ojwbhads: ah, I just regenerated the list in ~/.xmltv01:55
ojwblooks better now, except for no icon, but I guess there just isn't one available yet01:56
fmarierojwb what happened to the php5-xapian package in Debian/Ubuntu?03:22
fmarierare the php bindings deprecated or unmaintained?03:22
ojwbfmarier: no, php licence + GPL = boom03:23
ojwbor at least that seems to be the prevailing opinion - it's not completely clear to me if PHP and GPL are incompatible03:24
ojwbthe PHP licence has a stupid requirement that you can't use a name for your derived version which includes PHP03:24
* ajmitch digs up the bug for that & winces03:24
fmarierah, yeah, the php license sucks03:24
ojwbwhich people have taken to mean you couldn't call it graphplotter, for example03:25
ajmitchthat's idiotic03:25
ojwbwhich is a fairly strong naming restriction03:25
mwhudsonthis is why hiphop was such a clever name for facebook's thing :)03:25
ojwbthey really want to stop people like phpnuke I think03:25
fmariermwhudson: that's awesome03:25
ojwbbut that is derived code, so doesn't help03:26
ojwbis *NOT*03:26
fmarierphpmyadmin is another one they should stop IMO03:26
ojwbyeah, though it's not like PHP has a terribly good name to be besmirching03:26
mwhudsonany love for phpBB?03:26
ibeardsleeonly for abuse03:26
ajmitchburn it with fire?03:26
ojwbreally they want a trademark to actually address such issues03:26
ibeardsleeMasochism & phpBB03:27
ojwbbut from what I've seen of past licence discussions with PHP upstream, they're unlikely to see sense03:27
ajmitchas long as they didn't restrict patching php & being able to use the name03:27
ojwband xapian has code we can't get relicensed, so an exception for PHP isn't possible there03:27
fmarierso it wasn't written from scratch by you guys?03:28
ojwbajmitch: strictly speaking, we probably can't:03:28
ojwb  4. Products derived from this software may not be called "PHP", nor03:28
ojwb     may "PHP" appear in their name, without prior written permission03:28
ojwb     from group@php.net.  You may indicate that your software works in03:28
ojwb     conjunction with PHP by saying "Foo for PHP" instead of calling03:28
ojwb     it "PHP Foo" or "phpfoo"03:28
ojwbfmarier: well, yes and no03:29
ajmitchojwb: excellent, an excuse to drop php from debian :)03:29
ojwbit was originally "open muscat" and being written mostly by people currently involved but as employees03:29
ojwbit's not even clear who owns the brighstation copyright now03:29
ojwbI know who claims to, but another company seem to assume they do too03:30
ojwborange (the mobile phone people) own some too, and negotiation with them proved rather fruitless03:30
ojwbthey seemed obsessed with me retrospectively signing an employment contract I refused to sign at the time03:31
fmarierajmitch: i'm sure the security team would approve given all of the crap that depends on php that would then need to be removed :)03:31
ajmitchfmarier: unfortunately a few people tend to use those buggy apps03:32
ojwbI guess you could argue that the debian package is "php5" which doesn't contain "PHP"03:32
ojwbthough their "phpfoo" example suggests they intend the case to matter03:32
ajmitchit'd depend on how they interpreted derived work03:32
mwhudsondoesn't "PHP" appear in "Foo for PHP" ?03:33
ajmitch& how a court would :)03:33
ojwbto not matter03:33
ojwbmwhudson: 'or "phpfoo"'03:33
ojwbmwhudson: oh, ISWYM03:33
ojwbyes, that's somewhat murky03:33
ojwbI think again it's trademark-ish03:34
* mwhudson .oO(how many idiotic licensing discussions can dance on the head of a pin)03:34
ojwbyou can use a trademark to identify something AIUI03:34
ajmitchso in essence their licensing is about as bad as the code03:34
* mwhudson tries to remember if the PSF owns the trade mark on "Python"03:34
* ojwb discovered a fun one last week03:34
mwhudsoni _think_ it does03:34
ojwbthe PHP C API call to set a constant uses a length one different to the call to read a constant...03:34
ajmitchmwhudson: google says yes03:34
mwhudson79 unread in psf-members03:35
mwhudsonlife isn't that boring yet :)03:35
ojwbfmarier: anyway, the long term plan is that we'll eventually have replaced all the code we can't relincense in xapian03:36
ojwbGPL doesn't make huge amount of sense given it's used extensively as a backend for web services - it's like there's a liberal licence for those people, but a copyleft one for others03:38
