=== chuck_ is now known as zul
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* ogra_ twiddles thumbs15:01
ogra_GrueMaster, can you poke him ?15:02
MootBotMeeting started at 10:02. The chair is NCommander.15:02
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]15:02
ogra_ah :)15:02
NCommanderHad to retrieve my laptop charger from underneath someone15:02
ogra_someone eh ?15:02
ogra_who is she ?15:02
NCommanderogra_: random bodies on the couch15:03
ogra_oh, more than one15:03
GrueMasterI had a bunch of rain soaked campers show up late last night.15:03
NCommander[link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/2011032415:03
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/2011032415:03
NCommander[topic] Action Item Review15:03
MootBotNew Topic:  Action Item Review15:03
NCommander[topic] ogra to determine if mono still crashes on tegra15:04
MootBotNew Topic:  ogra to determine if mono still crashes on tegra15:04
* NCommander pokes ogra_ 15:05
ogra_NCommander, c/o15:05
NCommanderogra_: k15:05
NCommander[topic] Standing Items15:05
MootBotNew Topic:  Standing Items15:05
NCommander[link] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel.html15:05
MootBotLINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel.html15:05
NCommander[link] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-ubuntu-11.04-beta-1.html15:06
MootBotLINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-ubuntu-11.04-beta-1.html15:06
rsalvetijust moved one WI from edid bp to done, the others will wait until beginning of next week, then if not yet done will move it15:06
rsalvetihad to spend more time than I wanted with the pvr drivers15:07
* ogra_ wishes ff4 wouldnt lock his machine all the time15:07
NCommanderanything else or can I move one?15:08
GrueMasterI will have my task completed next week.15:08
* ogra_ didnt have a chance to look at the tracker yet15:08
ogra_one sec15:08
ogra_ff4 is really unhappy on arm wrt RAM usage15:09
ogra_move, looks fine15:09
ogra_(sorry for delaying)15:09
rsalvetiNCommander: move! :-)15:10
* ogra_ will kill the serial tty stuff, wont go into upstart, is better in jasper now15:10
GrueMasterHe's having network issues.15:10
ogra_and the kbd bug will be postponed15:10
NCommander[[to[topic] Unity 2D Status15:10
ogra_GrueMaster, tell the guys on the sofa to move off the network cable then15:10
NCommander[topic] Unity 2D Status15:11
MootBotNew Topic:  Unity 2D Status15:11
ogra_we have 3.8 since yesterday :)15:11
ogra_closed over 60 bugs15:11
ogra_please test as soon as netbook builds again15:11
* ogra_ really likes it15:11
NCommanderogra_: can we have changelog messages that are useful to glance at without referencing a lot of LP bugs? kthxbye :-P15:11
GrueMasterI'll do a dist-upgrade today.15:11
ogra_NCommander, nope15:12
ogra_not if i have to manually add >60 entries myself :P15:12
GrueMasterogra_: I few of the others here in pdx were also commenting on that.15:12
GrueMasterApparently there is a tool to do this.15:12
ogra_GrueMaster, i'm trying to teach upstream to use dch but they arent there yet15:12
ogra_the list of bugs was necessary for the lp janitor15:13
ogra_else i would have left that one out too like i usually do15:13
ogra_anyway, move15:13
NCommanderogra_: your the maintainer, when I look at changelogs, I expect sometihng useful :-P.15:13
NCommander[topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, rsalveti)15:13
MootBotNew Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney, rsalveti)15:13
ogra_NCommander, look at the treee then15:14
rsalvetiUbuntu-2.6.38-1206.8 just uploaded for omap415:14
ogra_will need a rebuild though15:14
rsalvetithis kernel should have better support for wifi, full hdmi support and SGX compatible15:14
ogra_new gcc was uploaded too ... right afterwards15:14
rsalvetiogra_: after this kernel hits the archive you can remove the cmd arguments for dvi15:15
ogra_rsalveti, yep, on my list15:15
ogra_the question is if images are buildable again *before* the new kernel is there :)15:15
ogra_i doubt the kernel has settled before saturday15:16
rsalvetiI also updated the SGX kernel module to be compatible with 38, so it should just work now if you install the sgx packages from tiomap-dev/trunk ppa15:16
ogra_btw, given that ppisati does SRUs and the like, he should probably be added to this topic too :)15:17
rsalvetiafter it's properly tested I'll move the sgx stuff to the release ppa, and we can start testing the ti icon again15:17
ogra_in case he has to report anything15:17
rsalvetiogra_: yeah, makes sense15:17
ogra_and to give GrueMaster a chance to whine at him for having to test all these old releases ;)15:18
rsalvetiNCommander: can you also add ppisati to the topic?15:18
janimorsalveti, no sgx drivers into restricted/multiverse this cycle?15:18
GrueMasterI get plenty of whineing in on #ubuntu-kernel.  :P15:18
rsalvetijanimo: not yet, still waiting some more updates from TI (and IMG)15:18
NCommander[topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)15:18
MootBotNew Topic:  ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)15:18
rsalvetijanimo: so not to a point that we'll get just bugixing15:18
NCommanderdamn lag15:18
lagNCommander: Grrrrrrrrrr15:19
ogra_he is in linaro now15:19
GrueMasterThat makes it worse.  :P15:19
NCommanderlag: not you, referring to latency15:19
ogra_that linaro has the lag ?15:20
ogra_is mono fixed ?15:20
NCommanderI stumbled upon a workaround for mono last night that allows us to disable SMP for it15:20
rsalvetiogra_: 2.6.38-1206.7 finished building already, but don't know yet if it's in the archive15:21
NCommanderI need to code a patch to make this the default behavior on ARM, but f-spot and banshee appear to work properly15:21
janimoNCommander, you mean mono to only use one core?15:21
