[00:37] :) [00:38] well hello greg-g [00:38] hi there, I'm actually smiling because I guilt tripped DBO to rejoin the channel ;) [00:39] :) [00:41] man, jcastro is really a great cheer leader [00:41] (for context, see #ubuntu-meeting) [00:41] he's like 4 years late [00:41] ;) [00:42] I know dude, we're gonna vote soon, nhandler is just at dinner, and he has control of the bot :/ [00:42] meeting going on? [00:42] yep [00:43] eh? [00:44] voting whether to become #debian-us-mi or #gentoo-us-mi? [00:44] lol [00:44] #ubuntu-meeting [00:44] for DBO [00:45] brousch: :P [00:45] :) [00:46] * DBO just glad I didn't code through a second one of these [00:46] multitouch is sooo interesting [00:49] (he's a member now) [00:51] what happens if a vote goes 50/50? [00:53] you know, I don't know, we usually try to have an odd number of people voting, but that doesn't always happen [00:53] and, we've never had that kind of split [00:54] i hope the answer involves a Rancor [00:55] I considered attempting to get sabdfl to write a testimonial... just to see if he would [00:55] i vote no. [00:57] haha, that'd be awesome [00:57] does wmich.edu still run a mirror I wonder... [01:26] snap-l: your twitter name is too long [01:26] too hard to fit it :P [01:36] too long and too hard? [01:41] i got flask running on google app engine. it's much, much smaller than django with non-rel patch [01:42] like 200 files compared to 2000 [01:42] do sportscasters actually listen to what they say? [01:42] one just said "that was a big squirt" [01:43] took 4 seconds to be ready to serve compared to 2 minutes [01:48] brousch: yea, flash is great for that small kind of stuff [01:49] let it be known that rick_h_ encourages people to use flash. [01:59] rick_h_: Sorry, but blame Twitter fr not allowing me to use my old account [02:18] apparently im supposed to thank craig for his awesome editing [02:20] jjesse: You're welcome. :) [03:08] http://i.imgur.com/zWMXc.jpg [03:43] Blazeix: not sure on the replacement [03:43] I know the definition is "tags separated with spaces" [03:43] so yea, it breaks up spaces right now [03:44] I've not looked at catching "some tag" and such yet [03:52] ok. for now the google bookmark importer replaces spaces with hyphens, just to match the end result of the delicious importer. [03:53] yea, caught that. It different since delicious puts all the tags into a tag="this tag list" [03:53] so I can't tell they're separate, but google bookmarks does the repitition stuff you can catch [03:53] works for me for now though [03:54] tests pass :) [03:55] delicious comma-separates them, i think [03:56] right, ship it! [11:29] Ubuntu server question [11:29] I want to chart system resource usage over time [11:29] I would assume there is already a package for this? [11:47] tjagoda: yea, you're looking at something like cacti http://www.cacti.net/ or munin [11:48] nm, I just added a crontab to output the uptime command into a logfile [11:51] I dont need anything crazy [11:51] Just want to see the load over 24 hours or so [11:56] tjagoda: did you find the mythical code-free custom business webapp creator? [11:58] You all misunderstood me [11:58] I resolved to write it in PERL [11:58] I was wondering if there were any frameworks which would make my life easier in not having to code everything from the ground up [11:59] a perl framework? [11:59] I resolved to write it in PERL post-looking for frameworks [12:00] why do you hate yourself so much? [12:00] Why would anyone not want to code with a chainsaw? [12:00] because its easy to cut off your own leg [12:01] and no one wants to help a chainsaw-wielding madman [12:02] My business application will be a temple to Larry Wall [12:03] I wonder how I can figure out disk throughput on ubuntu server [12:03] * tjagoda googles more [12:07] so I've got some Pycon t-shirts, stickers, and IDE discount codes for people at the next CHC [12:07] don't let me forget [12:09] morning [12:09] hola [12:09] ide discounts? [12:11] rick_h_: you