
wolfgerI'll probably give Awesome, Stumpwm, and Ion all a try (based on a random web endorsement of Ion, and a curiosity about something I've never even heard of before)13:21
_stink_wolfger: when you get around to stumpwm, let me know.  also, the version in the repo is waay out of date, so grab it from git.13:27
wolfgerHeh. Somebody should file a bug to update stumpwm, then.13:31
wolfgerAnd then package it for Ubuntu.13:31
* wolfger looks at _stink_13:31
_stink_i've thought about it...13:34
snap-lYeah, I remember when rick_h_ was chased from Django13:48
snap-lbecause he asked about using nose for testing, iirc.13:48
rick_h_snap-l: it was funny because the django fan at dinner was like "we use a django-nose package for that"13:50
rick_h_and I was like "I KNOW! that came out as a great feature 6mo after I was asking for help with it"13:50
rick_h_but when I wanted to do it I was a moron, don't do it13:50
rick_h_6mo later it's a great django feature13:50
snap-lrick_h_: Yeah, NIH in action13:51
shortcircuitwolfger: There's something you said yesterday that I agreed with, but I don't remember exactly what it was.14:02
shortcircuitSomething about mice and keyboard.14:02
=== jjesse_ is now known as jjesse
wolfgershortcircuit: Wow, somebody agreed with something I said?14:13
wolfgerI roughly said, the mouse is garbage for productivity use, but essential for leisure use14:14
wolfgerIf I'm working on something on my computer, I shouldn't ever have to touch the mouse, but when I'm just chillin'/surfing/being social, I should be able to do everything with one hand.14:15
wolfger...and I want a WM that suits both those needs. There doesn't seem to be one. They all go to one extreme or the other.14:16
jjessei use an external mouse the same way on my laptop, 90% of the time i use the laptop's mouse but when i need to get somethng done i use the external mouse, hate lifting my hand from the keyboard14:16
brouschshortcircuit is a friend of mine from over here on the west side. he runs the weekly grlug social meetings and is one of you oddball window manager guys14:16
shortcircuitwolfger: the 'awesome' wm seems to work reasonably well for me.14:18
shortcircuitIf I hold the Windows key down, I can drag windows around to the tiles I want them in. Otherwise, I use keyboard shortcuts.14:19
greg-gshortcircuit: welcome to the channel14:19
shortcircuitWell, actually, I only just discovered the drag-to-tiles a minute ago. I didn't realize it worked in the tiling modes.14:19
shortcircuitDisclaimer: I'm not a real fan of Ubuntu; I tend to be among the edge case users whose apps and preferences don't work well.14:20
wolfgerHey, since greg-g started logging this room, we could find exactly what I said. :-)14:20
wolfgerI'm pretty sure I said it better yesterday. Today I'm kinda busy at work :-p14:20
shortcircuit(Which is the primary reason I'm interested in helping the testing on the east side of the state)14:21
shortcircuitI'm in here because brousch told me there were some folks in here who like tiling window managers. :)14:21
jjessewe are not all ubuntu talk all the time14:21
brouschshortcircuit: if you wander back to about 8:14 this morning you can see the tiling talk14:23
binbrainquiet here this morning, everybody but me must be at pycon15:00
brouschit was noisy until 9:2515:02
jjessewe come and go15:02
jjessebased on werk15:02
snap-lor shoveling.15:11
greg-gsnap-l: http://www.ntchosting.com/apache-server-linux.html15:21
greg-gthey say they use debian15:21
snap-lYeah, but scripts? Never.15:22
greg-gyeah, they say things like "popular PHP scripts available" when talking about mediawiki/wordpress/etc15:22
greg-git is a common word to use for "apps" in some other parts of the world15:22
snap-lWell, PHP is just a script on steroids15:23
greg-gvery true15:23
greg-gbtw, why did I feel the need to research that?15:23
greg-ganyways... goes to a meeting15:23
brouschbad steroids, tainted with gonorrhea15:24
snap-lRead the bottom of this15:40
