[15:00] <ogra_> shmoo
[15:01]  * ogra_ twiddles thumbs
[15:02] <NCommander> #startmeeting
[15:02] <ogra_> GrueMaster, can you poke him ?
[15:02] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:02. The chair is NCommander.
[15:02] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[15:02] <ogra_> ah :)
[15:02] <NCommander> Had to retrieve my laptop charger from underneath someone
[15:02] <ogra_> someone eh ?
[15:02] <ogra_> who is she ?
[15:03] <NCommander> ogra_: random bodies on the couch
[15:03] <ogra_> oh, more than one
[15:03] <GrueMaster> I had a bunch of rain soaked campers show up late last night.
[15:03] <rsalveti> hahah
[15:03] <NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/20110324
[15:03] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/20110324
[15:03] <NCommander> [topic] Action Item Review
[15:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item Review
[15:04] <NCommander> [topic] ogra to determine if mono still crashes on tegra
[15:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  ogra to determine if mono still crashes on tegra
[15:04] <janimo> hi
[15:05]  * NCommander pokes ogra_ 
[15:05] <ogra_> NCommander, c/o
[15:05] <NCommander> ogra_: k
[15:05] <NCommander> [topic] Standing Items
[15:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  Standing Items
[15:05] <NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel.html
[15:05] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel.html
[15:06] <NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-ubuntu-11.04-beta-1.html
[15:06] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-ubuntu-11.04-beta-1.html
[15:06] <rsalveti> just moved one WI from edid bp to done, the others will wait until beginning of next week, then if not yet done will move it
[15:07] <rsalveti> had to spend more time than I wanted with the pvr drivers
[15:07]  * ogra_ wishes ff4 wouldnt lock his machine all the time
[15:08] <NCommander> anything else or can I move one?
[15:08] <GrueMaster> I will have my task completed next week.
[15:08]  * ogra_ didnt have a chance to look at the tracker yet
[15:08] <ogra_> one sec
[15:09] <ogra_> ff4 is really unhappy on arm wrt RAM usage
[15:09] <ogra_> move, looks fine
[15:09] <ogra_> (sorry for delaying)
[15:10] <rsalveti> NCommander: move! :-)
[15:10]  * ogra_ will kill the serial tty stuff, wont go into upstart, is better in jasper now
[15:10] <GrueMaster> He's having network issues.
[15:10] <ogra_> and the kbd bug will be postponed
[15:10] <NCommander> [[to[topic] Unity 2D Status
[15:10] <ogra_> GrueMaster, tell the guys on the sofa to move off the network cable then
[15:11] <NCommander> [topic] Unity 2D Status
[15:11] <MootBot> New Topic:  Unity 2D Status
[15:11] <ogra_> we have 3.8 since yesterday :)
[15:11] <ogra_> closed over 60 bugs
[15:11] <rsalveti> \o/
[15:11] <ogra_> please test as soon as netbook builds again
[15:11]  * ogra_ really likes it
[15:11] <NCommander> ogra_: can we have changelog messages that are useful to glance at without referencing a lot of LP bugs? kthxbye :-P
[15:11] <GrueMaster> I'll do a dist-upgrade today.
[15:12] <ogra_> NCommander, nope
[15:12] <ogra_> not if i have to manually add >60 entries myself :P
[15:12] <GrueMaster> ogra_: I few of the others here in pdx were also commenting on that.
[15:12] <GrueMaster> Apparently there is a tool to do this.
[15:12] <ogra_> GrueMaster, i'm trying to teach upstream to use dch but they arent there yet
[15:13] <ogra_> the list of bugs was necessary for the lp janitor
[15:13] <ogra_> else i would have left that one out too like i usually do
[15:13] <ogra_> anyway, move
[15:13] <NCommander> ogra_: your the maintainer, when I look at changelogs, I expect sometihng useful :-P.
[15:13] <NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, rsalveti)
[15:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney, rsalveti)
[15:14] <ogra_> NCommander, look at the treee then
[15:14] <rsalveti> Ubuntu-2.6.38-1206.8 just uploaded for omap4
[15:14] <ogra_> will need a rebuild though
[15:14] <rsalveti> this kernel should have better support for wifi, full hdmi support and SGX compatible
[15:14] <ogra_> new gcc was uploaded too ... right afterwards
[15:14] <NCommander> ow
[15:15] <rsalveti> ogra_: after this kernel hits the archive you can remove the cmd arguments for dvi
[15:15] <ogra_> rsalveti, yep, on my list
[15:15] <ogra_> the question is if images are buildable again *before* the new kernel is there :)
[15:16] <rsalveti> :-)
[15:16] <ogra_> i doubt the kernel has settled before saturday
[15:16] <rsalveti> probably
[15:16] <rsalveti> I also updated the SGX kernel module to be compatible with 38, so it should just work now if you install the sgx packages from tiomap-dev/trunk ppa
[15:17] <ogra_> btw, given that ppisati does SRUs and the like, he should probably be added to this topic too :)
[15:17] <rsalveti> after it's properly tested I'll move the sgx stuff to the release ppa, and we can start testing the ti icon again
[15:17] <ogra_> in case he has to report anything
[15:17] <rsalveti> ogra_: yeah, makes sense
[15:18] <ogra_> and to give GrueMaster a chance to whine at him for having to test all these old releases ;)
[15:18] <rsalveti> NCommander: can you also add ppisati to the topic?
[15:18] <janimo> rsalveti, no sgx drivers into restricted/multiverse this cycle?
[15:18] <GrueMaster> I get plenty of whineing in on #ubuntu-kernel.  :P
[15:18] <rsalveti> janimo: not yet, still waiting some more updates from TI (and IMG)
[15:18] <NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
[15:18] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
[15:18] <rsalveti> janimo: so not to a point that we'll get just bugixing
[15:18] <NCommander> bah
[15:18] <NCommander> damn lag
[15:19] <lag> NCommander: Grrrrrrrrrr
[15:19] <GrueMaster> heh
[15:19] <ogra_> he is in linaro now
[15:19] <GrueMaster> That makes it worse.  :P
[15:19] <NCommander> lag: not you, referring to latency
[15:20] <NCommander> anyway
[15:20] <ogra_> that linaro has the lag ?
[15:20] <NCommander> ANYWAY
[15:20] <ogra_> :)
[15:20] <ogra_> is mono fixed ?
