=== Amaranth_ is now known as Amaranth
lucazadeHi!  Can anyone enlighten me on this bug 726369?  There is also a video with the issue attached to bug report09:20
ubot4`Launchpad bug 726369 in xorg-server "graphical glitches in menu (natty) (affects: 4) (heat: 47)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/72636909:20
RAOFHm.  That should probably be filed against xorg-server in Ubuntu :)09:32
RAOFlucazade: Does that manifest with unity/compiz?09:34
lucazadeRAOF it manifests only with metacity.. with compiz is not visible09:35
RAOFYah, suspected as much.09:35
lucazadetried clean installation on different machines.. same issue09:36
RAOFHow about if you turn on metacity compositing?09:37
lucazadelet me try!09:37
lucazadestill present09:38
tjaaltoni see that with savage09:39
lucazadewhere is the issue? who is responsible?09:39
lucazadewhich component i mean09:40
RAOFEither X or the driver, I'd guess.09:41
lucazadeI can reproduce it with every gfx card (gts250, radeon 7500, gma500, vbox)09:42
lucazadei've seen it when xorg 1.9.99 came out09:42
RAOFBy that I mean either X or the driver could backfill pixmaps.09:42
RAOFgma500!  Lucky man :)09:42
lucazadelol really lucky09:43
lucazadepixman maybe?09:43
tseliotRAOF: are we still using that patch to make X backfill pixmaps?09:48
tjaaltonwasn't it reverted upstream09:49
tjaaltonin 1.10-branch09:49
RAOFtseliot: Nope.09:50
tseliotah, if it was reverted then I have no clue ;)09:50
tjaaltonhmm not that one, but post-1.10 there's this: http://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/commit/?h=server-1.10-branch&id=edcf115800fef79d956c8e3d3e3c46a30cf7753809:52
=== yofel_ is now known as yofel
cndbryceh, RAOF: I've had two people now complain about the new kinetic scrolling in synaptics19:43
cndbecause of the "scroll events as buttons" interface, it does wonky things when you have kinetic scrolling and then press a modifier key like ctrl19:44
cndif you see more people complain about it, we should consider disabling it by default in an xorg.conf.d snippet19:45
brycehcnd, ok19:59
brycehcnd, just "argh change!" type complaints, or definite usability regressions?19:59
cndthere is a real bug that is exposed20:00
cndbut there's no way to fix it20:01
cndother than completely overhaul scrolling in X20:01
cndI'll try to explain :)20:01
cndwith kinetic scrolling, if you flick two fingers on a trackpad to scroll, the momentum continues the scrolling behavior for a bit20:01
cndso scroll button events are sent every so often, slowing down as though there's a friction force20:02
cndif you flick like that, and the scroll is still going, then you press the ctrl button, something unexpected may happen20:02
cndlike zooming20:02
cndto be fair, os x has issues here too20:03
cndfor example, if you have a magic mouse with kinetic scrolling on20:03
cndyou can flick it to scroll20:03
cndand move your mouse to a different window20:03
cndand the scroll will continue in the new window20:03
cndwhich is probably not intended20:03
cndit's just a corner case that shows how broken server side scroll handling is :)20:03
brycehmmrph threaded scrolling20:04
cndhopefully we can get utouch integrated into toolkits in the next cycle to fix this20:04
brycehcnd, for now could you add a note about this to the release notes?20:04
cndbryceh, how do I do that?20:05
brycehI agree at this stage it sounds unlikely to be easily fixable20:05
cndbryceh, there's one course we could do: disable kinetic scrolling by default20:05
cndbut I'd only advocate that if enough people complain20:05
brycehcnd, its a wiki page just edit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NattyNarwhal/TechnicalOverview and add a note in the appropriate section20:06
brycehor maybe add a section after Graphics and display20:06
bryceh"Mice and Keyboards" or some such20:07
brycehwould be nice to call it "Input devices" but that's probably too jargonny20:07
cndI wonder if it wouldn't be better to just throw it into graphics and display20:09
cndit's an X display system issue, though the categorization is jargony too20:10
brycehsure that'd be fine20:11
brycehI need to comb through that list and take out issues we've solved lately.  that should condense it into less of a wall of bullets20:12
brycehRAOF, what do you think we should do about bug #710762?  I'm still sort of on the fence21:44
ubot4`Launchpad bug 710762 in xserver-xorg-input-evdev (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "Middle mouse button no longer works (affects: 3) (heat: 88)" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/71076221:44
RAOFSo, we have the option of adding unnecessary latency to all mouse clicks if we turn emulation back on.21:49
RAOFOr some people don't get middle-mouse clicking.21:49
