=== chuck_ is now known as zul === nicholas_ is now known as t-boxmy === t-boxmy is now known as tboxmy === doko__ is now known as doko === jjohansen is now known as jj-afk === nigelbabu is now known as nigelb === yofel_ is now known as yofel === claudinux is now known as Claudinux === claudinux is now known as Claudinux === Quintasan_ is now known as Quintasan [15:00] shmoo [15:01] * ogra_ twiddles thumbs [15:02] #startmeeting [15:02] GrueMaster, can you poke him ? [15:02] Meeting started at 10:02. The chair is NCommander. [15:02] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [15:02] ah :) [15:02] Had to retrieve my laptop charger from underneath someone [15:02] someone eh ? [15:02] who is she ? [15:03] ogra_: random bodies on the couch [15:03] oh, more than one [15:03] I had a bunch of rain soaked campers show up late last night. [15:03] hahah [15:03] [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/20110324 [15:03] LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/20110324 [15:03] [topic] Action Item Review [15:03] New Topic: Action Item Review [15:04] [topic] ogra to determine if mono still crashes on tegra [15:04] New Topic: ogra to determine if mono still crashes on tegra [15:04] hi [15:05] * NCommander pokes ogra_ [15:05] NCommander, c/o [15:05] ogra_: k [15:05] [topic] Standing Items [15:05] New Topic: Standing Items [15:05] [link] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel.html [15:05] LINK received: http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel.html [15:06] [link] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-ubuntu-11.04-beta-1.html [15:06] LINK received: http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-ubuntu-11.04-beta-1.html [15:06] just moved one WI from edid bp to done, the others will wait until beginning of next week, then if not yet done will move it [15:07] had to spend more time than I wanted with the pvr drivers [15:07] * ogra_ wishes ff4 wouldnt lock his machine all the time [15:08] anything else or can I move one? [15:08] I will have my task completed next week. [15:08] * ogra_ didnt have a chance to look at the tracker yet [15:08] one sec [15:09] ff4 is really unhappy on arm wrt RAM usage [15:09] move, looks fine [15:09] (sorry for delaying) [15:10] NCommander: move! :-) [15:10] * ogra_ will kill the serial tty stuff, wont go into upstart, is better in jasper now [15:10] He's having network issues. [15:10] and the kbd bug will be postponed [15:10] [[to[topic] Unity 2D Status [15:10] GrueMaster, tell the guys on the sofa to move off the network cable then [15:11] [topic] Unity 2D Status [15:11] New Topic: Unity 2D Status [15:11] we have 3.8 since yesterday :) [15:11] closed over 60 bugs [15:11] \o/ [15:11] please test as soon as netbook builds again [15:11] * ogra_ really likes it [15:11] ogra_: can we have changelog messages that are useful to glance at without referencing a lot of LP bugs? kthxbye :-P [15:11] I'll do a dist-upgrade today. [15:12] NCommander, nope [15:12] not if i have to manually add >60 entries myself :P [15:12] ogra_: I few of the others here in pdx were also commenting on that. [15:12] Apparently there is a tool to do this. [15:12] GrueMaster, i'm trying to teach upstream to use dch but they arent there yet [15:13] the list of bugs was necessary for the lp janitor [15:13] else i would have left that one out too like i usually do [15:13] anyway, move [15:13] ogra_: your the maintainer, when I look at changelogs, I expect sometihng useful :-P. [15:13] [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, rsalveti) [15:13] New Topic: Kernel Status (cooloney, rsalveti) [15:14] NCommander, look at the treee then [15:14] Ubuntu-2.6.38-1206.8 just uploaded for omap4 [15:14] will need a rebuild though [15:14] this kernel should have better support for wifi, full hdmi support and SGX compatible [15:14] new gcc was uploaded too ... right afterwards [15:14] ow [15:15] ogra_: after this kernel hits the archive you can remove the cmd arguments for dvi [15:15] rsalveti, yep, on my list [15:15] the question is if images are buildable again *before* the new kernel is there :) [15:16] :-) [15:16] i doubt the kernel has settled before saturday [15:16] probably [15:16] I also updated the SGX kernel module to be