jrwrenphp is a script on steroids???15:53
jrwrenperl is a sript.15:53
jrwrenpython is a script.15:53
jrwrenjava is a script on steroids.15:53
jrwrenC# and all .net languages is a script on steroids.15:54
snap-lJava is not a script, nor is C#15:54
jrwrenhow so?15:54
snap-lIt just has a target machine that is not physical15:54
jrwrenmy C# is.15:54
snap-lIsn't C# compiled?15:54
jrwrenso does PHP and Python15:54
snap-lAh, I see what you're thinking. :)15:54
jrwrenhttp://lmgtfy.com/?q=python+bytecode    ;)15:55
snap-lYeah, scripts are a poorly-used term15:55
snap-lI've defined them as something that doesn't require a separate compile step prior to running (me personally, not the computer)15:56
jrwrenpoor definition.15:56
wolfgerjrwren: perl is sed/awk on steroids (or so I've been told)15:56
jrwreni like hte dictionary best.15:56
jrwrenwolfger: you don't know sed/awk?15:57
jrwrenhttp://lmgtfy.com/?q=define%3Ascript  :015:57
snap-ljrwren: Generally speaking, if I need sed / awk, I run to perl15:57
snap-lthere's a few simple one-liners where I prefer sed / awk15:57
jrwreni used too, but I don't anymore.15:57
snap-lbut once it grows beyond that, Perl is my poison15:57
jrwrendefinitely love perl.15:58
wolfgerjrwren: I know them. We're not BFF's or next door neighbors, though.15:58
jrwrenthinking about awk and bash in debian/ubuntu just makes me angry.15:58
jrwren/dev/tcp in one and not the other is stupid.15:59
jrwrenproof that debianistas are stupid15:59
snap-lOK, how about General Purpose Dynamic Languages. ;)15:59
jrwrenlike C#?16:00
snap-land PHP... ;)16:00
* snap-l needs to play more with C#16:00
snap-lnot that I really think it's the bee's knees, but it looks like where Java could have gone had they not thrown everything on top of it.16:01
snap-land then sat on it, wondering why it wasn't going anywhere.16:01
jrwren"they" is hte problem with java.16:01
jrwrenif brian had just kept it, it might have lived.16:01
snap-lWell, had it not become the silver bullet dujour16:02
jrwrenerr James rather.16:02
jrwrenbut maybe James could have given it to brian :)16:03
jrwreni wonder if perl would move somewhere if larry gave it away16:04
snap-lWell, if Brian was in marketing, they shouldn't have given it to him16:04
jrwrenBrian Goetz?16:04
snap-lNo, I mean Brian in Marketing16:04
snap-l(small attempt at humor)16:05
wolfgerIt's not a question of whether or not Brian has it, it's a question of whether the followers of Brian's gourd or the followers of Brian's shoe are correct. That's a nasty battle you don't want any part of.16:05
jrwrenno, I think I do.16:06
jrwrenits a battle that has been a non issue for Linus, Larry and Guido16:06
jrwrenbut in Java the players said "this could be a battle" and threw down their weapons and went home and hugged and said, "lets drink together and not be productive at all."16:07
wolfgerand snap-l: wtf with that tech support snapshot?16:07
snap-lJava is what happens when you have a company try very hard to not let anyone else have fun with it's toys.16:08
snap-lwolfger: nfc. That was on reddit.16:08
snap-lBut it's a really stupid answer, regardless.16:08
wolfger...and Perl is what happens when you don't lay down any hard rules about how people can play with the toys.16:10
wolfgerand it's great fun.16:10
wolfgerjust a little messy16:10
jrwreni don't think so.16:10
jrwrenperl is what happens when you go home.16:11
jrwrenperl hasn't changed significantly in 10 yrs.16:11
jrwrenI was alluding to language changes.16:11
wolfgerdoes it need to change?16:11
jrwrennothing NEEDS to change :)16:11
jrwrenbut it should would be nice to be more efficient16:12
jrwrento get more done with less16:12
wolfgerdepends on your definitions of more and less16:12
wolfgerI'd say Perl already lets us do more with less16:12
wolfgercompared to any other language I've experienced16:12
wolfgerthere's other languages that do more16:13
wolfgerbut certainly not with less16:13
jrwrenI can't agree with that.16:13