ojwband lucene uses the apache license, so less restrictive is more sensible I think03:39
fmariersolr really has ugly version numbers:
ojwbbut what if they want to make more than one release per second?03:56
fmarierojwb use an epoch?03:57
fmarierlooks even better03:57
ojwbfmarier: were you wanting to use xapian in php?03:58
ojwbif so, debian/rules still has support for building it03:58
fmarieryeah i was looking into it, but it's for an open source project, so we do need to have a properly licensed library...03:59
ojwbjust uncomment: # PHP_VERSIONS := 503:59
ojwban alternative is to use omega's XML output03:59
* ajmitch is awfully tempted to get a laptop with an SSD21:47
ibeardsleeajmitch: just do it21:55
ajmitchibeardslee: costs $21:56
ibeardsleetrue that21:58
chiltsand my next lappy will have an SSD21:59
chiltsmy desktop at home has a 40GB SSD and it boots in about 4 seconds :)21:59
ajmitchibeardslee: acquiring $ depends on how much employers are willing to fork over :)21:59
chiltsthe initial time for the computer to start is longer than Ubuntu getting to the sign in page21:59
ibeardsleeI think my netbook is bit slow on the start, even with the SSD22:01
* ojwb prefers a computer which doesn't need restarting often22:01
ojwbnow time to resume from hibernate...22:01
ajmitchas do I, but SSD helps for everyday use, not just restarting22:01
* snail will refrain from whinging about the enterprise windows7 upgrade he is participating in22:16
ajmitchbut it's enterprise, so it must be good...22:16
* ibeardslee tries hard to refrain from laughing22:18
snailthe one good thing about windows upgrades (compared to linux upgrades) is that they nuked the disk and started from scratch so you had identical machines with identical faults. not any more22:20
* ibeardslee installs likewise-open22:26
* ajmitch has heard that likewise-open works pretty well22:27
ojwbibeardslee: it doesn't work with newer ubuntu versions22:27
ajmitchnever really had a chance to try it though22:27
ajmitchojwb: what's broken with it?22:27
ojwbjust doesn't work22:27
ojwbat least with the last LTS22:27
ojwblikewise know about it22:27
ojwbpossibly fixed now, this was a few months ago22:28
ojwbbut they didn't seem to be in any hurry22:28
ojwba client was trying to use it22:28
ajmitchI see that version 6 is in natty, so it may have a chance of working22:28
ojwbit's not compatible with a new enough samba version22:28
ajmitchthrough being broken on an LTS is pretty dire22:29
ojwbindeed - we just avoided the dependency in the end22:29
ibeardsleeyeah it is looking like LTS ain't going to make the PoC22:30
ibeardsleethe exchange mapi is too old22:30
ibeardsleemight end up focusing on maverick22:31
ajmitchby exchange mapi, you mean the evolution thing?22:34
ajmitch& evolution is one of those packages that's a pig to backport because of how many libraries it drags around22:38
ibeardsleeyes, so I'm discovering22:39
ajmitchI was reading the bug about it earlier22:39
ibeardsleethe LTS is an ideal target for a proof of concept you'd expect it to be solid22:40
ibeardsleethe various PPA I've seen have a bunch of incomplete, stopped etc22:40
ojwbthere's always squeeze...22:46
ibeardsleeor redhat22:48
ajmitchojwb: sadly even squeeze falls down in a few areas where things need to be up to date22:49
ojwbajmitch: any non-rolling release will have that issue22:50
ajmitchyeah, I'm still waiting for certain packages to be updated in sid or experimental :)22:51
ojwbbut squeeze is at least LTS-like22:51
ojwbor the NEW queue...22:51
ajmitchit took a bit less than 2 months for a package of mine to get through NEW recently :)22:52
* ajmitch should upgrade the servers for work to squeeze sometime in the next few months22:55
ojwbajmitch: is that the experimental one?22:58
ojwbwas just ahead of mine, but mine is still languishing22:59
ojwbthe NEW queue manages to be both apparently very open and almost completely opaque, which is a good trick22:59
ajmitchyeah, ubuntu-sso-client22:59
ojwbgod, I killed that on the ubuntu laptop22:59
ojwbit was using a huge amount of memory23:00
ajmitchnot surprising, but it's needed for some other packages23:00
ojwband I doubt I've ever used it or every will23:00
ajmitchI wish I knew why desktopcouch needs to depend on it... :)23:00
ajmitchI doubt I'd have time to help out on the FTP team & review package licenses23:01
ojwbit's ok, it seems ok to pick just the ones you like23:02

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