jjessewell hello greg-g00:38
greg-ghi there, I'm actually smiling because I guilt tripped DBO to rejoin the channel ;)00:38
greg-gman, jcastro is really a great cheer leader00:41
greg-g(for context, see #ubuntu-meeting)00:41
jcastrohe's like 4 years late00:41
greg-gI know dude, we're gonna vote soon, nhandler is just at dinner, and he has control of the bot :/00:42
jjessemeeting going on?00:42
brouschvoting whether to become #debian-us-mi or #gentoo-us-mi?00:44
jjessefor DBO00:44
greg-gbrousch: :P00:45
* DBO just glad I didn't code through a second one of these00:46
DBOmultitouch is sooo interesting00:46
greg-g(he's a member now)00:49
DBOwhat happens if a vote goes 50/50?00:51
greg-gyou know, I don't know, we usually try to have an odd number of people voting, but that doesn't always happen00:53
greg-gand, we've never had that kind of split00:53
DBOi hope the answer involves a Rancor00:54
DBOI considered attempting to get sabdfl to write a testimonial... just to see if he would00:55
jrwreni vote no.00:55
greg-ghaha, that'd be awesome00:57
DBOdoes wmich.edu still run a mirror I wonder...00:57
rick_h_snap-l: your twitter name is too long01:26
rick_h_too hard to fit it :P01:26
brouschtoo long and too hard?01:36
brouschi got flask running on google app engine. it's much, much smaller than django with non-rel patch01:41
brouschlike 200 files compared to 200001:42
jjessedo sportscasters actually listen to what they say?01:42
jjesseone just said "that was a big squirt"01:42
brouschtook 4 seconds to be ready to serve compared to 2 minutes01:43
rick_h_brousch: yea, flash is great for that small kind of stuff01:48
Blazeixlet it be known that rick_h_ encourages people to use flash.01:49
snap-lrick_h_: Sorry, but blame Twitter fr not allowing me to use my old account01:59
jjesseapparently im supposed to thank craig for his awesome editing02:18
snap-ljjesse: You're welcome. :)02:20
rick_h_Blazeix: not sure on the replacement03:43
rick_h_I know the definition is "tags separated with spaces"03:43
rick_h_so yea, it breaks up spaces right now03:43
rick_h_I've not looked at catching "some tag" and such yet03:44
Blazeixok. for now the google bookmark importer replaces spaces with hyphens, just to match the end result of the delicious importer.03:52
rick_h_yea, caught that. It different since delicious puts all the tags into a tag="this tag list"03:53
rick_h_so I can't tell they're separate, but google bookmarks does the repitition stuff you can catch03:53
rick_h_works for me for now though03:53
rick_h_tests pass :)03:54
Blazeixdelicious comma-separates them, i think03:55
Blazeixright, ship it!03:56
tjagodaUbuntu server question11:29
tjagodaI want to chart system resource usage over time11:29
tjagodaI would assume there is already a package for this?11:29
rick_h_tjagoda: yea, you're looking at something like cacti http://www.cacti.net/ or munin11:47
tjagodanm, I just added a crontab to output the uptime command into a logfile11:48
tjagodaI dont need anything crazy11:51
tjagodaJust want to see the load over 24 hours or so11:51
brouschtjagoda: did you find the mythical code-free custom business webapp creator?11:56
tjagodaYou all misunderstood me11:58
tjagodaI resolved to write it in PERL11:58
tjagodaI was wondering if there were any frameworks which would make my life easier in not having to code everything from the ground up11:58
brouscha perl framework?11:59
tjagodaI resolved to write it in PERL post-looking for frameworks11:59
brouschwhy do you hate yourself so much?12:00
tjagodaWhy would anyone not want to code with a chainsaw?12:00
brouschbecause its easy to cut off your own leg12:00
brouschand no one wants to help a chainsaw-wielding madman12:01
tjagodaMy business application will be a temple to Larry Wall12:02
tjagodaI wonder how I can figure out disk throughput on ubuntu server12:03
* tjagoda googles more12:03
rick_h_so I've got some Pycon t-shirts, stickers, and IDE discount codes for people at the next CHC12:07
rick_h_don't let me forget12:07
brouschide discounts?12:09
