=== IdleOne is now known as MaverickOne
=== MaverickOne is now known as IdleOne
UndiFineDhey Pendulum you're about ? I was thinking we could aim for a browser user agent specification telling websites certain types of accessibility are requested14:36
PendulumUndiFineD: what do you mean?14:39
UndiFineDwell you get some control over the user agent version14:40
Pendulum1) I'm not sure that would be an ubuntu thing. Sounds like something you'd want as a plug-in for browsers or something14:40
UndiFineDand it says, give me braille texts14:40
Pendulumright, but do you mean in terms of notifying sites where there is missing accessibility?14:41
UndiFineDno, all14:41
UndiFineDa sites css could be adjusted to the requested accessibility demands14:42
AlanBellso like sites give you the mobile version if you browse from a phone14:42
AlanBellI think Pendulum is right, not so much an Ubuntu thing14:43
AlanBellprobably a W3C thing14:43
Pendulumit'd need a pretty major development change in web development, I think14:43
charlie-tcanew installer colors for the alternate cd and server cd14:44
charlie-tcaaubergine and light orange14:44
charlie-tcaand, yes, the orange on white is hard to read14:44
AlanBellUndiFineD: http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-USERAGENT/14:46
UndiFineDI'll have a read14:47
AlanBellthat is talking about "user agents" as the browser rather than specifically the user agent http header string14:47
AlanBellUndiFineD: the best way for sites to offer raw content that can be consumed in accessible ways is to have good rss feeds14:50
AlanBellfor sites that are about reading content that is14:50
UndiFineDmakes sense14:51
charlie-tcaPendulum: screenshot of new installer on alternate cd - http://imagebin.org/14414314:51
AlanBellthe aubergine isn't that nice14:53
PendulumI'm happy to confirm a bug if you file one about it being difficult to read (tbh, I find the aubrigine at that shade hard to read on the white as much as the orange & white is)14:53
charlie-tcahm, and this is from the "design team"again14:53
AlanBellI don't think they have many colours to choose from at that stage of the installer14:53
AlanBellto be fair, the body text is black on light grey, the stuff that is harder to read is more decorative14:54
AlanBelland the <continue> is the highlighted option, you can move left and right to read it14:54
charlie-tcathey changed the pallette to get these colors, can't they remember that accessibility is supposed to be important?14:54
charlie-tcaIf they can decide these are good pallette colors, they should be able to actually include colors that work14:55
AlanBellthe orange is a lot better than yellow on white14:55
charlie-tcathey have 16 colors to use, and the design team decided these colors were better then the old pallette14:56
AlanBellif they made it bold it would probably work better (if they can do bold there)14:56
charlie-tcaThe red and blue they had before worked great14:56
charlie-tcamoving the highlight does not make the rest of the text any easier to read14:58
AlanBellwhich bit is hard to read?14:58
AlanBelljust "[!!] Finish the installation"?14:59
Pendulumand 'Installations complete'14:59
Pendulumthe black is the only okay bit for me14:59
* AlanBell tries with the colourblindness filters15:00
charlie-tcaactually, I find the orange on white/grey, aubergine on white/grey, and black on the white/grey background all difficult to read15:00
AlanBellbother, wrong VM15:00
AlanBellI will try later15:00
AlanBelltried it15:08
AlanBellfor deuteranopia and protanopia the colours seem to be OK, neither of them disappears or dramatically fades15:08
charlie-tcaThat doesn't make them okay for all of us15:10
AlanBellI know15:10
charlie-tcaAre you on the design team, they use these same type arguments to not fix anything15:10
AlanBellno, I am not15:10
AlanBellI was hoping to be able to help put together a good bug report with objective evidence15:11
charlie-tcaevery argument in the bug report that says "it does not affect" seems to give the design team more reason to not fix things15:15
charlie-tcabug 73944515:21
ubot2Launchpad bug 739445 in debian-installer "Debian-installer uses colors that are not accessible" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/73944515:21
AlanBellyes, but I didn't say it in the bug report!16:02
AlanBellI was hoping that this was going to be a really clear case that colour blind people would simply not be able to see some of the text, which would give me an opportunity to demonstrate to the design team that they should be testing with the filters as a generally useful tool16:05
AlanBellas it is I will wait for a better opportunity to arise16:05
Nafaigood morning all16:06
AlanBellhi Nafai 16:06
Pendulumhi Nafai 16:06
NafaiI really should start getting involved here, even if for selfish reasons :)16:06
charlie-tcaThanks. I hope we can actually get a better combination for all of us.16:06
PendulumNafai: I just realised who you are o/16:07
PendulumI think we met in Belgium16:08
NafaiI kind of dropped off the grid for a while after that, been a rough year16:09