compatible with 38, so it should just work now if you install the sgx packages from tiomap-dev/trunk ppa [15:17] btw, given that ppisati does SRUs and the like, he should probably be added to this topic too :) [15:17] after it's properly tested I'll move the sgx stuff to the release ppa, and we can start testing the ti icon again [15:17] in case he has to report anything [15:17] ogra_: yeah, makes sense [15:18] and to give GrueMaster a chance to whine at him for having to test all these old releases ;) [15:18] NCommander: can you also add ppisati to the topic? [15:18] rsalveti, no sgx drivers into restricted/multiverse this cycle? [15:18] I get plenty of whineing in on #ubuntu-kernel. :P [15:18] janimo: not yet, still waiting some more updates from TI (and IMG) [15:18] [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo) [15:18] New Topic: ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo) [15:18] janimo: so not to a point that we'll get just bugixing [15:18] bah [15:18] damn lag [15:19] NCommander: Grrrrrrrrrr [15:19] heh [15:19] he is in linaro now [15:19] That makes it worse. :P [15:19] lag: not you, referring to latency [15:20] anyway [15:20] that linaro has the lag ? [15:20] ANYWAY [15:20] :) [15:20] is mono fixed ? [15:20] I stumbled upon a workaround for mono last night that allows us to disable SMP for it [15:21] ogra_: 2.6.38-1206.7 finished building already, but don't know yet if it's in the archive [15:21] I need to code a patch to make this the default behavior on ARM, but f-spot and banshee appear to work properly [15:21] NCommander, you mean mono to only use one core? [15:21] I tested this on panda last night. It does work, and better than panda running nosmp. [15:21] good news! [15:21] awesome ! [15:21] janimo: yeah, which sidesteps the whole Mono on ARM dies horribly on SMP machines [15:21] I poked upstream . [15:22] it's a good workaround I guess [15:22] awesome [15:22] but they haven't responded with a good way to debug the ARM specific code for SMP safety, and nothing obvious jumps up [15:22] rsalveti, but the SGX stuff is planned for inclusion into the archives just blocked right now? [15:23] NCommander, and the issue is present on 2.10 as well? [15:23] Question: since we have *gasp* a working mono*/gasp*, are we going to change our seeds to now resemble the desktop versions of Ubuntu [15:23] once the mono package is updated I'd say yes [15:23] we will drop RB and pull in banshee [15:24] janimo: yes still screwing around with it, but I'm seeing if theres a way to run mono under valgrind which one would hope find the damn SMP headache [15:24] not sure what other mono apps are in desktop [15:24] f-spot [15:24] ogra_: f-spot + tomboy [15:24] huh ? [15:24] f-spot is gone since maverick [15:24] janimo: I'll try to request the inclusion, once we get what will be the final version for this cycle, but the dev is still going heavily atm [15:24] I thought they brought it back. [15:24] * GrueMaster checks. [15:24] i dont think so [15:25] but i'll compare the seeds if i have to make the changes [15:25] as soon as i get a go for it [15:25] I'll cook up something today or tomorrow and upload [15:25] no hurry [15:25] banshee should be our best test case [15:25] qeueu is so full it will take days anyway [15:25] rsalveti: unfortnately without workign sound on Panda it is a tad difficult to know if it works fully [15:26] NCommander, though dont forget we're frozen [15:26] as f-spot is out for shotwell [15:26] beta-1 freeze kicks in later today [15:26] ogra_: I'll poke the release team [15:26] Just checked x86 manifest. Still shotwell. [15:26] NCommander, aren't there some pulse audio trick to redirect sound to another machine? [15:26] not sure they want to take the risk for other arches [15:26] * NCommander whimpers in fear at janimo's suggestion [15:26] ogra_: its going to be a patch wrapped with #ifdef ARM [15:27] great [15:27] -that should work [15:27] anyway [15:27] moving on [15:27] [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander) [15:27] New Topic: ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander) [15:27] headless is perfect ! [15:27] all our preinstalled images are fully preseedable on cmdline now [15:27] ogra_: cool, I didn't know you found a way to run without