brouschrick_h_: you mean like pycharm?12:11
rick_h_I've got wingide and komodo12:14
rick_h_I don't think I grabbed the pycharm one12:14
rick_h_they were there with discounts, but don't think it was in the goody bag12:15
brouschi use komodo's free version often12:15
brouschthe paid version adds debugging, woohoo12:16
rick_h_$50 off komodo software thorgh 3/3112:16
rick_h_and 50% off wingide professional12:16
brouschnever tried that one12:16
rick_h_it's one of the best for python12:16
rick_h_much better than komodo12:16
brouschkomodo is nice for webapps because it understands css and html12:16
brouschi think it even does django templates now12:17
brouschdid you feel dirty picking up those discounts?12:18
brouschlooks like wing does django templates too12:18
rick_h_no, I'm not using them12:19
rick_h_but figured give-aways with the group is good stuff12:19
snap-lrick_h_: You get home OK last night?12:43
rick_h_just made the waiting list for the next flight 2hrs later12:44
snap-lThat was my biggest fear whenI was flying.12:45
rick_h_yea, it was a big newbie mistake12:45
snap-lWell, second biggest. First biggest was being detained by TSA for having more than 3oz of fluid12:45
rick_h_for some reason I had the time on the ticket as boarding time, and they moved the gate on me, etc12:45
snap-lBanshee is going to have DVD support?12:46
snap-lThey're working hard to be Windows Media Center, aren't they?12:47
brouschi'm watching the IDE shootout panel from pycon 2011. pycharm looks really nice13:15
rick_h_brousch: yea, it's the new kid on the block and supposedly is nice and updating fast13:15
brouschi was supposed to try it in feb and never got to it13:16
brouschalso, it's frickin awesome that thse videos are up already13:17
rick_h_yea, they had them up in the middle of the conference13:17
rick_h_by day 2, day one videos were going up, just crazy13:17
brouschi found 5 i need to watch13:18
brouschwas it the same group of video people as at pyohio?13:18
rick_h_you should find more than that13:18
rick_h_yea, same group13:18
rick_h_PSF pays them I think13:18
brouschdamn, wing looks good too. maybe there's something to non-free ides13:22
rick_h_I was a big fan of wing13:23
rick_h_I just got cranky because I did php by day13:23
rick_h_python by night13:23
rick_h_and was using Zend studio for php, wing for python and tired of two editors13:23
brouschheh, emacs is in the shootout, but no vim13:24
rick_h_yea, I was in another talk :(13:24
rick_h_or else I would have represented13:24
rick_h_first conference in a while I didn't do an vim openspace13:25
brouschso were you demoing awesome in the hall?13:25
rick_h_heh no, but ran into a few fellow users13:25
brouschthe qtile guy mentioned seeing someone demoing awesome in the hall and so decided to do his lightening talk13:25
rick_h_heh, wasn't me13:26
brouschemacs guy is running ubuntu on mbp13:29
brouschyou would have blown them all away13:31
jrwrentjagoda: i didn't know you were looking for perl frameworks. I'll look up the name of the one that I would use.13:53
jrwrentjagoda: your question was "what language would ya'll use..." wasn't it?13:54
tjagodaI originally asked for a good framework in general, afterwards deciding that I wanted to use a chainsaw (read: perl)13:55
jrwrenoh, chainsaw. cool.13:59
rick_h_python, stdlib ftw13:59
jrwrenwhat specifically?14:22
rick_h_just if you're trying to do system stuff there's a ton of tools that's OS specific/etc14:23
rick_h_and it's not extra packages14:23
jrwrenoh yeah, definitely.14:23
rick_h_so for a framework, fewer extra deps ftw14:23
jrwrenperl has the same great system stuff14:23
snap-lPerl is quite rich when it comes to built-in foo14:24
rick_h_counting cpan as 'built in'?14:24
snap-lNo, not counting cpan14:24
jrwrenalthough last time I used perl, sets were external had to get from cpan, where python sets are NICE14:24
rick_h_gotcha, k14:24
snap-ljrwren: Python has had the benefit of a more visible and active development process in the past few years14:25
snap-land it looks like more stuff is getting backported from 3 to 214:25
