[06:26] <evilvish> kwwii: hey, any reason *not* to kick/ban john from the ML ?
[06:27] <evilvish> kwwii: he is repeatedly lying on the list and it seems time to end his nonsense
[06:32] <doctormo> evilvish: +1 from me
[06:33] <evilvish> :)
[06:33] <evilvish> totally ridiculous to keep watching out for what he is doing/writing... :/
[12:21] <coz_> wow .. even after all this  john had the balls to say  "
[12:21] <coz_> There was some confusion on this topic but I was assured by the Design Team all submissions would be considered.
[13:00] <evilvish> coz_: checkout » http://www.flickr.com/photos/59282996@N04/5427699966/  < the comments
[13:00] <evilvish>  he knowingly is misdirecting..! :/
[13:01] <coz_> evilvish,  oh damn... and here I had been giving him the benefit of the doubt
[13:02] <coz_> evilvish,  well then I apologize,, I was certainly hoping he had a valid reason for doing this... apparenly I am not always right :)
[13:03] <evilvish> nah.. we tried talking to him, i think he is trying to prove that he is capable or something :s
[13:03] <evilvish> coz_: also, check out the sig when he posts such messages..  ;)
[13:03] <coz_> evilvish,  well if he wants to be seen as capable ... should he at least link to his actual work?
[13:04] <evilvish>  yea,
[13:21] <darkmatter> good morning children
[13:21] <coz_> darkmatter,  hey guy
[13:24] <darkmatter> mornin' coz_ /me finally figured out how to implement my activities ('desktops"/"workspaces" in common jargon) :D
[13:24] <coz_> very cool :)
[13:25] <darkmatter> coz_ by treating them kinda like windows xD
[13:32] <darkmatter> coz_: do you remember amigas screens? you know, where you could "drag down" to peek underneath o toggle though the z-ordering, even grab from one screen to another (dnd). that's the inspiration, but taken further (while maintaining a pattern with windows). what if you could actually _move_ a workspace the way you move a window, or "iconify" it to an extent (think like the compiz shelf plugin, but a bit diff, but the same "shrink it"
[13:32] <darkmatter> mentality)
[13:33] <coz_> darkmatter,  cool...I sort of remember amigas stuff
[13:36] <darkmatter> coz_ gotta sort it out a bit, but it fits, and brings a more balanced pattern to things, since a workspace is a window after a fashion (the desktop window). KISS and all ;p
[13:37] <coz_> darkmatter,  sounds right... would love to see it in action :)
[13:37] <darkmatter> coz_: but even though it would simplify pattern, when you think of "usage".. rawrrrrrrr! the power xD
[13:37] <coz_> :)
[13:40] <darkmatter> yes. I'm trying to merge even simplcity and "usabilty for stupid monkeys" with impossible levels of efficiency and multitasking. works in concept so far.
[13:41] <coz_> darkmatter,  well I am absolutely confident you will get this up and running at some point :)
[13:42] <coz_>   guys I have to break here,,, be back in a bit
[18:38] <thorwil> http://jonathancarter.org/2011/03/15/new-edubuntu-wallpapers/
[18:51] <evilvish> lol, i like his "don't panic" idea :)
[19:15] <evilvish> thorwil: "And here I thought you 2 would be on the same team." cheeky ;p
[19:15] <thorwil> :)
[19:15] <evilvish> heh, i just thought that john dint realize mpt had filed the bug..
[19:17] <thorwil> evilvish: i was tempted to note that apparently the design process is fucked up beyond hope, but decided to leave it with that comparatively friendly line
[19:17] <evilvish> heh, yea.. Unity is in a bit of a design mess.. :s
[19:17] <evilvish> btw, twas Bug #732653
[19:17] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 732653 in unity "Menus are hidden by default" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/732653
[19:19] <thorwil> just incredible disgraceful
[19:20]  * thorwil wonders if disgraceful should be graceless 
[19:20] <evilvish> it was funny when the bug was closed, its basically telling the guy who wrote the spec to bugger off!
[19:29] <evilvish> hmm, i'm really liking the equinox engine … especially works nice for a dark theme..
[19:42] <coz_> hey all
[19:47] <thorwil> coz_: so john is outright lying and still nothing happens?
