[06:25] hey, can someone take a look at https://code.launchpad.net/~kklimonda/evolution-data-server/ubuntu/+merge/53196 when you have a moment? It's a cosmetic change, not really worth its own upload (hence I haven't subscribed ubuntu-sponsors) but It's still worth updating when someone makes a new upload. [07:27] Good morning [07:43] Hey pitti. [07:43] hey TheMuso, had a nice weekend? [07:43] pitti: Very nice indeed thanks, although was still warm here. Its a bit cooler today however. [07:44] spring has just begun here, I for one am happy that it's finally not freezing any more :) [07:44] I'm somewhat the other way. Looking forward to a bit of cooler weather. [07:45] Which of course will change com the end of winter, or sooner. [08:03] good morning [08:15] bonjour didrocks! [08:15] Guten Morgen pitti :) [08:20] morning [08:24] hey rodrigo_ [08:25] hi didrocks [08:27] will the gnome3 ppa be getting a rebuild soon for 2.91.91? [08:28] Morning all [08:28] jbicha, yes, I've been on vacation last week, so didn't do any update, but will get it up-to-date in the next few days [08:29] rodrigo_: thanks, I was just curious [09:04] good morning everyone [09:07] hey chrisccoulson [09:07] hi pitti, how are you? [09:08] I'm great, thanks! Had a Taekwondo camp yesterday again, and helped a friend moving on Saturday, so some muscle strain :) [09:08] but it was really good yesterday [09:17] chrisccoulson: btw, I did some samplings of the existing search plugins, and some are already localized; so I extracted them all from maverick's -base packages and committed them into langpack-o-matic [09:17] chrisccoulson: writing the necessary code/test cases now [09:17] chrisccoulson: I propose we only install them into -base and do a full maverick -base update, to clean up the replaces: mess [09:18] dpm: ^ FYI [09:18] dpm: (I just requested a full maverick export) [09:18] then maverick and natty will be consistent, and both will work again [09:20] hey pitti good morning, sounds good. How will this affect the ongoing testing of maverick langpacks? Do you want to call it off, release new full langpacks and re-new the call for testing? [09:20] pitti - thanks for working on this. i didn't realise that some were already localized :/ === RAOF_ is now known as RAOF [09:26] I'm off for some two hours for a doctor appointment [09:34] mvo, good morning [09:36] hey mpt [09:37] mvo, have you received any contributions this cycle on bits of ? [09:38] mpt: not that I'm aware of [09:38] mpt: there is the branch about renaming update-notifier to update-manager-daemon [09:38] but that was prev cycle iirc [09:38] ok [09:39] mpt: haven't look at the spec in detail since a while, but I remember we wanted to push more updates into the background, right? [09:40] mpt: oh, there was another patch to run the "update" automatically on manual invocation via the desktop file [09:40] mvo, more updates in the background was mdz's goal, but that's more a platform team thing to decide that they're confident enough to make it the default [09:41] mpt: fair enough, some support has landed in the unattended-upgrades branch now (but not enabled by default yet). so we can ask people running natty (once its final) to use it and give us feedback [09:42] Correcting the settings probably should happen before changing the defaults, otherwise there would be all sorts of confusion about exactly what had changed [09:44] indeed [09:44] I think that this is something we should push for next cycle [09:44] fixing the backend to be proper polkit etc [09:45] yah [11:29] smspillaz: since Friday or today (ish) I have huuuge shadows around the focussed window, which spills over a lot in the adjacent terminal windows. is that a bug, or meant to be that way? [11:36] pitti: its meant to be that way [11:36] we could clip the shadows of windows when they are close to each other but *shudder* that's a hack [11:36] ugh [11:37] the spillover to the adjacent virtual desktop is now also much worse than before [11:39] smspillaz: e. g. this (http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/tmp/shadow-spillover.png) is workspace 2 with a fullscreen firefox [11:39] you still see the shadow from teh terminal on workspace 1 [11:42] can someone upload the images http://i.imgur.com/CJL4C.jpg http://i.imgur.com/CJL4C.jpg to a site such as imagebin.org [11:43] that way I can see them (blocked by content screening for