=== doko_ is now known as doko
dokoslangasek: now after the multiarch email, should it be safe for a rebuild test?09:22
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=== ogra_ is now known as ogra
iuliancjwatson: Could you also sync kadu 0.9.0-1, please?  bug #73933512:43
ubot4`Launchpad bug 739335 in kadu (Ubuntu) "[FFe] Sync kadu 0.9.0-1 (universe) from Debian unstable (main) (affects: 1) (heat: 10)" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/73933512:43
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cjwatsoniulian: done13:23
iuliancjwatson: Ta.14:10
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cjwatsonrebuilding Ubuntu desktop following the overrides fix from earlier14:59
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didrockscjwatson: hey, so what Neil propose is to roll a tarball over night on Wednesday (once the US guys integrated this work), then we all test the work on Thursday morning  and do the upload right away, what do you think?16:12
cjwatsonwhen have you done the upload to natty before?16:13
didrockscjwatson: you mean, last unity release? it was on Thursday16:13
cjwatsonwhen on Thursday?16:13
didrockswas at 4 UTC IIRC16:14
cjwatson4am or 4pm?16:14
didrocks4pm, we aim at afternoon release for the weekly uploads16:14
didrocksbut not for this beta one16:14
seb128cjwatson, usual schedule is that njpatel rolls the tarball in the uk afternoon and that didrocks pick it up and upload before eod16:15
didrockswe will aim for an upload at 9/10am UTC16:15
njpatelyeah, I'll roll before you guys wake up in CET16:15
cjwatsonit's not ideal, but it is an improvement16:16
cjwatsonthat would presumably mean we get some testing throughout the EU day16:16
cjwatsonis there anything that can be done to increase the probability that if things go wrong we can move back by reverting changes rather than having to move forward and debug?16:16
seb128landing usually takes some 3 hours16:16
seb128i.e nux needs to be built and published than unity builds16:16
didrockscjwatson: we still can revert both libnux and unity (as unity is the only nux consumer)16:18
cjwatsonbut that's an all-or-nothing thing16:19
didrocksand as compiz release will be today, hopefully, we won't depend on that ABI breakage16:19
cjwatsonI agree that moving the compiz release forward significantly decreases the surface area of things that might go wrong on Thu16:19
didrocksbasically, libunity/dee/places are independent16:19
didrockslet me check we don't have melt changes there16:20
seb128going one version backward doesn't seem the best way to move toward a solid natty release anyway so downgrading doesn't seem something we should plan for16:20
seb128we never had a weekly release broken enough that we had to rollback or that we couldn't have shipped a CD with it until now16:21
skaetseb128,  we need a fall back, given the scope of changes coming in at the last minute, and the visibility of this beta16:22
didrocksseb128: agreed on that, we had extra crashers, but they all have been fixed in due time when we saw it was a wide impact16:22
seb128skaet, we have weekly rollouts, that one doesn't seem to be especially disruptive to me?16:22
seb128it's never over a week work and tested by a complete team during the week16:23
skaetseb128,  its the scrollbars landing so late, and we really don't have a full development week here, but rather just a couple of days.16:23
seb128skaet, we have some annoying crashers that collect duplicate in the current version though, I would really rather look to a way of moving forward and getting issues fixed than planning on staying backward16:23
dokoskaet: I would like to ask for a standing freeze exception, mostly for universe packages to fix ld-no-add-needed and gcc-4.5-ftbfs, introducing new upstream versions with syncs/merges if fixes are available in debian, as long as we don't introduce new library sonames. would that generally be ok with you?16:23
seb128skaet, scrollbars have nothing to do with unity though16:23
seb128skaet, they don't seem on track to land this week to me, if we speak about overlay scrollbars16:24
didrocksthose changing are totally independant to nux/unity16:24
cjwatsonseb128: at least some previous weekly releases before milestones haven't worked well enough to make the milestone releasable until late Monday night, which really eats into validation time16:25