GrueMasterI tested this on panda last night.  It does work, and better than panda running nosmp.15:21
janimogood news!15:21
ogra_awesome !15:21
NCommanderjanimo: yeah, which sidesteps the whole Mono on ARM dies horribly on SMP machines15:21
NCommanderI poked upstream .15:21
janimoit's a good workaround I guess15:22
NCommanderbut they haven't responded with a good way to debug the ARM specific code for SMP safety, and nothing obvious jumps up15:22
janimorsalveti, but the SGX stuff is planned for inclusion into the archives just blocked right now?15:22
janimoNCommander, and the issue is present on 2.10 as well?15:23
NCommanderQuestion: since we have *gasp* a working mono*/gasp*, are we going to change our seeds to now resemble the desktop versions of Ubuntu15:23
janimoonce the mono package is updated I'd say yes15:23
ogra_we will drop RB and pull in banshee15:23
NCommanderjanimo: yes still screwing around with it, but I'm seeing if theres a way to run mono under valgrind which one would hope find the damn SMP headache15:24
ogra_not sure what other mono apps are in desktop15:24
NCommanderogra_: f-spot + tomboy15:24
ogra_huh ?15:24
ogra_f-spot is gone since maverick15:24
rsalvetijanimo: I'll try to request the inclusion, once we get what will be the final version for this cycle, but the dev is still going heavily atm15:24
GrueMasterI thought they brought it back.15:24
* GrueMaster checks.15:24
ogra_i dont think so15:24
ogra_but i'll compare the seeds if i have to make the changes15:25
ogra_as soon as i get a go for it15:25
NCommanderI'll cook up something today or tomorrow and upload15:25
ogra_no hurry15:25
rsalvetibanshee should be our best test case15:25
ogra_qeueu is    so full it will take days anyway15:25
NCommanderrsalveti: unfortnately without workign sound on Panda it is a tad difficult to know if it works fully15:25
ogra_NCommander, though dont forget we're frozen15:26
rsalvetias f-spot is out for shotwell15:26
ogra_beta-1 freeze kicks in later today15:26
NCommanderogra_: I'll poke the release team15:26
GrueMasterJust checked x86 manifest.  Still shotwell.15:26
janimoNCommander, aren't there some pulse audio trick to redirect sound to another machine?15:26
ogra_not sure they want to take the risk for other arches15:26
* NCommander whimpers in fear at janimo's suggestion15:26
NCommanderogra_: its going to be a patch wrapped with #ifdef ARM15:26
ogra_-that should work15:27
NCommandermoving on15:27
NCommander[topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)15:27
MootBotNew Topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)15:27
ogra_headless is perfect !15:27
ogra_all our preinstalled images are fully preseedable on cmdline now15:27
NCommanderogra_: cool, I didn't know you found a way to run without your head!15:27
* NCommander ducks15:27
ogra_(will add preseed file support in OO)15:28
ogra_NCommander, google for stoertebeker ;) we northern gearmans are famouos for running without head15:28
NCommanderogra_: I won't know :-)15:28
ogra_i havent looked at netbook for about two weeks, GrueMaster do you know what happened to the gnome-settings-daemon issue ?15:29
ogra_i havent seen a bug for it and didnt file one either15:29
GrueMasterIt was still there on the 0321 image, but updating fixed it.15:29
ogra_but if it still happens i'd call that a beta blocker15:29
ogra_oh, and our omap3 builder seems to be broken15:29
ogra_i pinged lamont in -release earlier today and also generally pinged in #is but didnt get any answers yet15:30
GrueMasterNot sure if an update actually fixed it or something shook loose.  May still happen on fresh image.15:30
ogra_yeah, we need to check that asap15:30
GrueMasterHard w/o a fresh image.15:30
ogra_but with the archive as it is now itr will still take a while until we can build again15:30
ogra_GrueMaster, dont tell me15:31
ogra_working on headless was real fun :)15:31
ogra_nothing holds up rebuilds15:31
ogra_anyway, NCommander move15:31
NCommander[topic] QA Status (GrueMaster)15:31
MootBotNew Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster)15:31
GrueMasterTesting SRU kernels for dove seems to be the highlight of the week.  3 kernels at one time in proposed.15:32
GrueMasterMade sure the latest kernel had all of the previous fixes prior to testing.15:32
GrueMasterAlso started looking into some other more obscure bugs that are still open.15:33
GrueMasterInstalled unity-2d-latest on maverick from daily ppa.  Works much better so far.15:34
ogra_natty would be more intresting though15:34
GrueMasterI wish they would add natty to their daily builds.15:34
ogra_since -2d uses bits and pieces that are only in natty15:34
GrueMasterThey keep telling me to retest with daily on maverick when I run into bugs.15:35
GrueMasterThey only build natty daily for x86 I think.15:35
ogra_well, it doesnt help much to test on maverick if the bug is in interaction with other    desktop pieces15:36
GrueMasterDon't tell me.15:36
ogra_indicator, bamf and the dash protocol are completely different15:36
ogra_but we have the latest in natty now15:36
GrueMasterSo, should I pull my own bzr tree and do my own daily builds?  I really don't have the resources to do that.15:37
ogra_i also expect development to slow down a bit with the freezes getting colder15:37
NCommanderanything else or can I move on?15:38
NCommander[topic] AOB15:38
MootBotNew Topic:  AOB15:38
ogra_everyone tell Amaranth to hurry up with compiz fixing for GLES :)15:40
AmaranthIf I could get a working GLES stack somewhere :/15:40
ogra_yeah, blame mesa :P15:40
ogra_Amaranth, as discussed above, rsalveti has new drivers that will work with the new kernel :)15:41
ogra_NCommander, time to close ?15:42
MootBotMeeting finished at 10:42.15:42
=== jj-afk is now known as jjohansne
=== jjohansne is now known as jjohansen
=== Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-afk
=== Ursinha-afk is now known as Ursinha
=== Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-lunch
keesoh, dst17:00
keessee you in an hour17:00
* czajkowski hugs Keybuk 17:03
Keybukhmm, either nobody is here for the TB meeting17:05
Keybukor I'm an hour early due to DST17:05
Riddell17:00 < kees> oh, dst 17:00 < kees> see you in an hour17:05
* Keybuk updates his calendar17:06
mdzKeybuk, I added the outstanding items from my TB mailbox onto the agenda17:54
Keybukmdz: thanks17:57
mdzI will need to leave at :30 unfortunately17:58
Keybukok, I see you've put your items on first17:59
cjwatsonI will likely need to keep it shortish too17:59
cjwatsonare we expecting sabdfl?17:59
cjwatsonkees: here?17:59
* pitti is here, FTR17:59
* Keybuk is trying to find the mootbot documentation18:00
pittiKeybuk: hash startmeeting18:00
mdzcjwatson, according to the calendar, no18:00
pittiit'll print the commands18:00
MootBotMeeting started at 13:00. The chair is Keybuk.18:00
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]18:00
Keybukgood morning everyone ;-)18:00
Keybuk[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda18:00
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda18:00
Keybuk[TOPIC] Action review18:01
MootBotNew Topic:  Action review18:01
pittihey Scott, howdy18:01
Keybukthanks mdz for marking his items as done, likewise cjwatson18:01
Keybukpitti: there's three items assigned to you, can you update us on those?18:01
mdzpitti's first one is done18:01
Keybuk * pitti to kick off brainstorm review18:01
Keybuk * pitti to respond to uTouch package set request18:01
Keybuk * pitti to add PPU rights for Serge Hallyn per ML18:01
pittiall done18:01
Keybukgreat, thanks pitti18:02
pittibrainstorm> 9/10 sent18:02
pittistill waiting for Andy's reply about the kernel issue18:02
cjwatsonwhat's the tenth?18:02
pittibut I'm on it18:02
cjwatsonAndy is off getting married18:02
cjwatsonI wouldn't recommend waiting for him18:02
Keybukcjwatson: that woman must be a saint ...18:02
pittiand kudos for cjwatson for getting in the first response and fix18:02
pitticjwatson: ah, thanks18:02
pitti(wasn't in the holiday cal)18:02
cjwatsonogasawara is filling in18:02
Keybuk[TOPIC] Proposal to install ubuntu-restricted-* by default (mdz)18:02
MootBotNew Topic:  Proposal to install ubuntu-restricted-* by default (mdz)18:02
Keybuk[LINK] http://launchpad.net/bugs/72383118:03
MootBotLINK received:  http://launchpad.net/bugs/72383118:03
ubottuUbuntu bug 723831 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Installer – The option to 'install third-party software' when installing Ubuntu should be selected by default (aka "make Youtube work")" [Wishlist,Incomplete]18:03
mdzJono passed this to technical-board@ about 2 weeks ago18:03
mdzit also came up in my Q&A last week18:03
mdzthe short version is that it proposes ticking the "install third-party software" box by default18:03
pittiah, I think this already came up once18:04
cjwatsonpersonally, I'm very unhappy about crossing this line by default, even though I understand the reasons offered by the design team18:04
Keybukis this third-party software licenced under open source licences?18:04
Keybukor is this software non-free18:04
mdzKeybuk, nope, or we would almost certainly be installing it by default :-)18:04
pittiTBH I'm not too happy about it, as now it would take an informed decision to get free software (what we actually advertise on the cover)18:04
mdzI think there's no meaningful difference between installing it by default, and ticking a box which downloads and installs it by default18:05
Keybukthen the long version is that it proposes changes our stance from "we only use proprietary code if it's needed to get the hardware working" to "we install every bit of proprietary code we can to make farmville work"18:05
pittimdz: agreed18:05
Keybukmdz: agreed18:05
pittiI do agree to installing wlan drivers, but this is too much for me18:05
Keybukperhaps legally there is a meaningful difference, but in terms of ourselves, there isn't18:05
mdzI assume that somewhere on our website there is still a page which says that Ubuntu is free software18:06
mdzand we make a deliberate exception for hardware compatibility only18:06
mdzand we limit that pretty strictly18:06
m4n1shOne more question: As bdrung said, can it be split this into two parts - gstreamer-* and non-free packages and then discuss18:06
mdzKeybuk, yes, I think the legal spectre in that bug is a distraction18:06
pittihttp://www.ubuntu.com/project -> "The Ubuntu Promise18:06
MootBotLINK received:  http://www.ubuntu.com/project -> "The Ubuntu Promise18:06
pittiUbuntu is free."18:06
mdzpitti, that's ambiguous though; there is a page which talks about licensing specifically, and the exception18:07
cjwatsonI share bdrung's opinion to some extent; patent-problematic packages may carry risk (which Canonical would have to evaluate, I expect), but I don't regard them as having the same moral problems18:07
mdzI can't find anything since it was last reorganized...18:07
pittiyeah, currently searching for that; but I've seen it as well18:07
highvoltagemdz: http://www.canonical.com/about-ubuntu says that "Ubuntu is and always will be absolutely free."18:07
MootBotLINK received:  http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/licensing18:07
highvoltagemdz: *absolutely*18:07
Keybukcjwatson: right, but we've always said that patent-problematic packages *can* go into main or universe18:07
highvoltagemdz: I'm just saying :)18:07
* kees here now, catching up18:07
Keybukand we've never shirked from installing them by default either (cf. ubuntu's font rendering)18:08
cjwatsonKeybuk: yes; although there is a standing TB decision from years ago saying that libavcodec may not go on CDs18:08
