[12:15] <JackyAlcine> o/
[14:36] <UndiFineD> hey Pendulum you're about ? I was thinking we could aim for a browser user agent specification telling websites certain types of accessibility are requested
[14:39] <Pendulum> UndiFineD: what do you mean?
[14:40] <UndiFineD> well you get some control over the user agent version
[14:40] <Pendulum> 1) I'm not sure that would be an ubuntu thing. Sounds like something you'd want as a plug-in for browsers or something
[14:40] <UndiFineD> and it says, give me braille texts
[14:41] <Pendulum> right, but do you mean in terms of notifying sites where there is missing accessibility?
[14:41] <UndiFineD> no, all
[14:42] <UndiFineD> a sites css could be adjusted to the requested accessibility demands
[14:42] <AlanBell> so like sites give you the mobile version if you browse from a phone
[14:42] <UndiFineD> yes
[14:43] <AlanBell> I think Pendulum is right, not so much an Ubuntu thing
[14:43] <AlanBell> probably a W3C thing
[14:43] <UndiFineD> hmmm
[14:43] <Pendulum> it'd need a pretty major development change in web development, I think
[14:44] <charlie-tca> new installer colors for the alternate cd and server cd
[14:44] <charlie-tca> aubergine and light orange
[14:44] <charlie-tca> and, yes, the orange on white is hard to read
[14:46] <AlanBell> UndiFineD: http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-USERAGENT/
[14:46] <UndiFineD> hah
[14:46] <UndiFineD> thanks
[14:47] <UndiFineD> I'll have a read
[14:47] <AlanBell> that is talking about "user agents" as the browser rather than specifically the user agent http header string
[14:50] <AlanBell> UndiFineD: the best way for sites to offer raw content that can be consumed in accessible ways is to have good rss feeds
[14:50] <AlanBell> for sites that are about reading content that is
[14:51] <UndiFineD> makes sense
[14:51] <charlie-tca> Pendulum: screenshot of new installer on alternate cd - http://imagebin.org/144143
[14:52] <Pendulum> ugh
[14:53] <AlanBell> the aubergine isn't that nice
[14:53] <Pendulum> I'm happy to confirm a bug if you file one about it being difficult to read (tbh, I find the aubrigine at that shade hard to read on the white as much as the orange & white is)
[14:53] <charlie-tca> hm, and this is from the "design team"again
[14:53] <AlanBell> I don't think they have many colours to choose from at that stage of the installer
[14:54] <AlanBell> to be fair, the body text is black on light grey, the stuff that is harder to read is more decorative
[14:54] <Pendulum> yeah
[14:54] <AlanBell> and the <continue> is the highlighted option, you can move left and right to read it
[14:54] <charlie-tca> they changed the pallette to get these colors, can't they remember that accessibility is supposed to be important?
[14:55] <charlie-tca> If they can decide these are good pallette colors, they should be able to actually include colors that work
[14:55] <AlanBell> the orange is a lot better than yellow on white
[14:56] <charlie-tca> they have 16 colors to use, and the design team decided these colors were better then the old pallette
[14:56] <AlanBell> if they made it bold it would probably work better (if they can do bold there)
[14:56] <charlie-tca> The red and blue they had before worked great
[14:58] <charlie-tca> moving the highlight does not make the rest of the text any easier to read
[14:58] <AlanBell> which bit is hard to read?
[14:59] <AlanBell> just "[!!] Finish the installation"?
[14:59] <Pendulum> and 'Installations complete'
[14:59] <Pendulum> *Installation
[14:59] <Pendulum> the black is the only okay bit for me
[15:00]  * AlanBell tries with the colourblindness filters
[15:00] <charlie-tca> actually, I find the orange on white/grey, aubergine on white/grey, and black on the white/grey background all difficult to read
[15:00] <AlanBell> bother, wrong VM
[15:00] <AlanBell> I will try later
[15:08] <AlanBell> tried it
[15:08] <AlanBell> for deuteranopia and protanopia the colours seem to be OK, neither of them disappears or dramatically fades
[15:10] <charlie-tca> That doesn't make them okay for all of us
[15:10] <AlanBell> I know
[15:10] <charlie-tca> Are you on the design team, they use these same type arguments to not fix anything
[15:10] <AlanBell> no, I am not
[15:11] <AlanBell> I was hoping to be able to help put together a good bug report with objective evidence
[15:15] <charlie-tca> every argument in the bug report that says "it does not affect" seems to give the design team more reason to not fix things
[15:21] <charlie-tca> bug 739445
[15:21] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 739445 in debian-installer "Debian-installer uses colors that are not accessible" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/739445
[16:02] <AlanBell> yes, but I didn't say it in the bug report!