me) [11:43] ? [11:47] and471: http://imagebin.org/142915 [11:48] pitti: thanks very much === MacSlow is now known as MacSlow|lunch [12:40] anyone seen asac recently? is he on holiday? [12:41] Laney, the canonical calendar says he's on holiday today at least [12:41] seems he should be back tomorrow [12:46] ok === ogra is now known as Guest42034 [13:10] Hello. I noticed that some developers from desktop team often upgrade packages in Ubuntu if package exists in Debian. I was wondering why get upload access in Debian and upgrading there? === Guest42034 is now known as ogra_ [13:12] there is quite a bunch of sources updates in debian and synced but it's not always pratical [13:12] it requires having a debian installation and testing those there as well which is extra work [13:12] why not practical? [13:12] debian often doesn't track unstable series as we do [13:13] there is also quite some sources who have a maintainer who handle updates in a slower way than debian but doesn't want someone taking over his package [13:13] than "ubuntu" rather [13:14] seb128: I see not logical flow of work. e.g. Robert Ancell upgrades package then some day later merge with Debian. Why not get sync/merge directly from Debian? [13:15] anyway later merges do extra work as well [13:15] because we don't know when Debian will update and it makes sense to wait on them [13:15] they could not upgrade before natty [13:15] seb128: so I'm talking: get upload access in Debian and upgrade there. [13:16] it doubles the work and often those have a maintainer and not free to update [13:16] Debian updates are usually done by the maintainer not free to be done by whoever wants to do it [13:17] seb128: actual model doesn't double the work? maintainer and Robert upgrade packages. I'm counting this 1...2... double work! [13:17] right, but not double the work for us [13:18] it's two people doing the work once,it's not one doing it twice [13:18] I don't understand and it's still uneconomical for me. [13:18] well you might need to try for a bit to understand it ;-) [13:19] seb128: no, this is uneconomical [13:19] and eod. [13:19] I've basically stopped maintaining things in Debian when we have an Ubuntu diff [13:19] seb128: so let's blacklist all packages related to desktop team. [13:19] because it means: having to have a Debian unstable system uptodate to be able to do binaries build there, having the upload the binaries to debian and the source to debian and ubuntu [13:19] it doesn't make sense merge with Debian once a year. [13:20] having to deal with bugs in debian due to your update [13:20] having to ask for a sync request [13:20] test your update on both distros [13:20] you basically need 2 computers instead of one [13:20] or to play with vms, etc [13:21] not to mention you have to care about extra architectures and extra bugs if you become maintainer on the debian side [13:21] seb128: good point, VM ;-) [13:22] which you need to keep updated, which means blocking your downloads for ours every day if you are on a slow internet [13:22] ours->hours [13:23] not to mention that to get there you need to get upload rights to Debian, which is non trivial to get === MacSlow|lunch is now known as MacSlow [13:27] seb128_: does Robert test packages merged with Debian before uploading? [13:28] dunno, you would have to ask him but likely yes [13:28] why? [13:28] seb128_: if so, he spends a time anyway on testing, whatever whether it's on Debian or natty. [13:29] well testing on 2 distros mean you need to start them both, use them both for a while, see if it's buggy [13:29] so basically it means having 2 computers and switching between those [13:29] it's not because something builds or work on debian than it does on ubuntu [13:30] sometimes the gcc behaviour is different or the xorg stack is not in the same versions [13:31] hey pitti good morning, sounds good. How will this affect the ongoing testing of maverick langpacks? Do you want to call it off, release new full langpacks and re-new the call for testing? [13:31] ari-tczew: is apt.VersionCompare obsolete somehow? "from apt import VersionCompare" works in python-apt, but not any more in python3-apt [13:31] dpm: yes, as the current maverick ones are mostly broken anyway due to bug 732768 [13:31] Launchpad bug 732768 in langpack-o-matic "ask.com is the only search provider" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/732768 [13:32] pitti: I