[00:32] sweet, Foord seems cool with the interview, pubbing it mightily. [00:50] snap-l: we've passed more s3 bandwith than all of last month, with 10 days still to go :) [00:54] DBO: email on the way for google doc, and snap-l it's up there [00:58] rick_h_: That is awesome! [00:59] I need to get that script up for the traffic on that from s3 [00:59] ugh [00:59] maybe just pay the guy with the solution, just hate giving out the aws key [01:01] wow, 80 visits on one day [01:16] If you haven't checked out the Mastodon LIve at the Aragon DVD / CD combo, you're seriously missing out [11:52] Ahoy [11:54] morning [11:56] party [11:56] rick_h_ and snap-l: a bit of (not-very-)constructive criticism... the Pycon wrapup podcast? Worst sound levels, ever. If I turn the volume up enough to hear rick_h_ I get my eardrums blasted by the loudest guy at the table. If I turn it down to where I can listen without pain, I can't hear anything rick_h_ says. [11:57] wolfger: yea, I think I apologize for it in the post [11:57] it was a mess [11:57] we had a big room, peopel kept turning around talking behind them, etc [11:57] I tried to keep adjusting the levels to keep up [11:57] very sorry, lessons learned, won't happen again [11:58] Sure, I understand it's a logistical nightmare. :-) [11:58] it gits a bit better once you get into it [11:58] but even still :/ [11:58] but it was considered good material we wanted to still put out [11:58] Oh, I finished it on my ride in. [11:58] and no chance to rerecord it [11:58] and I'm sure road noise played a factor in my displeasure [11:58] heh, well I take 100% responsibility [11:59] I didn't do a good job forcing people to talk into the mics [11:59] and I played with levels on the hardware too much to compensate which just made it worse [11:59] unfortunately it was my second run with the new gear [12:00] and been a lot of learning on my end [12:02] love this: http://twitter.com/#!/voidspace/status/50011778788245504 [12:03] Anybody see the O'Reilly disaster relief sale today? http://post.oreilly.com/form/oreilly/viewhtml/9z1zga584ka0cs8c3j3seujd5hvqramv99us79d73h0?utm_content=em-orm-books-videos-ddjpn-elists&utm_campaign=Books+Videos&utm_source=iPost&utm_medium=email&imm_mid=06c4a7&cmp=em-orm-books-videos-ddjpn-elists [12:06] Thinking about picking up a book or two. Javascript: The Good Parts sounds useful. Learning Android sounds like something I'll set on my bookshelf and plan to read someday. [12:06] yea, grabbing the hadoop book now actually [12:06] JS the good parts is one of the best 2/3 JS books out there [12:07] thought about learning android, but don't know when I'll get to it [12:07] The Book of Audacity for you podcasters. :-) [12:07] already have a couple of books in line on the kindle [12:07] that's snap-l's job :P [12:07] rick_h_: exactly! [12:07] I've had Android Dev Meetup on my calendar for months now. Never make it. [12:08] booooo [12:08] you make that lug meeting you were talking about? [12:08] Yes, I did. Same evening as the meetup [12:09] cool [12:09] but now I have a string of poker tournies on Thursday nights [12:09] so no more Thursday meetings for the next.... 3 weeks? Something like that [12:10] Did really well last Thursday. Had a good shot at some serious cash [12:10] instead, walked away with a buck-oh-five [12:10] :-p [12:10] but... I got paid to have fun. Can't beat that. [12:12] would've gone to CHC-AA Monday, but I wasn't in Dundee for a change :-p [12:13] your comments on one of those podcasts I listened to this morning rekindled my interest in a project I planned out some months ago [12:13] Basically, a specialized Twitter client to turn a hashtag into an impromptu IRC channel [12:15] Some folks I know have a Twitter #wineparty every Friday, and it's so hard to keep up with that using any standard Twitter client, that I started making plans to do this. [12:15] http://thechangelog.com/post/4005924669/earthquake-twitter-client-on-terminal-with-streaming-api [12:15] I've got that in my list of things to check out [12:15] might be part of that [12:15] and your whine about Twitter replacing IRC as the backchannel told me, "hey, there's probably a number of geeks who would dig this" [12:16] I'll check that out [12:17] but I was thinking of doing an xchat style interface, complete with "user list" based on how recently somebody's used the hashtag (virtually entering/leaving the channel) [12:17] and set up "private channels" when you get @'d without the hashtag [12:21] http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2011/03/blackberry-playbook-launching-april-19-pre-orders-start-at-499-for-16gb.ars [12:21] Squeeeee [12:22] a blackberry fanboy? [12:22] uh oh, let's not go through this again [12:22] that's like an excel fanboy [12:22] read yesterday's morning if you're interested :) [12:23] I do use excel to great extent here [12:23] =p [12:23] at least you're consistent [12:23] I like the comments on that article [12:23] "I have a blackberry for work and it's fine as far a business applications go. I also like the fact that it is secure enough that certain governments are a bit jaded by that fact they can't crack my email. " [12:25] greg-g: wtf is this brownie recipe? hav you actually eaten that? [12:26] Brownies? [12:26] Wuh? [12:26] on his buzz feed [12:26] link? [12:27] brownies... buzz... :-) [12:28] i lied, it's on his google reader shares [12:29] http://paridy.blogspot.com/2011/03/meal-in-brownie-and-chia-pudding.html [12:29] holy christ [12:29] that cant be a real brownie === lotia is now known as lotia-away [12:32] it frightens and confuses me [12:49] Good morning [12:49] wolfger: Sorry for your tender ears [12:49] The levels were the best that I could do. :) [12:52] Also, I <3 O'Reilly [12:52] (the book publisher, not the pundit) [12:54] Whyfor? [13:00] Their sales, and overall plesant experience downloading books from them [13:00] and that they are donating to Japan [13:04] man I hate this code base [13:04] Which one now? [13:04] the original one done by the .net guys [13:05] with the C style for loops and db table/columns like HotAlert.HotAlertID [13:05] or HotAlert_Status.HotAlert_StatusID [13:05] as the pk [13:05] what should it be? [13:05] hotalert_status.id [13:06] or better yet, status.id [13:06] * snap-l quietly thanks brousch, because he didn't see the problem either [13:06] ?! Try typing it a ton of times, you'll think about it [13:06] why type when the tools type it for you? [13:06] rick_h_: That's what autocompleting IDEs are for. ;) [13:07] bah, you guys are helpless :P [13:07] hopeless [13:07] not helpless [13:07] that too [13:07] ide completion == helpless, don't think about things like that when you don't have to type it out [13:07] makes my eyes bleed [13:07] Though I'll agree that repeating the name over and over and over is pretty dumb [13:07] I mean really, wtf do you need case in table column names for? [13:08] BecauseTheLastLanguageYouLookedAtWasJava? [13:08] "well mysql is case insensitive so I didn't think it mattered" [13:08] except when you go to any other db backend...we're supposed to be using an ORM [13:08] ugh [13:08] anyway, back to work, just had to rant for a second, slowly morphing the code base around [13:09] Well, and God help you when you hit a database that does care about case sensitive columns [13:09] finally have declarative ORM models, but all the queries are still by hand [13:09] though I'm not sure if PostgreSQL cares [13:09] I think it does [13:09] learning android? as in Java??? ugh, I feel for your. [13:09] err, feel bad for you [13:09] thankfully SA loves me [13:09] next step is to remap the ORM objects names to lower/sensible names [13:10] and map to the ugly column names [13:10] PostgreSQL didn't care in the test select that I did. [13:10] and I can slowly remove them from my eyeballs [13:10] at least, 8.4.7 didn't care. [13:12] man I love python [13:12] just give me regular brownies please. [13:12] there is already lots of sugar in those bean and squash brownies, I'd rather just have the extra sugar fat and wheat version [13:13] and yes, I'm sure that is a real brownie, having cookied a lot with all of those ingredients the proportions and textures add up to something that isn't bad. [13:13] just think of it like a brownie flavored bean pie [13:13] and if you have not eaten bean pie, then you are lame :p [13:14] what is wrong with HotAlert_Status.HotAlert_StatusID ? I mean sure, just .ID would suffice, but come on, if htat is all you have to bitch about, count your blessings. [13:14] hah [13:14] sorry, when it's one of a dozen tables/each with 10+ fields all done that way [13:15] it's a bit much [13:15] you don't need to prefix every column with the table name [13:15] snap-l++ even vim will autocomplete that shit for you. hit ctrl-n [13:15] it's in the table name [13:15] it's still ugly as hell, less readble, and harder to keep line lengths in order [13:16] sounds like you need to man up. [13:16] :) [13:16] it's my job, I'm supposed to be fixing/exampling how to write this crap better [13:16] CamelCaseIsPrettyNormalTheseDays_Although_IWill_Admit_Mixing_TheUnderScoreDelimiterRAndomlyIsVeryWeird [13:16] SoundsLikeYouAreFocusingOnThingsThatDon'tMatter [13:17] pep8 [13:17] meh, whatever [13:17] is it a python code base? [13:17] standards win [13:17] yea [13:17] what does your database design and naming convention have to do with python and pep8 ? [13:17] C style for loops in your python code? [13:17] because it turns into ORM model/attrib names [13:17] yea [13:17] ok, now I understand your gripe. [13:17] please continue. [13:18] sorry, not for, if [13:18] if x == 1 or x == 2 or x == 3 [13:18] what is C-sytle if? [13:18] if x in [1,2,3] [13:18] hehehe, just