[09:09]  * abogani waves all
[12:42] <ailo> abogani: Perhaps next kernel will make -realtime less necessary? http://www.mail-archive.com/linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org/msg11801.html
[12:44] <abogani> ailo: Perhaps but I don't think so. The main component still out.
[12:45] <raboof> what's the main component?
[12:50] <abogani> rtmutex
[13:01] <abogani> ailo: we could move forward and use the .39 for our -lowlatency kernel....
[13:01] <abogani> ScottL: ^^^^
[16:14] <abogani> scott-work: ^^^^^^^^
[16:53] <scott-work> abogani:  i have to check the logs, i must have logged in after you (or whomever) typed
[16:59] <macinnisrr> scott-work: you mentioned that it's not important that things be packaged correctly, but I thought I'd let you know that with Dream Studio, I'm using a PPA now, so I've got the packaging thing pretty well under wraps with regards to both creating source packages and building them correctly (as far as easy stuff like themes anyway, I'm having trouble packaging new binary images with cinelerra, but that's a whole othe
[16:59] <macinnisrr> r story. Anyway, I digress, what I'm wondering is: what's the exact process for getting an UbuntuStudio package accepted into the main Ubuntu repos?
[17:04] <scott-work> macinnisrr: to be honest, it's usually easier to get packages into debian first :P
[17:04] <scott-work> but for ubuntu specific we will have to go through REVU
[17:04] <scott-work> !REVU
[17:05] <scott-work> macinnisrr: that's a good link to look at
[17:05] <scott-work> BUT, i think we will not have to do this perhaps
[17:05] <scott-work> since we already have ubuntustudio-general-settings (or whatever hte package is called) we can just update it
[17:05] <scott-work> or ubuntustudio-look
[17:06] <scott-work> this is a much easier process because we are only constrained by what time during the release cycle we are in, because you wouldn't want to do a major update to a apckage right before release candidate (RC)
[17:06] <scott-work> abogani: that sounds good to update the kerenel version for -lowlatency
[17:06]  * scott-work going to lunch now
[17:09] <macinnisrr> scott-work: well, for instance I have some new themes built that I'd like to add to ubuntustudio-theme, but to keep the current one default, so we can get user feedback. How would I do that?
[18:07] <scott-work> macinnisrr: we would probably include them in the package under one of the directories and use the file called "install" which would copy them to the directory on the user's system
[18:08] <macinnisrr> scott-work: absolutely, I'm just wondering how to submit.
[18:08] <scott-work> macinnisrr: the general process to update one of our packages would be thus:
[18:09] <scott-work> the person updating would download the source code...say "apt-get source foo"
[18:09] <scott-work> then make the changes as appropriate
[18:09] <scott-work> test it
[18:09] <scott-work> then in the source directory make a debdiff from the *.dsc files
[18:09] <scott-work> this diff file can then be uploaded to the repository which would update the package
[18:10] <scott-work> the permissions to upload to the repository is available to all
[18:10] <macinnisrr> scott-work: where's the repository?
[18:11] <macinnisrr> REVU?
[18:11] <scott-work> it should all be hosted in launchpad but is readily available from the command lines with the "dput" command
[18:12] <scott-work> macinnisrr: no, REVU is a separate process and I believe it has a different storage that the repositories, but i think things can be moved over easily enough
[18:13] <scott-work> in REVU they review the package to make sure it follows the debian (and ubuntu) packaging guide and i think also makes sure it doesn't have any security vulnerabilities
[18:13] <macinnisrr> scott-work: ok, I see ubuntustudio in Launchpad, but what exactly do i use for the address to dput to?
[18:13] <scott-work> well, dput is used to push the package to the repository (or your own ppa, for example)
[18:13] <scott-work> if you wanted to get the package from ubuntustudio then you use "apt-get source <packagename>"
[18:14] <scott-work> less quotes
[18:14] <scott-work> also you can update packages using bzr, but this just affects the package as stored in launchpad and doesn't exactly touch package in the repositories
[18:15] <scott-work> i'm not exactly clear how this exactly stands from a technical standpoint, only from a layman perspective of seeing it done
[18:15] <scott-work> there have been cases where changes/updates were pushed to bzr for ubuntustudio-menu but they didn't make it to the repository
[18:16] <scott-work> it was during another update that I did that i noticed they hadn't been done yet, so i moderated my changelog file to include those changes
[18:16] <macinnisrr> scott-work: I understand packaging, source and dput (but thanks for being verbose - I sure could have used these instructions 3 months ago :-)). I'm just looking for where to send the package. With my ppa I use dput ppa:dreamstudio/audio-testing <source.changes>. what do i enter instead of ppa:dreamstudio/audio-testing.
