[02:59] Aye. Pendulum === API is now known as Guest74755 === Guest74755 is now known as apinheiro === apinheiro is now known as apinheiro_lunch === apinheiro_lunch is now known as apinheiro [19:50] hi all [20:48] TheMuso: are you around? [20:48] Pendulum: Yep I am now. [21:00] okay meeting time! [21:00] #startmeeting [21:00] Meeting started Wed Mar 16 21:00:16 2011 UTC. The chair is Pendulum. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell. [21:00] Useful Commands: #topic #action #link #idea #voters #vote #chair #action #agreed #help #info #endmeeting. [21:00] who's here for the meeting? [21:00] here [21:01] * Pendulum pokes at charlie-tca AlanBell hajour TheMuso maco [21:03] Hello [21:03] this could be a very short meeting [21:03] (since we have very few people) [21:03] * TheMuso is. [21:04] * TheMuso notes he is somewhat late with his blog entry for this week... I'll do my best to get it finished ASAP. [21:04] CensoredBiscuit: you around for the meeting? (no worries if you aren't) [21:04] hi [21:04] okay, agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda [21:05] #topic Natty Testing [21:05] TOPIC: Natty Testing [21:05] charlie-tca: what's the status on the testing you're doing? what can we help with? [21:06] We don't have usable images again. Hopefully, tomorrow, we get an image that works again. [21:06] Have not had a good image in a week now [21:06] Yeah there is a lot of upheaval atm. [21:07] Can't tell if the install works or fails, since I haven't been able to install since alpha3 released [21:08] It would be great to have two or three or more run installs, when we get it working again [21:08] We need someone to test dasher and screen magnifier, too, when we can get things working [21:08] * Cheri703 can do that if the process for testing is well explained [21:09] charlie-tca: that was my next question :) [21:09] TheMuso: what's the status of the accessibility features making it in? [21:09] http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Install/DesktopAccessibility [21:10] Pendulum: Well things are still broken. They will likely be fixed by natty final, but I dare say they will lack polish. For this reason, myself and a couple of Desktop tea members are considering setting the default desktop session to GNOME for one or more accessibility profiles. [21:10] But unity will be there for people to try should they choose to do so. [21:10] *nods* I saw some discussion of that, just wasn't sure how 'official' it was [21:11] that would be great, since it is close to impossible to use unity without full keyboard and mouse [21:11] o/ [21:11] just got in [21:12] I find unity very hard to use, myself. It is not intuitive, there are no menus, and you have to search all over to find anything [21:12] charlie-tca: You are aware that all icons on the launcher have a quicklist/context menu? [21:13] no [21:13] where the hell is all this information? [21:13] We can't even have the shortcuts list on the wiki any more. It is only found on askubuntu.com, if you know where to look for it. [21:14] I find that a LOT of information is fragmented, it takes a lot of new searches to find things [21:14] charlie-tca: why no shortcuts list on the wiki? [21:14] apparently, if you complain long enough, someone finally tells you [21:15] jcastro moved the shortcuts to askubuntu.com [21:15] moved, not copied? how silly [21:15] he did [21:15] did you try asking him to have it in both spots? [21:15] and, you can't easily add to them now, since the language used is not conventional markup for the wiki [21:15] he got massively frustrated with the slowness of the wiki [21:15] maco: they're trying to consolidate a lot of things to askubuntu rather than the wiki :-/ [21:16] ew [21:16] the can be added back to the wiki, but they wanted one place to maintain them [21:16] The problem is finding the stuff over there [21:16] and then editing it to add anything [21:16] there is a pointer on the page over to the askubuntu place [21:16] that's a tech support site, not a brain-dump site! [21:16] *sigh* [21:16] I agree [21:16] I *have* been trying hard to address the issue of the wiki [21:16] * TheMuso agrees with all thats been said. [21:16] maco: there was a UDS session about it in Orlando, unfortunately it was the last slot on the last day so I think a lot of people were too tired [21:16] I, for