proof someone didn't know python. [13:18] right [13:18] thus my refactoring, teaching [13:18] even still on the database front, your ORM should let you map the model/attrib names, if you can't, get a new ORM. [13:18] and I get to come here and gripe [13:19] jrwren: yea, I'm doing that now, which is why I <3 Sqlalchemy [13:19] but the code is still using old names [13:19] so it's not a one step rename [13:19] and there are many manually constructed queries [13:19] awesome. [13:19] anyway, too much time on this, didn't mean to create an hour long disucssion [13:19] just mornnig cranky gripes...ugh hate this codebase [13:20] i understand the problems now. Sounds pretty typical. [13:20] I deal with that kind of crap all day long in C#. [13:20] but I have to do it, clean it as I go [13:20] get new features released tomorrow [13:20] oh yea, everywhere has those codebases that were new, done by the new guy, etc [13:21] yup. [13:21] or old guy that was new to the language. [13:21] my huge gripe is people misunderstanding books. [13:22] you don't need to apply every patter from the gang of four. [13:22] well, they don't get past chapter 4 of the books [13:22] heh, we don't get any patterns [13:22] guys here more likely to treat python as php straight one page script [13:22] EWE [13:22] figures. [13:22] I've got a meeting this afternoon to try to convince peopel to do more objects using those magic methods we talked about yesterday [13:22] that actually makes some sense. python seems to be a popular next leap language from php [13:22] making custom iterable objects/etc [13:23] well, they come from C/C# background, thus the c-like if [13:23] but python lets you do whatever [13:23] what py webframework are they uysing? [13:23] since you can write a straight up/down shell script with it without ever calling a method [13:23] pylons [13:23] but still, they put app config in cotrollers/appconfig.py [13:23] C and C# have about as much in common as PHP and Python... so if their background is really strong in both C and C#, then they are pretty versatile. [13:23] they import into templates because they can [13:23] hrm. [13:24] and reusable isnt the name of the game [13:24] I don't know pylon well enough I guess. [13:24] copy/pasted crap all over [13:24] ewe. [13:24] gross. [13:24] meh, not much to know [13:24] that is bad no matter what the lang/platform [13:24] it gives you a directory structure to put your stuff in [13:24] so strict django-like templates would help keep your people in line? [13:24] yea, exactly [13:24] but so easy in python to copy/paste [13:24] its easy in any lang, you stil don't do it. [13:24] no, tempaltes are more flexible, which is awesome when you need it [13:24] but yea, gun, bullet have fun [13:27] New Open Metalcast is up. http://openmetalcast.com/2011/03/22/open-metalcast-episode-17-with-a-little-help-from-my-friends/ [13:27] yay [13:27] pygame on android? i don't suppose anyone has tried this http://pygame.renpy.org/ [13:28] There's a branch of pygame that someone is working on for Android [13:28] (subset, rather) [13:28] rick_h_ you have to have a meeting to convince people to programmer in Python like Python programmers? [13:29] my last place was like that [13:29] getters and setters, crap like that [13:29] getters and setters that is [13:29] i can't wait until ruby gets to this point. [13:29] 8then people will STFU about how great ruby is, and realize that any lang is great when its in great hands. [13:30] Hasn't it already gotten to that point? [13:30] or am I misremembering [13:30] binbrain: it's slow. We don't tend to work on the same projects at the same time [13:30] don't do code reviews [13:30] and meetings are rare/far between where I can show stuff like this [13:31] so it's more a personal, "hey, I changed xxx in your project, isn't that cool" type of things [13:31] we have a small shop, and we actually do code reviews, this would be my 1st job that actually put the effort in [13:31] only 4 python folks, and before a release, everybody has to go through and validate other peoples code [13:31] 1st for me [13:31] validate the code and the test [13:32] code reviews are overrated. [13:32] yea, and here I'm just finally getting us to do feature branches on our own [13:32] and work on pulling them together pre-release bit by bit [13:32] shared code ownership can be just as effective. [13:32] jrwren: Depends on the shop [13:33] jrwren I don't have a problem with them, takes a few days, and we've caught things with them [13:33] right, and I wouldn't want to work in a shop were code reviews were rated highly [13:33] jrwren: yea, but a code review would give me a place to give constructive notes like the if statements "did you know you could write it like xxx" [13:33] rick_h_: patch it and make those be the commit notes and then make sure everyone reads