mean like pycharm? [12:14] I've got wingide and komodo [12:14] I don't think I grabbed the pycharm one [12:15] they were there with discounts, but don't think it was in the goody bag [12:15] i use komodo's free version often [12:16] the paid version adds debugging, woohoo [12:16] $50 off komodo software thorgh 3/31 [12:16] and 50% off wingide professional [12:16] never tried that one [12:16] it's one of the best for python [12:16] much better than komodo [12:16] imo [12:16] komodo is nice for webapps because it understands css and html [12:17] i think it even does django templates now [12:18] did you feel dirty picking up those discounts? [12:18] looks like wing does django templates too [12:19] no, I'm not using them [12:19] but figured give-aways with the group is good stuff [12:41] g'mornin' [12:41] party [12:43] rick_h_: You get home OK last night? [12:43] yea [12:44] just made the waiting list for the next flight 2hrs later [12:44] Coolness [12:45] That was my biggest fear whenI was flying. [12:45] yea, it was a big newbie mistake [12:45] Well, second biggest. First biggest was being detained by TSA for having more than 3oz of fluid [12:45] for some reason I had the time on the ticket as boarding time, and they moved the gate on me, etc [12:45] ugh [12:46] Banshee is going to have DVD support? [12:47] They're working hard to be Windows Media Center, aren't they? [13:15] i'm watching the IDE shootout panel from pycon 2011. pycharm looks really nice [13:15] brousch: yea, it's the new kid on the block and supposedly is nice and updating fast [13:16] i was supposed to try it in feb and never got to it [13:17] also, it's frickin awesome that thse videos are up already [13:17] yea, they had them up in the middle of the conference [13:17] by day 2, day one videos were going up, just crazy [13:18] i found 5 i need to watch [13:18] was it the same group of video people as at pyohio? [13:18] you should find more than that [13:18] yea, same group [13:18] PSF pays them I think [13:22] damn, wing looks good too. maybe there's something to non-free ides [13:23] I was a big fan of wing [13:23] I just got cranky because I did php by day [13:23] python by night [13:23] and was using Zend studio for php, wing for python and tired of two editors [13:24] heh, emacs is in the shootout, but no vim [13:24] yea, I was in another talk :( [13:24] or else I would have represented [13:25] heh [13:25] first conference in a while I didn't do an vim openspace [13:25] so were you demoing awesome in the hall? [13:25] heh no, but ran into a few fellow users [13:25] the qtile guy mentioned seeing someone demoing awesome in the hall and so decided to do his lightening talk [13:26] heh, wasn't me [13:29] emacs guy is running ubuntu on mbp [13:31] you would have blown them all away [13:53] tjagoda: i didn't know you were looking for perl frameworks. I'll look up the name of the one that I would use. [13:54] tjagoda: your question was "what language would ya'll use..." wasn't it? [13:55] I originally asked for a good framework in general, afterwards deciding that I wanted to use a chainsaw (read: perl) [13:59] oh, chainsaw. cool. [13:59] python, stdlib ftw [14:03] http://docs.python.org/library/index.html#library-index [14:22] stdlib? [14:22] what specifically? [14:23] just if you're trying to do system stuff there's a ton of tools that's OS specific/etc [14:23] and it's not extra packages [14:23] oh yeah, definitely. [14:23] so for a framework, fewer extra deps ftw [14:23] perl has the same great system stuff [14:24] Perl is quite rich when it comes to built-in foo [14:24] counting cpan as 'built in'? [14:24] No, not counting cpan [14:24] although last time I used perl, sets were external had to get from cpan, where python sets are NICE [14:24] gotcha, k [14:25] jrwren: Python has had the benefit of a more visible and active development process in the past few years [14:25] and it looks like more stuff is getting backported from 3 to 2 [14:25] s/few years/decade/ [14:25] jrwren: now now... [14:25] seriously. [14:25] I'm sure 5.14 is just lovely. ;) [14:26] there is a 5.14? [14:26] iirc, there is [14:26] wait. [14:26] there is a 5.12 ? [14:26] and a 5.10, 5.8 [14:26] yes, those I've used. [14:26] i've not used 5.12 or 5.14 [14:26] perl -V on mavrick says 5.10 :) [14:27] Yeah, not many folks have adopted 5.12 [14:27] http://perldoc.perl.org/perldelta.html [14:27] http://www.effectiveperlprogramming.com/blog/531 [14:28] I mean, it's not as sexy as the releast of Python that included sets, and other from __future__ import goodness... [14:28] but there's still a pulse. [14:28] apparently. [14:28] hell, I'm sure someone was waiting for Carp to get an upgrade. [14:29] *cough* [14:29] you can upgrade fish? [14:30] I can slap you with one. [14:30] :) [14:31] I managed to pick up a booklinght on steroids last night from Staples for 11.50 [14:32] It's a desk lamp with at least 16 LEDs in it [14:32] 6x6, so 36 (hadn't looked under there until now. :) ) [14:33] oooh.. Carp... [14:33] Nice and cool as well, though the directions tell you not to put it next to anything flammable. [14:33] i only remember the name and I can't remember wht Carp actually is. [14:34] error handling [14:34] <_stink_> snap-l: "put it next to" or "point it at"? [14:34] _stink_: keep away from materials that burn [14:36] <_stink_> i was hoping it was a firebeam. [14:37] anyone want to do me a favor a deface a site? [14:37] I'll give you the keys [14:37] only if I have indemnity [14:37] depressing that I'm sitting here doing horrible security things because I'm told to "the client wants it to be easier" [14:37] tor? [14:37] too risky [14:37] crap [14:38] Could post it to full disclosure [14:38] this is why wikileaks was created [14:38] heh [14:38] I'm sure someone would bork it for you [14:38] heh, no I don't want anonymous involved. Just want one small lesson. [14:38] * rick_h_ hangs head in shame [14:39] What are they having you do? [14:40] * rick_h_ is resetting passwords from random generated 6 char to 4 digits [14:40] and the 4 digits are in the usernames [14:40] awesome [14:40] yea, these guys are my heros [14:40] and it's an app that's on the public internet not limited to an intranet [14:40] Almost as good as the site that I was maintaining that would send you one of 6 passwords if you forgot it [14:40] so I've raised hell for the last several months as the project went along [14:41] really secure [14:41] and I finally got overruled [14:41] Hey, you just made some rainbow tabler's life that much easier. ;) [14:41] I have a client with admin privileges to her public website, and she refused to change her password. [14:42] her password is her username. [14:42] and not only that, but the digits are matched to store #'s so if you worked/knew anything you could guess [14:42] so not even random 4 digits [14:42] rick_h_: You could send the interested parties the hack that happened to gawker media [14:43] my boss saw that, sent him all that info [14:43] someone gets a bug up their butt about your site, you're going down if you don't have good security. [14:43] he was my lat hope [14:43] and he overruled? [14:43] /lat/last [14:43] end of the day it sounds like one of those "client pays the bills, give what they want" [14:44] Could put a little note in the password e-mail: Here is your ridiculously simple and easy to remember password. Hope your admin made backups". [14:44] until they blame you when they get defaced [14:45] well, I pushed that we make them sign something that says we're not responsible and will not correct the data if defaced [14:45] they've not written/signed this, but discussed it [14:45] rick_h_: You've done your job then [14:46] yea, I know...still depressing as hell to run these commands [14:46] and hopefully your company will be smart and follow through [14:47] i assume your objections have all been documented [14:48] yea, email out the yingyang [15:15] heh, asked in my email "have we had them sign the ..." and