[15:20] <NCommander> I stumbled upon a workaround for mono last night that allows us to disable SMP for it
[15:21] <rsalveti> ogra_: 2.6.38-1206.7 finished building already, but don't know yet if it's in the archive
[15:21] <NCommander> I need to code a patch to make this the default behavior on ARM, but f-spot and banshee appear to work properly
[15:21] <janimo> NCommander, you mean mono to only use one core?
[15:21] <GrueMaster> I tested this on panda last night.  It does work, and better than panda running nosmp.
[15:21] <janimo> good news!
[15:21] <ogra_> awesome !
[15:21] <NCommander> janimo: yeah, which sidesteps the whole Mono on ARM dies horribly on SMP machines
[15:21] <NCommander> I poked upstream .
[15:22] <janimo> it's a good workaround I guess
[15:22] <rsalveti> awesome
[15:22] <NCommander> but they haven't responded with a good way to debug the ARM specific code for SMP safety, and nothing obvious jumps up
[15:22] <janimo> rsalveti, but the SGX stuff is planned for inclusion into the archives just blocked right now?
[15:23] <janimo> NCommander, and the issue is present on 2.10 as well?
[15:23] <NCommander> Question: since we have *gasp* a working mono*/gasp*, are we going to change our seeds to now resemble the desktop versions of Ubuntu
[15:23] <janimo> once the mono package is updated I'd say yes
[15:23] <ogra_> we will drop RB and pull in banshee
[15:24] <NCommander> janimo: yes still screwing around with it, but I'm seeing if theres a way to run mono under valgrind which one would hope find the damn SMP headache
[15:24] <ogra_> not sure what other mono apps are in desktop
[15:24] <GrueMaster> f-spot
[15:24] <NCommander> ogra_: f-spot + tomboy
[15:24] <ogra_> huh ?
[15:24] <ogra_> f-spot is gone since maverick
[15:24] <rsalveti> janimo: I'll try to request the inclusion, once we get what will be the final version for this cycle, but the dev is still going heavily atm
[15:24] <GrueMaster> I thought they brought it back.
[15:24]  * GrueMaster checks.
[15:24] <ogra_> i dont think so
[15:25] <ogra_> but i'll compare the seeds if i have to make the changes
[15:25] <ogra_> as soon as i get a go for it
[15:25] <NCommander> I'll cook up something today or tomorrow and upload
[15:25] <ogra_> no hurry
[15:25] <rsalveti> banshee should be our best test case
[15:25] <ogra_> qeueu is    so full it will take days anyway
[15:25] <NCommander> rsalveti: unfortnately without workign sound on Panda it is a tad difficult to know if it works fully
[15:26] <ogra_> NCommander, though dont forget we're frozen
[15:26] <rsalveti> as f-spot is out for shotwell
[15:26] <ogra_> beta-1 freeze kicks in later today
[15:26] <NCommander> ogra_: I'll poke the release team
[15:26] <GrueMaster> Just checked x86 manifest.  Still shotwell.
[15:26] <janimo> NCommander, aren't there some pulse audio trick to redirect sound to another machine?
[15:26] <ogra_> not sure they want to take the risk for other arches
[15:26]  * NCommander whimpers in fear at janimo's suggestion
[15:26] <NCommander> ogra_: its going to be a patch wrapped with #ifdef ARM
[15:27] <ogra_> great
[15:27] <ogra_> -that should work
[15:27] <NCommander> anyway
[15:27] <NCommander> moving on
[15:27] <NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
[15:27] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
[15:27] <ogra_> headless is perfect !
[15:27] <ogra_> all our preinstalled images are fully preseedable on cmdline now
[15:27] <NCommander> ogra_: cool, I didn't know you found a way to run without your head!
[15:27]  * NCommander ducks
[15:28] <ogra_> (will add preseed file support in OO)
[15:28] <ogra_> NCommander, google for stoertebeker ;) we northern gearmans are famouos for running without head
[15:28] <NCommander> ogra_: I won't know :-)
[15:29] <ogra_> i havent looked at netbook for about two weeks, GrueMaster do you know what happened to the gnome-settings-daemon issue ?
[15:29] <ogra_> i havent seen a bug for it and didnt file one either
[15:29] <GrueMaster> It was still there on the 0321 image, but updating fixed it.
[15:29] <ogra_> but if it still happens i'd call that a beta blocker
[15:29] <ogra_> oh, and our omap3 builder seems to be broken
[15:30] <ogra_> i pinged lamont in -release earlier today and also generally pinged in #is but didnt get any answers yet
[15:30] <GrueMaster> Not sure if an update actually fixed it or something shook loose.  May still happen on fresh image.
[15:30] <ogra_> yeah, we need to check that asap
[15:30] <GrueMaster> Hard w/o a fresh image.
[15:30] <ogra_> but with the archive as it is now itr will still take a while until we can build again
[15:31] <ogra_> GrueMaster, dont tell me
[15:31] <ogra_> working on headless was real fun :)
[15:31] <ogra_> nothing holds up rebuilds
[15:31] <ogra_> anyway, NCommander move
[15:31] <NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster)
[15:31] <MootBot> New Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster)
[15:32] <GrueMaster> Testing SRU kernels for dove seems to be the highlight of the week.  3 kernels at one time in proposed.
[15:32] <ogra_> fun
[15:32] <GrueMaster> Made sure the latest kernel had all of the previous fixes prior to testing.
[15:33] <GrueMaster> Also started looking into some other more obscure bugs that are still open.
[15:34] <GrueMaster> Installed unity-2d-latest on maverick from daily ppa.  Works much better so far.
[15:34] <ogra_> natty would be more intresting though
[15:34] <GrueMaster> I wish they would add natty to their daily builds.
[15:34] <ogra_> since -2d uses bits and pieces that are only in natty
[15:35] <GrueMaster> They keep telling me to retest with daily on maverick when I run into bugs.
[15:35] <GrueMaster> They only build natty daily for x86 I think.
[15:36] <ogra_> well, it doesnt help much to test on maverick if the bug is in interaction with other    desktop pieces
[15:36] <GrueMaster> Don't tell me.
[15:36] <ogra_> indicator, bamf and the dash protocol are completely different
[15:36] <ogra_> but we have the latest in natty now
[15:37] <GrueMaster> So, should I pull my own bzr tree and do my own daily builds?  I really don't have the resources to do that.
[15:37] <ogra_> i also expect development to slow down a bit with the freezes getting colder
[15:38] <NCommander> anything else or can I move on?