[19:48] <coz_> thorwil,  well apparently,,, and I am very disappointed
[19:48] <coz_> thorwil,  I always assume there is a valid reason for someone's behavior ,, but I am puzzled by this one
[19:50] <thorwil> when faced with insanity, a team/project must be able to shut out the troublemaker
[19:51] <coz_> thorwil,  well  I suppose that is the alternative... I am just very puzzled about the his motivation
[19:53] <coz_> If I were to pull something like this off,,, I would first offer up my work ,,, ask that others with similar skills get involved,, join to learn to increase their skills.. then eventually off ther work of the newly formed group as a valid alternative for  official eye to choose work
[19:53] <coz_> offer there
[19:54] <coz_> offer "their"
[19:54] <coz_> damn fingers
[19:54] <coz_> of course I would have to learn to type better
[19:54] <coz_> :)
[19:57] <coz_> I am not sure I have seen his work,,, nor any format ,,carefully thought out... that would also allow people to join to enhance and improve their personal skills,,  right now it is jump in and join regardless of capabilities... pixel pushers  I believe troy would say,,, although I like pushing about pixels :)
[20:00] <coz_> I realize the "community" aspect of ubutnu is far overplayed and exagerated,, it still,, none the less ,, attracts people in the hopes of contributing,,, if I were to do this is would requre a greater set of skills  from the artist,, submissions of those skills.  and certainly the desire to pull from one another to improve those skills , with the hopes of creating a group of people who are "bulls"  at what they do ,, difficu
[20:00] <coz_> lt to ignore
[20:01] <evilvish>  <evilvish> kwwii: hey, any reason *not* to kick/ban john from the ML ?
[20:01] <evilvish>  <evilvish> kwwii: he is repeatedly lying on the list and it seems time to end his nonsense
[20:01] <evilvish>  <doctormo> evilvish: +1 from me
[20:02] <evilvish> so, it would be great if kwwii bans him from both the ML and the LP teams or if he gave admin rights to someone who wants to do it ;)
[20:03] <coz_> evilvish,  I just hate to see an action such as "banning"  to temporarily solve what may be a deeper issue
[20:03] <evilvish> coz_: unfortunately, time for talking is over ;)
[20:03] <evilvish> coz_: he does not reply to questions..
[20:04] <coz_> evilvish,  I agree  and unfortunately I see no other alternative  to his non-response  responses
[20:04] <coz_> I just wish I could understand the motivation
[20:04] <coz_> I still dont know why withouth seeing some of his work
[20:04] <coz_> is he that highly skilled to offer a valid alternative
[20:04] <coz_> ??
[20:05] <coz_> it just seems like wanting to get an "artist's  colony'
[20:05] <coz_> going without and gudelines
[20:05] <coz_> any not and
[20:06] <evilvish> coz_: even if he is picasso , i dont think he can live above any community.. he needs to learn to work with others..
[20:06] <coz_> evilvish,  well if he were picasso I would be on that side  :)
[20:06] <evilvish> haha!
[20:07] <coz_> evilvish,  that would stand a much better chance to eventually influence and potentially control ubuntu graphics inclusions
[20:07] <evilvish> coz_: i'm just of the impression he is not of sane mind
[20:07] <coz_> evilvish,  oh well I disagree there,, I think none of us understand his motivation,,, I dont think it "unsound"  we just dont understand why
[20:07]  * evilvish doesnt think Picasso stands a chance against Mark ;p
[20:08] <coz_> evilvish,   i think picasso is far more qalivided than mark
[20:08] <coz_> qualified
[20:08] <evilvish> coz_: qualified? yes! but will he be able to influence Ubuntu? doubtful ;)
[20:09] <coz_> evilvish,  again i disagree,,, quality almost ,, in these situations... grab the attention of those who make final decisions...after all why not go for the best instead of  lesser
[20:09] <thorwil> coz_: you can't just "require" more skill. those with the abilities are either just busy, or have so many other channels
[20:09] <thorwil> coz_: but that general problem and what john is doing are entirely separate
[20:10] <thorwil> coz_: he has his work in the flickr pools and has a blog at http://www.projblog.com/
[20:10]  * evilvish caused the tangent by dropping Picasso's name :)
[20:10] <coz_> let me look at that before i respond
[20:10] <thorwil> and most amazingly: http://www.ubuntu-gallery.com/
[20:11] <coz_> mm some of that is interesting
[20:11] <coz_> I dont see much effort in composition there
[20:12] <thorwil> coz_: examples of his work: http://www.ubuntu-gallery.com/?p=373
[20:12] <thorwil> http://www.ubuntu-gallery.com/?p=165
[20:12] <thorwil> http://www.ubuntu-gallery.com/?p=156
[20:12] <thorwil> http://www.ubuntu-gallery.com/?p=118
[20:12] <coz_> mmm
[20:13] <thorwil> http://www.ubuntu-gallery.com/?p=403
[20:13] <thorwil> http://www.ubuntu-gallery.com/?p=216
[20:13] <thorwil> http://www.ubuntu-gallery.com/?p=206
[20:14] <coz_> some are " lively"  " busy"  "colourful"
[20:14] <coz_> I sort of like this one   http://www.ubuntu-gallery.com/?p=216
[20:15] <coz_> a little busy for desktop wallpaper
[20:15] <thorwil> coz_: now how exactly does his skill or lack thereof change anything about the fact that he distorts facts and sometimes tells outright lies?
