[01:37] <ScottL> mi macinnisrr 
[01:37] <ScottL> how are you?
[01:38] <macinnisrr> Good! You?
[01:39] <ScottL> doing good
[01:40] <ScottL> macinnisrr, do you feel okay with me directing people to you to work on art?  do you feel okay working with them, organizing with them, and directing them?
[01:41] <ScottL> if not i can work with you and them more and help organize and give it direction
[01:52] <ScottL> macinnisrr, you there?  should we go private?
[01:57] <macinnisrr> we can if you think we have to, why what's up. Sorry it's taken so long to respond. I was chatting with an old friend. We're done now, you have my full attention (besides townes van zandt in the background.
[02:02] <macinnisrr> ScottL: sorry, I didn't notice your previous message at first. Yeah, I'm totally comfortable running the Art team. Like I mentioned, I'll be starting a blog right away, and hopefully during the next release cycle, we can get Dream Studio and Ubuntu Studio synced as much as possible (and also KXStudio, allthough I believe FalkTX is no longer planning on hosting a distribution). Anyway, I'm a big fan of team efforts, 
[02:02] <macinnisrr> and want to include the "community" as much as possible in all decisions. Ultimately, two heads are better than one!
[02:05] <ScottL> macinnisrr, that's cool :)  i've just been dumping people on your doorstep and wanted to make sure it was good :P
[02:05] <ScottL> probably should have talked to you before i started doing it, i admit ;)
[02:07] <macinnisrr> ScottL: no, totally cool! I've done very little advertising for any of my work, and really appreciate the extra views I'm getting as part of being on the UbuntuStudio team!!
[02:10] <macinnisrr> ScottL: I've been rethinking Dream Studio recently as a clone of UbuntuStudio with perhaps some pay-software demos (like AVLinux, but Ubuntu compatible). And as we work together and ultimately achieve a unity of sorts, That's where I see things going. What are your 5 favorite and 5 least favorite things about UbuntStudio?
[02:11] <macinnisrr> of course I mean UbuntuStudio
[02:41] <ScottL> macinnisrr, sorry was upstairs with the kids
[02:41] <macinnisrr> totally cool.
[02:41] <ScottL> hmmmm, 5 favorite and 5 least favorite
[02:41] <ScottL> macinnisrr, we got a cool email back from ricardo lafuente :)
[02:42] <ScottL> he brought up something we hadn't really done well in a while, keep a repository of artwork
[02:42] <ScottL> we dont' really have a current one...but we could restart it on wiki.ubuntu.com
[02:42] <ScottL> macinnisrr, i can do my 5 least favorite easier right now:
[02:43] <ScottL> (not in order necessarily)
[02:43] <ScottL> 1. i don't like not having a better kernel
[02:43] <ScottL> 2. ubuntustudio-controls doesn't work or doesn't control enough
[02:43] <ScottL> 3. artwork and theme hasn't been updated in years
[02:44] <ScottL> 4. i wish we could include several of the applications that cannot be packaged in ubuntu
[02:44] <ScottL> 5. i would like for it to have better documentation
[02:45] <ScottL> (bonus) 6. website is looking old and hasn't been updated in years as well
[02:45] <ScottL>  
[02:45] <ScottL> 5 favorite
[02:45] <ScottL> 1. it's free, open source software
[02:46] <ScottL> 2. even people with older computers (think p4, 2.3 ghz, 2 gigs ram) can run a very capable home studio
[02:46] <ScottL> 3. jack and ardour absolutely rock, but i'm really getting into the synthesizer and sequencers are awesome as well!
[02:46] <ScottL> 4. there are lots of people who want to help with ubuntu studio :)
[02:47] <ScottL> 5. it has name recognition and branding
[02:49] <ScottL> i suppose though if i had a magic wand i would also make the interaction between pulse and jack better or more automagical
[02:49] <ScottL> i would also like the networking (specifically wifi) work better 
[02:49] <macinnisrr> ScottL: I had gotten his email, though I hadn't singled out his idea of a repository for art (good idea). In answer to the rest: 1) generic kernel is awesome now, realtime is only slightly better 2) absolutely agreed, and should be renamed. The idea of UbuntuStudio as a distribution is much bigger than what we "control" in ubuntustudio controls. 3) yes. Was only really ever done once, with a wallpapers update 4) Lik
[02:50] <macinnisrr> e what? 5) This is the reason I want our UI to match Ubuntu's (at least in black and white), as Ubuntu has a huge user base and more support for the UbuntuManual. 6) Yeah, but we need a new UI (that matches the new Ubuntu design principles) first. As far as the "PROS", I agree on all counts. I think we can address all the issues you talk about without sacrificing any of the benefits, with very little effort. Pulse -
[02:50] <macinnisrr> >JACK already works on both Dream Studio (multiuser) and KXStudio (single user). What's your issue with WIfi?
[02:51] <macinnisrr> our issue with pulse->JACK is easy. just replace "/usr/bin/jackd" with a script that shuts down pulseaudio, starts jack, and restarts pulseaudio with the proper config.
[02:55] <ScottL> macinnisrr, yes, i have gotten amazing results on the -generic kernel as well, but i was getting even crazier results with the -lowlatency kernel
[02:56] <ScottL> but the main thing is trying to get a way so that firewire users can adjust irq conflicts
[02:56] <ScottL> currently the only way is with the -rt kernel i believe, but some new work with the -generic may be providing that functionality as well
[02:56] <ScottL> i'll defer to abogani's opinion as he's the resident kernel expert
[02:58] <ScottL> as for what i would like to include, some things like vst's would be nice, some of the linux dsp stuff, perhaps renoise, or supercollider
[02:58] <ScottL> some of that i suppose i want because we don't currently have it :P
[02:59] <macinnisrr> ScottL: thanks to ubuntu's software center's policy of allowing paid-for apps, we do have a way to include all of the above.