[15:38] <GrueMaster> move
[15:38] <NCommander> [topic] AOB
[15:38] <MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
[15:40] <ogra_> everyone tell Amaranth to hurry up with compiz fixing for GLES :)
[15:40] <Amaranth> If I could get a working GLES stack somewhere :/
[15:40] <ogra_> yeah, blame mesa :P
[15:41] <ogra_> Amaranth, as discussed above, rsalveti has new drivers that will work with the new kernel :)
[15:42] <ogra_> NCommander, time to close ?
[15:42] <NCommander> #endmeeting
[15:42] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:42.
[17:00] <kees> hola
[17:00] <kees> oh, dst
[17:00] <kees> see you in an hour
[17:02] <Keybuk> morning
[17:03]  * czajkowski hugs Keybuk 
[17:05] <Keybuk> hmm, either nobody is here for the TB meeting
[17:05] <Keybuk> or I'm an hour early due to DST
[17:05] <Riddell> 17:00 < kees> oh, dst 17:00 < kees> see you in an hour
[17:06] <Keybuk> gnargh
[17:06]  * Keybuk updates his calendar
[17:54] <mdz> Keybuk, I added the outstanding items from my TB mailbox onto the agenda
[17:57] <Keybuk> mdz: thanks
[17:58] <mdz> I will need to leave at :30 unfortunately
[17:59] <Keybuk> ok, I see you've put your items on first
[17:59] <cjwatson> I will likely need to keep it shortish too
[17:59] <cjwatson> are we expecting sabdfl?
[17:59] <cjwatson> kees: here?
[17:59]  * pitti is here, FTR
[18:00]  * Keybuk is trying to find the mootbot documentation
[18:00] <pitti> Keybuk: hash startmeeting
[18:00] <mdz> cjwatson, according to the calendar, no
[18:00] <pitti> it'll print the commands
[18:00] <Keybuk> #startmeeting
[18:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 13:00. The chair is Keybuk.
[18:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[18:00] <cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScribesTeam/MootBot
[18:00] <Keybuk> good morning everyone ;-)
[18:00] <Keybuk> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
[18:00] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
[18:01] <Keybuk> [TOPIC] Action review
[18:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  Action review
[18:01] <pitti> hey Scott, howdy
[18:01] <Keybuk> thanks mdz for marking his items as done, likewise cjwatson
[18:01] <Keybuk> pitti: there's three items assigned to you, can you update us on those?
[18:01] <mdz> pitti's first one is done
[18:01] <Keybuk>  * pitti to kick off brainstorm review
[18:01] <Keybuk>  * pitti to respond to uTouch package set request
[18:01] <Keybuk>  * pitti to add PPU rights for Serge Hallyn per ML
[18:01] <pitti> all done
[18:02] <Keybuk> great, thanks pitti
[18:02] <pitti> brainstorm> 9/10 sent
[18:02] <pitti> still waiting for Andy's reply about the kernel issue
[18:02] <cjwatson> what's the tenth?
[18:02] <pitti> but I'm on it
[18:02] <cjwatson> ah
[18:02] <cjwatson> Andy is off getting married
[18:02] <cjwatson> I wouldn't recommend waiting for him
[18:02] <Keybuk> cjwatson: that woman must be a saint ...
[18:02] <pitti> and kudos for cjwatson for getting in the first response and fix
[18:02] <pitti> cjwatson: ah, thanks
[18:02] <pitti> (wasn't in the holiday cal)
[18:02] <cjwatson> ogasawara is filling in
[18:02] <Keybuk> [TOPIC] Proposal to install ubuntu-restricted-* by default (mdz)
[18:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Proposal to install ubuntu-restricted-* by default (mdz)
[18:03] <Keybuk> [LINK] http://launchpad.net/bugs/723831
[18:03] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://launchpad.net/bugs/723831
[18:03] <mdz> Jono passed this to technical-board@ about 2 weeks ago
[18:03] <mdz> it also came up in my Q&A last week
[18:03] <mdz> the short version is that it proposes ticking the "install third-party software" box by default
[18:04] <pitti> ah, I think this already came up once
[18:04] <cjwatson> personally, I'm very unhappy about crossing this line by default, even though I understand the reasons offered by the design team
[18:04] <Keybuk> is this third-party software licenced under open source licences?
[18:04] <ScottK> No.
[18:04] <Keybuk> or is this software non-free
[18:04] <mdz> Keybuk, nope, or we would almost certainly be installing it by default :-)
[18:04] <pitti> TBH I'm not too happy about it, as now it would take an informed decision to get free software (what we actually advertise on the cover)
[18:05] <mdz> I think there's no meaningful difference between installing it by default, and ticking a box which downloads and installs it by default
[18:05] <Keybuk> then the long version is that it proposes changes our stance from "we only use proprietary code if it's needed to get the hardware working" to "we install every bit of proprietary code we can to make farmville work"
[18:05] <pitti> mdz: agreed
[18:05] <Keybuk> mdz: agreed
[18:05] <pitti> I do agree to installing wlan drivers, but this is too much for me
[18:05] <Keybuk> perhaps legally there is a meaningful difference, but in terms of ourselves, there isn't
[18:06] <mdz> I assume that somewhere on our website there is still a page which says that Ubuntu is free software
[18:06] <mdz> and we make a deliberate exception for hardware compatibility only
[18:06] <mdz> and we limit that pretty strictly
[18:06] <m4n1sh> One more question: As bdrung said, can it be split this into two parts - gstreamer-* and non-free packages and then discuss
[18:06] <mdz> Keybuk, yes, I think the legal spectre in that bug is a distraction
[18:06] <pitti> http://www.ubuntu.com/project -> "The Ubuntu Promise
[18:06] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.ubuntu.com/project -> "The Ubuntu Promise
[18:06] <pitti> Ubuntu is free."
[18:07] <mdz> pitti, that's ambiguous though; there is a page which talks about licensing specifically, and the exception
[18:07] <cjwatson> I share bdrung's opinion to some extent; patent-problematic packages may carry risk (which Canonical would have to evaluate, I expect), but I don't regard them as having the same moral problems
[18:07] <mdz> I can't find anything since it was last reorganized...
[18:07] <pitti> yeah, currently searching for that; but I've seen it as well
[18:07] <highvoltage> mdz: http://www.canonical.com/about-ubuntu says that "Ubuntu is and always will be absolutely free."