[20:16] <coz_> thorwil,   greater skills allow for greater visions and awareness ...the ability to discern bewteen appropriateness and dishevelment
[20:17] <coz_> thorwil,  and the ability to recognize the skills in others that can
[20:17] <thorwil> coz_: i suddenly lose all interest to talk with you
[20:17] <coz_> lol
[20:17] <coz_> thorwil,  well I take no offense to that
[20:18] <coz_> but it does make one aware of your tolerance
[20:19] <coz_> I cant judge this fellow with "ubuntu " specifically in mind...although that is most likely part of his motivation
[20:19] <thorwil> he could combine the skills of da vinci, dali and le corbusiere (sp?), a lie is a lie and no way to work in a team
[20:20] <coz_> thorwil,  that would be  not possible... with that kind of skill he would be the team
[20:20] <coz_> no need for anyone else
[20:20] <coz_> and we would benefit by his visions ...yes?
[20:21] <thorwil> only if sabdfl would see it, too
[20:21] <coz_> thorwil,  mark would be very well "swayed" by that kind of talent or be labled a fool
[20:22] <coz_> if there is a "long term"  vision of ubuntu... this needs to be made more than clear by mark and whomever else would be responsible for that vision
[20:22] <thorwil> coz_: i don't mean to be offensive, but this careful dancing around issues and always commenting with no action does get tiresome ;)
[20:23] <coz_> thorwil,  no action?  I am not in the position to "act on any action"
[20:24] <coz_> and if once made clear,,, it would be more than foolish not to use those capable of producing work that follows through with , enhances,, and makes real that visioni... so it could be a  team or an individual ....yes?
[20:24] <thorwil> coz_: you bring up composition very often. perhaps you could have a lasting effect on others by offering a showcase?
[20:25] <coz_> thorwil,  i have some of my work online already  ,, ready and willing to hear comments
[20:25] <coz_> thorwil,  and skills at composition are pretty good
[20:26] <coz_> it is the one absolute requirement for any work of art ,, graphics...music,, literature,, different media ,, different tools ,, identical mind set
[20:26] <coz_> there are NO alternatives to it
[20:27] <thorwil> the thing is, the field is often left to the clueless, sometimes on the list, very often on the forum. the silence of those who do know better leaves space for ignorance and misconceptions to bread
[20:27] <coz_> thorwil,  boy I do agree with that
[20:28] <coz_> thorwil,  I have tired to comment... I have been often s hot down for some comments in the past... I have tired to educate again with bad results ,,, mainly from "ubuntu" people
[20:28] <coz_> I simply ignored and moved on... assuming they are fools and it is their loss not mine
[20:28] <thorwil> must have been before my time :)
[20:28] <coz_> most likely
[20:29] <coz_> thorwil,  I had been banned on the foums for some of my work by those idiots
[20:29] <coz_> forums
[20:29] <thorwil> coz_: banned? i don't think you painted sexually explicit hog-riding midgets, or something?
[20:30] <coz_> thorwil,  the biggest issue was a nude painting of one of the femaile developers...
[20:30] <coz_> with her blessing
[20:30] <thorwil> tricky
[20:30] <coz_> apparenlty ,, even with the nude photos offered by ubuntu...a painting was sexually explicit
[20:31] <coz_> no valid reason for the ban nor any reason I should coninue to offer any one the opportunity to speak with me about techniques
[20:33] <coz_> so , in some sense. i come to this john issue with a slightly different perspective,,,  is what he is doing a valid alternative to "the team"  ,, is it a " I will get even"   or a blatent,, " i dont give a shit what you say"
[20:34] <thorwil> coz_: finally i understand your take
[20:34] <coz_> I dont know... what I do know is he does ignore,, evade... and lie
[20:34] <coz_> but "why" is still the question
[20:35] <coz_> and I believe an important one to have answered,,, but to this point ,, I dont see that being done willingly with john
[20:36] <thorwil> i'd make why optional and put it behind john facing consequences
[20:36] <coz_> thorwil,  in the end ,, I believe it is up to you guys who may have far more influence on the "official" side than I do
[20:38] <thorwil> i created consequences of another kind and scope. a trigger for some reconsiderations, but apparently not enough
[20:38] <coz_> thorwil,  and I understand your frustrations around this issue
[20:39] <coz_> thorwil,  personally ,,although I would like to know "why" he is doing this,,, in reality ,, it certainly can be distruptive to the team...