one, can not add a shortcut now. I can't really remember the right syntax [21:17] Pendulum: and it was approved as a supplement to launchpad answers, not as a wiki replacement [21:17] I think if we can, we should stick it back on the wiki under /Accessibility and if we have to assign a person to update based on when things are added on askubuntu, that's what we do [21:18] it's a PITA to do it that way, but I agree with all the issues about askubuntu [21:19] (I personally don't touch askubuntu if I don't have to) [21:19] Yes, we can do that. It really should be under the help wiki, though [21:19] personally I would be inclined to leave it there until release and then put it on the wiki [21:19] AlanBell: that could work too [21:19] um, I don't see many changes happening to it over there, actually. [21:19] it is over there so jcastro can maintain it better [21:19] I think he will [21:19] have we ever figured out if askubuntu is screen-reader friendly? [21:20] it is the tool he likes to use [21:20] people will add to it if it is on the wiki [21:20] as I recall, it is not [21:20] there have been discussions about stackexchange and screen readers, there are blind people who use it [21:20] I've seen things saying both ways. but no idea how long ago anyone last checked [21:23] TheMuso: charlie-tca AlanBell, are any of you willing to check to see if askubuntu.com can be read using a screen reader? [21:23] yes [21:23] Yeah I can. [21:24] I can test with orca, but I don't know about specialised web page readers [21:24] I can look at the RSS feed [21:24] http://askubuntu.com/questions/28086/keyboard-shortcuts-in-unity/28087#28087 [21:25] is a good page to try [21:25] can I just assign the 3 of you to look into it and get back to to us by the next meeting? [21:25] * charlie-tca nods [21:25] yup [21:26] I'm looking at askubuntu with orca too [21:26] Seems fine with Orca and firefox in natty. [21:26] looks okay thus far [21:27] Yeah [21:27] okay, so maybe not a concern :D [21:27] (and now not an action item either!) [21:28] okay, since we kinda started talking about development as well, TheMuso is there anything you want to add about what's going on with development? [21:29] Nothing else to add, I covered what I wanted to say earlier re testing. However in that time I have reda some email, adn more accessibility stuff is likely to land this week, so with a bit of luck, we will have a somewhat accessible unity, so the decision to keep the default session to classic GNOME will be held off till next week. [21:29] great [21:29] charlie-tca: anything else regarding testing? [21:30] no, just hope we can get some testing in soon [21:30] great, moving on [21:30] sorry, been away for a while, may I ask if the installer is likely to be accessible [21:30] yes, it is. [21:31] great, thanks [21:31] THere has been a bit of work towards addressing that, and yes, things are much better now, but still not perfect, but thats due to webkit support still not being 100% complete. [21:31] :) [21:31] #topic Blog Volunteers [21:31] TOPIC: Blog Volunteers [21:31] * Pendulum waits for the groans [21:31] we were not so good at getting posts out this month [21:32] again? [21:32] * Cheri703 apologizes for slacking off the interviews...wasn't sure where to start. [21:32] I can step up and do that [21:32] this is partially my fault for not poking people [21:32] * AlanBell is getting close to posting the next persona [21:32] I think we got maybe 1/2 of them up [21:32] * charlie-tca is trying to write another post on testing [21:32] I'm not overly worried, just think we should try to continue to do better! [21:33] so we really have 5 weeks we need to schedule in this time [21:33] Agreed. As I said earlier, mine is not finished, but hopefully will be by the end of the week. [21:34] for those of you who are unaware, we now have a blog at http://ubuntuaccessibility.wordpress.com/ [21:34] and we're trying to get at least one post up on it a week [21:34] they can be about anything accessibility related [21:34] well, accessibility and Ubuntu/computing related [21:34] does that go through planet ubuntu? I seem to recall seeing at least some of those [21:34] yes [21:35] I'd like to volunteer next week to write something about accessibility at UDS [21:35] does anyone have a problem with that? [21:35] ounds good. [21:36] sounds [21:36] great! [21:36] #action Pendulum to write post on UDS accessibility for week of March 21st [21:36] ACTION: Pendulum to write post on UDS accessibility for week of March 21st [21:36] so who is interested in writing for the week after that? you don't need an actual topic in mind right now [21:38] well put me down for the persona asap [21:38] We will be testing beta1 the week of march 27 [21:38] I don't have an account on the access blog, but I'd like to write about KDE and accessability at some point [21:38] the kubuntu angle [21:38] we can set up additional accounts [21:38] heh, I just send mine to Pendulum [21:38] either way works [21:38] ok, I can do it that way too [21:39] I'm on the KDE accessability list and channel [21:39] AlanBell: do you want to do the persona the week after next? [21:39] * TheMuso is too. [21:39] there is work being done, and they are interfacing with Canonical I believe [21:40] yeah, sure [21:40] * Pendulum really should join that channel [21:40] #action AlanBell to blog about the next persona week of March 28th [21:40] ACTION: AlanBell to blog about the next persona week of March 28th [21:40] what is the best timing? [21:40] now, or later [21:40] charlie-tca: what's good timing for your next testing blog post? [21:41] I can take the week of April 4 [21:41] i guess [21:41] ok [21:41] valorie: do you want to do the week after that? [21:41] so second week of April? [21:41] #action charlie-tca to blog about testing for week of April 4th [21:41] ACTION: charlie-tca to blog about testing for week of April 4th [21:41] valorie: yeah, the one starting the 11th [21:42] sounds good [21:42] #action valorie to blog about KDE accessibility for week of April 11th [21:42] ACTION: valorie to blog about KDE accessibility for week of April 11th [21:42] I'll try to get it done before, and let you release it [21:42] Cheri703: do you think you'd manage to get an interview done for the week of April 20th? [21:43] sure [21:44] #action Cheri703 to do first interview for week of April 20th [21:44] ACTION: Cheri703 to do first interview for week of April 20th [21:44] and that's all the posts we need to schedule for now! [21:44] if anyone else wants to post anything between now and then feel free to either send it to AlanBell or myself or poke us and we can give you access to the blog [21:44] all I want to try to avoid is 2 posts in the same day [21:45] past that, I have no problem with lots of posts :) [21:45] so now that's done [21:45] \o/ [21:46] #topic Next Persona [21:46] TOPIC: Next Persona [21:46] AlanBell: this is all you :P [21:46] oooo, I could submit the post to dotKDE too [21:46] :-) [21:46] giving us all kinds of coverage [21:46] so the next persona is Daniela [21:46] http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/daniela [21:46] I am working on the text at the bottom of the page [21:47] there are a bunch of notes above [21:47] she is totally blind [21:47] one thing worth mentioning is the bit at the bottom: [21:47] If you are going to UDS in Budapest then arrange a visit with a bunch of folk to the Invisible Exhibition http://www.lathatatlan.hu/en/ you will be given a white cane and led into an area of total darkness where your guide (who is blind) will take you on a tour of the exhibition. On Thursday they do a dinner in the dark followed by an invisible party! If you are interested in this please add a comment to this blog post. [21:48] I think it would be great to drum up some interest for an evening out at that [21:48] I am so in for that! [21:48] however they are not able to accomodate wheelchairs [21:48] I want to go [21:48] I was unable to pursuade them to budge on that [21:49] I'm unsurprised that they can't accommodate wheelchairs, although a bit sad. [21:49] TheMuso: it would be great to get the blind chap from linaro along to that too [21:49] AlanBell: Aye. [21:49] (even if the space was physically accessible, I can think of a lot of reasons why it's not practical) [21:50] yeah, I asked if it was possible to skip the exhibition bit and just get a chair into the dinner area, but no [21:50] :( [21:50] Thats somewhat disheartening. [21:51] however, disapointing as that is, I think it would be good to get as many people along to it as possible [21:51] tbh, I expect that if I get sponsored to Budapest that it will be hard, and maybe impossible