don't have an idea. why you're asking me? [13:32] ari-tczew: sorry; brain fart [13:32] mvo: is apt.VersionCompare obsolete somehow? "from apt import VersionCompare" works in python-apt, but not any more in python3-apt [13:32] kk [13:35] pitti, ok, I'll call it off then. There's another potential regression in the current maverick-proposed langpacks (bug 544203) - which is the best way to track it? Just leave it assigned to langpack-pt-br? [13:35] Launchpad bug 544203 in language-pack-pt-base "pt_BR and pt_PT firefox translations not included in Maverick" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/544203 [13:36] pitti: its the new push for "lower_case". i.e. version_compare() will work [13:37] mvo: ah, danke! [13:37] yw [13:40] mvo: hmm: AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'version_compare' [13:40] mvo: (neither in the py2 version) [13:46] pitti: python -c 'import apt_pkg; apt_pkg.version_compare' works for me, hold on a sec for py3 [13:46] pitti: aha, in apt [13:46] * mvo looks === seb128_ is now known as seb128 [13:56] mvo: oh, apt.apt_pkg.version_compare() apparenlty? [13:56] yeah [13:56] a bit silly IMO, worth talking to juliank about it [14:00] mvo: at least that works fine; now on to the replacement of apt_pkg.ParseTagFile().. :) [14:01] (got that, too) === bcurtiswx is now known as Guest95906 [14:24] tseliot, hey, can you please check out bug #733989 [14:24] Launchpad bug 733989 in xserver-xorg-video-intel "dragging with Dell Mini 10v track pad is unforgiving" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/733989 [14:24] note that it's a possible input issue, not a video issue [14:25] but it seems that something changed on my Dell Mini 10v [14:25] pedro_, can someone take a look at bug #734600 ? [14:25] Launchpad bug 734600 in gst-plugins-bad0.10 "camerabin throws an error in gst_camerabin_capture_start gstcamerabin.c(4036)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/734600 [14:26] * tseliot has a look === james_w` is now known as james_w [14:30] Heyo! I've got a FF exception for ya'll. So, I want to split time-admin into a separate package from gnome-system-tools (so that we can avoid having indicator-datetime-preferences and time-admin both installed by default). This will require a trivial binary package NEW approval and some seed changes for flavors that don't use indicator-datetime by default. This seems like maybe a FFe is in order? [14:30] rickspencer3: I see this line in your X log. Maybe the code that handles the option was changed: [14:30] Option "AreaBottomEdge" requires a percent value [14:30] s/for ya'll/question for ya'll/ [14:31] mterry, what else are we using from gnome-system-tools? we're pretty much at the point where we can drop it from the CD, right? [14:31] oh [14:31] users-admin too [14:31] right, users-admin [14:31] someone was supposed to package the new user-account thing previous cycle? ;-) [14:31] mterry, hey, check with pitti but seems a trivial ffe to get [14:31] yeah, it's merged in to the new control-center now though :P [14:32] mterry, you probably need a bug for the tracking [14:32] seb128, k [14:32] mterry: sounds fine, go ahead [14:33] mterry: will indicator-datetime-preferences do all the bits that time-admin provides? [14:33] pitti, yeah, both ntp and manual date changes [14:33] pitti, and timezone [14:33] nice [14:33] (and not "will", but "does" :)) [14:34] mterry: replacing t-a with i-d-p will require an FFE, though [14:35] pitti, it's not replacing, we have both now [14:35] ah, we do? ncie [14:35] can't tell, indicator-time still crashing :/ [14:35] pitti, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-system-tools/+bug/732757 [14:35] Launchpad bug 732757 in gnome-system-tools "FFe: time-admin and indicator-datetime-preferences shouldn't both be installed by default" [Undecided,New] [14:35] rickspencer3: so, yes, upstream changed the value that the option (which I originally implemented) accepts. It should be just a matter of updating a configuration file. I'll write further details in the bug report and fix the issue. Thanks for reporting the problem [14:36] pitti, indicator-datetime-preferences crashes or indicator-datetime does? you can run the prefs dialog manually [14:36] thanks tseliot! [14:36] mterry: the indicator-service does; right, it does start manually [14:38] mterry: Set the time "AUtomatically from the Internet" is grayed out for