[00:00] ...yeah [00:00] the schematic is more confusing than it needs to be [00:03] HazRPG: arduino http://tinkerlog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/clone02_l.png [00:04] you can also hack your own one, http://tinkerlog.com/2008/01/07/arduino-on-a-prototype-board/ [00:04] (note lack of usb port lol) [00:04] all these boards are basically the same though [00:05] and the reason for that is the AVR chip is pretty much a whole computer in one chip [00:05] you don't need anything else [00:05] its main function is the a->d and pwm [00:05] all the "clever" stuff about arduino is done in the firmware and the IDE [00:05] What chip do pirates use for hobby electronics? [00:06] it is a little computer, a 4hz computer :D [00:06] actually 4-24mhz [00:06] A V Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr [00:06] lmao [00:06] lol [00:06] avr is the chip in most modchips too [00:07] well, the old ones at least [00:07] they are good chips [00:07] i dunno what they use thesedays [00:07] i hear push through is dead though [00:07] all smt chips soon [00:07] hmm, so best starting point for a newbie like me? [00:07] you mean through hole? [00:07] * HazRPG having looked at everything and thinking they all look very similar [00:08] avr is available in both package types [00:08] arduino is just plug-in and program [00:10] the trouble with arduino is it's all lock-in [00:10] "lock-in"? [00:10] they have their own programming language, their own communication protocol, their own bootloader method [00:10] sure, most of it is open source [00:10] but it just gets in the way [00:11] it depends what you want out of it [00:11] if you want to play with microcontrollers and basic electronics, they are all good [00:13] well I guess since I haven't done much, just getting to grips with it all for starters [00:14] however I would like to move on to making something similar to a HardSID [00:14] or even a CF reader for my C64 [00:14] ali1234: obviously you not used it much, arduino runs c++ [00:14] C++ on a microcontroller ... [00:14] compiled.. [00:15] I was going to say, I thought arduino used c++ [00:15] it's not "real" C++ [00:15] why? [00:15] it's their cut down version of it [00:15] you can import anything you like [00:15] just have 32k to work with [00:15] the full C++ stdlib is about 100000 times too big to fit on an avr flash memory [00:16] exactly [00:16] not to mention that 90% of it is useless for microcontroller programming [00:16] and you dont like it because they excluded that stuff? [00:16] i don't like it because C++ is a bad tool for the job in the first place [00:17] java... :D [00:17] :-o [00:17] ali1234: what is it that cypress uses? [00:17] java on microcontrollers is slightly more sensible as long as you choose one that has hardware support for java [00:17] ali1234: you want assembler? [00:18] you can run just about anything that can compile on them [00:18] HazRPG: all microcontrollers use machine code, it's up to you to choose whatever compiler you want to use (unless you have an arduino, then you are pretty much stuck with their compiler - lock-in) [00:19] ali1234: that is only if you use their boot loader, you can use another/your own etc [00:19] sure. and then you have a generic AVR development board... [00:19] ye [00:19] because the arduino hardware is not special in any way [00:19] which is more fun ;) [00:19] its not [00:20] but its easy for noobs like me and HazRPG :D [00:20] its like runing ubuntu vs compiling linux kernals from source [00:20] not really [00:21] it is like comparing ubuntu with slackware ;) [00:21] it's more like learning to driver in an automatic car [00:21] when you want to drive a manual, you have tolearn all over again [00:21] its can still do most the other things, with some bloat to do the boring stuff [00:21] should have just learned in a manual in the first palce [00:21] ali1234: yeah, but you'll have a knowledge of the electronics that fit round it [00:22] \o/ [00:22] scrap all this programming and just use electronics [00:22] ;) [00:22] ali1234: that is the same as saying if you want to learn how to drive a manual, you have to build the engine first [00:22] believe it or not, you can learn the electronics without any fancy microcontrollers [00:22] its just a bunch of switches [00:23] pretty much :P [00:23] not to mention that the electronics part is almost completely unrelated to programming a mcu [00:23] I made a fuel and pit stop simulator for scalextric, using none programable stuff [00:23] ali1234: If you want to play with mcs, you need some electroics roundit. Something like