[18:16] <macinnisrr> haha. I didn't even think about the implication of a colon followed by a "d"
[18:17] <scott-work> macinnisrr:  i don't have rights to upload to the repositories yet, i've kinda been putting off submitting for them
[18:18] <macinnisrr> scott-work: aha. Is it quite a process?
[18:18] <scott-work> so what i've been doing is filing a bug, attaching the diff to the bug, and asking TheMuso or persia to upload them for me
[18:18] <scott-work> macinnisrr: not really, but it's just _another_ thing to do
[18:19] <scott-work> but, i've got to fill out the form, wait for a meeting, then if approved learn how to upload, which repositories i have rights to or which packages, etc, etc,
[18:19] <macinnisrr> scott-work: Could I get those rights (for the purpose of updating theme packages, wallpaper, plymouth splash -which incidentally doesn't work in natty as it is currently, etc.)?
[18:19] <scott-work> i can always go to someone on #ubuntu-motu and get help
[18:20] <scott-work> macinnisrr: possibly, but i think they prefer to have someone work with a "mentor" (my choice of words), someone from #ubuntu-motu who can vouch for the person, first to develop good work practices and determine if they are not doing anythign studpid habitually
[18:21] <scott-work> well, stupid or dangerous i suppose
[18:22] <scott-work> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/ApplicationProcess
[18:22] <scott-work> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers
[18:22] <scott-work> these links have information about the process and the application, if you are interested
[18:22] <macinnisrr> scott-work: right, I had seen something mentioned about that. Well, it's understandable really with a project as large as Ubuntu. I'll maybe get on #ubuntu-motu and find someone there to work with. And thanks for the links, I'll check them out right now
[18:23] <scott-work> macinnisrr: i shoud probably get more onto #ubuntu-motu and develop relationships there rather than rely on TheMuso and persia as i do, but again, it's just *another* _something_ to do :P
[18:24] <scott-work> and they all seem to take more time than i expect ;)
[18:25] <macinnisrr> scott-work: by the way, I found your proposed ubuntustudio logo designs while surfing the web, and really liked them. I've come up with a couple variations, and they look great. Will post in a sec once I've uploaded them.
[18:26] <scott-work> super cool :)
[18:26] <scott-work> i'm not much of a graphic artists, but i do come up with ideas every now and then...i'm just glad someone with ability is taking inspiration from them :)
[18:46] <macinnisrr> scott-work: https://picasaweb.google.com/macinnisrr/UbuntuStudio?feat=directlink - you'll find new screenshots from the updated theme, new icons, and the aforementioned logo. I've also completed the login screen and plymouth-theme, but I'll need to boot a VM to take screenshots of those.
[18:47] <macinnisrr> Once I have those two screenshots, I'm planning on making an UbuntStudio Design blog, and I'll post the entire rational, guidelines, and shots of all these screens for the public.
[18:53] <scott-work> macinnisrr: those look good, this one is still one of my favorites - https://picasaweb.google.com/macinnisrr/UbuntuStudio?feat=directlink#5587719364524194658
[18:54] <scott-work> i like this one as well https://picasaweb.google.com/macinnisrr/UbuntuStudio?feat=directlink&fgl=true&pli=1#5584001014291760322
[18:54] <scott-work> but i'm wondering if we could make the background colors for the ubttons (close, min, max) not use the orange color
[18:54] <scott-work> hold on, i'll find a link
[18:55] <scott-work> http://ubuntu-art.org/content/preview.php?preview=3&id=132875&file1=132875-1.PNG&file2=132875-2.jpg&file3=132875-3.jpg&name=Ambiance+dark
[18:56] <scott-work> i like how they use dark grey and light grey for the buttons, like on the rhythmbox window, instead of using organ
[18:56] <scott-work> orange
[18:56] <scott-work> not dictating we do this, just asking what you think about it
[18:59] <macinnisrr> scott-work: the first one you linked was the most similar to the current ubuntustudio, which is exactly why I did it that way. The second link is an older screen, I've since made all the themes monochromatic, and I'm planning on doing the same with the metacity, exactly like the screenshot you posted. I had initially used the orange-ish buttons because unity (which I'm currently testing) had orange buttons when maxi
[18:59] <macinnisrr> mized, and it didn't look very fluid to have them different. Since that time, unity now respects your theme, so I've gone with monochrome window buttons, but you'll notice they're different than the current ones - https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/KczhsSHpraaEO-BFwVGVtg?feat=directlink. These match the buttons you'll see when maximizing a window in unity. Above all, I think interface consistency is the main goal
[18:59] <macinnisrr> , with a secondary goal being that the UI is a monochrome as possible (with colorful icons where needed). Most graphic designers I would think would want a monochrome UI, so that they're not overcompensating for certain tones (like orange).