me, though [14:38] pitti, even if you authenticate? [14:38] yes [14:39] pitti, that's set insensitive if we asked system-tools daemon if you can use ntp or not. It apparently said no? [14:40] mterry: ah, I don't have ntp server installed indeed [14:40] hah, feature! [14:41] same confusion with 'ntpdate' as before, I guess [14:41] perhaps it shouldn't be displayed at all then [14:44] pitti, current behavior is part of the spec, so that's mpt's call [14:44] tedg, mterry, chrisccoulson: the recent appmenu-gtk update broke the desktop menu, not sure if any of you want to work on that [14:44] seb128, desktop menu? [14:44] like it doesn't display the nautilus menu when being on an empty workspace [14:45] seb128, Hmm, it does for me... [14:45] i'm still trying to get to the bottom of the unity-panel-service memory leaks ;) [14:45] (of which, i've managed to fix some) [14:45] doesn't here and we got a bug report where the user said that downgrading appmenu-gtk fixes it [14:45] seb128, Which bug number? [14:46] tedg, 733050 [14:46] bug 733050 [14:46] Launchpad bug 733050 in appmenu-gtk "appmenu-gtk 0.1.96-0ubuntu1 prevents desktop global menu from appearing" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/733050 [14:47] mterry, I didn't realize (though I should have guessed) it was possible to not have the ability to use NTP [14:48] mpt, huh yeah. I thought I had done that whole 'insensitive if can't use ntp' bit off a line in the spec, but looking now, I can't see it. I went rogue (<- pitti, I take it back, it is my fault. :)) [14:48] mterry, what do you think of prompting to install the NTP software if you click "Automatically from the internet" without it installed? [14:49] mpt, that's fine. I can work on that and file an FFe [14:50] I think that's what time-admin does, isn't it? [14:50] yes, just confirmed [14:50] mterry, mtp ^ [14:50] shoot, so we're not feature compatible [14:51] TBH I don't really like this [14:51] we already have ntpdate, so time should be good enough for desktops [14:51] I really don't see a strong case for installing ntpd locally [14:51] if I were the ruler of the world, I'd kill this radio button completely :) [14:52] pitti, and do what instead? [14:52] but I guess that was discussed over and over already [14:52] mpt: nothing; just offer to correct the time manually [14:52] pitti, it hasn't as far as I know, I was just pulling it out of my imagination [14:52] it already gets set whenever you (re)connect to the internet [14:52] set by ntpdate, I mean [14:53] pitti, it does? [14:54] kenvandine: /etc/network/if-up.d/ntpdate [14:54] pitti, so are you saying that if Ubuntu can connect to an NTP server, you sholdn't be able to override it manually at all? [14:54] shouldn't [14:54] mpt: there are two ways to get NTP [14:54] pitti, and that happens by default right? [14:54] mpt: (1) ntpdate; that's what we install by default, there is no GUI for configuration, and it's done when you connect to the net [14:54] if so... then i think ntpd shouldn't get installed [14:55] mpt: (2) a local ntpd server, which has a different configuration file, which you can set up by time-admin (and apparently the indicator prefs now) [14:55] (2) is useful if you don't reboot your computer very often (like servers), and never change/reconnect to your network [14:56] pitti, I didn't know that #2 existed, so I wasn't designing with it in mind :-) [14:56] mpt: right; it's utterly confusing [14:57] pitti, what's confusing about it? [14:57] it leads people into thinking that there's no internet sync by default, and that they better install that [14:57] mpt: that there are two independent NTP ways, and that the GUI doesn't point this out [14:57] But "Automatically from the Internet" is selected by default, right? [14:57] So it is synced by default [14:57] i. e. that GUI thing will switch from "sync time when you connect to the network" to "permanently sync time with the network" [14:57] i would say just drop it from the gui then... let it just happen [14:58] mpt: no, we don't install ntpd by default (for good reasons), so it's grayed out by default [14:58] pitti, but the interface isn't for ntpd. Again, I didn't even know that ntpd existed. [14:58] mpt: time-admin offers you to install ntpd when you select the option, in time-admin-prefs it's insensitive [14:58] mterry, ^ [14:58] gnargh [14:58] mpt, i think it is for time-admin [14:58] mterry, maybe