arduino allows you to actually build something quickly and easily [00:24] its more than enough for beginners projects [00:24] and you can do the analogue to digital with resistors [00:24] er... [00:25] how? ;) [00:26] arduino is the way to learn imo, but it is important to not get lazy and miss basic electronic stuff [00:26] if you want to learn electronics anyway [00:27] using flip-flops is something you should not miss [00:27] ;) [00:29] http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2007/12/aristotle200712. < this is the guy I debating with tomorrow [00:29] Should be fun [00:30] just look at him and say "who the fk are you?" ;) [00:31] "u mad?" [00:31] Lol that is gonna go down well at Oxford Uni lol [00:32] guess Hull Uni was different kinda class... [00:32] ;) [00:32] lol [00:32] Wish I had thought to data mine a profile about him for the debate [00:33] oh btw guys [00:33] Would have been funny to expose his life to the room [00:33] I figured out the problem with my 3rd comp [00:33] vibrations from my bass drum kept causing the gfx card to lose connection [00:34] lol [00:34] didn't really think about it much before [00:35] but it always had problems when I was shaking everything [00:37] hamitron: huh? [00:37] you just sit with a bass drum running all day long? [00:37] it used to just restart on me [00:37] no, only when I am drumming [00:38] but I also have a habbit of tapping my foot to music near my comp too [00:38] hmm, if the arduino doesn't have a proper USB stack... does that mean I couldn't use it as a standalone USB device? [00:38] correct [00:38] unless that USB device happens to be one that works like a serial port [00:39] so you can't use it to make a midi device, keyboard or other HID, usb storage, or anything else that works on usb... [00:40] well that's just pants! [00:40] couldn't you program the outputs/inputs? [00:40] I'm guessing you could add a usb stack board to the arduino... surely... [00:40] no, it doesn't have the right crystal for software USB [00:40] yeah you could add an external USB chip... [00:40] but that will cost more than the arduino board [00:41] and be extremely difficult to work with === tsimpson_ is now known as tsimpson [00:42] ali1234: you know anything off the shelf I could use as a base for a phone type device? [00:43] 300mhz or greater cpu [00:43] "phone type"? [00:43] ali1234: does the cypress come with decent documentation? [00:43] HazRPG: if you like reading TRMs... [00:43] yeh, gsm, gps, display [00:43] hamitron: an N900... [00:44] that is boring [00:44] :/ [00:44] ali1234: I'm guessing I don't, since I haven't a clue what that is :P [00:44] don't mind it been slightly larger, and modular [00:45] hamitron: you get either a phone, or a phone dev board that costs 10x as much and is as big as a PC motherboard [00:46] dev board would mean single for many years [00:46] ;) [00:47] there is/was some open phone project [00:48] but felt like loads of broken links [00:49] hamitron: what is it your trying to do? Build your own mobile? [00:50] sort of [00:50] I don't want a phone as such [00:50] but it would be nice to be portable [00:50] there is a severe lack of good quality open source mobile phone UIs anyway [00:50] if you want to make phone calls with open source software android is basically your only choice at this time [00:51] everything else is either half finished or complete vapourware [00:51] the gsm chips look interesting [00:52] doesn't it have something to do with the fact that its not easy to make a GSM compliant chip at home? Or would I be badly mistaken for thinking that [00:52] the GSM chip I looked at was 60 quid [00:52] "completely impossible" would be closer to the truth [00:52] and that is before I consider anything else to make it usable [00:53] maybe a display off a PSP ;) [00:53] hamitron: you could just rip one out of an old phone? [00:53] hamitron: I've not thrown away a single phone I've ever had... [00:53] I still use my ngage :( [00:54] hamitron: I still own an ngage :P [00:54] siiiiiiiide talkin [00:54] qd is a brick atm [00:54] :( [00:54] really need to try flashing it sometime [00:55] ali1234: I found it more comfortable to use the ngage then most phones [00:55] qd is better [00:55] the only annoying thing was if you wanted to use your two hands for anything [00:55] qd is the best phone ever.... [00:55] ;/ [00:55] apart from the auto bricking feature [00:55] but the qd was basically a regular phone (in terms of how you held it) [00:55] with game controls... [00:56] brighter screen [00:56] and you didn't have to take the thing apart to change