the reply was "thanks for the work" with no reference to my question [15:19] Woo, first ubuntu server in production at my work; mission accomplished [15:21] congrats! [15:22] Thought I'd never see a non suse or redhat box here [15:32] congrats, I guess. [15:33] IMO that was always fighting hte wrong battle, but if you are happy about it, then congrats. [15:34] what is the right battle? [15:34] less windows servers, more linux servers. [15:35] sounds like he's already won that battle [15:37] could be. [15:54] Blazeix: you seen this? http://zeptojs.com/ [15:59] aerogel-weight? [16:00] Why am I geting the feeling this will be as heavy as jQuery in two years? [16:00] meh, two years be doing a different library, or language, or something [16:01] Well, I love these "minimal" frameworks [16:01] they start off light and fluffy [16:01] well I love the idea [16:01] you can drop a ton of code in jquery [16:01] and then framework puberty hits, and suddenly they can't keep the pounds off [16:02] when you target mobile only [16:02] especially because it's basically targetting one, mobile webkit [16:02] and then someone comes along and says "hey, we need a minimal framework" [16:02] wash, rinse, repeat... [16:05] it's how things get better [16:05] see "we need a minimal browser..." FF is born [16:05] jquery is heavy? [16:05] for mobile it can be [16:05] ah, definitely. [16:06] in 2 yrs jquery won't be heavy for mobile. [16:06] mobile JS will be fast as hell [16:06] that's this thing, keep the API, drop all the extra browser stuff [16:06] yea [16:06] oh!!! [16:06] zeptojs is jquery compat. brilliant! [16:06] exactly [16:06] that is brilliant. [16:06] in theory you could keep a lot of your code using jquery for the live site and move to movile [16:06] especially for really shitty mobile like WP7 and blackberry [16:06] so maybe keep the events, control code [16:07] but replace the ui interaction bit with mobile specific [16:07] rick_h_: Yeah, this does look cool. :) [16:09] ouch, my bookmarks file 300k [16:09] lmorchard's 4.8mb [16:09] this is going to be fun [16:10] time to kill sqlite [16:12] 1:20s, not as bad as I thought it would be [16:13] damn, 7.3k tags, 16.7k bookmarks [16:45] Oh brilliant, A/L blocks one.ubuntu.com [16:45] _and_ dropbox.com [16:46] they found you out [16:46] thank God they don't block port.usb [16:51] yet [16:54] and when they do, I'll stop using this piece of shit Windows machine for anything other than e-mail [16:54] and Microsoft Communicator [17:23] Man, Windows is slow. [17:34] XP? [17:36] ayep [18:08] its likely not windows or even XP, but rather insane corporate group policy and AV [18:14] Symantec endpoint eats systems alive [18:14] I am amazed, always, by how fast fresh XP installations run before I let people or AV touch them [18:22] jrwren: ding ding ding [18:22] mcaffee here [19:03] i should NOT have had those 2 beers at lunch. [19:05] http://ignitedetroit.net/ [19:05] snap-l: ^ [19:05] rick_h_: ^ [19:05] greg-g: ^ [19:05] everyone ^ [19:05] two beers at lunch? [19:05] sounds like the way to do it! :) [19:06] When are tickets going up, since the site hasn't been updated [19:10] cool [19:10] thanks for the reminder jcastro [19:10] gamerchick02: yeah, and NCAA b-ball. good time. [19:10] oooh. cool. [19:11] i'm not a fan of basketball, but it's a good reason to have a couple beers at lunch. :) [19:11] snap-l: they are up, it's nonobvious, click on the box on the right [19:12] wrt. ignitedetroit register because they sell out fast, you can always give them to someone else if you can't make it [19:12] jcastro: wife friendly you htink? [19:13] rick_h_: very much so [19:13] jill loved it [19:13] all the subjects are interesting, it's not tech heavy [19:13] like there was one on "how to buy a car without getting ripped off", etc. [19:13] they're all very interesting [19:13] k, registered [19:13] thanks [19:18] wtf, the onclick() isn't working when I click register! [19:19] ok, chromium works, but not Fx4? oh