[16:05] <AlanBell> I was hoping that this was going to be a really clear case that colour blind people would simply not be able to see some of the text, which would give me an opportunity to demonstrate to the design team that they should be testing with the filters as a generally useful tool
[16:05] <AlanBell> as it is I will wait for a better opportunity to arise
[16:06] <Nafai> good morning all
[16:06] <AlanBell> hi Nafai 
[16:06] <Pendulum> hi Nafai 
[16:06] <Nafai> I really should start getting involved here, even if for selfish reasons :)
[16:06] <charlie-tca> Thanks. I hope we can actually get a better combination for all of us.
[16:07] <Pendulum> Nafai: I just realised who you are o/
[16:08] <Pendulum> I think we met in Belgium
[16:08] <Nafai> Yeah
[16:09] <Nafai> I kind of dropped off the grid for a while after that, been a rough year
[16:09] <Pendulum> *nods*
[16:10] <Nafai> Got another little wake up call a few weeks ago from my eye doctor when I saw how bad my retinitis pigmentosa is getting
[16:12] <Pendulum> :(
[16:13] <Nafai> Yeah, unfortunately, in a decade or so I could be totally blind
[16:13] <Nafai> But at least I have that time to code and get stuff in place that I won't be forced to used Windows :)
[16:14] <Pendulum> :)
[20:09] <Pendulum> JackyAlcine: are you around?
[20:10] <JackyAlcine> Define 'around' :)
[20:10] <JackyAlcine> What's up?
[20:10] <Pendulum> can I PM you for a sec? (nothing bad, I promise :) )
[20:11] <JackyAlcine> Lol, suree
[20:56] <charlie-tca> progress on the installer bug! We will now have a setting under F5 to choose better colors for visually disabled installs
[21:00] <Pendulum> \o/
[21:02] <charlie-tca> me too
[21:02] <charlie-tca> every little bit helps, huh?
[21:03] <charlie-tca> Pendulum: you following the ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list at all?
[21:03] <charlie-tca> there is a user with Onboard trying to use Unity
[21:03] <charlie-tca> and getting no help from the developers
[21:06] <charlie-tca> Might need to poke jono or jcastro about this one, it is his second time asking questions about accessibility and unity, and he doesn't get anwsers
[21:06] <charlie-tca> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2011-March/012496.html
[21:07] <Pendulum> what's worse about his not getting answers is that he's the mousetweaks devel :-/
[21:08] <charlie-tca> ooops
[21:08] <charlie-tca> I did try to give an answer to this question, but it is frustrating to see him ignored again
[21:08] <Pendulum> yeah
[21:10] <charlie-tca> from an accessible point, Unity really falls down, even if the charts don't reflect that
[21:10] <Pendulum> yeah
[21:10] <Pendulum> from my call with jono last week it sounds like it was one of those things where no one realised how much work it was until they were in the middle of it
[21:11] <Pendulum> part of me wants to write something about 'accessibility as 2nd class citizen... again', but I don't want to discount all the good work that has been done
[21:11] <charlie-tca> but they keep praising themselves for how great it works for "everyone"
[21:11] <maco> ie, you're not people
[21:11] <maco> fuuuuuun
[21:12] <Pendulum> tbh, it doesn't even work for 'everyone' in the general sense
[21:12] <charlie-tca> Maybe if they had made Ubuntu accessible to start with, instead of pretending, it would have worked better
[21:12] <Pendulum> well, I think a lot of regressions have shown up
[21:12] <Pendulum> I really remember accessibility in Ubuntu being loads easier in 2007 when I started using it
[21:13] <charlie-tca> We just have to keep trying then, I guess. Maybe we did not push hard enough for a while to make sure things were happening
[21:13] <Riddell> revu and testing needed http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/p/qt-at-spi
[21:14] <Pendulum> Riddell: can you send an e-mail to the accessibility mailing list as well?