your head! [15:27] * NCommander ducks [15:28] (will add preseed file support in OO) [15:28] NCommander, google for stoertebeker ;) we northern gearmans are famouos for running without head [15:28] ogra_: I won't know :-) [15:29] i havent looked at netbook for about two weeks, GrueMaster do you know what happened to the gnome-settings-daemon issue ? [15:29] i havent seen a bug for it and didnt file one either [15:29] It was still there on the 0321 image, but updating fixed it. [15:29] but if it still happens i'd call that a beta blocker [15:29] oh, and our omap3 builder seems to be broken [15:30] i pinged lamont in -release earlier today and also generally pinged in #is but didnt get any answers yet [15:30] Not sure if an update actually fixed it or something shook loose. May still happen on fresh image. [15:30] yeah, we need to check that asap [15:30] Hard w/o a fresh image. [15:30] but with the archive as it is now itr will still take a while until we can build again [15:31] GrueMaster, dont tell me [15:31] working on headless was real fun :) [15:31] nothing holds up rebuilds [15:31] anyway, NCommander move [15:31] [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster) [15:31] New Topic: QA Status (GrueMaster) [15:32] Testing SRU kernels for dove seems to be the highlight of the week. 3 kernels at one time in proposed. [15:32] fun [15:32] Made sure the latest kernel had all of the previous fixes prior to testing. [15:33] Also started looking into some other more obscure bugs that are still open. [15:34] Installed unity-2d-latest on maverick from daily ppa. Works much better so far. [15:34] natty would be more intresting though [15:34] I wish they would add natty to their daily builds. [15:34] since -2d uses bits and pieces that are only in natty [15:35] They keep telling me to retest with daily on maverick when I run into bugs. [15:35] They only build natty daily for x86 I think. [15:36] well, it doesnt help much to test on maverick if the bug is in interaction with other desktop pieces [15:36] Don't tell me. [15:36] indicator, bamf and the dash protocol are completely different [15:36] but we have the latest in natty now [15:37] So, should I pull my own bzr tree and do my own daily builds? I really don't have the resources to do that. [15:37] i also expect development to slow down a bit with the freezes getting colder [15:38] anything else or can I move on? [15:38] move [15:38] [topic] AOB [15:38] New Topic: AOB [15:40] everyone tell Amaranth to hurry up with compiz fixing for GLES :) [15:40] If I could get a working GLES stack somewhere :/ [15:40] yeah, blame mesa :P [15:41] Amaranth, as discussed above, rsalveti has new drivers that will work with the new kernel :) [15:42] NCommander, time to close ? [15:42] #endmeeting [15:42] Meeting finished at 10:42. === jj-afk is now known as jjohansne === jjohansne is now known as jjohansen === Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-afk === Ursinha-afk is now known as Ursinha === Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-lunch [17:00] hola [17:00] oh, dst [17:00] see you in an hour [17:02] morning [17:03] * czajkowski hugs Keybuk [17:05] hmm, either nobody is here for the TB meeting [17:05] or I'm an hour early due to DST [17:05] 17:00 < kees> oh, dst 17:00 < kees> see you in an hour [17:06] gnargh [17:06] * Keybuk updates his calendar [17:54] Keybuk, I added the outstanding items from my TB mailbox onto the agenda [17:57] mdz: thanks [17:58] I will need to leave at :30 unfortunately [17:59] ok, I see you've put your items on first [17:59] I will likely need to keep it shortish too [17:59] are we expecting sabdfl? [17:59] kees: here? [17:59] * pitti is here, FTR [18:00] * Keybuk is trying to find the mootbot documentation [18:00] Keybuk: hash startmeeting [18:00] cjwatson, according to the calendar, no [18:00] it'll print the commands [18:00] #startmeeting [18:00] Meeting started at 13:00. The chair is Keybuk. [18:00] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [18:00] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScribesTeam/MootBot [18:00] good morning everyone ;-) [18:00] [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda [18:00] LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda [18:01] [TOPIC] Action