jrwrens/few years/decade/14:25
snap-ljrwren: now now...14:25
snap-lI'm sure 5.14 is just lovely. ;)14:25
jrwrenthere is a 5.14?14:26
snap-liirc, there is14:26
jrwrenthere is a 5.12 ?14:26
snap-land a 5.10, 5.814:26
jrwrenyes, those I've used.14:26
jrwreni've not used 5.12 or 5.1414:26
jrwrenperl -V on mavrick says 5.10 :)14:26
snap-lYeah, not many folks have adopted 5.1214:27
snap-lI mean, it's not as sexy as the releast of Python that included sets, and other from __future__ import goodness...14:28
snap-lbut there's still a pulse.14:28
snap-lhell, I'm sure someone was waiting for Carp to get an upgrade.14:28
rick_h_you can upgrade fish?14:29
snap-lI can slap you with one.14:30
snap-lI managed to pick up a booklinght on steroids last night from Staples for 11.5014:31
snap-lIt's a desk lamp with at least 16 LEDs in it14:32
snap-l6x6, so 36 (hadn't looked under there until now. :) )14:32
jrwrenoooh.. Carp...14:33
snap-lNice and cool as well, though the directions tell you not to put it next to anything flammable.14:33
jrwreni only remember the name and I can't remember wht Carp actually is.14:33
snap-lerror handling14:34
_stink_snap-l: "put it next to" or "point it at"?14:34
snap-l_stink_: keep away from materials that burn14:34
_stink_i was hoping it was a firebeam.14:36
rick_h_anyone want to do me a favor a deface a site?14:37
rick_h_I'll give you the keys14:37
snap-lonly if I have indemnity14:37
rick_h_depressing that I'm sitting here doing horrible security things because I'm told to "the client wants it to be easier"14:37
snap-ltoo risky14:37
snap-lCould post it to full disclosure14:38
brouschthis is why wikileaks was created14:38
snap-lI'm sure someone would bork it for you14:38
rick_h_heh, no I don't want anonymous involved. Just want one small lesson.14:38
* rick_h_ hangs head in shame14:38
snap-lWhat are they having you do?14:39
* rick_h_ is resetting passwords from random generated 6 char to 4 digits14:40
rick_h_and the 4 digits are in the usernames14:40
rick_h_yea, these guys are my heros14:40
rick_h_and it's an app that's on the public internet not limited to an intranet14:40
snap-lAlmost as good as the site that I was maintaining that would send you one of 6 passwords if you forgot it14:40
rick_h_so I've raised hell for the last several months as the project went along14:40
snap-lreally secure14:41
rick_h_and I finally got overruled14:41
snap-lHey, you just made some rainbow tabler's life that much easier. ;)14:41
BlazeixI have a client with admin privileges to her public website, and she refused to change her password.14:41
Blazeixher password is her username.14:42
rick_h_and not only that, but the digits are matched to store #'s so if you worked/knew anything you could guess14:42
rick_h_so not even random 4 digits14:42
snap-lrick_h_: You could send the interested parties the hack that happened to gawker media14:42
rick_h_my boss saw that, sent him all that info14:43
snap-lsomeone gets a bug up their butt about your site, you're going down if you don't have good security.14:43
rick_h_he was my lat hope14:43
snap-land he overruled?14:43
rick_h_end of the day it sounds like one of those "client pays the bills, give what they want"14:43
snap-lCould put a little note in the password e-mail: Here is your ridiculously simple and easy to remember password. Hope your admin made backups".14:44
brouschuntil they blame you when they get defaced14:44
rick_h_well, I pushed that we make them sign something that says we're not responsible and will not correct the data if defaced14:45
rick_h_they've not written/signed this, but discussed it14:45
snap-lrick_h_: You've done your job then14:45
rick_h_yea, I know...still depressing as hell to run these commands14:46
snap-land hopefully your company will be smart and follow through14:46
brouschi assume your objections have all been documented14:47
rick_h_yea, email out the yingyang14:48
rick_h_heh, asked in my email "have we had them sign the ..." and the reply was "thanks for the work" with no reference to my question15:15