mdzhighvoltage, that "free" is at best ambiguous; i think the page I just linked to clarifies this particular point well though18:08
cjwatsonfrom 2007-01-0218:08
Keybukcjwatson: was there, I thought there was a standing "we need someone legal to make a decision"18:08
mdzthe title of the bug ("make youtube work") implies that it's the non-free bits which are considered important18:08
cjwatsonKeybuk: well, we can go back and analyse the logs some other time18:09
Keybukcjwatson: indeed18:09
KeybukI think we have a pretty good consensus here, would there be any objection to voting on the issue at hand?18:10
pittimdz: right, last paragraph on that page is what I remembered18:10
cjwatsonfor me, this is a line in the sand - I don't really see a point in taking a stance on free software if we're going to give up when it's hard18:10
pittiand we already have the codec installer for totem, and plugin installer for flash18:10
pittiwhich can convey the problem in more words than this single and already overloaded tick box in the installer18:10
mdzif the question here is whether we consider the Flash plugin to be as vital to the user experience as, say, the ability to use a graphics card or a wifi adapter, then my position is "no"18:10
cjwatsonI'm more than happy to continue a trend of making it easier for people who have a need18:10
pittimdz: agreed; and more to it, we do offer free alternatives in the plugin installer, such as gnash18:11
keesyeah, I don't want non-free stuff in by default. that's totally against the principles of ubuntu.18:11
Keybuk[VOTE] Proposal to install ubuntu-restricted-* by default18:11
MootBotPlease vote on:  Proposal to install ubuntu-restricted-* by default.18:11
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot18:11
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting18:11
MootBot-1 received from pitti. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -118:11
MootBot-1 received from cjwatson. 0 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -218:11
MootBot-1 received from kees. 0 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -318:11
mdzpitti, joeyh pointed out on identi.ca:18:11
mdz"@mdz regarding making youtube "just work", the 90% solution (but 100% free) is to ship browsers with the html5 beta cookie enabled"18:11
MootBot-1 received from Keybuk. 0 for, 4 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -418:11
MootBot-1 received from mdz. 0 for, 5 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -518:11
pitti"A great day for freedom"18:11
cjwatsonyes, making youtube just work is "wait until html5 is there"18:11
MootBotFinal result is 0 for, 5 against. 0 abstained. Total: -518:11
popeyThank you.18:11
mdzI feel like we're very close on web video18:11
highvoltagepopey: +1 :)18:11
ScottKNicely done.18:12
mdzand to lessen our resolve now would be counter-productive18:12
Keybuk[AGREED] Ubuntu will not enable ubuntu-restricted-* installation by default, and will retain its stance18:12
MootBotAGREED received:  Ubuntu will not enable ubuntu-restricted-* installation by default, and will retain its stance18:12
mdzsomeone will need to follow up on the bug18:12
Keybukwho feels they could be eloquent enough to do that?18:12
pittiI have no problem responding there18:13
mdzthanks pitti18:13
pittiit's basically closing as wontfix with a friendnly, but clear summary of the discussion here18:13
Keybuk[ACTION] pitti to follow-up to bug 72381318:13
MootBotACTION received:  pitti to follow-up to bug 72381318:13
ubottuError: Launchpad bug 723813 could not be found18:13
ubottuError: Launchpad bug 723813 could not be found18:13
pittidid it go away that quickly? :-)18:13
Keybuk[TOPIC] ubuntu-devel moderation (mdz)18:13
MootBotNew Topic:  ubuntu-devel moderation (mdz)18:13
mdzso this is anecdata18:14
Keybuk"I'm concerned about moderation delays discouraging upstream/third-party participation"18:14
mdzbut I wanted to bring it up and ask if anyone else had seen a problem18:14
Keybuk[LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/74006518:14
MootBotLINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/74006518:14
ubottuUbuntu bug 740065 in linux (Ubuntu) "TCP Cookie Transactions (RFC-6013) API updates" [Undecided,New]18:14
mdzI notice this because I tend to be slow catching up on ubuntu-devel18:14
* Keybuk must admit, I unsubscribed from ubuntu-devel years ago18:14
pittiI certainly noticed that maybe two weeks ago I suddenly got a whole load of -devel@ mail dating back to January or so18:14
mdzand so as I'm working through my mailbox, I notice messages which are old and received no response18:14
pittican we address this by giving more people access to moderation?18:15
mdzand sometimes they haven't actually been sent that long ago18:15
pittiI usually run listadmin two or three times a week, for -de@, -devel-announce@, techboard18:15
mdzpitti, maybe, to a degree18:15
mdzI wondered if cases like this should be handled by the patch pilot?18:15
pittiand I guess other people do as well18:15
mdzthis is someone who is not directly participating in Ubuntu but has a patch they want to submit18:15
pittido we only have one moderator for this ATM?18:16
cjwatsonI'm sorry - speaking of freedom, nouveau ate itself18:16
cjwatsonmoderators for ubuntu-devel are currently me, Evan Dandrea, and Sarah Hobbs (inactive)18:17
cjwatsonI think the appropriate resolution to this question is to add at least two or three more18:17
pittiI agree18:17
cjwatson(because that's more sensible than me just being guilty about not running listadmin often enough)18:17
mdzis there even a correspondence between "people listed as moderators" and "people who have the list moderation password"?18:17
cjwatsonI believe so ...18:18
mdzfrom a governance perspective, I would be quite happy for any Ubuntu developer (who can post unmoderated to the list) to also approve other people's messages18:18