well, registered! [19:20] just registered. [19:20] Fx4? JavaFX? [19:20] Firefox 4 [19:20] Flex4 ? [19:20] isn't that FF4 / [19:20] Nobody uses Java [19:20] it is the official short name for Firefox [19:20] rofl. I wish noone used java. [19:20] meant JavaFX [19:20] it is? I've always seen Fx as the abrev for Flex [19:21] jrwren: There is a world outside of Miscrosoft / Adobe. ;) [19:21] https://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/releases/1.5.html#FAQ [19:21] You should step outside and smell the fresh air sometime. ;) [19:21] no there isn't. [19:21] Well, I hope the tea is good, number 6 [19:22] http://www.adobe.com/products/flex/ [19:23] Flex's new abbreviation is FuckYourselfInTheNex [19:23] 4 [19:23] *gasp* how offensive [19:23] Mission Accomplished [19:24] wasn't the linux community in love with Air for about a month when tweetdeck first shipped? [19:24] Yeah, and then they realized the only thing Air was good for was twitter apps [19:25] and someone in the group-think-tank decided that Adobe should die in a fire. [19:33] jrwren: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/hbdpomandigafcibbmofojjchbcdagbl [19:33] jrwren: though there's a weburl somewhere [19:39] snap-l: such a fickle user base. [19:39] so now people run tweetdeck in chrome instead of air? [19:40] oh, there is tweetdeck chrome and tweetdeck desktop. [19:44] the chrome thing is just their webapp packaged for chrome [19:44] * jcastro personally uses seesmic.com/web [19:46] * snap-l uses gwibber / vim [19:46] And yes, userbases are fickle [19:46] I think Air's biggest problem was that people treated it like a desktop app, and it wsan't. [19:47] Man, i do not like SOAp [19:47] <_stink_> me neither. [19:48] <_stink_> snap-l: you writing a client or something? [19:49] trying to write one in Python with suds [19:49] just to test some foo for work [19:49] <_stink_> snap-l: ah, cool. i found suds a few weeks ago. seems ok. [19:49] and I'm not understanding how to get what I'm seeing in our developer guide into suds [19:50] <_stink_> i confess i just fed suds a WSDL file and that was that. [19:50] yeah, that's what I'm attempting as well [19:51] though there's a login piece (not HTTPAuth, afaict) that I need to pass along [19:52] Thank God for stack overflow. ;) [19:52] <_stink_> hehe [19:53] Ah, it's a separate piece for wsse [19:53] I should have asked the GOOG a while ago [19:55] SOAP sucks unless you are using great tools along with it. [19:58] jrwren: SOAP looks like it's best used with a program that just writes the damn code for you [20:08] I once tried to write a bad program against the soap apis for novell groupwise, I ende [20:08] Sorry, ended up just using com [20:09] What can SOAP do that XMLRPC can't? [20:09] I cringe just looking at that sentencd [20:16] Soap supports different encodings and data types it seems, I think it has support for authentication methods too [20:16] <_stink_> yeah, it does. [20:19] If my understaning of SOAP and XMLRPC is correct, that they are tools to serialize structured information, then authentication sounds like it doesn't really belong [20:19] *understnaing of the purpose of XMLRPC and SOAP [20:19] *understanding -> [20:22] I think soap needed the authentication as services tried to rely on xml-rpc to manipulate an API (like in the case of groupwise) from xml input [20:23] Not just structure the information, but act on it [20:26] Did that make sense? IANA programmer [20:29] Not really an arguement for "why authentication shouldn't be handled more approiately elsewhere", more of a "why applications that XMLRPC need authentication" [20:30] The problem is that the transport for XMLRPC(HTTP) is stateless [20:31] You'd be better off implementing authentication in HTTP than in your document [20:33] Yeah I was just going off where I've seen it used (shudder group wise) not if it was the right thing to do [20:41] * krondor quitting time [23:28] man, that's nice. pycharm has google app engine runs and uploads built-in