NafaiGot another little wake up call a few weeks ago from my eye doctor when I saw how bad my retinitis pigmentosa is getting16:10
NafaiYeah, unfortunately, in a decade or so I could be totally blind16:13
NafaiBut at least I have that time to code and get stuff in place that I won't be forced to used Windows :)16:13
=== API is now known as apinheiro
PendulumJackyAlcine: are you around?20:09
JackyAlcineDefine 'around' :)20:10
JackyAlcineWhat's up?20:10
Pendulumcan I PM you for a sec? (nothing bad, I promise :) )20:10
JackyAlcineLol, suree20:11
charlie-tcaprogress on the installer bug! We will now have a setting under F5 to choose better colors for visually disabled installs20:56
charlie-tcame too21:02
charlie-tcaevery little bit helps, huh?21:02
charlie-tcaPendulum: you following the ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list at all?21:03
charlie-tcathere is a user with Onboard trying to use Unity21:03
charlie-tcaand getting no help from the developers21:03
charlie-tcaMight need to poke jono or jcastro about this one, it is his second time asking questions about accessibility and unity, and he doesn't get anwsers21:06
Pendulumwhat's worse about his not getting answers is that he's the mousetweaks devel :-/21:07
charlie-tcaI did try to give an answer to this question, but it is frustrating to see him ignored again21:08
charlie-tcafrom an accessible point, Unity really falls down, even if the charts don't reflect that21:10
Pendulumfrom my call with jono last week it sounds like it was one of those things where no one realised how much work it was until they were in the middle of it21:10
Pendulumpart of me wants to write something about 'accessibility as 2nd class citizen... again', but I don't want to discount all the good work that has been done21:11
charlie-tcabut they keep praising themselves for how great it works for "everyone"21:11
macoie, you're not people21:11
Pendulumtbh, it doesn't even work for 'everyone' in the general sense21:12
charlie-tcaMaybe if they had made Ubuntu accessible to start with, instead of pretending, it would have worked better21:12
Pendulumwell, I think a lot of regressions have shown up21:12
PendulumI really remember accessibility in Ubuntu being loads easier in 2007 when I started using it21:12
charlie-tcaWe just have to keep trying then, I guess. Maybe we did not push hard enough for a while to make sure things were happening21:13
Riddellrevu and testing needed http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/p/qt-at-spi21:13
PendulumRiddell: can you send an e-mail to the accessibility mailing list as well?21:14
charlie-tcaOkay, I am going pull some weeds, I think the ground is thawed today.21:14
Pendulumcharlie-tca: lucky you. We got an inch of snow earlier today :-/21:14
charlie-tcaWe haven't had any for at least two days already :-)21:14
Pendulumwe hadn't had any for a week21:14
Pendulumand it even got up to the upper 60s on friday21:15
Pendulumbut now I can't see the grass again :(21:15
charlie-tcastayed in the 40's last night too21:15
charlie-tcaYeah, gotta try to pull weeds before it snows again 21:15
RiddellPendulum: do I need to be subscribed?21:15
PendulumRiddell: I don't think so, but I"m not 100% sure21:16
pleia2is onboard an easily selectable option for gdm yet?21:19
pleia2I was working on a tablet last week and the guy just ended up setting up auto-login instead of bothering :\21:20
Pendulumpleia2: it's almost impossible to use on Unity21:20
Pendulumpretty much what's most likely to happen is accessible installs for Natty will end up going back to stock GNOME21:20
Pendulumrather than even trying to load Unity21:20
pleia2with Unity's alleged aim at touchscreen devices too I think this is a major problem beyond accessibility21:20
AlanBellbut unity hasn't started at the GDM screen21:21
pleia2as it is now in 10.10 when you install onboard it doesn't even show up in the gnome menu, I had to use the menu editor to enable the section of the menu, it was awful21:21
Pendulumpleia2: yep21:21
Pendulumwe can count that among the regressions I've noticed since I started using Ubuntu21:22
PendulumI believe the arguement was cleaning up clutter21:22
Pendulumit used to be a lot easier to configure screen magnification and text-to-speech in a GUI as well21:22
pleia2yeah, it's tossed in a whole different section of the gnome menu which isn't enabled by default21:22
Pendulum(I still don't know how to configure screen magnification in a GUI way if you don't have Compiz-mag)21:23
PendulumI'm not sure if that change was a GNOME one or an ubuntu one21:23
macoRiddell: doh. im really failing at packaging the things i say im going to package this cycle, huh? :(21:23
pleia2(why it's not just in the regular accessories portion of the menu confounds me)21:23
Riddellmaco: time for a revu!21:25
macoRiddell: when i get home from the diddleedee music21:25
* maco makes note to self21:25
Pendulumpleia2: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/onboard/+bug/27545021:25
ubot2Launchpad bug 275450 in onboard "menu items missing on fresh install of Ubuntu" [High,Triaged]21:25
Riddellmaco: why are you IRCing from diddly dee music?21:25