krondorWoo, first ubuntu server in production at my work; mission accomplished15:19
krondorThought I'd never see a non suse or redhat box here15:22
jrwrencongrats, I guess.15:32
jrwrenIMO that was always fighting hte wrong battle, but if you are happy about it, then congrats.15:33
brouschwhat is the right battle?15:34
jrwrenless windows servers, more linux servers.15:34
brouschsounds like he's already won that battle15:35
jrwrencould be.15:37
rick_h_Blazeix: you seen this? http://zeptojs.com/15:54
snap-lWhy am I geting the feeling this will be as heavy as jQuery in two years?16:00
rick_h_meh, two years be doing a different library, or language, or something16:00
snap-lWell, I love these "minimal" frameworks16:01
snap-lthey start off light and fluffy16:01
rick_h_well I love the idea16:01
rick_h_you can drop a ton of code in jquery16:01
snap-land then framework puberty hits, and suddenly they can't keep the pounds off16:01
rick_h_when you target mobile only16:02
rick_h_especially because it's basically targetting one, mobile webkit16:02
snap-land then someone comes along and says "hey, we need a minimal framework"16:02
snap-lwash, rinse, repeat...16:02
rick_h_it's how things get better16:05
rick_h_see "we need a minimal browser..." FF is born16:05
jrwrenjquery is heavy?16:05
rick_h_for mobile it can be16:05
jrwrenah, definitely.16:05
jrwrenin 2 yrs jquery won't be heavy for mobile.16:06
jrwrenmobile JS will be fast as hell16:06
rick_h_that's this thing, keep the API, drop all the extra browser stuff16:06
jrwrenzeptojs is jquery compat.  brilliant!16:06
jrwrenthat is brilliant.16:06
rick_h_in theory you could keep a lot of your code using jquery for the live site and move to movile16:06
jrwrenespecially for really shitty mobile like WP7 and blackberry16:06
rick_h_so maybe keep the events, control code16:06
rick_h_but replace the ui interaction bit with mobile specific16:07
snap-lrick_h_: Yeah, this does look cool. :)16:07
rick_h_ouch, my bookmarks file 300k16:09
rick_h_lmorchard's 4.8mb16:09
rick_h_this is going to be fun16:09
rick_h_time to kill sqlite16:10
rick_h_1:20s, not as bad as I thought it would be16:12
rick_h_damn, 7.3k tags, 16.7k bookmarks16:13
snap-lOh brilliant, A/L blocks one.ubuntu.com16:45
snap-l_and_ dropbox.com16:45
brouschthey found you out16:46
snap-l thank God they don't block port.usb16:46
snap-land when they do, I'll stop using this piece of shit Windows machine for anything other than e-mail16:54
snap-land Microsoft Communicator16:54
snap-lMan, Windows is slow.17:23
jrwrenits likely not windows or even XP, but rather insane corporate group policy and AV18:08
tjagodaSymantec endpoint eats systems alive18:14
tjagodaI am amazed, always, by how fast fresh XP installations run before I let people or AV touch them18:14
snap-ljrwren: ding ding ding18:22
snap-lmcaffee here18:22
jrwreni should NOT have had those 2 beers at lunch.19:03
jcastrosnap-l: ^19:05
jcastrorick_h_: ^19:05
jcastrogreg-g: ^19:05
jcastroeveryone ^19:05
gamerchick02two beers at lunch?19:05
gamerchick02sounds like the way to do it! :)19:05
snap-lWhen are tickets going up, since the site hasn't been updated19:06
rick_h_thanks for the reminder jcastro19:10
jrwrengamerchick02: yeah, and NCAA b-ball.  good time.19:10
gamerchick02oooh. cool.19:10
gamerchick02i'm not a fan of basketball, but it's a good reason to have a couple beers at lunch. :)19:11
jcastrosnap-l: they are up, it's nonobvious, click on the box on the right19:11
jcastrowrt. ignitedetroit register because they sell out fast, you can always give them to someone else if you can't make it19:12
rick_h_jcastro: wife friendly you htink?19:12
jcastrorick_h_: very much so19:13
jcastrojill loved it19:13
jcastroall the subjects are interesting, it's not tech heavy19:13
jcastrolike there was one on "how to buy a car without getting ripped off", etc.19:13
jcastrothey're all very interesting19:13
rick_h_k, registered19:13
greg-gwtf, the onclick() isn't working when I click register!19:18
greg-gok, chromium works, but not Fx4? oh well, registered!19:19