[18:07] <mdz> http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/licensing
[18:07] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/licensing
[18:07] <highvoltage> mdz: *absolutely*
[18:07] <Keybuk> cjwatson: right, but we've always said that patent-problematic packages *can* go into main or universe
[18:07] <highvoltage> mdz: I'm just saying :)
[18:07]  * kees here now, catching up
[18:08] <Keybuk> and we've never shirked from installing them by default either (cf. ubuntu's font rendering)
[18:08] <cjwatson> Keybuk: yes; although there is a standing TB decision from years ago saying that libavcodec may not go on CDs
[18:08] <mdz> highvoltage, that "free" is at best ambiguous; i think the page I just linked to clarifies this particular point well though
[18:08] <cjwatson> from 2007-01-02
[18:08] <Keybuk> cjwatson: was there, I thought there was a standing "we need someone legal to make a decision"
[18:08] <mdz> the title of the bug ("make youtube work") implies that it's the non-free bits which are considered important
[18:09] <cjwatson> Keybuk: well, we can go back and analyse the logs some other time
[18:09] <Keybuk> cjwatson: indeed
[18:10] <Keybuk> I think we have a pretty good consensus here, would there be any objection to voting on the issue at hand?
[18:10] <pitti> mdz: right, last paragraph on that page is what I remembered
[18:10] <cjwatson> for me, this is a line in the sand - I don't really see a point in taking a stance on free software if we're going to give up when it's hard
[18:10] <pitti> and we already have the codec installer for totem, and plugin installer for flash
[18:10] <pitti> which can convey the problem in more words than this single and already overloaded tick box in the installer
[18:10] <mdz> if the question here is whether we consider the Flash plugin to be as vital to the user experience as, say, the ability to use a graphics card or a wifi adapter, then my position is "no"
[18:10] <cjwatson> I'm more than happy to continue a trend of making it easier for people who have a need
[18:11] <pitti> mdz: agreed; and more to it, we do offer free alternatives in the plugin installer, such as gnash
[18:11] <kees> yeah, I don't want non-free stuff in by default. that's totally against the principles of ubuntu.
[18:11] <Keybuk> [VOTE] Proposal to install ubuntu-restricted-* by default
[18:11] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Proposal to install ubuntu-restricted-* by default.
[18:11] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[18:11] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[18:11] <pitti> -1
[18:11] <MootBot> -1 received from pitti. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
[18:11] <cjwatson> -1
[18:11] <MootBot> -1 received from cjwatson. 0 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -2
[18:11] <kees> -1
[18:11] <MootBot> -1 received from kees. 0 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -3
[18:11] <mdz> pitti, joeyh pointed out on identi.ca:
[18:11] <mdz> "@mdz regarding making youtube "just work", the 90% solution (but 100% free) is to ship browsers with the html5 beta cookie enabled"
[18:11] <Keybuk> -1
[18:11] <MootBot> -1 received from Keybuk. 0 for, 4 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -4
[18:11] <mdz> -1
[18:11] <MootBot> -1 received from mdz. 0 for, 5 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -5
[18:11] <pitti> "A great day for freedom"
[18:11] <cjwatson> yes, making youtube just work is "wait until html5 is there"
[18:11] <Keybuk> [ENDVOTE]
[18:11] <MootBot> Final result is 0 for, 5 against. 0 abstained. Total: -5
[18:11] <popey> Thank you.
[18:11] <mdz> I feel like we're very close on web video
[18:11] <highvoltage> popey: +1 :)
[18:12] <ScottK> Nicely done.
[18:12] <mdz> and to lessen our resolve now would be counter-productive
[18:12] <Keybuk> [AGREED] Ubuntu will not enable ubuntu-restricted-* installation by default, and will retain its stance
[18:12] <MootBot> AGREED received:  Ubuntu will not enable ubuntu-restricted-* installation by default, and will retain its stance
[18:12] <mdz> someone will need to follow up on the bug
[18:12] <Keybuk> who feels they could be eloquent enough to do that?
[18:13] <pitti> I have no problem responding there
[18:13] <mdz> thanks pitti
[18:13] <Keybuk> ok
[18:13] <pitti> it's basically closing as wontfix with a friendnly, but clear summary of the discussion here
[18:13] <Keybuk> [ACTION] pitti to follow-up to bug 723813
[18:13] <MootBot> ACTION received:  pitti to follow-up to bug 723813
[18:13] <pitti> did it go away that quickly? :-)
[18:13] <Keybuk> [TOPIC] ubuntu-devel moderation (mdz)
[18:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  ubuntu-devel moderation (mdz)
[18:14] <mdz> so this is anecdata
[18:14] <Keybuk> "I'm concerned about moderation delays discouraging upstream/third-party participation"
[18:14] <mdz> but I wanted to bring it up and ask if anyone else had seen a problem
[18:14] <Keybuk> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/740065
[18:14] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/740065
[18:14] <mdz> I notice this because I tend to be slow catching up on ubuntu-devel
[18:14]  * Keybuk must admit, I unsubscribed from ubuntu-devel years ago
[18:14] <pitti> I certainly noticed that maybe two weeks ago I suddenly got a whole load of -devel@ mail dating back to January or so
[18:14] <mdz> and so as I'm working through my mailbox, I notice messages which are old and received no response
[18:15] <pitti> can we address this by giving more people access to moderation?
[18:15] <mdz> and sometimes they haven't actually been sent that long ago
[18:15] <pitti> I usually run listadmin two or three times a week, for -de@, -devel-announce@, techboard
[18:15] <mdz> pitti, maybe, to a degree
[18:15] <mdz> I wondered if cases like this should be handled by the patch pilot?
[18:15] <pitti> and I guess other people do as well
[18:15] <mdz> this is someone who is not directly participating in Ubuntu but has a patch they want to submit
[18:16] <pitti> do we only have one moderator for this ATM?
[18:16] <cjwatson> I'm sorry - speaking of freedom, nouveau ate itself
[18:17] <cjwatson> moderators for ubuntu-devel are currently me, Evan Dandrea, and Sarah Hobbs (inactive)
[18:17] <cjwatson> I think the appropriate resolution to this question is to add at least two or three more
[18:17] <pitti> I agree
[18:17] <cjwatson> (because that's more sensible than me just being guilty about not running listadmin often enough)
[18:17] <mdz> is there even a correspondence between "people listed as moderators" and "people who have the list moderation password"?
[18:18] <cjwatson> I believe so ...