wolfgerI think the essential ingredients are missing from your statement. More *of what* with less *of what*16:14
wolfgerMore manipulation of text files with less lines of code? Be hard to improve over Perl 5.16:15
wolfgerMore maintenance of old code with less headaches? OK, Perl's majorly hurting on that one... :-p16:16
greg-gwow, my old boss is getting into the retweeting of info about the gnome/canonical craziness, retweeting this link: http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2011/03/collaborations-demise.html?showComment=1299807005600#c241738130153075135416:20
greg-gI just find it interesting that he (@rejon) is doing that, he normally doesn't too much16:20
greg-gthough, that is a pretty damning comment16:21
wolfgerGerman word of the day: schwanger16:23
wolfgermeans "pregnant"16:24
wolfgerand somehow I knew a word like schwanger had do have something to do with sex...16:25
_stink_"Es tut mir leid, aber ich habe deinen Schwester schwanger."16:26
jrwrenmore of everything with less lines of code.16:35
snap-lrick_h_: How much was the printed version of the Pyramid guide?16:42
snap-lSomehow I have a feeling that Segphault is going to get his wish for a commercial company to spearhead the Linux Desktop17:33
snap-lafter seeing the rift between GNOME and Ubuntu, I can see a fork coming in the near future.17:33
wolfgerand soon we'll have Gbuntu....17:34
wolfgersounds like what you say to somebody who sneezed.... *achoo*; "Gbuntu".17:46
rick_h_snap-l: $70 :/18:33
snap-lHoly shit, that's expensive.18:33
brouschgeez, is it printed by Steve Jobs himself?18:34
snap-lGod, my VPN is running sllllllloooooooowwwwwwwwww18:35
brouschhey, He has a lot of things to worry about right now. your VPN is low on His list18:36
snap-lgod is not an iphone. I think he can multitask. ;)18:37
snap-l> Any idea of how much it will be?18:38
snap-lNot entirely sure, but somewhere between $40-$50 likely (up to the18:38
snap-lbookseller himself).18:38
snap-lThat's a little much for a book, I'm afraid18:38
rick_h_snap-l: yea18:38
rick_h_well there's a bookstore here selling them18:38
rick_h_so I think that bookstore cranked it18:39
snap-lThat's what I mean18:39
rick_h_I think you can order them from the self-publish site probably for less18:39
rick_h_I really shouldn't have bought it18:39
snap-l> Any idea of how much it will be?18:39
snap-lNot entirely sure, but somewhere between $40-$50 likely (up to the18:39
snap-lbookseller himself).18:39
rick_h_the weight of this giant volume will set me over the backage weight limit18:39
snap-lBah, sorry about that18:39
brouschrick_h_: mail it to yourself mediamail18:40
brouschcost like $318:40
snap-lbrousch: ++18:40
snap-lor even a oriority mail medium flat rate18:41
snap-lshouldn't be more than $6.18:41
wolfgerwhat book are we talking about?18:50
brouschwow, some of these photos are unbelievable http://news.nationalpost.com/photo_gallery/photos-massive-quake-unleashes-tsunami-on-japan/18:51
wolfgeraren't they?18:51
wolfgerentire buildings, on fire, floating out to sea18:51
wolfgera massive whirlpool18:52
wolfgera massive column of fire18:52
brouschdon't piss off poseidon18:53
brouschouch, a smackdown frm miguel de icaza: "notes that proprietary systems have advantages — such as video and audio systems that rarely break. 'I spent so many years battling with Linux and something new is broken every time,' he says. 'We as an open source community, we don't seem to get our act together when it comes to understanding the needs of end users on the desktop.'"18:59
wolfgerWe're a bunch of itch-scratchers19:02
wolfgerif a bug doesn't affect a dev directly, good luck convincing him to work on it.19:02
jjessedidn't rick_h_ say something like that earlier this week?19:03
wolfgerespecially when it comes to hardware driver issues... volunteer coders aren't going to go buy your laptop just to duplicate your problem and fix it.19:03