game [00:56] ;) [00:56] hamitron: I put all my games into one card :/ [00:56] lol... games... on removable media... [00:56] how quaint [00:56] also... [00:57] normal ngage is too long [00:57] if you wear tight jeans, it can poke you in nasty places [00:57] * HazRPG hates tight jeans [00:57] don't see the point in them [00:58] not skin tight [00:58] but not baggy [00:58] ;/ [00:58] oh [00:58] heh, pocket fail then [00:58] I always make sure the pockets are deep - because my wallets are usually huge [00:58] the ngage was a terrible gaming device. put the rose-tinted glasses away [00:59] plus I like to keep cigs, phone, wallet in my pockets [00:59] last thing you need is an ngage giving you a good poking whilst you are trying to race a car whilst on a motorbike [00:59] directhex: and? ;) [00:59] I liked it as a phone [00:59] and it is better than most phones for gaming [01:00] you have proper gaming buttons [01:00] hamitron: didn't they take the FM radio out of the QD? [01:00] ;/ [01:00] yes [01:00] hamitron: something I use to use a lot [01:00] i take mp3 [01:00] :) [01:00] hamitron: that'll be the other reason I didn't like it then :P [01:00] hamitron: FSVO "proper" [01:00] FSVO? [01:01] for small versions of [01:01] errrr [01:01] what you mean? ;) [01:01] i mean it was a crap game controller [01:02] better than a keypad [01:02] ;/ [01:02] directhex: ... it was a D-Pad, I don't see how that was crap? [01:02] herpes is better than aids, but that doesn't make it desirable [01:03] tbh, there has been no good gaming phone yet [01:03] jsut the ngage is the best so far :/ [01:03] HazRPG: entire encyclopardias have been written on the relative merits of different d-pad implementations. entire industries have sprung up around it. the ngage's was crap [01:03] the qd has better D-pad [01:03] had a seperate select button [01:03] :) [01:04] yay I'm saved from my invalid power supply decision :P [01:04] Azelphur: ? [01:04] my friend has the correct power supply and is selling it to me for £5 :D [01:04] and it's a nice antec one too. [01:04] score :p [01:04] ooh, antec [01:04] if sony weren't such cocks, I'd consider their new gaming phone [01:04] :) [01:05] ohhhhhhhhhh [01:05] i'm not remotely convinced by that either [01:05] maybe I should make a mod for psp [01:05] add gsm.... [01:05] me either... I'm not convinced the "PSPhone" is going to be any good :/ [01:05] i think you should glue a nokia 3210 to a classic gameboy [01:06] ali1234: +1 [01:06] you would then have made the best gaming phone ever [01:06] ali1234: sounds like my theory on camera phones [01:06] honestly? right now, the best gaming phone is the iphone. they haven't badly attempted to glue one form factor into another - instead, developers have been making complete use of the new form factor [01:06] ngage was better than gameboy ;/ [01:06] yup, all cameraphones are terrible [01:06] phone + camera + duct-tape = camera phone winner! [01:07] hamitron: except for the quality of the games, and the d-pad [01:07] I prefer the d-pad on the ngage qd [01:07] :/ [01:07] then you have absolutely terrible taste ^_^ [01:07] quality of games I will give ya [01:08] there's a reason nintendo fiercely guard their d-pad patents, and have left the design pretty much unchanged since the famicom [01:08] but to me, a standard handheld console is useless [01:08] hamitron: you're a special case though [01:08] I want a device as a phone, with some hardcore gaming :) [01:08] guess so [01:09] also must have an open development platform [01:09] the thing is, the use-case for home consoles and portable consoles is different, which is why you don't just put console games on portables [01:09] that's what's killed the PSP [01:09] I hate the whole "cram everything into one device" [01:09] me too HazRPG [01:09] because one part always suffers because of a result of another [01:09] and similarly, the use-case for a handheld console and a mobile phone game is different [01:10] HazRPG: I would personally be willing to side talk on a netbook, if it was a netbook with a phone function :) [01:10] directhex: yep [01:10] the ngage was absolutely terrible because a company with no experience with handheld gaming, nokia, attempted to staple a low-quality chinese knock-off of a gameboy colour into a mobile phone. things like the cartridge slot snafu show just how much lack of thought went into the device [01:10] guess I don't want a phone with games, I want a handheld toy that functions as a phone [01:11] hamitron: sounds like n900 territory? [01:11] yeah [01:11] partly, yes [01:11] :/ [01:11] except for that it has a