RAOFActually, we had a third option, didn't we - quirk on emulation for known 2-button mice?21:50
brycehfwiw, given that there's been almost zero complaints since we made the change, I'm a lot less worried about if we just leave the change in21:52
RAOFIt's not exactly an obvious feature :)21:52
brycehI'm almost to a point of saying just plunk a comment about it in the release notes and call it done21:52
brycehif we have a way to quirk the 2-button mice, then maybe we could slap some bug handling directions in wiki for crafting quirks and leave it at that21:53
RAOFThat seems reasonable to me.21:54
RAOFThe qurik would be a udev tag + xorg.conf snippet, right?21:55
jcristau2 button mice exist?21:55
brycehRAOF, something like that21:55
RAOFjcristau: Apparenty so.  Cannonical even sells one!21:55
tjaaltonbryceh: I'd go with that option (leave it as-is, add a not to the relnotes)21:56
brycehtjaalton, RAOF, ok if either of you can give me the details on how to do the quirks I'll take care of writing it up and closing out the bug21:57
tjaaltonthe snippet is in the evdev commit21:58
tjaalton..and on the bug :)21:59
tjaaltonthat's all there is, no need for udev rules21:59
RAOFBut that snippet will apply to everything, right?22:00
tjaaltonit could match the identifier22:00
RAOFThe udev rules are so that you can add a IM_A_STUPID_TWO_BUTTON_MOUSE tag and have the snippet only apply when that tag is found.22:00
tjaaltonbut there is no way to know when to set that22:00
jcristauRAOF: doesn't really matter, i think, people with multiple mice can live with the latency for the 3 button one22:00
tjaaltonautomatically, i mean22:01
RAOFtjaalton: Right.  We'd just accumulate a bunch of matches to apply that to.  Although if the xorg.conf snippet has enough data to weed those out by itself, that would be easier.22:02
tjaaltonRAOF: yeah, the same could be done just on the xorg.conf snippet. but if it's left for the user to set, we can just point to the generic one22:03
tjaaltonsigh @ spurious doubleclicks22:04
brycehwhat do we match on?22:06
tjaaltonis what the bug/commit has22:07
brycehno, how do we distinguish between a mouse that needs the snippet from one that doesn't?22:08
RAOFBut in this case, we'd want to match on a hardware identifier.22:08
brycehlike, we know the ubuntu mouse needs it, so how do we identify when one of those is plugged in?22:08
brycehas opposed to requiring the user always having to manually paste the file in themselves22:08
brycehwhat's that match against?  lsinput out?22:08
tjaaltonfor instance22:10
RAOFtjaalton: How many product ids are going to clash?22:10
tjaaltondepends :)22:10
tjaaltonMatchUSBID uses ids22:11
tjaaltonMP the product name22:11
tjaaltonfiner grained control with udeb tagging and MatchTag22:12
RAOFGiven that this mouse identifies itself as “Logitech USB wheel mouse”, I feel confident in saying that matching on product name is likely to have overlaps :)22:12
jcristauMatchProduct "PS/2 Mouse" ftw22:13
tjaaltonyes, so if we really are going to ship a snippet for the two button mice, it should be by using udev & MatchTag22:13
tjaaltonbut I thought it was about the general snippet for the relnotes22:13
brycehfor the relnotes I'll just point to the bug report22:15
brycehor the wiki page22:15
tjaaltonthe udev rule might even be upstreamable22:16
brycehbut I've a feeling users are mostly going to consider "write xorg.confage" to be the same as not having a solution22:16
tjaaltonsolution to what?-)22:16
brycehtjaalton, solution to their two button blues22:17
tjaaltonwe can't please everybody22:17
brycehtrue, but we can choose whether to support the hardware we sell at canonical.com ;-)22:19
RAOFThat's easy.  We just ship an appropriate udev rule for it :)22:19
tjaaltonyes, so udev rule & xorg.conf snippet to evdev should cover it22:19
tjaaltonand that's easy to expand22:19
brycehalright great, what's the udev rule?22:21
seb128bryceh, hey22:22
RAOFI'd start with the rule in synaptics.22:22
seb128bryceh, so that bug about memory usage issue on nvidia due to cairo 22:23
tjaaltonbryceh: I can create one, if only someone with the mouse can provide a dump of udev22:23
brycehtjaalton, thanks22:23
seb128bryceh, it's due to build cairo with gl22:23
brycehseb128, ok, you can close the bug report, probably not worth worrying about - seems to not cause any serious problems.22:25
seb128bryceh, it's the second tradeoff we get from building cairo with gl (it also brings some extra things on the CD)22:25
seb128bryceh, you think? it seems it's going to impact some users22:26
seb128bryceh, I'm pondering suggesting we should roll back from that for this cycle22:28
seb128while having wayland in universe is nice it's of no real user for most users22:28
seb128seems the cost on the default installation is not worth the win22:28