wolfgeron the flip side, considering what a ragtag bunch we really are, it's damned impressive that Linux works as well as it does.19:04
wolfgerNow how much of that is due to the contributions of companies like Canonical, Google, IBM, etc who have paid devs to work on things? No clue.19:05
snap-lThere's definitely a lot of direction-making in those companies19:05
snap-lfor good or ill19:05
MilyardoI wouldn't call any direction in a project ill, just sub-optimal19:08
Milyardoas no direction is always worst than a sub-optimal one19:08
snap-lI'd argue that bad directions are worse than no directions19:09
snap-lat least you can pull out of a non-direction.19:09
snap-lbut that said, not everyone would agree on the right direction19:10
wolfgerHey, that channel-logging is good stuff. Time to fire up the Perl and do evil. }:-)19:12
snap-lAnyone have a need for any Nokia chargers?19:16
snap-lI have the one that fits the N700, and two cellphone chargers (slow)19:16
snap-lone is an in-car charger19:16
snap-lI'll pay shipping to the lower 4819:17
snap-lJust want them out of the house. ;)19:17
jrwrenthe flip side to that is often our itches do align with regular people and not with corporate interests.  cameras working OOTB on ubuntu but needing drivers to work on windows comes to mind.19:26
jrwrennot to mention the sea of hardware that still works with linux but can't work with Windows7 because they were XP devices and vendors never made newer drivers.19:27
jrwrenor the other way around where people still run XP but can't find drivers.19:27
jrwrenso there is good and bad.19:27
snap-lYeah, that's very true19:33
rick_h_ugh, of course work crap breaks while I'm afk at a conference20:05
snap-lrick_h_: Never fails20:07
* snap-l is ownloading .net microframework to check something for a customer.20:07
rick_h_so sitting in my room fixing crap20:07
rick_h_wooo! you win!20:07
snap-lyeah, especially since it needs VS to run20:10
brouschgood luck with that monstrous download and install20:11
snap-lInstalling the C# portion just for grins20:11
snap-lWe'll see how far it goes20:11
snap-lApparently my bitching karma is coming around to slap me. :)20:12
snap-lbitching karma: bitch about something long enough, and it becomes part of my job. :)20:12
Blazeixheh, fwiw, I like VS2010 better than eclipse.20:12
snap-lie: bitch about java, and eventually I'll be installing Netbeans20:12
BlazeixAs long as you stay away from the whole "integrated everything" stack and just code.20:12
snap-lI'm just looking to consume a wsdl to see what the error someone is getting20:13
snap-land see if they're doing something wonky.20:13
snap-lno  development for me20:13
Blazeixuhoh, consuming wsdl is the start of the integrated everything route20:14
snap-lyeah, figures. :)20:14
* snap-l wishes he had a VM for Windows20:14
Blazeixyou were complaining a while back about VB, right? Be careful.20:15
snap-lI will quit20:15
snap-lalso, thank you for reminding karma of that20:15
snap-lI hope you have a couch that I can sleep on20:15
snap-land of course, I'm over at my parents while JoDee does laundry, using up their 1.5Mbps DSL20:16
MilyardoI think its time I upgraded from my Dream soon, but I'm not sure what I should get20:27
MilyardoI was thinking maybe the Nexus S?20:27
MilyardoNot sure whats the best Android phone on the market at the moment20:28
Blazeixwhen I was browsing android phones I liked phandroid.com20:29
MilyardoOr even the better custom ROMs either, Dream development has really slowed down20:29
BlazeixI've been running the cyanogenmod 7 nightlies for a while. I highly recommend it.20:34
MilyardoFor the Dream?20:34
MilyardoI didn't think cyanogen did dream nightlys anymore20:34
Blazeixhm, looks like it isn't available for the dream :(20:34
brouschi really need to try CM20:36
snap-lOnly Microsoft would require you to restart your machine to install a fucking IDE.20:39
snap-lFuck me for being productive.20:40
brouschif you're lucky you'll only need 1 reboot20:40
snap-lnot helping. :)20:40