[18:18] <mdz> from a governance perspective, I would be quite happy for any Ubuntu developer (who can post unmoderated to the list) to also approve other people's messages
[18:18] <mdz> I run listadmin but very irregularly
[18:18] <cjwatson> should I take an action to find several more people I trust, then, or do you want something a bit more inclusive than that?
[18:19] <mdz> if there is someplace where we can just publish the password where only developers will be able to see it, that seems like a good idea
[18:19] <kees> private bzr tree?
[18:19] <mdz> I also think that the patch pilot should scan the mailing list and pick up things like this
[18:19] <mdz> kees, interesting idea
[18:19] <pitti> well, we should at least ensure that moderators know the list policy
[18:19] <cjwatson> there's a wiki page for that
[18:19] <mdz> yp
[18:19] <mdz> yep
[18:20] <cjwatson> UbuntuDevelModeration
[18:21] <mdz> is it worth considering a reminder system or something like that, so that someone notices if the list hasn't been moderated for too long?
[18:21] <Keybuk> mdz: I'm pretty sure mailman sends those reminders ;-)
[18:21] <mdz> Keybuk, iirc it sends them *every day* so people filter them out
[18:21] <Keybuk> and I'm pretty sure people do exactly what they do with all such reminders, and /dev/null them
[18:21] <mdz> once a week would probably be sensible
[18:22] <kees> well, that's part of the disconnect between people listed as moderators and those with the password
[18:22] <Keybuk> mdz: it might be configurable, we should ask barry
[18:22] <mdz> and only if the list hadn't been moderated for >7 days
[18:22] <mdz> kees, also right
[18:22] <pitti> that would make them more useful indeed
[18:22] <cjwatson> moderators feel some responsibility (maybe not enough but ...)
[18:22] <pitti> I just grew a habit of running listadmin after my initial morning email catchup
[18:22] <cjwatson> so I don't know that I think we should just spread it far and wide, because then everyone will think that somebody else will do it
[18:22] <mdz> anyway, if Colin is willing to take an action to follow up on this, I trust his judgement for how to resolve the problem
[18:22] <cjwatson> I'd rather have a team large enough to keep up but small enough to care
[18:22] <mdz> we don't need to debate it here
[18:23]  * mdz de-bikesheds
[18:23] <Keybuk> ok,
[18:23] <Keybuk> [ACTION] cjwatson to stoke the fires of the ubuntu-devel moderation team
[18:23] <MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to stoke the fires of the ubuntu-devel moderation team
[18:23] <Keybuk> cjwatson: ok? :)
[18:24] <cjwatson> aye-aye
[18:24] <mdz> thanks cjwatson
[18:24] <Keybuk> [TOPIC] Ownership of package sets\
[18:24] <MootBot> New Topic:  Ownership of package sets\
[18:24] <Keybuk> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-March/000744.html
[18:24] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-March/000744.html
[18:25] <cjwatson> is that the mail from geser?
[18:25] <Keybuk> is Michael Bienia here?
[18:25] <cjwatson> (sorry, am avoiding X atm so that nouveau doesn't crash again)
[18:25] <mdz> cjwatson, yes
[18:25] <cjwatson> we resolved that on #ubuntu-motu, and geser filed a Launchpad bug; wgrant is going to sort it out
[18:25] <cjwatson> (and fix the data)
[18:25] <mdz> I added it to the agenda on his behalf, since I saw no reply on the ML
[18:25] <Keybuk> ok, nice and easy then
[18:25] <mdz> ok
[18:25] <cjwatson> LP wrongly set the new owner to the series owner rather than the previous package set owner
[18:26] <Keybuk> mdz scanned the ML archive for us prior to the meeting, thanks
[18:26] <Keybuk> argh
[18:26]  * Keybuk hates click-to-focus
[18:26] <Keybuk> I always ^W the wrong thing
[18:26] <Keybuk> in terms of community bugs,
[18:27] <Keybuk> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/451390
[18:27] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/451390
[18:27] <mdz> I've never forgiven GNOME for making ^W a shortcut for close
[18:27] <mdz> this had just been escalated the last time we looked at it
[18:28] <mdz> now it's importance=critical
[18:28] <mdz> but I don't see any further activity
[18:28] <Islington> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/723831  has this been discussed already?
[18:28] <mdz> Islington, yes, https://identi.ca/notice/68055337
[18:28] <Islington> thanks
[18:28] <Keybuk> mdz: should there be any further activity?
[18:29] <mdz> Keybuk, yes, the bug should get fixed. :-) I don't think the TB needs to nag anyone just yet though
[18:29] <Keybuk> ok
[18:29] <Keybuk> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/273921
[18:29] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/273921
[18:29] <mdz> the only thing this is blocking for the TB is the long-standing drivers bug
[18:29] <Keybuk> has a follow-up saying it has been fixed
[18:29] <Keybuk> and a test here suggests it has been
[18:29] <mdz> I think it's also obsoleted by DEX
[18:30] <Keybuk> ah, it's people.ubuntu.com/patches that works
[18:30] <Keybuk> not n-n-y.com
[18:30] <Keybuk> ok
[18:30] <Keybuk> none of these seem to need follow-up yet
[18:30] <Keybuk> AOB?
[18:30] <mdz> yes, and the patches are all indexed at http://dex.alioth.debian.org/ubuntu/ancient-patches/status/
[18:30] <mdz> Keybuk, one brief one
[18:31] <mdz> no decision to make
[18:31] <Keybuk> mdz: go
[18:31] <mdz> but I am curious if folks have any feedback on DEX or suggestions for what its next project should be
[18:31] <Keybuk> I haven't seen DEX until you pasted that link
[18:32] <mdz> http://mdzlog.alcor.net/2011/03/16/dex-debian-and-its-derivatives-getting-things-done-together/
[18:32] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://mdzlog.alcor.net/2011/03/16/dex-debian-and-its-derivatives-getting-things-done-together/
[18:32] <ScottK> mdz: You might look at QA maintained packages in Debian with an Ubuntu diff and see how much if it can be just uploaded in Debian.
[18:32] <pitti> mdz: what I'd really like to see is that more Ubuntu devs become committers for the debian package groups
[18:32] <pitti> e. g. pkg-gnome
[18:32] <mdz> http://www.debian.org/News/2011/20110318
[18:32] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.debian.org/News/2011/20110318
[18:32] <mdz> ScottK, I like that idea, thanks
[18:32] <pitti> this already works well for pkg-utopia (well, it's really just me, and a magnitude smaller than pkg-gnome), but for -gnome and -python it would certainly make stuff a lot more efficient
[18:32] <mdz> pitti, that's a good thing to work on, but hard to make actionable for DEX
[18:33] <pitti> I just don't have a good idea how to convey that in DEX, right
[18:33] <mdz> I'm looking for concrete projects which can be "finished"
[18:33] <ScottK> pitti: The Python teams are very open to Ubuntu people.