[19:00] <macinnisrr> at least that's what's logical. Also, a monochrome theme looks great no matter what wallpaper you're using, which I think is important, as that's often the only tweaking end users make to the look.
[19:02] <scott-work> sounds good as well as your idea about a blog, i imagine lots of people would like to read about what's going on and what's going on behind it
[19:05] <macinnisrr> scott-work: yeah, I figure with something like default artwork, there are going to be people liking and disliking any decision made, as it's all personal preference, so being able to explain why certain decisions are being made allows for better collaboration and costructive criticism.
[19:08] <scott-work> i think many people will be interested in seeing what is going on before it gets released but i think many will equally be impressed by providing the logic and reasoning behind it as well
[19:09] <scott-work> that might also prevent some criticism possibly
[19:25] <macinnisrr> scott-work: for sure. Sorry I was gone there for a while - doing the dishes and talking with my wife (who's out of town).
[19:26] <scott-work> dont' worry about being gone, i do the same at home with the kids and wife :)
[19:36] <holstein> hehe, i think we should take the web browser out of ubuntustudio be default ;)
[19:36] <holstein> anything that doesnt have JACK support out of the box
[19:37]  * holstein half-way kidding
[19:43] <macinnisrr> holstein: :) us graphic designers need to be able to surf google images for pictures to steal.
[19:43] <holstein> macinnisrr: apt-get install ubuntu-desktop ;)
[19:46] <macinnisrr> say, I was wondering about the possibility of a livedvd. For Dream Studio I use Ubuntu Customization Kit, which allows me to just edit an ubuntu livecd. It's really easy to do this way, but I understand that's not possible for UbuntuStudio. Could we, however, build an UbuntuStudio DVD that way and host it on the main site?
[19:48] <scott-work> macinnisrr: there has been some serious talk lately about livecd
[19:48] <holstein> macinnisrr: i have a bug report...
[19:48] <macinnisrr> holstein: what about?
[19:48] <holstein> yeah, we were talking about *maybe* 12.04
[19:48] <scott-work> we could make a community supported one, build it with UCK or remastersys or whatever, and host it somewhere
[19:48] <macinnisrr> scott-work: yeah, that would be great.
[19:48] <scott-work> but we've also discussed making our dvd iso as a livedvd
[19:49] <scott-work> but there are two supporting considerations to those
[19:49] <holstein> macinnisrr: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+bug/695892
[19:49] <scott-work> if we create a live dvd then we need to do that work manually and host it ourselves somewhere
[19:49] <scott-work> we have to be extremely clear that this isn't support by canonical and probably shouldn't report bugs in launchpad about the livedvd (perhaps)
[19:50] <scott-work> but going the other way
[19:50] <macinnisrr> scott-work: I'm assuming Ubuntu uses the same build process as us, so it couldn't be that hard. I'm sure it's just a matter of adding ubiquity (and all its depends) to the dvd...
[19:50] <scott-work> right, exactly, but
[19:50] <scott-work> ...
[19:50] <scott-work> this would change our installation process quite a bit, holstein has talked with a few people about htis and has more insight
[19:51] <holstein> yeah, cjwatson said it wasnt really all that easy
[19:51] <holstein> but totally do-able
[19:51] <holstein> its not something we would want to waffle on
[19:51] <scott-work> it would be much more work for us to set up and would require quite a bit of learning for a few people to work out
[19:51] <holstein> and there are lots of good reasons why we dont have a live CD
[19:51] <scott-work> although persia did say we could go with the graphical isntaller without having to add ubiquity and the live aspect
[19:51] <holstein> macinnisrr: we lose task-selection
[19:51] <macinnisrr> holstein: hmmm... What are the cons of a livecd?
[19:51] <macinnisrr> holstein: ah.