wait before adding the option ;-) [14:58] mpt: time-admin's interface is for ntpd; if time-admin-prefs replicates that, then it will be, too (and I think it does according to what mterry said) [14:59] ok, so, next question [14:59] mpt: if even you and I get confused by it, I wonder what users will think.. [14:59] mpt: don't get me wrong, time-admin isn't any better here [14:59] seb128, yeah, I'm watching. I remember now dealing with this in oem a bit actually. [14:59] but maybe that's the right time to remove this confusion [14:59] *Why* does time-admin have an interface for ntpd? [14:59] mpt: good question [14:59] mpt, designed by geeks.. [14:59] :) [15:00] it's a rather advanced thing [15:00] It doesn't look like it [15:00] seb128, So are you getting the no-desktop menus error? [15:00] pitti, the choices in time-admin are "Manual" and "Keep synchronized with Internet servers". I see no mention of "Keep synchronized with a local network server". [15:00] or anything like that [15:01] hello mpt, pitti, seb128 and mvo [15:01] hey glatzor [15:01] hey glatzor [15:01] tedg, on unity yes, I didn't try in GNOME [15:01] mvo: have you already found the time to look at python-apt multiarch? [15:01] tedg, well it's not so much an error that you don't get the nautilus menu on empty desktops [15:01] mpt: if you install ntpd locally, the local server will regularly sync with internet ones, and then your local computer clock to the local ntpd [15:01] seb128, Can you see if killing nautilus fixes it? I'm curious if it's just restarting nautilus with the newer version that fixes it :) [15:02] tedg, it does [15:02] phey glatzor [15:02] brb, plumber just arrived [15:02] glatzor: no, sorry :( [15:03] pitti, so the behavior of "Keep synchronized with Internet servers" is different depending on whether ntpd is installed? [15:03] seb128, Okay. I bet it's a race, probably not version dependent. [15:04] mpt, no, I think what pitti's saying is that we don't actually have a real "manual time" option. That the two choices right now are secretly "keep synchronized all the time" and "synchronize when you connect to the internet" === rodrigo__ is now known as rodrigo_ [15:05] mterry, then what are the time and date controls for? [15:05] For making temporary changes that get washed away next time you connect to the Internet? [15:05] mpt: yes [15:05] mpt, good question. Yup, sounds like. I remember dealing with a bug about that in oem now [15:05] Eh. [15:05] if you have an offline computer, or wnat to change it on the plane, etc. [15:05] That's daft. [15:06] mpt: note you can disable ntpdate in /etc/default/ntpdate [15:06] but we don't have a GUI for it [15:06] pitti, but there's no policykit-friendly way to change ntpdate's config, eh? [15:06] so perhaps we should devote the time-admin-pref to configuring ntpdate instaead of ntpd? [15:06] mterry: no, you'd need a backend which changes /etc/default/ntpdate [15:07] pitti, yeah, we could switch system-tools-backend to configure that setting [15:07] mterry: ah, it's actually using s-t-b? [15:07] pitti, yeah [15:07] I had hoped it has its own thing, as I'd like to drop s-t-b at some point [15:07] (and g-s-t) [15:07] mterry, didn't we say to uyse g-s-d? [15:07] pitti, actually, let me confirm. i just wrote this, but even I'm confused [15:08] seb128, yeah, i think i was wrong about s-t-b [15:08] mterry, you backport g-s-d3 code for that iirc [15:08] mpt: are you concerned about "temporary changes that get washed away next time you connect to the Internet?"? [15:08] seb128, pitti: yep, uses new g-s-d code [15:08] mpt: i. e. would you deliberately want to set a wrong clock? [15:09] so same point though, we could modify g-s-d to configure ntpdate instead [15:09] pitti, yes, I know some people who deliberately set their clock ten minutes early to make them more likely to get to things on time (for example) === bjf is now known as bjf[afk] [15:09] hah [15:09] mpt: off-topic, but curious: does that actually work? I mean, your brain would know that the time is off.. [15:10] pitti, yeah, as long as you don't think about it too hard [15:10] doesn't work for me, I know how much my clock is off and adapt to that ;-) [15:12] pitti, Doesn't matter if it works, many people swear by it. :-) [15:13] * tedg just sets his clock to yesterday so that I can always say "I sent you that e-mail yesterday!" [15:13] You could still get the previous