review [18:01] New Topic: Action review [18:01] hey Scott, howdy [18:01] thanks mdz for marking his items as done, likewise cjwatson [18:01] pitti: there's three items assigned to you, can you update us on those? [18:01] pitti's first one is done [18:01] * pitti to kick off brainstorm review [18:01] * pitti to respond to uTouch package set request [18:01] * pitti to add PPU rights for Serge Hallyn per ML [18:01] all done [18:02] great, thanks pitti [18:02] brainstorm> 9/10 sent [18:02] still waiting for Andy's reply about the kernel issue [18:02] what's the tenth? [18:02] but I'm on it [18:02] ah [18:02] Andy is off getting married [18:02] I wouldn't recommend waiting for him [18:02] cjwatson: that woman must be a saint ... [18:02] and kudos for cjwatson for getting in the first response and fix [18:02] cjwatson: ah, thanks [18:02] (wasn't in the holiday cal) [18:02] ogasawara is filling in [18:02] [TOPIC] Proposal to install ubuntu-restricted-* by default (mdz) [18:02] New Topic: Proposal to install ubuntu-restricted-* by default (mdz) [18:03] [LINK] http://launchpad.net/bugs/723831 [18:03] LINK received: http://launchpad.net/bugs/723831 [18:03] Ubuntu bug 723831 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Installer – The option to 'install third-party software' when installing Ubuntu should be selected by default (aka "make Youtube work")" [Wishlist,Incomplete] [18:03] Jono passed this to technical-board@ about 2 weeks ago [18:03] it also came up in my Q&A last week [18:03] the short version is that it proposes ticking the "install third-party software" box by default [18:04] ah, I think this already came up once [18:04] personally, I'm very unhappy about crossing this line by default, even though I understand the reasons offered by the design team [18:04] is this third-party software licenced under open source licences? [18:04] No. [18:04] or is this software non-free [18:04] Keybuk, nope, or we would almost certainly be installing it by default :-) [18:04] TBH I'm not too happy about it, as now it would take an informed decision to get free software (what we actually advertise on the cover) [18:05] I think there's no meaningful difference between installing it by default, and ticking a box which downloads and installs it by default [18:05] then the long version is that it proposes changes our stance from "we only use proprietary code if it's needed to get the hardware working" to "we install every bit of proprietary code we can to make farmville work" [18:05] mdz: agreed [18:05] mdz: agreed [18:05] I do agree to installing wlan drivers, but this is too much for me [18:05] perhaps legally there is a meaningful difference, but in terms of ourselves, there isn't [18:06] I assume that somewhere on our website there is still a page which says that Ubuntu is free software [18:06] and we make a deliberate exception for hardware compatibility only [18:06] and we limit that pretty strictly [18:06] One more question: As bdrung said, can it be split this into two parts - gstreamer-* and non-free packages and then discuss [18:06] Keybuk, yes, I think the legal spectre in that bug is a distraction [18:06] http://www.ubuntu.com/project -> "The Ubuntu Promise [18:06] LINK received: http://www.ubuntu.com/project -> "The Ubuntu Promise [18:06] Ubuntu is free." [18:07] pitti, that's ambiguous though; there is a page which talks about licensing specifically, and the exception [18:07] I share bdrung's opinion to some extent; patent-problematic packages may carry risk (which Canonical would have to evaluate, I expect), but I don't regard them as having the same moral problems [18:07] I can't find anything since it was last reorganized... [18:07] yeah, currently searching for that; but I've seen it as well [18:07] mdz: http://www.canonical.com/about-ubuntu says that "Ubuntu is and always will be absolutely free." [18:07] http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/licensing [18:07] LINK received: http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/licensing [18:07] mdz: *absolutely* [18:07] cjwatson: right, but we've always said that patent-problematic packages *can* go into main or universe [18:07] mdz: I'm just saying :) [18:07] * kees here now, catching up [18:08] and we've never