macoRiddell: i'm not. i'm heading there in a half hour though21:26
macoand my natty machine is at home (and i am not)21:26
pleia2Pendulum: thanks :)21:27
Pendulumpleia2: any chance you'd be interested in blogging about the issues regarding onBoard/tablets/etc.?21:27
Pendulum(just to get another face out there because I swear people are going to start turning off when they notice it's me talking about accessibility against ;-) )21:28
pleia2Pendulum: actually, yes, let me get some notes together and drop an email to the guy whose tablet I worked on to see if he has any additions21:28
Pendulumit's what happens about physical world access issues so I kinda expect it to happen online as well21:28
* maco would like to note that KMag seems to work pretty well21:28
macoRiddell:  do we install KMag by default?21:29
Pendulummy memory is that gnome-mag used to work really well. I just haven't figured out how to use it without the command line these days21:29
pleia2Pendulum: this bug report is fascinating, I understand the progression now21:29
Pendulumyeah. I came across it a couple weeks ago21:29
pleia2and hugs to charlie-tca for all his great replies on it :)21:30
Riddellmaco: apt-cache show kmag | grep Task   says we do21:30
macoRiddell: good21:32
AlanBellPendulum: orca has magnification but it is *terrible* on my high res screen, it might work better with a smaller number of pixels to throw about21:34
AlanBellthe clever thing it does is text cursor position tracking21:34
AlanBellin gtk text fields at least, and have seen how it does that21:34
macoi wonder if i could use the computer without glasses if i used kmag... will need to experiment21:34
AlanBellI think the same process can be hacked into the compiz zoom plugin to give that text cursor following ability too, but that is in C, which is too hard for my little brain to cope with21:35
hajourwauw very much to read back22:19
hajourthere seams to be some problems whit Unity in maverick22:20
hajourthe person who told me that is now re-logging i have told to come here to tell it .maybe 1 of you know a solution or where he can fill in a bug.or what is causing it22:21
hajourAlanBell, charlie-tca  Pendulum pleia2 22:22
hajoursee above22:22
charlie-tcahajour: Unity is not accessible. That person should be using gnome instead22:22
hajouri don't know who of you know something about this22:22
charlie-tcaUnity was not default in Maverick22:22
AlanBellhajour: what is the problem they are experiencing22:22
hajourso thats why i called different names22:22
AlanBellI am using unity in Maverick22:23
hajouri have asked to come to accessibility22:24
hajourto tell you22:24
MrChrisDruifHai everyone, hajour drags me all around :P22:25
AlanBellhi MrChrisDruif 22:25
MrChrisDruifNo offense ofc hajour22:26
MrChrisDruifHow's it going AlanBell?22:26
hajournow you can tell them what issues there are MrChrisDruif 22:27
MrChrisDruifWell, I had some custom shortcuts (Like <Super>1 for going to desktop 1) which didn't work anymore...22:28
MrChrisDruifAlso the unity in maverick somehow also disabled all my window effects etc...22:28
AlanBellyes, unity in maverick uses mutter rather than compiz so you won't get window effects22:29
AlanBellone reason they rewrote it for Natty22:29
MrChrisDruifThat's what I thought22:29
AlanBellif you hold the super key it shows the shortcuts that it grabs for the dock icons22:30
MrChrisDruif<Super>e was for expo, which obviously didn't work anymore22:30
AlanBellyeah, that is a compiz shortcut22:30
AlanBellworks on Natty22:30
MrChrisDruifYeah, if you hold super you can go to the apps running on the side22:30
hajourso problem solved?:)22:35
MrChrisDruifWell, like I said, maverick's unity != natty's unity :P22:35
hajourok :)22:36
MrChrisDruifIs it possible to install natty's unity on maverick?22:37
AlanBellthey had plans to do that but there wasn't enough compiz to make it run22:37
MrChrisDruifThat's a shame22:37
hajouri wanted to  say i don't know or it is ubuntu part but the abrowser dos not work good22:37
hajourif you switch to a other page whit many pics on it go really slowly22:38
hajourand you get screen freeze or grey squires22:38
charlie-tcamaco: might want to look into bug 681412 also for Onboard22:50
ubot2Launchpad bug 681412 in at-spi "Can not enter password for Administrative tasks using Onboard Keyboard" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/68141222:50
hajour i go read my mail.if someone want to speak me or need me or what ever do not forget to call my name in line then ok :)23:02
charlie-tcafor those tracking bugs about accessibility in Unity - bug 73981223:13
ubot2Launchpad bug 739812 in unity "Must use hardware keyboard to perform search for applications in Unity" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/73981223:13
Pendulumcharlie-tca: feel free to subscribe me to any bugs like that23:25
charlie-tcaI lost the old one for that, so I had to file a new bug23:25
Pendulum(yes, I did just say I want more bug mail ;-) )23:26
charlie-tcaI get enough for three or four people, myself23:27

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