seb128like we impose extra depends on the CD and extra memory usage for some nvidia users just to be able to get something in universe that is of no real benefit to any user22:29
seb128I'm open to comments from people there though or to discussion22:29
RAOFI wouldn't have any qualms about dropping wayland from universe.  Then again, I didn't do the work to *put* it there :)22:31
brycehseb128, well, I'd have qualms, it was a lot of work to get it enabled22:31
RAOFAlthough we'll have to deal with this cairo-gl problem sooner or later anyway, so it should be re-enabled once oneiric is open.22:32
seb128bryceh, the work is not wasted, we can have wayland in a ppa this cycle and bring i back next cycle22:32
seb128it's not like the actual upload to universe what was costed much or that the review comments will not be useful for next cycle22:33
brycehseb128, no, it would be wasted; the whole point was to make it easy for people to install it, and making libcairo not have gl forces them back to rebuilding everything from git22:33
seb128or to use a ppa?22:34
brycehno, a ppa wouldn't work22:34
brycehI mean, it has been too much effort to maintain it in a ppa for natty22:34
seb128who is going to want to install something as new as wayland using a snapshot from a stable distro22:34
brycehevery time libcairo has a change, it has to be re-updated in the ppa22:34
seb128well, once natty turn stable it's not going to happen a lot22:34
seb128you might have to 2 trivial uploads if we sru a fix or two22:35
brycehseb128, what are those depends you think it added?22:36
seb128it seems weird to me that people who want to try wayland will be happy to get an old version rather than a daily or recent build22:36
seb128I'm not on my natty box right know to check, we tracked it with pitti after a3, some extra gl things22:36
seb128let me check if I find the irc log from irclogs.u.c22:37
brycehseb128, the thing they're happy about is not having to rebuild mesa, cairo, etc. etc. from git.  It's not that they prefer an old version, it's that there is a packaged version at all22:37
brycehseb128, further, this is viewed by upstream as a contribution ubuntu has made for upstream; if it is disabled after all then it makes us look silly22:38
RAOFDo we have any idea of what the memory is used for?  IIUC, applications need to explicitly select a GL surface for any GL to be used - is this just overhead from *linking* to nvidia's libGL?22:40
seb128ok, I don't find it in the log, it was something libglish22:40
seb128one of the libcairo2 libelg or libgl depends I guess22:41
seb128bryceh, ok, fine, I will think about it, you seem to really care about it22:41
brycehseb128, ok thanks22:42
seb128I still think it's not a fair tradeoff for our users, we impact the default installation and nvidia memory use for something which is not user ready22:42
RAOFseb128: I'd guess it's libegl1-mesa that you're thinking of.22:42
seb128those who want to try wayland are probably really tech users22:42
seb128RAOF, could be yes22:42
brycehRAOF, I've wondered the same - it seems there may be a real bug there, non-GL apps shouldn't be affected by the mere presence of GL functionality22:42
seb128I can't really check now if that would be installed without cairo bringing it in22:43
RAOFbryceh: Right.  There is a real bug there which we'll need to either fix, or ensure gets fixed, at some point fairly soon.22:43
RAOFI'd be surprised if anything else pulled in libegl1.  I'm surprised *cairo* pulls in egl!22:43
seb128so that was likely it22:44
seb128is that any way we could figure if that memory use issue is affecting every nvidia users?22:50
seb128and maybe to get if figured for natty?22:50
* RAOF hunts around for his spare geforce 660022:51
seb128I'm not sure we should spend time on that for natty rather than focus on unity22:51
seb128but if that's affecting nvidia users and not only one of them I suggest that's something we need to address one way or the other22:51
RAOFIt looks like it should be easy to tell if it affects a given system, so I can check mine.22:52
brycehRAOF, tjaalton: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Quirks#Input%20Quirks23:16
* RAOF wonders whether his freshly broken graphics are due to the card or the drivers.23:22
RAOFAaah.  I missed a power connector!23:23
* RAOF grumbles softly about the insane power requirements of gpus.23:27
brycehthey may soon require a power supply of their own23:28
RAOFThis is an old card, too.23:32
RAOFMerely a 7800GT.23:32
RAOFDear lord it's loud, too.23:32
RAOFHm.  Doesn't appear to like plymouth much, either.23:33
RAOFMmm, the glorious whiteness of vesafb.23:34
RAOF:(  And it doesn't parse my edid.23:42

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