mdzI run listadmin but very irregularly18:18
cjwatsonshould I take an action to find several more people I trust, then, or do you want something a bit more inclusive than that?18:18
mdzif there is someplace where we can just publish the password where only developers will be able to see it, that seems like a good idea18:19
keesprivate bzr tree?18:19
mdzI also think that the patch pilot should scan the mailing list and pick up things like this18:19
mdzkees, interesting idea18:19
pittiwell, we should at least ensure that moderators know the list policy18:19
cjwatsonthere's a wiki page for that18:19
=== Ursinha-lunch is now known as Ursinha
mdzis it worth considering a reminder system or something like that, so that someone notices if the list hasn't been moderated for too long?18:21
Keybukmdz: I'm pretty sure mailman sends those reminders ;-)18:21
mdzKeybuk, iirc it sends them *every day* so people filter them out18:21
Keybukand I'm pretty sure people do exactly what they do with all such reminders, and /dev/null them18:21
mdzonce a week would probably be sensible18:21
keeswell, that's part of the disconnect between people listed as moderators and those with the password18:22
Keybukmdz: it might be configurable, we should ask barry18:22
mdzand only if the list hadn't been moderated for >7 days18:22
mdzkees, also right18:22
pittithat would make them more useful indeed18:22
cjwatsonmoderators feel some responsibility (maybe not enough but ...)18:22
pittiI just grew a habit of running listadmin after my initial morning email catchup18:22
cjwatsonso I don't know that I think we should just spread it far and wide, because then everyone will think that somebody else will do it18:22
mdzanyway, if Colin is willing to take an action to follow up on this, I trust his judgement for how to resolve the problem18:22
cjwatsonI'd rather have a team large enough to keep up but small enough to care18:22
mdzwe don't need to debate it here18:22
* mdz de-bikesheds18:23
Keybuk[ACTION] cjwatson to stoke the fires of the ubuntu-devel moderation team18:23
MootBotACTION received:  cjwatson to stoke the fires of the ubuntu-devel moderation team18:23
Keybukcjwatson: ok? :)18:23
mdzthanks cjwatson18:24
Keybuk[TOPIC] Ownership of package sets\18:24
MootBotNew Topic:  Ownership of package sets\18:24
Keybuk[LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-March/000744.html18:24
MootBotLINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-March/000744.html18:24
cjwatsonis that the mail from geser?18:25
Keybukis Michael Bienia here?18:25
cjwatson(sorry, am avoiding X atm so that nouveau doesn't crash again)18:25
mdzcjwatson, yes18:25
cjwatsonwe resolved that on #ubuntu-motu, and geser filed a Launchpad bug; wgrant is going to sort it out18:25
cjwatson(and fix the data)18:25
mdzI added it to the agenda on his behalf, since I saw no reply on the ML18:25
Keybukok, nice and easy then18:25
cjwatsonLP wrongly set the new owner to the series owner rather than the previous package set owner18:25
Keybukmdz scanned the ML archive for us prior to the meeting, thanks18:26
* Keybuk hates click-to-focus18:26
KeybukI always ^W the wrong thing18:26
Keybukin terms of community bugs,18:26
Keybuk[LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/45139018:27
MootBotLINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/45139018:27
ubottuUbuntu bug 451390 in Launchpad itself "limited upload rights no longer give series nomination accept/decline rights" [Critical,Triaged]18:27
mdzI've never forgiven GNOME for making ^W a shortcut for close18:27
mdzthis had just been escalated the last time we looked at it18:27
mdznow it's importance=critical18:28
mdzbut I don't see any further activity18:28
Islingtonhttps://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/723831  has this been discussed already?18:28
ubottuUbuntu bug 723831 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Installer – The option to 'install third-party software' when installing Ubuntu should be selected by default (aka "make Youtube work")" [Wishlist,Incomplete]18:28
mdzIslington, yes, https://identi.ca/notice/6805533718:28
Keybukmdz: should there be any further activity?18:28
mdzKeybuk, yes, the bug should get fixed. :-) I don't think the TB needs to nag anyone just yet though18:29
Keybuk[LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/27392118:29
MootBotLINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/27392118:29
ubottuUbuntu bug 273921 in ubuntu-website-content "old http://www.no-name-yet.com/patches/ URLs broken" [Low,In progress]18:29
mdzthe only thing this is blocking for the TB is the long-standing drivers bug18:29
Keybukhas a follow-up saying it has been fixed18:29
Keybukand a test here suggests it has been18:29
mdzI think it's also obsoleted by DEX18:29
Keybukah, it's people.ubuntu.com/patches that works18:30
Keybuknot n-n-y.com18:30
Keybuknone of these seem to need follow-up yet18:30
mdzyes, and the patches are all indexed at http://dex.alioth.debian.org/ubuntu/ancient-patches/status/18:30
mdzKeybuk, one brief one18:30
mdzno decision to make18:31
Keybukmdz: go18:31
mdzbut I am curious if folks have any feedback on DEX or suggestions for what its next project should be18:31
KeybukI haven't seen DEX until you pasted that link18:31
MootBotLINK received:  http://mdzlog.alcor.net/2011/03/16/dex-debian-and-its-derivatives-getting-things-done-together/18:32
ScottKmdz: You might look at QA maintained packages in Debian with an Ubuntu diff and see how much if it can be just uploaded in Debian.18:32
pittimdz: what I'd really like to see is that more Ubuntu devs become committers for the debian package groups18:32
pittie. g. pkg-gnome18:32
MootBotLINK received:  http://www.debian.org/News/2011/2011031818:32