cjwatsona few bug fixes are one thing, that wouldn't be a big deal16:25
cjwatsonbeing badly broken on Monday is a problem16:25
seb128well usually they did plan 2 released, one on thursday and one bug fix one on monday16:25
didrockscjwatson: we didn't push broken things in natty…16:25
seb128and that's because they were still landing features16:25
seb128that's not the case there16:26
seb128we are over feature freeze16:26
cjwatsonerr, multitouch!16:26
njpatelwhat about it?16:26
cjwatsonnew feature not yet in natty, landing in this update, right?16:26
seb128cjwatson, that should makes any difference on normal desktop installs though16:26
cjwatsonsure, but even so, it's a new feature being landed16:26
cjwatsonI will have to look back through history to find out what happened, but I'm certain that we have had serious issues on the Monday of a milestone this cycle16:26
seb128cjwatson, well seems you guys are freaking out for some reasons I don't understand16:27
cjwatsonI'm not freaking out, I'm trying to minimise risk16:27
seb128cjwatson, right as said those were weeks with 2 releases planned16:27
cjwatsonbug fixes on the Monday of a milestone should be a last resort, not a plan16:27
seb128one to land features being short on time, one to fix issues16:27
seb128that's not the case this week16:27
cjwatsoner, on the Monday of a beta, sorry16:27
seb128there is no hurry feature landing16:27
cjwatsonso is what you're saying that the Unity release this Thursday will be small and much more risk-free than previous releases?16:28
didrockscjwatson: that was for alpha…16:28
seb128the alpha2 rollouts being done on monday were planned this way to give extra time to land features for the thursday16:28
cjwatsondidrocks: yes; we're looking for assurance that this will not be like that16:28
didrockscjwatson: and only bug fixes. Otherwise, freezing on Monday morning has no meaning for alpha16:28
didrockscjwatson: and as I told you, it's not planned for beta as we have one week freeze16:28
cjwatsonso what is the character of this Thursday release?16:29
cjwatsonis it mainly new features or mainly bug fixes?16:29
seb128cjwatson, it's not a trivial update but it's focussed on bug fixing and stabilization where alpha were focussed on rushing to land features missing still16:29
seb128it's mainly bug fixing and stabilization16:29
seb128with some ui tweaks16:29
cjwatsonif it's not something you're planning to *have* to fix up four days later, I am less worried about it16:29
cjwatsonI'd still like it as early as possible to minimise risk16:30
seb128and a bit of new things (the ffe which got granted)16:30
seb128cjwatson, right, the alpha landings were scheduled this way, land thing half broken and do a round of fixing on monday16:30
cjwatsonbut can you see why the release team is taking a once-bitten-twice-shy approach?16:30
seb128that's not the case there16:30
seb128the release is planned to be stable16:30
cjwatsonit's hard to distinguish planned-breakage from just-plain-breakage16:31
cjwatsonfrom our point of view16:31
cjwatsonwe just see that it made us be hugely stressed for three days16:31
seb128<cjwatson> but can you see why the release team is taking a once-bitten-twice-shy approach?16:31
seb128though I didn't realize that people got really bitten before16:32
cjwatsonso we're just trying to make sure that we're not going to be hugely stressed for this reason at least, this time round :)16:32
njpatelseb128, didrocks Just to be clear, we've already agreed not to do a Monday release right?16:32
seb128I though that stabilizing alpha on mondays was a clearly communicated and agreed decision between teams16:32
seb128njpatel, yes, we need something stable tomorrow night16:32
didrocksnjpatel: right, as that for quite some time already…16:32
seb128njpatel, beta needs extra testing and stability16:33
didrocksand there is no released planned on Monday: https://launchpad.net/unity/+series16:33
didrockscontrary to the other time16:33
njpatelYeah, this all breaks for US/EU people but whatever16:33
njpatelthat's fine, I'll release before Thurs AM16:33
skaetseb128,  which specific FFes  are you refering to for the new things?   can you be specific on when each part will land?    all on Thurs AM?  or some before?16:34