jjessedont forget all the updates20:41
snap-lHey, lookie thar... http://j.mp/eTicd420:41
snap-lTwitter doesn't care about app people.20:42
MilyardoTranslations:Advertisers on our network don't like it when they aren't seen in trending streams on 3rd party clients, so we're going to display all that suff for you!20:46
snap-lWell, when your favorite android app breaks because Twitter says it should say "favorite" instead of "like", just remember that identi.ca don't care. ;)20:48
jcastroright, instead you'd get flamed for using seesmic because it isn't floss20:52
snap-ljcastro: and you can't say "fuck 'em?"21:08
greg-gsilently ignore21:09
snap-lthat's what the block button is for21:09
snap-lkeeps the fucknuts at bay.21:09
brouschbut i can follow you and greg-g on twitter. all the rest are fucknuts, so who needs identica?21:10
greg-gthere are a few people on identi.ca who aren't on twitter that I wish to follow, friends and other foss geeks that aren't fucknuts21:13
snap-lyeah, same here21:15
snap-land I care about openness on the platform21:15
snap-l1. If you make a Twitter client, you have a bit of time to get out of that business. If you were thinking about writing one, don't.21:16
snap-ljcastro: Are you going to see Rush next month?21:19
snap-ljrwren: You're a better man than I, because I can't figure this shit out21:23
snap-lwhat to download, etc.21:23
brouschsnap-l: it's almost as bad as eclipse21:24
brouschthen the fact that you're using windows and microsoft software makes it worse21:25
snap-lthat's damning21:25
snap-lbrillant... I can't get a copy of Visual Studio 2008 Express.21:29
snap-lIt's only 2010, and the micro framework SDK that I downloaded only works with 2008-2010, or 2008 express.21:30
greg-ghttp://evan.status.net/conversation/717972  "I bet if we cut this goose open we can get all the gold out without having to wait for each egg!"21:34
greg-gbtw, THAT LINK is why I love statusnet and will stay with it. Do you see what is happening there? StatusNet is forcing twitter to have conversation view. Ingenious. Pretty. Needed.21:35
greg-gnow, we'll see if it can still do this in 6 months, but for now it is the best thing since sliced bread21:35
snap-lgreg-g: Yep, that's a lifesaver, especially when someone you respect says something like "@person: Yep, I couldn't agree more!"21:43
snap-lCouldn't agree more on what?21:43
snap-lglobal warming? OSS use in education? Sarah Palin is an escaped insane asulum patient?21:44
snap-ltimmy fell down a well?21:45
snap-lwhat, boy, speak!21:45
rick_h_snap-l: getting our podcast some love21:46
snap-lrick_h_: Awesome. What do I have to edit? :)21:46
rick_h_Amber is down here, chat with her for a bit and she got us another interview person21:46
rick_h_nothing yet, will see about my nightly tonight, but looks like joint recording stuff will be sunday21:46
rick_h_with the FPIP guys21:46
rick_h_and then after that will be sprint stuff21:46
snap-lAwesome... Ididn't know that the First phillipine industrial park was using python21:47
rick_h_we also chat about getting some linkage on some of the stuff she's working on21:47
snap-l(and no, I didn't know what you meant until about the 4th link)21:47
brouschhootsuite gives twitter conversation view ;)21:51
rick_h_greg-g: ping22:08
rick_h_who was the openstack community guy you were checking the newsletter for?22:08
greg-grick_h_: well, I was doing it out of my own interest, but the guy who mans @openstack_com_manger or some such crappy twitter name22:09
rick_h_ok, I think I'm sitting with him at an openspace bof for openstack22:09
rick_h_you ever send that feedback in? Or I'll just not bring it up22:09
greg-gStephen Spector22:10
greg-gI didn't bring it up with him22:10
rick_h_k, just checking22:10
greg-gbut feel free to (but mention my name, please, I'm trying to get some connections there)22:10
* greg-g goes home22:14
rick_h_greg-g: ping23:13
rick_h_Tiling BoF at 8pm woo!23:59

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