keyboard that is useless for gaming, and a resistive screen that is also useless for gaming [01:12] if the PSPhone is running android.... [01:12] the iphone has become a serious gaming platform, as far as publishers are concerned. and that burns me up as a hardcore gamer, because the games going onto it are games for mobile phone users. snake, for the HD era. [01:12] it may be an option [01:12] hamitron: it is [01:12] jeff minter is making iphone games now [01:12] he just ported llamatron [01:12] ali1234: good example [01:12] it has hardcore mode [01:12] although jeff's always been a bit weird [01:12] he backed NUON [01:13] * hamitron wants a d-pad [01:13] it HAS to have game controls [01:13] :) [01:13] hamitron: D-Pad for the PC? [01:13] hamitron: so playstation phone for you, then [01:13] directhex: except sony are a-holes? [01:13] HazRPG: sony or bust, if you want a d-pad. [01:14] if sony hadn't put me off getting a PS3, I would probably not be questioning it [01:14] directhex: what do you want as a hardcore gamer? [01:14] directhex: lies, solder + mobile phone + snes controller is all one needs [01:14] I wouldn't have an LG tv in here either [01:14] i mean what's wrong with llamatron? tempest? etc [01:15] ali1234: ultimately, the type of game experience i enjoy isn't one offered by minter. and i say that having spent money on space giraffe. [01:15] it doesn't get much more hardcore than that stuff imo [01:15] directhex: sure... there would be a wire sticking out of your phone... but still, small price to pay. If your going to be gaming on the go, you'll be sat down anyways... [01:16] psp2 could be very interesting [01:16] psp2 is hardcore, but no phone function :/ [01:16] in terms of graphics power at least [01:16] ali1234: right. but ironically enough, that stuff is also highly casual. it's played in short bursts, it's completely ephemeral. it's more *skilled* than Fruit Ninja, but it appeals to the same sensations [01:16] hamitron: psp2 is the phone PSP dude [01:16] HazRPG: nope [01:16] NGP then [01:16] ;/ [01:16] HazRPG: negative [01:16] is it not? [01:16] psp2 is the NGP [01:17] if it had option to make calls, and cost under 300 quid, it would of been mine [01:17] directhex: so... what is it that you do want? [01:18] but I am still sulking with sony, so they can wait 10 years before I buy anything from them again [01:18] the NGP isn't meant to be an iphone replacement, its gonna be for gaming [01:18] ali1234: stories. adventures. experiences that are poorly suited to any mobile platform, really. [01:18] Seeker`: a shame it doesn't ahve basic voice calls though [01:19] PWM is the capability for fans to be automatically controlled by the motherboard right? [01:19] hamitron: not really. I've got a phone for that. [01:19] Seeker`: I can't carry so many devices! [01:19] Azelphur: context? [01:19] lack of pockets :/ [01:19] Seeker`: computer fans [01:19] specifically case ones. [01:19] Azelphur: usually, yes [01:19] seems to me that oldschool graphic adventures could work quite well on mobile [01:19] hamitron: get better clothes [01:20] so now that I understand that part, anyone know a reasonably cheap not crap 120mm fan with PWM? :D [01:20] ali1234: yes. but better with a touchscreen rather than d-pad rubbish. which is why you can get monkey island and broken sword on iphone [01:20] (and scummvm for android and webos) [01:20] ali1234: define "oldschool"? [01:20] Seeker`: 90s golden age of graphic adventures [01:20] Seeker`: anything made before doom [01:21] Seeker`: I like my leathers! [01:21] There isn't much hope of new consoles any time soon, and graphics chips are catching up fast [01:21] ali1234: or after. let's not ignore full throttle plz. [01:22] keys, money, wallet, phone.... all need seperate pockets [01:22] personally, I feel that the whole reason consoles are so popular is the "insert cartridge/disc and play" feature... why doesn't the PC have the same ability (other than the fact that no two hardware is exactly the same) [01:22] nah [01:22] HazRPG: because thats not what PCs are designed for :P [01:23] HazRPG: because it's hard. [01:23] I am surprised the idea of making a game into a live cd hasn't taken off [01:23] with a limited hardware list [01:23] hamitron: bundled with drivers for a billion combinations? [01:23] console games are designed for very specific hardware in very specific conditions [01:23] Seeker`: yeah, but if someone made an "insert game disc" application - it would rock, place in your game and away you go! [01:23] hamitron: pc gaming is already a niche. gotta maximize your market. [01:23] and