the commit log. [13:33] yea, but they don't :P [13:34] if you can't justify it in the commit notes, then you are just being a zealot about subjective opinion [13:34] like, you changed xyz, did you consider abc over here though? and crap like that [13:34] I send out emails/notes/links to articles all the time [13:34] the focus on reading the commit log :) [13:34] mark as read, delete [13:34] http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/libya0309/s_l21_RTR2JKJ9.jpg [13:34] oh, I can commit all day, doesn't mean they read the logs [13:34] That is one bad ass Libyan. [13:34] so people aren't interested in doing a better job? that is a shame. you can't improve teams that don't want to improve. [13:35] well, they have the attitude of "I'm so busy, I'll look at that when I have time" [13:35] but don't realize that some of the improvements save them time [13:35] a change comes in and needs to go through 10 copy/pasted places == longer than extract class/method and update [13:35] and if they don't know the python tricks to make life easier, I need a chance to show/teach [13:35] right. [13:36] "oh look, you can just pass that validator method in, and call it there...don't need to copy/paste the validator code" [13:36] if they acknoledge that doing the same thing in 10 places is bad, then you at least have a place to start. [13:36] right [13:36] if htey think that its supposed to be that way, then you are wasting your time. [13:36] I'd say a large percentage of programmers just want to get the job over with and collect a paycheck [13:37] binbrain: ++ [13:37] have you ever met any of them? [13:37] huh, all the time [13:37] I haven't. I've only met people who want to do a better job. [13:37] interesting [13:37] I've met lots of devs that honestly don't know any better. [13:37] I've met people that build a lot of false blockers as to why they can't do better [13:38] don't have time is the biggest thing [13:39] its easy to find people who want to do a better job, you find them at meetups usually [13:39] you find them at coffee house coders ;) [13:39] I'm talking about going into clients. [13:40] But yes, the meetups, user groups, and conferenes are an echo chamber of people who want to do better and know where to look to do better. [13:40] right, its thoe false blockers that are the problem. [13:41] I think everyone wants to do better, there are just a lot of misguided people out there about how to do better. [13:41] right, but CHC is 6-10 people, how many devs are in the area? [13:42] jrwren, I think your glass might be slightly half full on that one, but its not a black and white issue anyways, takes all kinds [13:42] oh sure. [13:43] but if you ask anyone in any profession if they want to do a good job, very rarely will you get the answer "no" [13:45] just like when you ask most people how things are and they tell you just fine even though their car just died [13:46] ;) [13:46] holy shit, my tweet is getting replies. *sigh* I was just throwing away a tweet. [13:47] lol [13:47] that is two very different things, although both lead to volumes on human psycology [13:47] time for coffee and a meeting [14:20] it's kind of creepy to run across rick_h_ in random places on the internet http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5155135/how-to-organize-a-python-project [14:20] I'm everywhere! [14:20] boo, no votes for my answer [14:20] what a crock :P [14:21] oh crap, and top answer has a import * [14:21] * rick_h_ facepalms [14:21] <_stink_> record a rant! [14:21] <_stink_> there is no shortage of topics. :) [14:21] i was especially surprised to see you there since the question was originally about pydev [14:22] lol [14:23] well, it was organizing your own packages, and modern-package-template helps with a lot of that [14:29] what is paster? i can find docs on PAste, but that's web stuff [14:34] nvm, finally found it [14:36] I'l go vote you up and down vote that :) [14:38] well, no i won't. I think that is a better answer [14:38] but I'll up vote ya anyway :) [14:45] lol, thanks [14:49] brousch: yeah, it is effing good too! (the brownies) [14:50] Yay, I've got a file cabinet that will be delivered tomorrow [14:50] and to the rest of you: yes, it is a great effing brownie. I had a coworker blind taste it and they loved it, then I told them what was in it (hence that comment on the post) [15:38] Ordered a bike rack for our bikes [15:38] Looking to do some riding this year. Didn't get much of a chance last year. [15:39] cool, I've got a goal of getting a new one with a kid friendly ride of some sort [15:41] Yeah, I want to take our bikes to get them checked out [15:44] yay! [16:03] whoa... so with js-ctypes I could call open from JS and get a fstream!?!? [16:03] err get a file descriptor rather? [16:18] I want to know why Jono Bacon's Art of Community ePub makes my ereader