snap-ljust registered.19:20
jrwrenFx4?  JavaFX?19:20
snap-lFirefox 419:20
jrwrenFlex4 ?19:20
jrwrenisn't that FF4 /19:20
snap-lNobody uses Java19:20
greg-git is the official short name for Firefox19:20
jrwrenrofl. I wish noone used java.19:20
snap-lmeant JavaFX19:20
jrwrenit is? I've always seen Fx as the abrev for Flex19:20
snap-ljrwren: There is a world outside of Miscrosoft / Adobe. ;)19:21
snap-lYou should step outside and smell the fresh air sometime. ;)19:21
jrwrenno there isn't.19:21
snap-lWell, I hope the tea is good, number 619:21
snap-lFlex's new abbreviation is FuckYourselfInTheNex19:23
jrwren*gasp* how offensive19:23
snap-lMission Accomplished19:23
jrwrenwasn't the linux community in love with Air for about a month when tweetdeck first shipped?19:24
snap-lYeah, and then they realized the only thing Air was good for was twitter apps19:24
snap-land someone in the group-think-tank decided that Adobe should die in a fire.19:25
jcastrojrwren: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/hbdpomandigafcibbmofojjchbcdagbl19:33
jcastrojrwren: though there's a weburl somewhere19:33
jrwrensnap-l: such a fickle user base.19:39
jrwrenso now people run tweetdeck in chrome instead of air?19:39
jrwrenoh, there is tweetdeck chrome and tweetdeck desktop.19:40
jcastrothe chrome thing is just their webapp packaged for chrome19:44
* jcastro personally uses seesmic.com/web19:44
* snap-l uses gwibber / vim19:46
snap-lAnd yes, userbases are fickle19:46
snap-lI think Air's biggest problem was that people treated it like a desktop app, and it wsan't.19:46
snap-lMan, i do not like SOAp19:47
_stink_me neither.19:47
_stink_snap-l: you writing a client or something?19:48
snap-ltrying to write one in Python with suds19:49
snap-ljust to test some foo for work19:49
_stink_snap-l: ah, cool.  i found suds a few weeks ago.  seems ok.19:49
snap-land I'm not understanding how to get what I'm seeing in our developer guide into suds19:49
_stink_i confess i just fed suds a WSDL file and that was that.19:50
snap-lyeah, that's what I'm attempting as well19:50
snap-lthough there's a login piece (not HTTPAuth, afaict) that I need to pass along19:51
snap-lThank God for stack overflow. ;)19:52
snap-lAh, it's a separate piece for wsse19:53
snap-lI should have asked the GOOG a while ago19:53
jrwrenSOAP sucks unless you are using great tools along with it.19:55
snap-ljrwren: SOAP looks like it's best used with a program that just writes the damn code for you19:58
krondorI once tried to write a bad program against the soap apis for novell groupwise, I ende20:08
krondorSorry, ended up just using com20:08
MilyardoWhat can SOAP do that XMLRPC can't?20:09
krondorI cringe just looking at that sentencd20:09
krondorSoap supports different encodings and data types it seems, I think it has support for authentication methods too20:16
_stink_yeah, it does.20:16
MilyardoIf my understaning of SOAP and XMLRPC is correct, that they are tools to serialize structured information, then authentication sounds like it doesn't really belong20:19
Milyardo*understnaing of the purpose of XMLRPC and SOAP20:19
Milyardo*understanding ->20:19
krondorI think soap needed the authentication as services tried to rely on xml-rpc to manipulate an API (like in the case of groupwise) from xml input20:22
krondorNot just structure the information, but act on it20:23
krondorDid that make sense? IANA programmer20:26
MilyardoNot really an arguement for "why authentication shouldn't be handled more approiately elsewhere", more of a "why applications that XMLRPC need authentication"20:29
MilyardoThe problem is that the transport for XMLRPC(HTTP) is stateless20:30
MilyardoYou'd be better off implementing authentication in HTTP than in your document20:31
krondorYeah I was just going off where I've seen it used (shudder group wise)  not if it was the right thing to do20:33
* krondor quitting time20:41
brouschman, that's nice. pycharm has google app engine runs and uploads built-in23:28

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