[20:39] <coz_> is he essentially "forking"  the team?
[20:39] <coz_> or attempting to do so?
[20:42] <thorwil> i think you just have to realize that it just doesn't make sense. looks  like a mild form of insanity to me, having issues with living in this reality (i mean, sharing it even less than most of us do).
[20:43] <evilvish> coz_: "why" is a great question.. but how can we get the answer out of him?
[20:43] <coz_> evilvish,  I know ,, and that is continually both frustrating and disappointing
[20:43] <evilvish> coz_: i dont think we are allowed to do water-boarding ;p
[20:43] <coz_> lol
[20:43] <coz_> dam  you are evil
[20:43] <coz_> :)
[20:44] <coz_> I am most certainly commited to fine work...in art,, regarless if I can match , with my skills, the level i would expect from others
[20:45] <evilvish> coz_: everytime he is asked the question, his tangential response is why i drew the conclusion he is not of sane mind :)
[20:45] <coz_> I do expect a wider vision ,, an more encompassing understanding,, both of what is expected by "us"  and how others respond to those expectations
[20:45] <coz_> evilvish, l understand for sure
[20:46] <coz_> evilvish,  I am just ,,not sure it is a "empty"  project coming from him..rather ,, I believe there is a hidden agenda ,, or motivation for this
[20:46] <coz_> at the very least.. i hope that is the case
[20:46] <evilvish> coz_: well, whatever it maybe, hidden/awesome/creepy/.. i dont really care.. ;)
[20:46] <coz_> :)
[20:47] <coz_> evilvish,  and again I cant disagree with that too much :)
[20:47] <evilvish> coz_: he is not allowed to use the team name for _his_ and only his own interest..
[20:48] <evilvish> coz_: seriously I dont care, if he succeeds or fails too.. i dont mind either way.. :)
[20:48] <coz_> evilvish,  well see that is part of the puzzlement... is he doing this selfishly?  because it seems to me he is quite the "pied piper"
[20:48] <coz_> evilvish,  in know how you feel, and I am inclined to agree
[20:49] <coz_> evilvish, I was just surprised about the last  mailing list entry he made
[20:49] <evilvish> exactly!
[20:49] <coz_> perhaps I believe he is "more inteligent" than he really is
[20:49] <evilvish> heh..
[20:50] <coz_> evilvish,  i always make an erroneous  assumtion that anyone seriously persuing fine art ,, is inteligent,, believe me I already know the folly in that mindset :)
[20:50] <evilvish> lol!!!
[20:51] <coz_> if those previous links are indeed his work ,, I dont see a serious artist at work
[20:53] <coz_> however we start where we are with what we have,, which is where my mistake comes in,, assuming there is desire to gain higher end knowledge and skills
[20:53] <evilvish> coz_: i think you are over-estimating him.. you seem to assume he has a bigger vision for Ubuntu design.. i believe you are mistaken on that part..
[20:53] <coz_> evilvish,  very well could be and most likely your are correct :)
[20:53] <evilvish> I'm pretty sure, there is no Design vision
[20:54] <coz_> evilvish,  damn you are evil bursting my bubbble like that   lol
[20:55] <coz_> evilvish,  so I bow to the decisions about this particular issue to you and thorwil  and whomever is going to make the final decisions
[20:55] <evilvish> coz_: no need to bow to our decisions.. you can surely state your mind and if possible try to fix john :)
[20:56] <coz_> evilvish,  well I hate fixing people :)  they often resent me for th at
[20:56] <coz_> :)
[20:56] <coz_> evilvish,  i admit to wanting to have a one on one with him
[20:56] <evilvish> coz_: heh, fix the right people who would appreciate your effort ;)
[20:57] <coz_> evilvish,   well i have tried once with john and of course.. as will all of you ,, i was ignored
[20:57] <evilvish> :)
[20:57] <evilvish> coz_: i'm hoping for kwwii to get online soonish..
[20:58] <coz_> cool
[20:58] <coz_> evilvish,  this will make a difference?
[20:58] <evilvish> hmm, not sure.. ;)
[20:58] <coz_> ah ok
[21:19] <coz_>   ok I need to break for supper ,, be back in a bit
[22:43] <coz_> hey agll
[22:43] <coz_>  rather hey all