for me to get places outside the hotel. I'm resigned to it. I'll cope :) [21:52] anyway, AlanBell is tehre stuff people can help with? [21:52] AlanBell: I agree. [21:53] people can dive in and edit text on the pad, maybe I will shout a few times in here for people to help review bits and work together on bits [21:54] sounds good! [21:54] anything else with personas? [21:54] not right now [21:55] great [21:56] we're hitting close to an hour now. Do people want to go over the blueprint now or should we wait until either next month? (or if we want to do something sooner, we could hold a meeting just to go over the blueprint in 2 weeks or something) [21:56] the only reason I'm suggesting a special meeting sooner than next month is next month's meeting is the week before Natty releases [21:56] A meeting just for the blueprint is a better idea, given where things are at. [21:56] sorry just have read back [21:56] (and I'm getting a little tired which is why I'd rather not go more than an hour if possible) [21:57] I agree with the separate blueprint meeting [21:57] separate meeting is fine, keeps up the momentum [21:58] thank you for inviting me to this meeting [21:58] I'll try to attend regularly from now on [21:58] valorie: You're welcome at any time. [21:58] valorie: you're welcome to hang out in the channel. We don't discrimminate [21:58] :) [21:58] shorter and more frequent sounds good [21:58] there are even *gasp* non-disabled here all the time ;-) [21:58] btw i can let know now how it is to use when you are blind i just open the curtains and dont put sunglasses on.and i will see nothing at all [21:58] hehe [21:59] okay [21:59] so we'll move the blue print to a separate meeting [22:00] #topic Any Other Business [22:00] TOPIC: Any Other Business [22:00] anyone have anything else they'd like to bring up? [22:00] lost my note when i hasd to finish the blog for the accessibility site [22:00] oh, no [22:00] hajour: whenever you get it done is fine [22:01] ok [22:02] anything else? [22:02] is there still help needed for some things tested for blind ? [22:03] okay, it sounds like the meeting stuff is done [22:03] #endmeeting [22:03] Meeting ended Wed Mar 16 22:03:09 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell . (v 0.1.4) [22:03] Minutes: http://mootbot.libertus.co.uk/ubuntu-accessibility/2011/ubuntu-accessibility.2011-03-16-21.00.moin.txt [22:03] thank you everyone! [22:03] thanks Pendulum [22:03] hajour: talk to charlie-tca about testing [22:03] i think UndiFineD will get time to help.he just heard he will have to leave his job [22:03] hajour: yes, we need help [22:04] he heard today he will be fired from next fryday [22:04] We need to try the screen-reader installations, as much as we can, to get it working good [22:04] Sorry to hear that. [22:04] oh, does 2 weeks from now at the same time work for people? [22:04] ok [22:04] Pendulum: does for me [22:04] yeah [22:04] it will be after the change to daylight savings for the UK folks [22:04] ok Pendulum [22:05] * charlie-tca nods at Pendulum [22:05] (I don't know about for TheMuso or hajour ) [22:05] so might be an hour later for people in a country where the clocks change [22:05] right [22:05] or an hour earlier in the southern hemisphere perhaps? [22:05] i need some help asking sponsering only i wonder if i still am needed .or speechcontrol then still lives [22:06] Pendulum: If I know what it is in UTC< I can workit out from there. [22:06] bad things never come alone [22:06] TheMuso: the 21:00 UTC time [22:06] UndiFineD: sorry to hear about the job [22:07] UndiFineD: :( about your job [22:07] UndiFineD, was very tired from all of this and is now sleeping [22:07] Pendulum: Should be doable. [22:07] hajour: yes, you can still do a sponsorship application [22:07] Pendulum: what is the actual date, March 30? [22:08] yes [22:08] but whaat can i offer them to UDS i mean [22:08] okay, kick me for it, then [22:08] -a [22:08] hajour: accessibility discussions [22:08] ok [22:08] just have to figure out what in particular you want to get involved in [22:09] i was /am where i want to be involved in [22:09] hajour: have a look at the schedule of the last one http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-n/ [22:09] click monday through to friday and look at the session titles [22:09] UndiFineD, had put me already on the list [22:10] make a list of the ones you would have liked to attend [22:10] that will guide what goes on the application form [22:10] ok [22:11] thank you AlanBell [22:11] when you have done that list (and decided that you really want to spend the time and effort to go) then lets put together your form [22:13] anyone know how a team go upstream to look where i have mist things.maybe i can still save speechcontrol [22:15] * hajour is kinda desperate [22:16] hajour: what's wrong? [22:17] speechcontrol is pushed upstream without a warning up front.to short for it happened we where warned [22:18] i never had before a team not before speechcontrol [22:18] hajour: I'm not sure how moving upstream changes your development at all? [22:18] also my first contact with irc is been here [22:19] for the channels are made and official it cost 6 weeks [22:19] what do you mean by "pushed upstream" ? [22:19] it is a long and confusing story JanC [22:19] a new wiki whas /is needed [22:20] I don't think pushed upstream is the best terminology, but I don't have time right now to go through it [22:20] but mail from launchpad had not reached all devs [22:20] hajour: I think a lot of the original goals of that project would make a great session to discuss at UDS [22:20] actually, there are upstream projects that use the Ubuntu wiki. maco's project Gally is an example [22:20] channels where go broken from ubuntu-speechcontrol before we had all devs in by the new channels [22:20] and fold into the actual Ubuntu project management methodology [22:21] i wanted not go upstream but stay here [22:21] I wouldn't necessarily recommend it long-term if you want other distros to use it, but it's not unheard of [22:22] i not able to do this allone [22:22] you don't have to [22:22] i need help to get a clear site again from all about speechcontrol [22:23] anyhow it is getting late here [22:23] I think it's a good thing if speechconrol works for all distros? [22:23] speechcontrol is not yet a "thing" [22:24] it's a project bundling several "things" [22:24] ever heard about a adhd er who whas good in planning?specially when things are suddenly dropt on them? [22:24] its already done upstream but not good [22:24] it has to made good [22:25] ok AlanBell good night [22:25] hajour: what do you mean by "mail from launchpad had not reached all devs" ? [22:26] for to make clear this is a emergency call [22:26] some devs we have picked up again in ubuntu-beginners-team .they asked where the channels where [22:27] the channel disappeared? [22:27] we heard they had not get the mail where was standing in that we moved to other channels [22:27] why not set a forward on the old channels? [22:27] because we where go upstream we had to move to channels whitout ubuntu in the name [22:27] Freenode has all those fancy features to do such things... [22:27] we have done [22:28] but some where on vacation [22:28] after a few weeks the channels where broken the old 1 s [22:29] and a few where just moving to other house because of change jobs [22:29] JanC: can't really forward the #ubuntu?? channel to a non-ubuntu channel [22:29] we just where making some progress with speechcontrol [22:30] i dont know charlie-tca we have put it in i not remember or it worked [22:30] so much was happening last month [22:31] charlie-tca: well, technically it's possible I suppose, but probably would require a Freenode staffer for permissions? in any case, a simple topic + channel message could give the necessary information too? [22:31] btw not only speechcontrol have this problems also wintermute [22:32] um, it requires Ubuntu channel permission, since the #ubuntu?? channels are controlled by ubuntui [22:32] s/ubuntui/ubuntu [22:32] people feel like ubt have leave them not only me [22:32] an "ubuntu irc staffer" then ;) [22:34] the 2 teams have no experience with things like this at all [22:34] so simple said help plz ? [22:37] its so much i not know anymore where to start [22:37] well, what help do you need? [22:38] so you see i am not so good what everyone every time says [22:38] first i need help to make a good planning to get a good view again [22:38] what is still needed and what is done [22:39] maybe make a list on paper (or in tomboy notes, or whatever) ? [22:39] and after that how can i reach the other devs [22:40] it seems like #ubuntu-speechcontrol