[19:51] <holstein> which, for me, hasnt worked right since karmic or so
[19:52] <holstein> so, i say, let it go
[19:52] <holstein> BUT
[19:52] <holstein> i totally see the need
[19:52] <scott-work> holstein:  i talked to ginger coons of libre graphics manazine and said she often gives out thumb drives with distros on it but can't do that with ubuntu studio because it's not a live media
[19:52] <holstein> scott-work: yeah
[19:52] <holstein> ive said it before
[19:53] <scott-work> so there is emprical, hard data that people would actually use it and we oculd possibly get new users from it
[19:53] <holstein> we are the only non-live multimedia distro without a proper kernel ;)
[19:53] <macinnisrr> holstein: I can't remember which derivative it was, but I saw a post somewhere about a livecd based on ubuntu that had a customized ubiquity that allowed package selection, let me look it up and see if I can find...
[19:53] <holstein> *for now 
[19:53] <holstein> macinnisrr: that would be handy
[19:53] <scott-work> holstein: macinnisrr: tasksel might not be that hard of a criteria
[19:54] <scott-work> with the new package selection it really doesn't impact as much as before by having 2k applications installed
[19:54] <macinnisrr> scott-work:, holstein: It's edubuntu - http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_1QSDkzYY2vc/TWTz8PLm-fI/AAAAAAAADGQ/EkK_ykySz_4/edubuntu-ubiquity-packages.png
[19:54] <scott-work> AND if we update the menu to move some audio stuff into more sub-menus that would releive the other concern
[19:54] <holstein> also
[19:54] <holstein> i didnt even know what those were
[19:54] <holstein> for several releases
[19:54] <holstein> its not clear
[19:55] <holstein> especially if you are used to live installers
[19:55] <holstein> tabbing down there
[19:55] <holstein> and hitting the space bar
[19:55] <holstein> i mean, i get it*
[19:55] <holstein> BUT
[19:55] <holstein> i would often
[19:55] <scott-work> macinnisrr: yeah, i saw that somewhere too and forgot about it, oh yeah, it was on planet ubuntu i think is where i saw it
[19:55] <holstein> as a newb
[19:55] <holstein> hit enter by mistake
[19:55] <holstein> and then, i didnt know what i was missing
[19:55] <holstein> SO, i would sometimes just reinstall
[19:56] <holstein> thinking i missed something that i could install otherwise
[19:56] <holstein> this was in my pre-IRC days
[19:57] <scott-work> macinnisrr: but ultimately we need peopel to commit to developing a live dvd within the ubuntu studio team before we can seriously consider moving in that direction
[19:58] <scott-work> i'm active, holstein is active, ailo is active, abogani is active with kernel work....themuso and persia are active on a as-needed basis for short term, direct fixes
[19:58] <scott-work> paultag has recently been awesomely involved
[19:58] <scott-work> but that still isn't many people :(
[19:59] <holstein> maybe thats something i could handle
[19:59] <scott-work> but i think having a livedvd would absolutely rock for getting people to try ubuntu studio and developing new users
[19:59] <holstein> scott-work: i do want something technical to take on
[19:59] <scott-work> i would love to be able to tell ginger coons that ubuntu studio now has a livedvd and that she should be able to give them out when she does talks and presentations
[19:59] <holstein> just not sure what i can handly
[20:00] <scott-work> holstein: if you want to work on this i'm sure you wouldn't do it completely alone, i'd be available as often as possible to help
[20:00] <scott-work> i just can't focus only on that though :P
[20:00] <holstein> well, im not giving up on backporting
[20:00] <holstein> and the menu
[20:01] <holstein> i just got overwhelmed for a bit with work
[20:01] <holstein> which is great
[20:01] <holstein> i needed the bread
[20:04] <macinnisrr> scott-work: Honestly, building a livedvd with UCK takes about 10 minutes actual work, and then 2 hours of waiting (on my machine) for packages to install, and subsequently building the cd/dvd, and finally an overnight upload. I'd be happy to do this work on release day, as I currently do with Dream Studio.
[20:05] <holstein> macinnisrr: what did you build with?
[20:05] <holstein> 10.04?
[20:06] <holstein> i made a bunch of coasters with UCK
[20:06] <holstein> trying to get it to use a -realtime kernel
[20:06] <macinnisrr> 10.04, and 10.10 (and previously 9.10, but that was only in-house).
[20:06] <macinnisrr> holstein: you've got to make sure to copy the kernel and initramfs to the cd image itself (outside of chroot)
[20:07] <macinnisrr> otherwise you end up with coasters ;)
[20:07] <holstein> macinnisrr: yeah, and i know in theory what most of those words mean
[20:07] <scott-work> maybe we can build a livedvd as a "community" project and release it separately from the official release
[20:07] <scott-work> this may push us to really work on an official livedvd then
[20:07] <scott-work> if the demand is there :)
[20:10] <macinnisrr> holstein: well, UCK is just a suite of scripts that do the following: 1)unpack the cd 2)unpack the livecd filesystem (squashfs) 3)chroot (change the root filesystem to the squashfs extract for editing) 4)edit the chroot 5)repack squashfs 6)repack the cd. If you change kernels, you've got to copy the kernel and initramfs from /boot on the chroot (I hope that makes sense) into the boot directory of the cd before step 
[20:10] <macinnisrr> 5, otherwise the stock kernel will be looking for drivers that no longer exist.