they are heavily optimized for that hardware [01:24] i remember when PC games were actually different from console games [01:24] now they're all the same [01:24] directhex: I was thinking of an open source console type thing [01:24] :) [01:24] except the console version works better, and the PC version has mods [01:24] ali1234: games cost tens of millions to make. how many units need to ship to break even? [01:25] some games cost tens of millions [01:25] ali1234: i don't blame companies for making cross-platform games, to increase the likelihood of profit [01:25] ali1234: I would disagree, UT3 for the PS3 was sooooo much buggier than the PC version [01:25] * hamitron neither [01:25] I never did get my UT3 linux client! [01:25] :( [01:25] hamitron: yeah, that's disappointing when it's been ported [01:25] the problem is that a lot of cross platform games sit in the ugly middle ground [01:26] ali1234: it takes a little more time & effort to really work the platforms individually for a cross-platform game. dragon age is a good example, the pc version has completely pc-centric controls instead of being a straight port [01:26] ali1234: how so? [01:26] for example, se every cross platform FPS game ever made [01:26] most don't bother. deadlines, etc [01:27] I've lost interest in PC gaming since F1 2010 [01:27] :/ [01:27] i have every platform. i pick & choose where to get my games [01:27] to buy a game and find bugs will be fixed in F1 2011 is annoying [01:27] generally, i favour PC for first person, console for third person [01:27] hamitron: I fail to see that, my sonic games have never been better on my PC :) [01:28] "third person" is now a category of game? [01:28] ali1234: it's distinct enough in how it "feels" [01:28] gears of war is not unreal tournament [01:28] hamitron: especially thanks to my bluetooth dongle and my PS3 controller interacting together with QtSixA [01:28] HazRPG: I feel ripped off [01:29] i remember when not all games were about space marines too [01:29] I paid for F1 2010, not to fund the release of F1 2011 [01:29] ali1234: doom was about space marines! [01:29] ali1234: third person always was a genre... expect they called them "adventure/platform" games [01:29] yeah [01:30] hamitron: heh I can understand that [01:30] directhex: ID software basically "solved" the problem of PC gaming with doom, and 90% of all PC games since are just clones of it [01:31] hamitron: what was wrong with F1 2010? [01:31] ultimately, i have 27 years of gaming history on my shelves, accumulated over the past 22 years. and i really feel rose-tinted glasses are overrated. modern gaming is brilliant. [01:31] Seeker`: a long list of things [01:31] 2011 is a brilliant year to be a gamer. better than 2010, which was better than 2009, etc [01:31] at least doom and quake 1 had a somewhat unique setting, unlike all the following games which just go back to "weird mutant aliens" [01:31] most annoying to me is the pit stop issue [01:32] you know, thing I like about ID software is, most of their software gets released as multiplatform (e.g. works on linux), shame more companies don't do the same [01:32] or even worse, "red space marine vs blue space marine" [01:32] the current console generation has given us completely new and fantastic experiences. dead rising? assassin's creed? you could *never* have done those games on the previous generation of kit [01:32] assassin's creed is completely boring [01:32] it's GTA without cars [01:33] no cars! :( [01:33] there is the odd horse and carriage, but i don't think you can steal them [01:33] shoot the horses? [01:33] not in AC1 [01:33] AC1 was really a tech demo [01:33] well that's the only one i played [01:33] i heard 2 was just more of the same [01:34] AC2 addressed every major criticism against the game [01:34] first versions should NOT be a tech demo :/ [01:34] hamitron: why not? [01:34] Is'nt that what crysis was? [01:34] hamitron: less priase for iD then. quake 3 was totally a sales pitch for the engine ;) [01:34] OR Portal [01:34] and Portal was a damn cool game [01:34] portal was actually good [01:34] AC to me felt like I was playing Prince of Persia... except in 3D... with extra gimmicks [01:35] if you buy a game, it shouldn't be half assed [01:35] only about 20% as good as any random zelda game though === PalaPad_ is now known as PalaPad [01:35] hamitron: they already did PoP in 3d. with the critically acclaimed Sands of Time [01:35] the jewel of the last generation [01:35] I've just started playing AC1 this evening, and I quite like it [01:35] ali1234: zelda as a franchise is tired [01:36]