behavior of "I'll tell you what the time is now, but update it when I next go online" by setting the time manually then clicking the "Automatically..." radio button [15:13] mpt: so ideally we would re-devote this radio button between "manual" (completely) and "automatic" which would be the default and mean ntpdate [15:13] yes [15:13] mterry: as a poor man's PK backend, you could call pkexec sed -i ... :) [15:14] pitti, makes sense to do it the Real way, that way time-admin gets benefit too [15:15] pitti, is this an Ubuntu thing, using ntpdate? [15:15] pitti, I'm curious if I should bother talking to upstream about such a change [15:15] mterry: Debian as well at least; not sure about Fedora [15:15] mterry: certainly worth investigating [15:16] pitti, OK. Sounds like I should file a FFe for this too, eh? [15:16] mterry: for changing what g-s-d backend configures? I guess might be better, yes [15:17] I'm happy to ack it, but at least there's a paper trail [15:17] we'll need a bug report for the thing anyway (for documentation, upstream link, etc.) [15:19] sooooo, the ntpd case === zyga is now known as zyga-ill [15:21] mterry, pitti: If you do have ntpd installed, is there any GUI-worthy situation in which you'd want to use an Internet NTP server *instead of* the local NTP server? [15:22] mpt: I don't think so; you want to configure the input sources for the local ntpd of course (that's what time-admin does), but aside from testing scenarios it's much quicker to use the local ntpd then [15:23] mterry, pitti: ok, how about this: [15:24] Whenever “Set the time:” is set to “Automatically from the Internet”, the “Time:” and “Date:” controls should be insensitive, and the time and date should be updated from the local NTP server (if there is one) or otherwise Internet NTP servers whenever you go online. [15:24] pitti, if ntpd is installed, does ntpdate use it? [15:24] mpt: that sounds like a great way to fit all three methods [15:24] pitti, i.e. does ntpdate become a no-op? [15:24] mterry: RTFS, hang on [15:25] mpt, and "manual time" should actually do what it says on the tin, right? and not reset when you connect to the Internet? [15:25] mterry: apparently not, when I interpret /usr/sbin/ntpdate-debian correctly [15:25] ntpdate will always run if it is installed [15:26] mterry, right [15:26] pitti, so you'd connect, ntpdate would use Internet servers, then in a sec ntpd would set local time from local server? so you'd potentially have a time hiccup? [15:26] mterry: yes, but usually at the ntpdate time [15:26] pitti, yeah. that's a separate, tiny bug [15:27] mterry: diff between ntpdate and local ntpd should be by and large 0, if you configured your ntpd [15:27] mpt, ok, I understand what we want, am working on paperwork and code [15:29] mterry, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeAndDate?action=diff&rev2=24&rev1=22 [15:29] pitti, /etc/default/ntpdate does not seem to have a conditional to control whether it runs? [15:30] mterry: you can disable $NTPSERVERS [15:30] like, comment it out [15:30] pitti, hrm... ok [15:33] mterry, btw not sure if you checked the open bugs but while you are at it there is a bug about the dialog not having a proper name and icon if you want to fix those ;-) [15:33] mterry, easy to notice in the unity launcher [15:34] seb128, it was missing a .desktop file, already fixed in trunk ;) [15:34] mterry, great ;-) [15:34] mterry and pitti, thanks for helping me understand all that. [15:35] pitti, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-settings-daemon/+bug/734894 [15:35] Launchpad bug 734894 in gnome-settings-daemon "FFe: DBus time API should control ntpdate, not ntpd" [Undecided,New] [15:44] mterry: (will look in a bit, me@phone) [15:55] seb128, didrocks, mterry: do you have anything for gnome-control-center? otherwise I'll do an upload now [15:55] pitti: nothing particular for me [15:55] pitti, no [15:55] pitti, no [15:56] good, thanks [16:00] pitti: Hello Martin, could you pls take a look at bug 636693? Currently the design of indicator-session and gdm-guest-session are contradictory in that the indicator menu item "Guest Session" precludes interactivity such as a zenity dialog in /etc/guest-session/prepare.sh. I for one fail to understand why Ted persists. Maybe you and he could talk about it author to author at some time or other? [16:00] Launchpad bug 636693 in indicator-session "Premature