[20:11] <holstein> macinnisrr: thats is totally waht i was missing
[20:11] <macinnisrr> holstein: I found all this out the hard way.
[20:11] <holstein> and i tried a couple times
[20:11] <holstein> to do what i thought would fix it
[20:11] <holstein> then, i decided i need to do it all by hand
[20:11] <holstein> it got over my head pretty quick and i gave up
[20:12] <macinnisrr> holstein: yeah, the kernel used by the livecd is outside the squashfs (the livecd's filesystem). it starts to boot with that kernel, using the matching initramfs on the cd, then switches to a different root (squashfs).
[20:13] <macinnisrr> holstein: they had to do it this way in order to compress the root filesystem. Otherwise, the install cd/dvd would be way bigger.
[20:14] <macinnisrr> scott-work: I'll go ahead and build one for consideration when this release is ready, and host it on my site for people to test.
[20:16] <scott-work> holstein: another vector to build an iso would be to get your system like you like it and use remastersys
[20:16] <scott-work> which can make a livedvd
[20:16] <scott-work> i did that for a friend to try to get him into it
[20:17] <holstein> will remastersys do the kernel?
[20:17] <holstein> preserve the kernel?
[20:17] <scott-work> it should, it's making a clone of the state of your current setup
[20:18] <scott-work> i made a copy of ubuntu studio with misfits (the band) wallpaper and crap loads of misfits songs on it for him...called is misbuntu
[20:18] <holstein> hehe :)
[20:18] <macinnisrr> scott-work: you mean the punk band or Jem and the Holograms' nemesis?
[20:18] <macinnisrr> ;)
[20:19] <scott-work> hmmm, i don't know about Jam and the Holograms
[20:19] <scott-work> .g Jem and the Holograms
[20:19] <scott-work> doh, thelonious isn't in this channel :/
[20:19] <macinnisrr> scott-work: 80's cartoon for girls. Like barbie with guitars.
[20:19] <scott-work> oh, holstein is your internets back up, is thelonious back in #opensourcemusicians
[20:19] <scott-work> macinnisrr: ah, like josie and the pussycats?
[20:20] <macinnisrr> scott-work: exactly.
[20:20] <scott-work> macinnisrr: something else i thought about was making an introductory video for ubuntu studio...having screen shots and actual footage of ardour/jack/whatever in action while voice over about ubuntu studio features
[20:21] <holstein> scott-work: yeah, it was down for like 4 hours or so
[20:21] <scott-work> like..."with ardour you can have infite number of track.  it also includes fader automation for faders and panning.  Additionally there are hundreds of plugins to alter your sound..."
[20:21] <macinnisrr> scott-work: I was actually planning on making a whole series for the next LTS.
[20:22] <scott-work> " with the jack sound server you can route audio from any jack-aware application to another."
[20:22] <scott-work> i thought that a great introductory video just highlighting features would be a great addition for the website to help people who don't understand what ubuntu studio understand what it is :P
[20:23] <scott-work> for tempting new users to be new users
[20:23] <macinnisrr> scott-work: I'm currently documenting the making of my next album, including the making of the audio, graphics, and videos...
[20:23] <macinnisrr> scott-work: I'll be making the project files available as well.
[20:24] <macinnisrr> scott-work: do we have any idea how many hits the install dvd gets?
[20:26] <scott-work> ooohhh, that's a cool idea
[20:26] <scott-work> macinnisrr: i don't know how many hits the dvd gets
[20:27] <scott-work> i've seen a link before that showed it doubling almost every year, but someone else said that it might not be accurate for some reason that i can't remember
[20:27] <scott-work> pluse this doesn't account for the torrent hits
[20:28] <macinnisrr> hmm..201 hits/day on distrowatch anyway. Way more than Dream Studio ;)
[20:52] <scott-work> i'm excited about all the improvement talk
[20:53] <scott-work> holstein: we should probably schedule another meeting soon so we can devise a good short term plan :)
[20:53] <holstein> scott-work: sure
[21:05] <macinnisrr> well, I've gotta go give a guitar/vocal lesson.
[21:05] <macinnisrr> peace out.