already forwards to #speechcontrol ? [22:40] JanC, have you experience with people who have adhd/add ? just wondering [22:40] yes [22:41] 4 channels we have all am i not knowing why so many someone made them for me [22:41] hajour: not much experience, so if I say stupid things feel free to tell me ;-) [22:42] #speechcontrol #speechcontrol-devel #speechcontrol-offtopic speechcontrol-inferno [22:42] #speechcontrol-inferno i mean [22:43] so, if IRC redirects are okay, what else is needed? [22:43] i not know or the wiki is finished [22:44] i was not able to come on it [22:44] somebody is hosting a new site/wiki ? [22:44] so i have not seen it [22:44] yes it was needed?they said [22:45] also had to do with ubuntu name in it [22:45] well, you can use the ubuntu wiki until that is ready [22:45] I understand they don't want to stay on the ubuntu wiki forever, but no need to drop it before the new one is ready... [22:45] i not know or that wan is still up to date [22:46] one i mean [22:48] JanC, if you want all will come in by me the info.and stay in it need to be short as possible explain.strict to the point [22:50] jacky is also by youth often helping so i don't know when he will respond JanC [22:51] hajour: I think the changes just need some time because most people also have other things to do (jobs, school, etc.) [22:51] yes i know [22:51] but i need to know things before not suddenly.if it is drop suddenly my mind blocks [22:52] like a door is closed advance and they key is missing [22:52] -y [22:53] hajour: many people don't like sudden changes, but it's much worse for you I suppose [22:53] and then i loose view over all things [22:53] not only on speechcontrol but also in my home [22:54] and then things will lay and come more things [22:54] till it is very much [22:54] hajour: thats' why I suggest keeping a list about this somewhere--and maybe everybody on the team should help with that [22:54] and then i not know anymore where to begin [22:55] a list of what needs done, who will do it, and what's already done [22:55] but then i need the devs will come to tell what is done [22:55] exactly ☺ [22:55] and still needed [22:56] but half of devs we not have seen for weeks [22:56] from the moment we where go upstream [22:56] hajour: if they want to make software for people with disabilities, they should at least try to understand why you need it [22:57] yes but i not know how to explain to them to not send me long story's [22:57] i drawn in that [22:57] and will not be able to see what is in it [22:58] again, most people have difficulty reading long stories, it's just worse for you [22:58] and then i feel so powerless [22:59] so by keeping things short and to the point, they help everybody ☺ [22:59] yes [23:00] http://www.techworld.com.au/article/379869/google_apps_slammed_by_advocacy_group_blind/ [23:01] its still loading charlie-tca [23:01] it is slow to load. [23:01] charlie-tca: I've been slamming Google Apps for years, they fail for everybody, not only for the blind ;-) [23:02] It is about the United States. but the article comes from Australia [23:02] i just need to get the start help .the push in the right direction by way of speaking [23:02] Hopefully, National Federation for the Blind has enough push to do something [23:02] specially by new things [23:04] i was to hospital today with one of my kids and i forgot to take my dark glasses with me.in my home curtains are mostly closed.or such a way its not bright light [23:04] so first it was still not yet full light [23:04] i not mean sun [23:04] but then daylight came [23:05] and i was not able to see anything anymore almost [23:05] so my 11 year old daughter have guide me instead of me guiding her. [23:06] and i felt so stupid to forget something important like that [23:06] charlie-tca: I tried to use gmail for some time, but it's so full of bugs (including standards-violating bugs) that Outlook suddenly starts to look good--so I'm not surprised it's bad at a11y too... [23:11] JanC: I have always been skeptical of web apps. At least Google apps can be accessed by dedicated clients on various platforms. [23:13] TheMuso: yeah, even if they have (or had?) some bugs/flaws in their protocol implementations === zkriesse_ is now known as zkriesse [23:17] pff i have make a screenshot to help and know i cant find it [23:17] now [23:19]