mdzScottK, I like that idea, thanks18:32
pittithis already works well for pkg-utopia (well, it's really just me, and a magnitude smaller than pkg-gnome), but for -gnome and -python it would certainly make stuff a lot more efficient18:32
mdzpitti, that's a good thing to work on, but hard to make actionable for DEX18:32
pittiI just don't have a good idea how to convey that in DEX, right18:33
mdzI'm looking for concrete projects which can be "finished"18:33
ScottKpitti: The Python teams are very open to Ubuntu people.18:33
ScottKpitti: I even have admin access to the projects to add them.18:33
pittiScottK: splendid18:33
mdzhttp://lists.debian.org/debian-derivatives/2011/03/msg00024.html explains current status and the other ideas under consideration18:33
MootBotLINK received:  http://lists.debian.org/debian-derivatives/2011/03/msg00024.html explains current status and the other ideas under consideration18:33
mdzthat's all18:33
Keybukok, whose next on rotation for chair?18:34
mdzalphabetically I think it's me18:34
Keybukmdz: are you able to do it?18:34
mdzcalendar looks clear18:34
* ScottK notes that wasn't actually a commitment.18:34
mdzKeybuk, yes18:35
Keybukok, great18:35
MootBotMeeting finished at 13:35.18:35
Keybukthanks all18:35
mdzScottK, I don't think he was questioning my ability or commitment, just my availability :-)18:35
pittithannks everyone18:35
mdzthanks Keybuk18:36
keesthanks Keybuk!18:36
KeybukI can't edit the wiki18:37
KeybukI just get INTERNAL SERVER ERROR18:37
highvoltagejust press f5 and it will tell you that you already saved the page18:38
pittiKeybuk: it'll still save your changes, though18:38
highvoltageor remove preview from the url and hit enter18:38
Keybukpitti: no, I get ISE when trying to *login* to the wiki18:38
pittiso I better not log out now?18:38
pitti(not that I ever did in the last 5 years or so..)18:39
pittimdz, Keybuk: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/723831/comments/1918:41
ubottuUbuntu bug 723831 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Installer – The option to 'install third-party software' when installing Ubuntu should be selected by default (aka "make Youtube work")" [Wishlist,Incomplete]18:41
cjwatsonpitti: thanks18:44
pittiI guess we should close the ubiquity task as "wontfix" as well?18:44
charlie-tca 18:59
mr_pouito hai19:00
charlie-tcaI need to make sure TB is finished with their meeting19:01
cjwatsoncharlie-tca: we are19:01
charlie-tcaThank you, cjohnston19:01
charlie-tcasorry, cjohnston19:01
charlie-tcathank you, cjwatson19:01
MootBotMeeting started at 14:01. The chair is charlie-tca.19:01
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]19:01
charlie-tcaThis is the weekly Xubuntu Community Meeting.19:02
charlie-tcaThe full agenda for today's meeting is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings19:02
charlie-tca[TOPIC] Old business19:03
MootBotNew Topic:  Old business19:03
charlie-tcaask knome to do some drafts with a grey background and a black background19:03
MootBotLINK received:  http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/website/draft-black.png19:03
MootBotLINK received:  http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/website/draft-lightgrey.png19:03
pleia2to compare, this is the blue one: http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/website1104b.png (imagine the other stuff in the body too :))19:04
* pleia2 prefers the blue19:04
charlie-tcaI like the light grey! It is bright and conveys a light feeling19:05
charlie-tcathe blue is good too. That has served us very well, and can stay as the default.19:05
charlie-tcaI find the black dark and dreary, though19:05
pleia2yeah, same19:05
charlie-tcaAny other comments on this?19:05
beardygnomehi everyone19:06
charlie-tcaI fear the light grey might become an eyesore, with the background and text and other stuff. It can easily become too bright.19:07
charlie-tcaHello, beardygnome19:07
charlie-tcaWe are looking at a couple of website drafts, http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/website/draft-black.png19:07
charlie-tcaand http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/website/draft-lightgrey.png19:07
charlie-tcacompared to http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/website1104b.png19:08
charlie-tcawhich is the current one19:08
charlie-tcaAny comment?19:08
charlie-tcaI can close the task now, at least. :-)19:08
beardygnomei prefer the blue one19:08
beardygnomefollowed by the black one19:08
pleia2knome prefers the blue as well19:09
beardygnomei agree with charlie-tca on the grey19:09
charlie-tcaLet's go with the blue then19:09
pleia2sounds good :)19:09
charlie-tcathanks for working on this, pleia219:09
* micahg likes the grey one, then blue19:09
mr_pouit+1 for the blue, too19:10
micahgmaybe a lighter blue?  it seems loud19:10
charlie-tcaNo, because it will do the same thing as the grey if it is lighter. It will make the eyes hurt after a little bit19:10
beardygnomei think it fits well with the rest of the page19:11
beardygnomeit's the same blue as in the logo, right?19:11
charlie-tcaI think so.19:11
charlie-tcaBlue is very good, and it keeps the colors together. It makes us seem like we know what we are doing19:12
charlie-tca[TOPIC] Team Updates19:13
MootBotNew Topic:  Team Updates19:13
charlie-tca[TOPIC] Packaging & Development19:13
MootBotNew Topic:  Packaging & Development19:13
charlie-tcamr_pouit: your turn?19:13
mr_pouit* Included the new default wallpaper (still missing the full-sized second one though)19:14
charlie-tcaI knew you did something, my computer went nuts this week!19:14
mr_pouit* Fixed another bug in garcon, related to monitoring  (Xfce #7423).19:14
mr_pouit* Included a patch from upstream git to fix a workspace size issue in xfce4-display-settings.19:14