[18:33] <ScottK> pitti: I even have admin access to the projects to add them.
[18:33] <pitti> ScottK: splendid
[18:33] <mdz> http://lists.debian.org/debian-derivatives/2011/03/msg00024.html explains current status and the other ideas under consideration
[18:33] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://lists.debian.org/debian-derivatives/2011/03/msg00024.html explains current status and the other ideas under consideration
[18:33] <mdz> that's all
[18:34] <Keybuk> ok, whose next on rotation for chair?
[18:34] <mdz> alphabetically I think it's me
[18:34] <Keybuk> mdz: are you able to do it?
[18:34] <mdz> calendar looks clear
[18:34]  * ScottK notes that wasn't actually a commitment.
[18:35] <mdz> Keybuk, yes
[18:35] <Keybuk> ok, great
[18:35] <Keybuk> #endmeeting
[18:35] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:35.
[18:35] <Keybuk> thanks all
[18:35] <mdz> ScottK, I don't think he was questioning my ability or commitment, just my availability :-)
[18:35] <ScottK> :-)
[18:35] <pitti> thannks everyone
[18:36] <mdz> thanks Keybuk
[18:36] <kees> thanks Keybuk!
[18:37] <Keybuk> hmm
[18:37] <Keybuk> I can't edit the wiki
[18:37] <Keybuk> I just get INTERNAL SERVER ERROR
[18:38] <highvoltage> just press f5 and it will tell you that you already saved the page
[18:38] <pitti> Keybuk: it'll still save your changes, though
[18:38] <highvoltage> or remove preview from the url and hit enter
[18:38] <Keybuk> pitti: no, I get ISE when trying to *login* to the wiki
[18:38] <pitti> oh
[18:38] <pitti> so I better not log out now?
[18:39] <pitti> (not that I ever did in the last 5 years or so..)
[18:41] <pitti> mdz, Keybuk: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/723831/comments/19
[18:44] <cjwatson> pitti: thanks
[18:44] <pitti> I guess we should close the ubiquity task as "wontfix" as well?
[18:59] <charlie-tca>  
[19:00] <mr_pouit> o hai
[19:00] <charlie-tca> Hello
[19:01] <charlie-tca> I need to make sure TB is finished with their meeting
[19:01] <cjwatson> charlie-tca: we are
[19:01] <charlie-tca> Thank you, cjohnston
[19:01] <charlie-tca> sorry, cjohnston
[19:01] <charlie-tca> thank you, cjwatson
[19:01] <charlie-tca> #startmeeting
[19:01] <MootBot> Meeting started at 14:01. The chair is charlie-tca.
[19:01] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[19:02] <charlie-tca> This is the weekly Xubuntu Community Meeting.
[19:02] <charlie-tca> The full agenda for today's meeting is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
[19:03] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Old business
[19:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  Old business
[19:03] <charlie-tca> ask knome to do some drafts with a grey background and a black background
[19:03] <pleia2> yep
[19:03] <pleia2> http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/website/draft-black.png
[19:03] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/website/draft-black.png
[19:03] <pleia2> http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/website/draft-lightgrey.png
[19:03] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/website/draft-lightgrey.png
[19:03] <charlie-tca> Great!
[19:04] <pleia2> to compare, this is the blue one: http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/website1104b.png (imagine the other stuff in the body too :))
[19:04]  * pleia2 prefers the blue
[19:05] <charlie-tca> I like the light grey! It is bright and conveys a light feeling
[19:05] <charlie-tca> the blue is good too. That has served us very well, and can stay as the default.
[19:05] <charlie-tca> I find the black dark and dreary, though
[19:05] <pleia2> yeah, same
[19:05] <charlie-tca> Any other comments on this?
[19:06] <beardygnome> hi everyone
[19:07] <charlie-tca> I fear the light grey might become an eyesore, with the background and text and other stuff. It can easily become too bright.
[19:07] <charlie-tca> Hello, beardygnome
[19:07] <charlie-tca> We are looking at a couple of website drafts, http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/website/draft-black.png
[19:07] <charlie-tca> and http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/website/draft-lightgrey.png
[19:08] <charlie-tca> compared to http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/website1104b.png
[19:08] <charlie-tca> which is the current one
[19:08] <charlie-tca> Any comment?
[19:08] <charlie-tca> I can close the task now, at least. :-)
[19:08] <pleia2> :)
[19:08] <beardygnome> i prefer the blue one
[19:08] <beardygnome> followed by the black one
[19:09] <pleia2> knome prefers the blue as well
[19:09] <beardygnome> i agree with charlie-tca on the grey
[19:09] <charlie-tca> Let's go with the blue then
[19:09] <pleia2> sounds good :)
[19:09] <charlie-tca> thanks for working on this, pleia2
[19:09]  * micahg likes the grey one, then blue
[19:10] <mr_pouit> +1 for the blue, too
[19:10] <micahg> maybe a lighter blue?  it seems loud
[19:10] <charlie-tca> No, because it will do the same thing as the grey if it is lighter. It will make the eyes hurt after a little bit
[19:11] <beardygnome> i think it fits well with the rest of the page
[19:11] <beardygnome> it's the same blue as in the logo, right?
[19:11] <charlie-tca> I think so.
[19:11] <pleia2> yeah
[19:12] <charlie-tca> Blue is very good, and it keeps the colors together. It makes us seem like we know what we are doing
[19:13] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Team Updates
[19:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  Team Updates
[19:13] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Packaging & Development
[19:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  Packaging & Development
[19:13] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: your turn?
[19:13] <mr_pouit> okay
[19:14] <mr_pouit> * Included the new default wallpaper (still missing the full-sized second one though)
[19:14] <charlie-tca> I knew you did something, my computer went nuts this week!
[19:14] <mr_pouit> * Fixed another bug in garcon, related to monitoring  (Xfce #7423).
[19:14] <mr_pouit> aha
[19:14] <mr_pouit> * Included a patch from upstream git to fix a workspace size issue in xfce4-display-settings.