seb128didrocks, do you have a list of the ffe pending?16:34
cjwatsonand to be clear, we don't object if it turns out that you absolutely *need* to fix something on Monday - the distinction is whether you're planning for it, or whether it's something that comes up16:34
seb128njpatel, ^16:34
seb128cjwatson, right, nobody planned to be late for this round16:34
skaet+1 on what cjwatson said.  ^^16:34
seb128alpha were rushs because we were behind16:35
cjwatsonwith the intention that we can do an initial validation pass on Monday16:35
njpatelskaet, we land them in trunk as the week goes on and roll on thurs morning normally (so they get testing through the week)16:35
didrocksseb128: the latest one is the MT support: https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/73760116:35
ubot4`Launchpad bug 737601 in unity (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "Restore MT support in Unity (affects: 1) (heat: 879)" [Undecided,In progress]16:35
seb128skaet, ^16:35
njpatelskaet, so we've landed a big change already, one more from me today, and then minor bit stomorrow (and testing) until release tomorrow evening16:35
skaetnjpatel,  thanks,  this is what I was looking to understand.16:36
njpatelcjwatson, We're working on the idea that we're not allowed to upload past thursday morning, unless we've broken the world16:36
njpateland we're not planning to do that (april 1st is still some time away ;)16:36
* skaet notes release is on March 31st... 16:37
seb128skaet, you mentioned scrollbars, that's another story16:37
cjwatson*beta 1* release is on March 31st :-)16:37
* njpatel makes sure that the launcher icons turning into pictures of Mark is still working16:37
seb128skaet, but that shouldn't have any impact on the default installation16:37
cjwatson(having gone "oh god it isn't is it?")16:37
dokoskaet: I would like to ask for a standing freeze exception, mostly for universe packages to fix ld-no-add-needed and gcc-4.5-ftbfs, introducing new upstream versions with syncs/merges if fixes are available in debian, as long as we don't introduce new library sonames. would that generally be ok with you?16:38
skaetseb128,  and there shouldn't be any impact or interaction from the new changes with 2-D ?16:39
skaetdoko,  sorry to not getting to your early post.   trying to follow the thread here.16:39
seb128skaet, from what? scrollbars? or unity 3d?16:39
skaetseb128,  either ;)16:40
seb128skaet, reply to doko, when we can continue on unity and scrollbar after that16:40
seb128skaet, what do you call 2d? unity 2d or GNOME classic? ;-)16:40
seb128but no, nothing should impact on either of those16:40
dokono haste, if you are in a meeting ...16:40
skaetdoko,  just trying to settle issues with the release... and am thinking about the implications of what you're asking.16:41
skaetdoko,  I don't think we can take a broad FFE approach, uploadable at any time approach right now.  However there where be windows of time, where getting the fixes in should be ok, as long as they are just fixing the ld-no-add-needed, and gcc-4.5 ftbfs.  Its what else might be included in the packages with those fixes, compared to whats in the repository that concerns me.16:43
dokoskaet: sure, I know, but we'll probably release with a lot of ftbfs without such an approach16:44
skaetThat being said,  if the package is in universe a broader FFEs for those actual ones, is probably ok.  If its not in universe - would like it explicitly FFe's and implications scrutinized a bit more.16:45
skaetdoko, can we keep the uploads down until after the beta 1 is out, and then revisit on the friday meeting?16:47
skaetI'd like to get the ftbfs fixed as well, just they can't go in, in an ad hoc manner.16:48
dokoskaet: I didn't ask for ad-hoc16:50
skaetdoko,  I misunderstood broad FFE then.16:50
skaetdoko,  what is specific proposal for the changes to universe,  ( when uploads ),  and what is it for the others.  (reacting to the word "mostly universe") in you original request).16:51
* skaet looks at format of above line and hangs her head.16:52
dokoskaet: s/universe/not main/16:53
skaetdoko,  so request is for blanket approval for FFEs in non main archives only?16:55
dokoskaet: yes16:55
dokoand without library transitions16:55
* skaet thinking....16:56