mr_pouit* Restored the default blue for the alternative installer, instead of the aubergine that actually looks pink in all terms I tested (only gnome-terminal is fine).19:14
charlie-tca+1 on pink19:15
mr_pouit* Imported gmb 1.1.7 + shimmer patches.19:15
mr_pouitand I think micahg has uploaded xfce4-mixer 4.8.0 (but I didn't have time to check)19:15
mr_pouitthat's all I guess19:15
charlie-tcayou been busy again.19:16
charlie-tcaThank you very much for all your efforts!19:16
charlie-tcaAny questions for development?19:16
micahgI'll be uploading shortly19:16
charlie-tca[TOPIC] Bug Triage & Testing19:17
MootBotNew Topic:  Bug Triage & Testing19:17
charlie-tcaThe only thing triage and testing did is try to get things tested this week19:17
charlie-tca64bit alternate image is not available for Ubuntu and Xubuntu right now. I don't why.19:18
charlie-tcaWe have the beta1 release next week. Any testing is really appreciated. We would like to know the images look good this week, if possilbe19:18
charlie-tcaif possible, too19:18
charlie-tcaAny status on the slideshow?19:19
mr_pouitmerged a few days ago afaik19:20
mr_pouit(but I don't think they have been uploaded yet)19:20
charlie-tcaGreat! I guess I should look closer at the slides, then19:20
charlie-tcaWe will have it in the beta?19:20
mr_pouitI hope :p19:21
charlie-tca[TOPIC] Website & Marketing19:21
MootBotNew Topic:  Website & Marketing19:21
charlie-tcaany other updates here?19:21
charlie-tcapleia2: your turn19:21
charlie-tcahm, I will take that as a no, then.19:22
pleia2no updates, still waiting on canonical :(19:22
charlie-tcaI think the website is looking real good, and the fact that it now sends the news items to the Planet is a real bonus!19:23
charlie-tcaThanks for your hard work on that, pleia2 and knome!19:23
pleia2I might give the ticket a nudge this week to see where they are19:24
charlie-tca[TOPIC] Announcements19:24
MootBotNew Topic:  Announcements19:24
charlie-tcaBeta1 release of Natty is due next Thursday19:24
charlie-tcaUserInterfaceFreeze and BetaFreeze is today at 23:00 UTC19:25
charlie-tcaNatty Narwhal, to be released as Xubuntu 11.04, is due out on April 2919:25
charlie-tcaAnything else to announce?19:26
charlie-tca[TOPIC] Any Other Business19:26
MootBotNew Topic:  Any Other Business19:26
charlie-tcaI want to thank everyone for their participation in Xubuntu! It is great to have people getting involved.19:26
charlie-tcaI think we can skip next week, and have the next meeting in two weeks, on April 7 at 19:00 UTC19:27
charlie-tcaAny one have anything they want to bring up?19:28
mr_pouitAgreed, I don't think we'll have much to report because of the beta freeze.19:28
=== Thermi is now known as thermi
beardygnomebugs / issues to the ml then?19:28
charlie-tcaPlease help with testing next week if you can19:28
charlie-tcayes, beardygnome, please do send them to the ml19:28
beardygnomecharlie-tca: testing = using the beta, right?19:29
charlie-tcaor come on in to #xubuntu-devel and ask us :-)19:29
pleia2charlie-tca: how are the testing docs looking?19:29
=== thermi is now known as Thermi
charlie-tcatesting next week is the ISO testing for the release, per https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/ISO/Procedures19:30
charlie-tcabut, yes, we want you to use the beta, if you can, also19:30
charlie-tcapleia2: smack me19:30
charlie-tcaI will go look at them today19:30
pleia2thank you :)19:31
mr_pouitWhat about xubuntu-docs?19:31
charlie-tcaMy trackball broke, and I am down to a mouse that hurts my hands19:31
charlie-tcamr_pouit: as far as I know, they are ready to go19:31
pleia2at our Jam we'll be focusing on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/TestingInfo/Short with LiveCD (I doubt many will be able to do installs)19:31
charlie-tcaI will hunt down Daniel to verify it.19:32
pleia2so as long as all that's up to date, we're good19:32
charlie-tca[ACTION] check on 11.04 docs19:32
MootBotACTION received:  check on 11.04 docs19:32
charlie-tcaThat page works well, pleia219:32
pleia2and general "click around and break things" testing :)19:32
pleia2ok great19:32
charlie-tcaIf we can get the apps checked out, and see if the panels, etc work, that would be terrific19:33
pleia2sounds good19:33
charlie-tcago ahead, beardygnome19:33
beardygnomewhere has the icon box panel applet gone?19:34
charlie-tcawhat is it?19:34
charlie-tcaIt may not be a Xfce 4.8 compatible plugin19:34
beardygnomeit's like the task list (10.10) / window buttons (11.04) applet, but only shows the window icon rather than the name etc19:35
mr_pouitor it may have been merged with another plugin or simply dropped.19:35
Sysiwindow buttons can be set to work like it19:35
beardygnomethey can? excellent19:35
beardygnomevery hand for a netbook screen19:35
beardygnomeespecially as the windown buttons are at the top now19:35
charlie-tcayeah, a few changes19:36
beardygnomeSysi: is that in the applet's preferneces?19:36
charlie-tcaFor confusion, run two systems, on with 10.04 defaults and one with natty side by side monitors19:36
Sysibeardygnome: yup19:36
beardygnomei'll check that out later19:37
charlie-tca[ACTION] Review Testing wiki pages - charlie-tca19:38
MootBotACTION received:  Review Testing wiki pages - charlie-tca19:38
charlie-tcaAny thing else ?19:38
charlie-tcaIf not, we will see everyone in TWO weeks this time.19:38
charlie-tcaThanks for showing up!19:38
MootBotMeeting finished at 14:38.19:38
beardygnomecharlie-tca: I had a question for you about involvement with the xubuntu project19:39
charlie-tcaWell, by all means, ask19:40
beardygnomeit seems to me that a lot of the people who show up to these meetings are doing very practical things to drive xubuntu forward19:40
beardygnomelike artwork, packaging etc19:41
charlie-tcayes, they are19:41