[21:14] <charlie-tca> Okay, I am going pull some weeds, I think the ground is thawed today.
[21:14] <Pendulum> charlie-tca: lucky you. We got an inch of snow earlier today :-/
[21:14] <charlie-tca> We haven't had any for at least two days already :-)
[21:14] <Pendulum> we hadn't had any for a week
[21:15] <Pendulum> and it even got up to the upper 60s on friday
[21:15] <Pendulum> but now I can't see the grass again :(
[21:15] <charlie-tca> stayed in the 40's last night too
[21:15] <charlie-tca> Yeah, gotta try to pull weeds before it snows again 
[21:15] <Riddell> Pendulum: do I need to be subscribed?
[21:16] <Pendulum> Riddell: I don't think so, but I"m not 100% sure
[21:19] <pleia2> is onboard an easily selectable option for gdm yet?
[21:20] <pleia2> I was working on a tablet last week and the guy just ended up setting up auto-login instead of bothering :\
[21:20] <Pendulum> pleia2: it's almost impossible to use on Unity
[21:20] <Pendulum> pretty much what's most likely to happen is accessible installs for Natty will end up going back to stock GNOME
[21:20] <Pendulum> rather than even trying to load Unity
[21:20] <pleia2> with Unity's alleged aim at touchscreen devices too I think this is a major problem beyond accessibility
[21:20] <Pendulum> yep
[21:21] <AlanBell> but unity hasn't started at the GDM screen
[21:21] <pleia2> as it is now in 10.10 when you install onboard it doesn't even show up in the gnome menu, I had to use the menu editor to enable the section of the menu, it was awful
[21:21] <Pendulum> pleia2: yep
[21:22] <Pendulum> we can count that among the regressions I've noticed since I started using Ubuntu
[21:22] <pleia2> :(
[21:22] <Pendulum> I believe the arguement was cleaning up clutter
[21:22] <Pendulum> it used to be a lot easier to configure screen magnification and text-to-speech in a GUI as well
[21:22] <pleia2> yeah, it's tossed in a whole different section of the gnome menu which isn't enabled by default
[21:23] <Pendulum> (I still don't know how to configure screen magnification in a GUI way if you don't have Compiz-mag)
[21:23] <Pendulum> I'm not sure if that change was a GNOME one or an ubuntu one
[21:23] <maco> Riddell: doh. im really failing at packaging the things i say im going to package this cycle, huh? :(
[21:23] <pleia2> (why it's not just in the regular accessories portion of the menu confounds me)
[21:25] <Riddell> maco: time for a revu!
[21:25] <maco> Riddell: when i get home from the diddleedee music
[21:25]  * maco makes note to self
[21:25] <Pendulum> pleia2: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/onboard/+bug/275450
[21:25] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 275450 in onboard "menu items missing on fresh install of Ubuntu" [High,Triaged]
[21:25] <Riddell> maco: why are you IRCing from diddly dee music?
[21:26] <maco> Riddell: i'm not. i'm heading there in a half hour though
[21:26] <maco> and my natty machine is at home (and i am not)
[21:27] <pleia2> Pendulum: thanks :)
[21:27] <Pendulum> pleia2: any chance you'd be interested in blogging about the issues regarding onBoard/tablets/etc.?
[21:28] <Pendulum> (just to get another face out there because I swear people are going to start turning off when they notice it's me talking about accessibility against ;-) )
[21:28] <pleia2> Pendulum: actually, yes, let me get some notes together and drop an email to the guy whose tablet I worked on to see if he has any additions
[21:28] <pleia2> lol
[21:28] <Pendulum> *again
[21:28] <Pendulum> it's what happens about physical world access issues so I kinda expect it to happen online as well
[21:28]  * maco would like to note that KMag seems to work pretty well
[21:29] <maco> Riddell:  do we install KMag by default?