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skaetdoko, if the changes are only to fix the ftbfs and not introducing new features from the current version,   we should be fine then.   If there is functionality change in together with the fixes, would prefer those get considered on a case by case basis or wait to Oneiric.  If you avoid uploads during the beta freeze windows, esp. if we're having to do alot of rebuilds to get the images, that would be appreciated.17:01
skaets/ftbfs/ ftbfs and ld-no-add-needed/17:02
dokoskaet: ok, will file rc reports then, please feel free to re-assign these ;)17:02
skaetdoko,  fair enough, and thanks for pushing for this.  getting these ftbfs cleaned up is a good thing.17:02
skaetseb128,  if nothing thats coming should cause a regression on unity 2d or GNOME classic,  am happy.    :)17:06
seb128skaet, ok great ;-)17:20
seb128skaet, btw you were mentioning scrollbars before, did you have any specific concern about those? do they need to land in beta if they land in natty?17:28
skaetI had thought they'd be showing up this week.   However if they're not stable/debugged enough, would like to very carefully work out when their landing.17:29
skaetseb128 ^^17:29
seb128skaet, ok, I'm still waiting on an update patch to gtk to review and the bug will need a ffe approval once that's done17:30
seb128then we need the new source to be uploaded to universe, reviewed, approved, etc17:30
skaetok,  lets over communicate a bit on this one, and judge the tactical window based on when things are ready and solid enough from your side.17:31
seb128skaet, well I'm not happy that we have to ship a gtk hack in ubuntu but it doesn't seem it's going to be an issue for the distro stability so it's already something17:36
seb128i.e the patch is not likely to break things, it's just that it's not done the right way and hackish17:37
seb128I've no strong opinion about the lib itself yet but since that's an opt-in thing we can still evaluate how stable it is17:38
skaetseb 128,  expectation set for the release notes is then that the implementation will improve in oneiric,  and interface is provided as a prototype?  will be on stand by for more data on the lib itself.17:41
seb128skaet, ok17:44
seb128I will keep you updated if I get new infos on that front17:45
skaetsournds good17:48
skaetsounds, even17:49
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dokoskaet, ScottK, Riddell: what's the state of kde on armel?18:33
skaetdoko,   I remember seeing that they fail to build in the daily reports, but am not sure of I've heard a root cause, yet.    Went to go look up the recent reports, but I appear to have been a bit enthusiastic in cleaning my inbox this morning. :P18:40
cjwatsonhttp://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/livefs-build-logs/ is your friend18:41
skaetcjwatson,  awesome!  :D18:41
lamontScottK: postfix 2.8.2-1 uploaded to debian... did you want me to ask for a sync,  or upload or ??19:06
Riddelldoko: mostly good I believe except for packages which use opengl19:19
dokoRiddell: hmm, just saw a subversion build failure:19:22
dokoThe following packages have unmet dependencies:19:22
doko kdelibs5-dev : Depends: kdoctools (= 4:4.6.1-0ubuntu2) but it is not going to be installed19:22
dokoE: Broken packages19:22
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lamontI find that I am annoyed at the arm builders... quiescing the whole lot of them, then I'm going to make them happy , and put them all back in the pool together.19:41
Riddelldoko: indeed kde4libs failed and there's no logs so I don't know why20:05
slangasekgiven that it's armel, perhaps it's related to lamont's above comment about builders being unhappy20:10
slangasekI've requested a retry20:11
slangasek(at least then we'll get a log, hopefully)20:12
lamontif it was building before I just stabbed them all, well, that'd be why there's no log20:14
=== bjf[afk] is now known as bjf
lamontis the pile of builds on i386 a translations update pile?20:26
ScottKdoko: As Riddell said, the issue right now is packages that use GL.  I'm not sure where they are on getting fixed.  I think slangasek had someone looking into that.23:12
dokoScottK: well, lets hope that kde4libs gets built first ...23:12
ScottKdoko: Sure.  It's built before so there's no reason to think it won't.23:13

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