beardygnomewhereas i'm just showing up here, voting and generally using xubuntu19:41
charlie-tcaand telling us where we broke things, and reviewing docs :-)19:42
beardygnomeso what i'm wondering is what's the path from where i am to where, for example, you are?19:42
Sysivolunteer to tasks you are able to do, larn more and do different tasks19:43
charlie-tcashowing up in #xubuntu-devel, helping out where you are able to, stepping in and fixing things like the wiki pages for us.19:43
* charlie-tca had to think of the right way to say all that ;-)19:44
beardygnomeso #xubuntu-devel is where the tasks that need doing are discussed and allocated?19:45
charlie-tcathey are discussed. We seldom allocate tasks to specific people if they don't step up first.19:45
Sysimailing lists also?19:45
beardygnomethat's what i meant19:46
charlie-tcayes, that would be right, then.19:46
beardygnomei'm on the ml but there doesn't seem to be that much activity on there at the moment19:46
charlie-tcaWe just throw the tasks out there, like, "We need to update the slideshow"19:46
charlie-tcaWe also have some discussions, but generally it is pretty quiet in -devel for us19:47
charlie-tcabut that is the place where things do happen19:47
beardygnomei guess the big tasks are packaging, documentation and marketing?19:47
charlie-tcatesting and bugs, too.19:47
charlie-tcawithout testing, the final product kind of stinks19:48
charlie-tcaI started out just testing the images daily and coming in to #xubuntu-devel to tell what they did that day19:48
beardygnomeso generally you're waiting for people to step up and say "i'll do that", rather than having people whose "job" it is to do them?19:49
charlie-tcaexactly. It is pretty difficult to assign jobs, when people are volunteers and not always available.19:49
beardygnomewell you're doing a good job, as things seem to be running pretty smoithly from my point of view19:50
charlie-tcaIf someone is testing on a continuous basis, we will ask them to take the testing lead position.19:50
charlie-tcabut to tell someone they have to test daily is kind of difficult19:50
Sysihttp://doc.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/ is this xubuntu- or doc team's responsibility area?19:50
beardygnomewhat does testing lead involve, other than the testing?19:51
charlie-tcanever heard of it19:51
charlie-tcabeardygnome: keeping up the testing pages at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing19:51
charlie-tcafiling bugs for the things that are broken19:51
charlie-tcaSysi: I don't even know where that comes from...19:52
charlie-tcaDoes all that make any sense?19:53
beardygnomeas a newbie to this, i didn't want to jump in and offer to do loads of stuff as i wasn't sure if that was the right way to go about things19:53
beardygnomeplus, i've been crazy busy at work recently19:53
Sysicharlie-tca: doc.ubuntu com seems to be leading to ubuntu doc team19:53
charlie-tcaWell, having you go through those docs before was great! That really did help us.19:53
charlie-tcaSysi: I will ask Daniel then, maybe he knows, or I can track down j1mc about it.19:54
beardygnomeglad to be of service :-)19:54
charlie-tcaThe help we get is why I try to let everyone participate in these meetings.19:54
beardygnomei'll try to drop in to #xubuntu-devel every few days and see if there's anything i can help out with19:54
charlie-tcaSysi: Then we should talk with Book_Em_Dano about that too, shouldn't we?19:55
Sysirelated to this, as regular irc helper, would i need to join xubuntu-team?19:55
charlie-tcaThanks, beardygnome19:55
beardygnomei'm a bit wary of offering to do stuff in case i need loads of help with it or can't get it done for some reason19:55
beardygnomeand people wish they'd done it themselves19:56
Unit193If I know how, I would help19:56
charlie-tcaI told the the whole team "I am just a user" for over year, helping where I could19:56
charlie-tcaUnit193: Do you know how to review and edit the wiki?19:56
Unit193charlie-tca: I have never done it19:57
beardygnomei don't know how to do that19:57
charlie-tcaYou could just  open every application and see if it works.19:57
charlie-tcaIf you can do an install once a week or so, that would help.19:58
Unit193Also check for broken links and report them?19:58
charlie-tcaEven in VirtualBox, it gives us more than one person saying something is wrong19:58
charlie-tcayes, Unit19319:58
charlie-tcawe need to find those19:58
charlie-tcaRead through the help for each application, and see if it makes sense or even exists.19:59
charlie-tcaIf you use a language other then English, is help available in that language? Do the menus work?19:59
charlie-tcaWhen looking at wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu, does the page make sense, or is it outdated for natty?20:00
beardygnomecharlie-tca: how do we edit the wiki if it is wrong?20:00
charlie-tcaclick the edit button on the page and make the corrections. Every change is verified, and can be changed back if need be.20:01
beardygnomethanks for the help charlie-tca20:02
Unit193beardygnome: Would this help? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnEditing20:02
charlie-tcaI am subscribed to every page having to with Xubuntu20:02
charlie-tcaso, I see every change that is made to those pages20:02
beardygnomethanks Unit19320:03
charlie-tcaIf it bothers you to edit it, just let us know on the mailing list what is wrong, and we will get it fixed.20:03
beardygnomegot to leave now, but will try to drop in to the devel room later.  are most of you on european or us time?20:03
charlie-tcahalf of us are USA and half are Europe20:05
beardygnomeso there should be someone around most times then20:05
beardygnomesee you later20:05
=== Thermi is now known as thermi

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