go for a toss [16:19] go for a toss? Did it also implant British English in your head? [16:19] read it fine on mine :P [16:20] lol [16:20] maybe he just means he's reading it "your community has gone for a toss" [16:20] blame working with some Indian co-workers. :) [16:21] so how does one go for a toss? Is it like "I'm going to take a lunch break and play some horseshoes"? [16:24] rick_h_: It's a euphemism for masturbation. :) [16:25] only in Britis English, it sounds much more dignified. [16:25] http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=go%20for%20a%20toss [16:25] oh, that toss...nice phrase there [16:25] Actually, not so much [16:26] Usually means things are severely fucked up [16:26] though I thought it was a euphemistic way [16:26] freaky sex, apparently [16:27] wow [16:27] anyone still on XP, this made me LOL. Start->Run->Fonts (to open the windows font dir) Then in the file menu click "install new font.." its a windows 3.1 dialog! [16:27] * rick_h_ looks around our complete XP corporate environment...ummm [16:28] I know there are XP folks in here. [16:28] that's what a lot of the computers at the library are still running [16:28] jrwren: Yep, there's a lot of Win3.1isms still in XP [16:28] all new machiens are Win7, they did skip vista [16:28] I just tried it, and yes it's uuuuuugly [16:29] I never liked the Win3.1 dialog box for files. [16:29] yea, we're supposed to be rolling out new desktops with win7 this year [16:29] but let's just say it's towards the end of march and not seen any yet [16:29] and I don't think win7 plays nice with our old novell ldap box [16:30] At the risk of getting jrwren to correct me, I don't think moving from XP to Win 7 is terribly easy. [16:31] it is if you upgrade the apple way [16:31] DBO: Ala new desktop machines? [16:31] yeps [16:33] well that part is ok [16:33] but the network, when you're a fake MS shop like us, is the issue [16:33] ldap via novell, file share servers, keriomail exchange mail faker, etc [16:33] we're wanna be AD without the AD [16:34] I love that my kobo has a sqlite3 database on it [16:34] hey, bookie is making me like sqlite more and more (well and hate it some as well though) [16:35] can you access it? view it? [16:35] I have a love / hate relationship with it [16:35] Yeah, it's under the .kobo directory [16:35] has .conf files under there as well [16:36] and a Trolltech.conf file. ;) [16:36] the limits on table alterations, and the complete crap rules with fulltext indexed 'virtual tables' is maddening [16:36] Damn thing is probably running Qt. [16:36] nice, qt based eh? [16:37] except this fucking thing isn't updating the library [16:38] and much like banshee, it takes forever to see new content when it is working [16:48] ok, so the printer let's me download a driver for 'linux' that's got cups in the name, but ends in .exe [16:49] wine? [16:49] file says "PE32 executable for MS Windows (GUI) Intel 80386 32-bit, LHa self-extracting archive" [16:49] don't proceed any further, might be a virus [16:49] well, got it from the manufacturer site, but ok [16:49] do you have antivirus software installed [16:49] have clamav around [16:50] dude, just joking [16:50] :P [16:50] clamav, I hope your CPU is ok [16:50] don't keep it running, it's installed [16:50] snap-l: lol, how about i agree with you. moving from XP to Win7 is not easy. [16:51] hmm, so maybe I can open that up on windows and extract some ppd files or something [16:51] did you know PPD files can shell out to executables? [16:51] some mac printer drivers are PPD and then have mac-only binaries that won't work on linux. [16:51] stpuid dell [16:53] heh, did not know that, nice [16:55] ok, that worked [16:55] extraxted to just a .ppd file, love plaintext [16:56] sweet, and test page [16:59] http://signup.balanon.com/yu3m1 [16:59] i spam channel with that link :p [17:01] anyone install Firefox 4 on ubuntu yet? [17:13] ColonelPanic001: I've been running the mozilla-next PPA, so I've be following the betas just fine [17:15] just curious. I just put it on this macbook here at work, but haven't bothered finding the PPA or whatnot for the linux boxes yet [17:15] and by that I mean, I installed it today [17:21] ColonelPanic001: btw: http://askubuntu.com/questions/6339/how-do-i-install-firefox-4/612 [17:25] rick_h_: you'd be proud of me. i'm running pylint over my code now [17:25] greg-g: thanks [17:51] completely unscientific/etc, but FF4 does feel a little zippier [17:55] * greg-g nods [17:56] oh it feels WAY faster. [17:56] not just hte JS either. [17:56] but i typically have 20+ tabs [17:56] Sync was something I've been hoping to get to trying, too. Nice [17:57] and just changing tabs feels far faster [17:57] yeah, me too [17:57] same here [17:57] js-ctypes looks awesome too [17:57] have a bad habit of leaving tabs laying around [17:57] js-ctypes? [17:57]