lock when launching guest session" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/636693 [16:08] Is there a robust way to programmatically comment/uncomment lines in bash scripts? I'd like to be able to run something like "comment VARIABLE /path/to/script". I can do it with sed, but doesn't seem as fool-proof === alecu is now known as alecu-lunch [16:10] pitti, what are issues with installing ntpd by default? [16:13] mterry: nonzero overhead (extra CPU power, battery drainage, network traffic, CD space) for very little benefit [16:14] k [16:14] mterry: and formally it violates the "no open ports in default install" policy [16:16] mterry: commented and asked skaet to review [16:20] hey GunnarHj [16:20] GunnarHj: ok, tab opened for it; I'll have a look soon [16:22] pitti: Good, then I 'rest my case' for now. :) [16:24] GunnarHj, still arguing with ted over this one? [16:24] GunnarHj, I've to admit I fail to see what you really want to get there [16:26] pitti, hrmm. NTPSERVERS is ignored if /etc/ntp.conf exists and NTPDATE_USE_NTP_CONF=yes (which it does by default). I may want to add an NTPDATE_ENABLED var [16:27] mterry: that's correct [16:28] seb128: Yes, unfortunately I am. The use case that made me suggest it was a zenity dialog where you select the guest session language on-the-fly when launching the session. [16:28] mterry: but /etc/ntp.conf doesn't exist by default, only if you install ntpd [16:28] pitti, yeah, but if you do have both installed, i still want to be able to disable ntp.conf [16:28] I mean, ntpdate [16:29] mterry: I think we should do that differently -- if ntpdate-debian sees that ntpd is installed and enabled, it probably shouldn't run at all [16:29] mterry: that would also avoid the "time jump" at connection time [16:29] (ntpd can gradually move the system clock to the right time) [16:30] pitti, OK [16:32] pitti, and you'd still prefer to (un)comment NTPSERVERS? Seems so indirect [16:33] Doesn't really matter. Not adding an NTPDATE_ENABLED is easier than adding it [16:33] mterry: I have no strong opinion there, except that if we add a new var I'd like to see it getting added to Debian as well [16:33] other packages might read the file, too === smspillaz is now known as smspillazzzz [16:42] pitti, since NTPDATE_USE_NTP_CONF=yes is a thing, we probably don't have a "time jump" issue? the existing ntpdate.ifup seems to explicitly stop ntpd and start it after, which implies there's a usecase. What would be the usecase for running ntpdate if ntpd is on? [16:43] seb128: Btw, there are more details about the background at http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1566078 [16:43] mterry: the only thing that this does is to take the $NTPSERVERS configuration from /etc/ntp.conf instead of from /etc/default/ntpdate [16:43] mterry: but ntpdate still gets called, so you would have a time jump [16:44] pitti, because ntpd gradually adjusts rather than all at once? [16:44] mterry: hm, indeed; I think it's even more wrong to stop/restart ntpd, ntpdate should shut up if it's running [16:44] mterry: yes [16:44] mterry: and for the latter, because ntpd updates regularly instead of just at if-up.d time [16:44] pitti, ok, will make the patch and throw to debian too [16:45] cool, thanks! === bjf[afk] is now known as bjf [16:52] pitti, there is a new gobject-introspection which can be synced from Debian, should we get it? [16:52] * pitti checks upstream changelog [16:53] seb128: yes, only one bug fix, can be synced [16:53] pitti, ok, will do [16:53] merci [16:53] de rien [16:55] Good day all. [16:56] hey bcurtiswx [16:56] Hey seb128 [16:57] kenvandine: Do you use an colloquy bouncer? [16:57] bcurtiswx, never heard of it [16:57] isn't colloquy a mac thing? [16:57] kenvandine: Yes I'm using my iPad. [16:58] nope, not using it [16:58] Do you have an irc bouncer tho? [16:58] i haven't owned an apple product in many years [16:58] znc [16:58] Ok may I pm you? [16:58] sure === alecu-lunch is now known as alecu [17:14] pitti: hi, i would like to drop the scour dependency for humanity.. :) === tkamppeter_ is now known as tkamppeter [17:23] jasoncwarner, [17:23] jasoncwarner, hi [17:49] tedg, kenvandine, mterry: bug #734616 might be worth investigating [17:49] Launchpad bug 734616 in lernid "lernid hangs closing the "about" window or the preferences dialog window" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/734616 [17:50]