[19:14] <mr_pouit> * Restored the default blue for the alternative installer, instead of the aubergine that actually looks pink in all terms I tested (only gnome-terminal is fine).
[19:15] <charlie-tca> +1 on pink
[19:15] <mr_pouit> * Imported gmb 1.1.7 + shimmer patches.
[19:15] <mr_pouit> and I think micahg has uploaded xfce4-mixer 4.8.0 (but I didn't have time to check)
[19:15] <mr_pouit> that's all I guess
[19:15] <charlie-tca> WOW!
[19:16] <charlie-tca> you been busy again.
[19:16] <charlie-tca> Thank you very much for all your efforts!
[19:16] <charlie-tca> Any questions for development?
[19:16] <micahg> I'll be uploading shortly
[19:16] <mr_pouit> :)
[19:17] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Bug Triage & Testing
[19:17] <MootBot> New Topic:  Bug Triage & Testing
[19:17] <charlie-tca> The only thing triage and testing did is try to get things tested this week
[19:18] <charlie-tca> 64bit alternate image is not available for Ubuntu and Xubuntu right now. I don't why.
[19:18] <charlie-tca> We have the beta1 release next week. Any testing is really appreciated. We would like to know the images look good this week, if possilbe
[19:18] <charlie-tca> if possible, too
[19:19] <charlie-tca> Any status on the slideshow?
[19:20] <mr_pouit> merged a few days ago afaik
[19:20] <mr_pouit> (but I don't think they have been uploaded yet)
[19:20] <charlie-tca> Great! I guess I should look closer at the slides, then
[19:20] <charlie-tca> We will have it in the beta?
[19:21] <mr_pouit> I hope :p
[19:21] <charlie-tca> Thanks.
[19:21] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Website & Marketing
[19:21] <MootBot> New Topic:  Website & Marketing
[19:21] <charlie-tca> any other updates here?
[19:21] <charlie-tca> pleia2: your turn
[19:22] <charlie-tca> hm, I will take that as a no, then.
[19:22] <pleia2> no updates, still waiting on canonical :(
[19:23] <charlie-tca> I think the website is looking real good, and the fact that it now sends the news items to the Planet is a real bonus!
[19:23] <pleia2> yeah
[19:23] <charlie-tca> Thanks for your hard work on that, pleia2 and knome!
[19:24] <pleia2> I might give the ticket a nudge this week to see where they are
[19:24] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Announcements
[19:24] <MootBot> New Topic:  Announcements
[19:24] <charlie-tca> Beta1 release of Natty is due next Thursday
[19:25] <charlie-tca> UserInterfaceFreeze and BetaFreeze is today at 23:00 UTC
[19:25] <charlie-tca> Natty Narwhal, to be released as Xubuntu 11.04, is due out on April 29
[19:26] <charlie-tca> Anything else to announce?
[19:26] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Any Other Business
[19:26] <MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
[19:26] <charlie-tca> I want to thank everyone for their participation in Xubuntu! It is great to have people getting involved.
[19:27] <charlie-tca> I think we can skip next week, and have the next meeting in two weeks, on April 7 at 19:00 UTC
[19:28] <charlie-tca> Any one have anything they want to bring up?
[19:28] <mr_pouit> Agreed, I don't think we'll have much to report because of the beta freeze.
[19:28] <beardygnome> bugs / issues to the ml then?
[19:28] <charlie-tca> Please help with testing next week if you can
[19:28] <charlie-tca> yes, beardygnome, please do send them to the ml
[19:29] <beardygnome> charlie-tca: testing = using the beta, right?
[19:29] <charlie-tca> or come on in to #xubuntu-devel and ask us :-)
[19:29] <pleia2> charlie-tca: how are the testing docs looking?
[19:30] <charlie-tca> testing next week is the ISO testing for the release, per https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/ISO/Procedures
[19:30] <charlie-tca> but, yes, we want you to use the beta, if you can, also
[19:30] <charlie-tca> pleia2: smack me
[19:30] <charlie-tca> I will go look at them today
[19:31] <pleia2> thank you :)
[19:31] <mr_pouit> What about xubuntu-docs?
[19:31] <charlie-tca> My trackball broke, and I am down to a mouse that hurts my hands
[19:31] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: as far as I know, they are ready to go
[19:31] <pleia2> at our Jam we'll be focusing on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/TestingInfo/Short with LiveCD (I doubt many will be able to do installs)
[19:32] <charlie-tca> I will hunt down Daniel to verify it.
[19:32] <pleia2> so as long as all that's up to date, we're good
[19:32] <charlie-tca> [ACTION] check on 11.04 docs
[19:32] <MootBot> ACTION received:  check on 11.04 docs
[19:32] <charlie-tca> That page works well, pleia2
[19:32] <pleia2> and general "click around and break things" testing :)
[19:32] <pleia2> ok great
[19:33] <charlie-tca> If we can get the apps checked out, and see if the panels, etc work, that would be terrific
[19:33] <pleia2> sounds good
[19:33] <beardygnome> o/
[19:33] <charlie-tca> go ahead, beardygnome
[19:34] <beardygnome> where has the icon box panel applet gone?
[19:34] <charlie-tca> what is it?
[19:34] <charlie-tca> It may not be a Xfce 4.8 compatible plugin
[19:35] <beardygnome> it's like the task list (10.10) / window buttons (11.04) applet, but only shows the window icon rather than the name etc
[19:35] <mr_pouit> or it may have been merged with another plugin or simply dropped.
[19:35] <Sysi> window buttons can be set to work like it
[19:35] <beardygnome> they can? excellent
[19:35] <beardygnome> very hand for a netbook screen
[19:35] <beardygnome> especially as the windown buttons are at the top now
[19:36] <charlie-tca> yeah, a few changes
[19:36] <beardygnome> Sysi: is that in the applet's preferneces?
[19:36] <charlie-tca> For confusion, run two systems, on with 10.04 defaults and one with natty side by side monitors
[19:36] <Sysi> beardygnome: yup
[19:37] <beardygnome> i'll check that out later
[19:37] <beardygnome> thanks
[19:38] <charlie-tca> [ACTION] Review Testing wiki pages - charlie-tca
[19:38] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Review Testing wiki pages - charlie-tca
[19:38] <charlie-tca> Any thing else ?
[19:38] <charlie-tca> If not, we will see everyone in TWO weeks this time.
[19:38] <charlie-tca> Thanks for showing up!
[19:38] <charlie-tca> #endmeeting
[19:38] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 14:38.