[21:29] <Pendulum> my memory is that gnome-mag used to work really well. I just haven't figured out how to use it without the command line these days
[21:29] <pleia2> Pendulum: this bug report is fascinating, I understand the progression now
[21:29] <Pendulum> yeah. I came across it a couple weeks ago
[21:30] <pleia2> and hugs to charlie-tca for all his great replies on it :)
[21:30] <Riddell> maco: apt-cache show kmag | grep Task   says we do
[21:32] <maco> Riddell: good
[21:34] <AlanBell> Pendulum: orca has magnification but it is *terrible* on my high res screen, it might work better with a smaller number of pixels to throw about
[21:34] <AlanBell> the clever thing it does is text cursor position tracking
[21:34] <AlanBell> in gtk text fields at least, and have seen how it does that
[21:34] <maco> i wonder if i could use the computer without glasses if i used kmag... will need to experiment
[21:35] <AlanBell> I think the same process can be hacked into the compiz zoom plugin to give that text cursor following ability too, but that is in C, which is too hard for my little brain to cope with
[22:19] <hajour> wauw very much to read back
[22:20] <hajour> there seams to be some problems whit Unity in maverick
[22:21] <hajour> the person who told me that is now re-logging i have told to come here to tell it .maybe 1 of you know a solution or where he can fill in a bug.or what is causing it
[22:22] <hajour> AlanBell, charlie-tca  Pendulum pleia2 
[22:22] <hajour> see above
[22:22] <charlie-tca> hajour: Unity is not accessible. That person should be using gnome instead
[22:22] <hajour> i don't know who of you know something about this
[22:22] <charlie-tca> Unity was not default in Maverick
[22:22] <AlanBell> hajour: what is the problem they are experiencing
[22:22] <hajour> so thats why i called different names
[22:23] <AlanBell> I am using unity in Maverick
[22:24] <hajour> i have asked to come to accessibility
[22:24] <hajour> to tell you
[22:25] <MrChrisDruif> Hai everyone, hajour drags me all around :P
[22:25] <AlanBell> hi MrChrisDruif 
[22:26] <MrChrisDruif> No offense ofc hajour
[22:26] <MrChrisDruif> How's it going AlanBell?
[22:26] <hajour> :)
[22:27] <hajour> now you can tell them what issues there are MrChrisDruif 
[22:28] <MrChrisDruif> Well, I had some custom shortcuts (Like <Super>1 for going to desktop 1) which didn't work anymore...
[22:28] <MrChrisDruif> Also the unity in maverick somehow also disabled all my window effects etc...
[22:29] <AlanBell> yes, unity in maverick uses mutter rather than compiz so you won't get window effects
[22:29] <AlanBell> one reason they rewrote it for Natty
[22:29] <MrChrisDruif> That's what I thought
[22:30] <AlanBell> if you hold the super key it shows the shortcuts that it grabs for the dock icons
e was for expo, which obviously didn't work anymore
[22:30] <AlanBell> yeah, that is a compiz shortcut
[22:30] <AlanBell> works on Natty
[22:30] <MrChrisDruif> Yeah, if you hold super you can go to the apps running on the side
[22:35] <hajour> so problem solved?:)
[22:35] <MrChrisDruif> Well, like I said, maverick's unity != natty's unity :P
[22:36] <hajour> ok :)
[22:37] <MrChrisDruif> Is it possible to install natty's unity on maverick?
[22:37] <AlanBell> nope
[22:37] <AlanBell> they had plans to do that but there wasn't enough compiz to make it run
[22:37] <MrChrisDruif> That's a shame
[22:37] <hajour> i wanted to  say i don't know or it is ubuntu part but the abrowser dos not work good
[22:38] <hajour> if you switch to a other page whit many pics on it go really slowly
[22:38] <hajour> and you get screen freeze or grey squires
[22:50] <charlie-tca> maco: might want to look into bug 681412 also for Onboard
[22:50] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 681412 in at-spi "Can not enter password for Administrative tasks using Onboard Keyboard" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/681412
[23:02] <hajour>  i go read my mail.if someone want to speak me or need me or what ever do not forget to call my name in line then ok :)
[23:13] <charlie-tca> for those tracking bugs about accessibility in Unity - bug 739812
[23:13] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 739812 in unity "Must use hardware keyboard to perform search for applications in Unity" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/739812
[23:25] <Pendulum> charlie-tca: feel free to subscribe me to any bugs like that
[23:25] <charlie-tca> okay
[23:25] <charlie-tca> I lost the old one for that, so I had to file a new bug
[23:26] <Pendulum> (yes, I did just say I want more bug mail ;-) )
[23:27] <charlie-tca> I get enough for three or four people, myself