shirked from installing them by default either (cf. ubuntu's font rendering) [18:08] Keybuk: yes; although there is a standing TB decision from years ago saying that libavcodec may not go on CDs [18:08] highvoltage, that "free" is at best ambiguous; i think the page I just linked to clarifies this particular point well though [18:08] from 2007-01-02 [18:08] cjwatson: was there, I thought there was a standing "we need someone legal to make a decision" [18:08] the title of the bug ("make youtube work") implies that it's the non-free bits which are considered important [18:09] Keybuk: well, we can go back and analyse the logs some other time [18:09] cjwatson: indeed [18:10] I think we have a pretty good consensus here, would there be any objection to voting on the issue at hand? [18:10] mdz: right, last paragraph on that page is what I remembered [18:10] for me, this is a line in the sand - I don't really see a point in taking a stance on free software if we're going to give up when it's hard [18:10] and we already have the codec installer for totem, and plugin installer for flash [18:10] which can convey the problem in more words than this single and already overloaded tick box in the installer [18:10] if the question here is whether we consider the Flash plugin to be as vital to the user experience as, say, the ability to use a graphics card or a wifi adapter, then my position is "no" [18:10] I'm more than happy to continue a trend of making it easier for people who have a need [18:11] mdz: agreed; and more to it, we do offer free alternatives in the plugin installer, such as gnash [18:11] yeah, I don't want non-free stuff in by default. that's totally against the principles of ubuntu. [18:11] [VOTE] Proposal to install ubuntu-restricted-* by default [18:11] Please vote on: Proposal to install ubuntu-restricted-* by default. [18:11] Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot [18:11] E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting [18:11] -1 [18:11] -1 received from pitti. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1 [18:11] -1 [18:11] -1 received from cjwatson. 0 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -2 [18:11] -1 [18:11] -1 received from kees. 0 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -3 [18:11] pitti, joeyh pointed out on identi.ca: [18:11] "@mdz regarding making youtube "just work", the 90% solution (but 100% free) is to ship browsers with the html5 beta cookie enabled" [18:11] -1 [18:11] -1 received from Keybuk. 0 for, 4 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -4 [18:11] -1 [18:11] -1 received from mdz. 0 for, 5 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -5 [18:11] "A great day for freedom" [18:11] yes, making youtube just work is "wait until html5 is there" [18:11] [ENDVOTE] [18:11] Final result is 0 for, 5 against. 0 abstained. Total: -5 [18:11] Thank you. [18:11] I feel like we're very close on web video [18:11] popey: +1 :) [18:12] Nicely done. [18:12] and to lessen our resolve now would be counter-productive [18:12] [AGREED] Ubuntu will not enable ubuntu-restricted-* installation by default, and will retain its stance [18:12] AGREED received: Ubuntu will not enable ubuntu-restricted-* installation by default, and will retain its stance [18:12] someone will need to follow up on the bug [18:12] who feels they could be eloquent enough to do that? [18:13] I have no problem responding there [18:13] thanks pitti [18:13] ok [18:13] it's basically closing as wontfix with a friendnly, but clear summary of the discussion here [18:13] [ACTION] pitti to follow-up to bug 723813 [18:13] ACTION received: pitti to follow-up to bug 723813 [18:13] Error: Launchpad bug 723813 could not be found [18:13] Error: Launchpad bug 723813 could not be found [18:13] did it go away that quickly? :-) [18:13] [TOPIC] ubuntu-devel moderation (mdz) [18:13] New Topic: ubuntu-devel moderation (mdz) [18:14] so this is anecdata [18:14] "I'm concerned about moderation delays discouraging upstream/third-party participation" [18:14] but I wanted to bring it up and ask if anyone else had seen a problem [18:14] [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/740065 [18:14] LINK received: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/740065 [18:14] Ubuntu bug 740065 in linux (Ubuntu) "TCP Cookie Transactions (RFC-6013) API updates" [Undecided,New] [18:14] I notice this because I tend to be slow catching up on ubuntu-devel [18:14] * Keybuk must admit, I unsubscribed from ubuntu-devel years ago [18:14] I certainly noticed that maybe two weeks ago I suddenly got a whole load of -devel@ mail dating back to January or so [18:14] and so as I'm working through my mailbox, I notice messages which are old and received no response [18:15] can we address this by giving more people access to moderation? [18:15] and sometimes they haven't actually been sent that long ago [18:15] I usually run listadmin two or three times a week, for -de@, -devel-announce@, techboard [18:15] pitti, maybe, to a degree [18:15] I wondered if cases like this should be handled by the patch pilot? [18:15] and I guess other people do as well [18:15] this is someone who is not directly participating in Ubuntu but has a patch they want to submit [18:16] do we only have one moderator for this ATM? [18:16] I'm sorry - speaking of freedom, nouveau ate itself [18:17] moderators for ubuntu-devel are currently me, Evan Dandrea, and Sarah Hobbs (inactive) [18:17] I think the appropriate resolution to this question is to add at least two or three more [18:17] I agree [18:17] (because that's more sensible than me just being guilty about not running listadmin often enough) [18:17] is there even a correspondence between "people listed as moderators" and "people who have the list moderation password"? [18:18] I believe so ... [18:18] from a governance perspective, I would be quite happy for any Ubuntu developer (who can post unmoderated to the list) to also approve other people's messages [18:18] I run listadmin but very irregularly [18:18] should I take an action to find several more people I trust, then, or do you want something a bit more inclusive than that? [18:19] if there is someplace where we can just publish the password where only developers will be able to see it, that seems like a good idea [18:19] private bzr tree? [18:19] I also think that the patch pilot should scan the mailing list and pick up things like this [18:19] kees, interesting idea [18:19] well, we should at least ensure that moderators know the list policy [18:19] there's a wiki page for that [18:19] yp [18:19] yep [18:20] UbuntuDevelModeration === Ursinha-lunch is now known as Ursinha [18:21] is it worth considering a reminder system or something like that, so that someone notices if the list hasn't been moderated for too long? [18:21] mdz: I'm pretty sure mailman sends those reminders ;-) [18:21] Keybuk, iirc it sends them *every day* so people filter them out [18:21] and I'm pretty sure people do exactly what they do with all such reminders, and /dev/null them [18:21] once a week would probably be sensible [18:22] well, that's part of the disconnect between people listed as moderators and those with the password [18:22] mdz: it might be configurable, we should ask barry [18:22] and only if the list hadn't been moderated for >7 days [18:22] kees, also right [18:22] that would make them more useful indeed [18:22] moderators feel some responsibility (maybe not enough but ...) [18:22] I just grew a habit of running listadmin after my initial morning email catchup [18:22] so I don't know that I think we should just spread it far and wide, because then everyone will think that somebody else will do it [18:22] anyway, if Colin is willing to take an action to follow up on this, I trust his judgement for how to resolve the problem [18:22] I'd rather have a team large enough to keep up but small enough to care [18:22] we don't need to debate it here [18:23] * mdz de-bikesheds [18:23] ok, [18:23] [ACTION] cjwatson to stoke the fires of the ubuntu-devel moderation team [18:23] ACTION received: cjwatson to stoke the fires of the ubuntu-devel moderation team [18:23] cjwatson: ok? :) [18:24] aye-aye [18:24] thanks cjwatson [18:24] [TOPIC] Ownership of package sets\ [18:24] New Topic: Ownership of package sets\ [18:24] [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-March/000744.html [18:24] LINK received: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-March/000744.html [18:25] is that the mail from geser? [18:25]