[19:39] <beardygnome> charlie-tca: I had a question for you about involvement with the xubuntu project
[19:40] <charlie-tca> Well, by all means, ask
[19:40] <beardygnome> it seems to me that a lot of the people who show up to these meetings are doing very practical things to drive xubuntu forward
[19:41] <beardygnome> like artwork, packaging etc
[19:41] <charlie-tca> yes, they are
[19:41] <beardygnome> whereas i'm just showing up here, voting and generally using xubuntu
[19:42] <charlie-tca> and telling us where we broke things, and reviewing docs :-)
[19:42] <beardygnome> so what i'm wondering is what's the path from where i am to where, for example, you are?
[19:43] <Sysi> volunteer to tasks you are able to do, larn more and do different tasks
[19:43] <charlie-tca> showing up in #xubuntu-devel, helping out where you are able to, stepping in and fixing things like the wiki pages for us.
[19:44]  * charlie-tca had to think of the right way to say all that ;-)
[19:45] <beardygnome> so #xubuntu-devel is where the tasks that need doing are discussed and allocated?
[19:45] <charlie-tca> they are discussed. We seldom allocate tasks to specific people if they don't step up first.
[19:45] <Sysi> mailing lists also?
[19:46] <beardygnome> that's what i meant
[19:46] <charlie-tca> yes, that would be right, then.
[19:46] <beardygnome> i'm on the ml but there doesn't seem to be that much activity on there at the moment
[19:46] <charlie-tca> We just throw the tasks out there, like, "We need to update the slideshow"
[19:47] <charlie-tca> We also have some discussions, but generally it is pretty quiet in -devel for us
[19:47] <charlie-tca> but that is the place where things do happen
[19:47] <beardygnome> i guess the big tasks are packaging, documentation and marketing?
[19:47] <charlie-tca> testing and bugs, too.
[19:48] <charlie-tca> without testing, the final product kind of stinks
[19:48] <charlie-tca> I started out just testing the images daily and coming in to #xubuntu-devel to tell what they did that day
[19:49] <beardygnome> so generally you're waiting for people to step up and say "i'll do that", rather than having people whose "job" it is to do them?
[19:49] <charlie-tca> exactly. It is pretty difficult to assign jobs, when people are volunteers and not always available.
[19:50] <beardygnome> well you're doing a good job, as things seem to be running pretty smoithly from my point of view
[19:50] <beardygnome> *smoothly
[19:50] <charlie-tca> If someone is testing on a continuous basis, we will ask them to take the testing lead position.
[19:50] <charlie-tca> but to tell someone they have to test daily is kind of difficult
[19:50] <Sysi> http://doc.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/ is this xubuntu- or doc team's responsibility area?
[19:51] <beardygnome> what does testing lead involve, other than the testing?
[19:51] <charlie-tca> never heard of it
[19:51] <charlie-tca> beardygnome: keeping up the testing pages at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing
[19:51] <charlie-tca> filing bugs for the things that are broken
[19:52] <charlie-tca> Sysi: I don't even know where that comes from...
[19:52] <beardygnome> thanks
[19:53] <charlie-tca> Does all that make any sense?
[19:53] <beardygnome> as a newbie to this, i didn't want to jump in and offer to do loads of stuff as i wasn't sure if that was the right way to go about things
[19:53] <beardygnome> plus, i've been crazy busy at work recently
[19:53] <Sysi> charlie-tca: doc.ubuntu com seems to be leading to ubuntu doc team
[19:53] <charlie-tca> Well, having you go through those docs before was great! That really did help us.
[19:54] <charlie-tca> Sysi: I will ask Daniel then, maybe he knows, or I can track down j1mc about it.
[19:54] <beardygnome> glad to be of service :-)
[19:54] <Sysi> http://doc.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/ln-id303536.html
[19:54] <charlie-tca> The help we get is why I try to let everyone participate in these meetings.
[19:54] <beardygnome> i'll try to drop in to #xubuntu-devel every few days and see if there's anything i can help out with
[19:55] <charlie-tca> Sysi: Then we should talk with Book_Em_Dano about that too, shouldn't we?
[19:55] <Sysi> related to this, as regular irc helper, would i need to join xubuntu-team?
[19:55] <charlie-tca> Thanks, beardygnome
[19:55] <beardygnome> i'm a bit wary of offering to do stuff in case i need loads of help with it or can't get it done for some reason
[19:56] <beardygnome> and people wish they'd done it themselves
[19:56] <Unit193> If I know how, I would help
[19:56] <charlie-tca> I told the the whole team "I am just a user" for over year, helping where I could
[19:56] <charlie-tca> Unit193: Do you know how to review and edit the wiki?
[19:57] <Unit193> charlie-tca: I have never done it
[19:57] <beardygnome> i don't know how to do that
[19:57] <charlie-tca> You could just  open every application and see if it works.
[19:58] <charlie-tca> If you can do an install once a week or so, that would help.
[19:58] <Unit193> Also check for broken links and report them?
[19:58] <charlie-tca> Even in VirtualBox, it gives us more than one person saying something is wrong
[19:58] <charlie-tca> yes, Unit193
[19:58] <charlie-tca> we need to find those
[19:59] <charlie-tca> Read through the help for each application, and see if it makes sense or even exists.
[19:59] <charlie-tca> If you use a language other then English, is help available in that language? Do the menus work?
[20:00] <charlie-tca> When looking at wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu, does the page make sense, or is it outdated for natty?
[20:00] <beardygnome> charlie-tca: how do we edit the wiki if it is wrong?
[20:01] <charlie-tca> click the edit button on the page and make the corrections. Every change is verified, and can be changed back if need be.
[20:02] <beardygnome> thanks for the help charlie-tca
[20:02] <Unit193> beardygnome: Would this help? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnEditing
[20:02] <charlie-tca> I am subscribed to every page having to with Xubuntu
[20:02] <charlie-tca> so, I see every change that is made to those pages
[20:03] <beardygnome> thanks Unit193
[20:03] <charlie-tca> If it bothers you to edit it, just let us know on the mailing list what is wrong, and we will get it fixed.
[20:03] <beardygnome> got to leave now, but will try to drop in to the devel room later.  are most of you on european or us time?
[20:04] <charlie-tca> both
[20:05] <charlie-tca> half of us are USA and half are Europe
[20:05] <beardygnome> so there should be someone around most times then
[20:05] <beardygnome> see you later
[21:32] <Thermi> gn8