[03:00] <macinnisrr> ScottL: what are the firewire IRQ issues?
[03:00] <ScottL> i hadn't thought about that....hmmm, but i'm not sure that those could be included on the ISO though, but at least they would be available for download which is a good second place :)
[03:02] <macinnisrr> ScottL: I was, for instance, planning on hosting session files that included only free plugins, but also others that used linuxDSP plugins, and as such, required licenses to avoid the sonic dropout every minute...
[03:03] <ScottL> as for the irq conflicts, i'm not really knowledgable like others but sometimes a network card or other item might share an irq with the firewire device
[03:03] <ScottL> and the result is getting xruns or dropouts because the computer decides that moving the mouse or whatever is more important :P
[03:04] <ScottL> running the irq script sets the audio interface higher to avoid the xrun
[03:05] <ScottL> ailo or rlamerio could explain it better
[03:05] <ScottL> the network issues seem to come from people who are using wifi only directly after a fresh install
[03:06] <ScottL> we thought originally part of the problem was using gnome-network-admin, which isn't exactly a dynamic application as it doesn't really search out wifi, although you can set it if you know all the submask, etc
[03:07] <ScottL> i've been told we had avoided network-manager because it IS dynamic and places a load on the computer at indiscreet times and caused enough xruns to warrant deciding to use gnome-network-admin in lieu of network-manager
[03:08] <ScottL> we just recently went back to network-manager in hopes of helping users with their wifi
[03:08] <ScottL> but we've also been trying to warn people to be aware of any issues caused by network-manager and report them to us
[03:09] <ScottL> the short term answer was to include network-manager on the disc and have people install it manually after installation, which really isn't a "it works out of the box" situation obviously
[03:12] <ScottL> macinnisrr, the jack-pulse works okay, we had been using a script as well to pause pulse audio when qjackctl was started
[03:13] <ScottL> i would like to see the jack-pulse bridge become more stable, it would be really nice to be able to route audio from either into the other
[03:30] <ScottL> macinnisrr, i forgot to mention that currently we are using dbus to have pulse and jack integrate (not interface)
[03:31] <ScottL> if you are using two audio interfaces (say, onboard and a delta44)  you can continue to use pulse through one while jack is serving audio via the second one
[03:31] <ScottL> what i would like to eventually move towards is being able to use the same device to concurrently serve audio from both pulse and jack
[03:32] <ScottL> i realize that's not really a "studio" requirement necessarily, but i think users want this
[03:32] <ScottL> but this requires work from others outside of the studio team
[03:34] <macinnisrr> ScottL: I think the IRQ issue you're speaking of is really an issue of pcilatency, which can be set by a script (and which is my new most important issue that should be added to UbuntuStudio-Controls). I don't currently have enough knowledge to contribute that hack, but I understand how it would work. The idea of using one interface with JACK while another uses pulse is basic to the operation of pulse (and JACK), as
[03:34] <macinnisrr>  they both use ALSA as the driver layer. However, both Dream Studio and KXStudio route pulseaudio through JACK when it's running, and through ALSA when JACK is not running, thereby making the sound server of relative unimportance to the end user.
[03:36] <macinnisrr> JACK users get lowlatency audio (like ASIO in PC or MAC), but regular users (for browsing, rhythmbox, etc...) just get the expected usage no matter what...
[04:04] <ScottL> macinnisrr, i'm not sure it's pcilatency:  here's the package with some more explanation:  http://packages.ubuntu.com/natty/rtirq-init
[04:05] <ScottL> i think this is a better explanation:  http://packages.ubuntu.com/natty/rtirq-init
[10:24] <ailo> I haven't tried the jack-pulse. At least we should add it as an option, I think. Whether it should be used as default or not, we can decide later
[10:46] <ailo> ScottL, macinnisrr: I was meaning to add that to my version of the -controls.
[10:52] <ailo> ScottL, I won't have a lot of time to work on things during this month. As soon as I have time over I would like to work on Documentation, and later a new version of the -controls. I will have time to edit the original -controls for Lucid, though, which is not a big deal. Should we make a patch for it? How is that done? Another thing I've never done before.
[12:00] <ScottL> ailo, when yu are ready i would like to talk about ducumentation, perhaps we can start out with outlining what we think needs to be done
[12:02] <ScottL> if we can outline and define what we think needs to be done i think it will help us be more efficient, plus it may encourage others to help as well...kinda like defining an API
[12:08] <ailo> ScottL, Sure. How about a quick-guide, followed by Ubuntu Studio specific reference, and then Multimedia reference (+ loads of links to manuals)
[13:46] <scott-work> ailo: i just caught you last message on the logs
[13:46] <scott-work> i was also thinking that a small section at the beginning would be helpful that quickly discusses making sure the computer is set up correctly for studio work
[13:47] <scott-work> just a check list almost that would include possibly:
[13:47] <scott-work> is the user in the audio group (if necessary going forward)
[13:47] <scott-work> if firewire interface is used, checking for irq conflicts
[13:48] <scott-work> are -rt priveleges setup for jackd
[13:48] <scott-work> again, i think some of these are important because i believe many people "upgrade" from vanilla ubuntu to "studio"
[14:23] <ailo> scott-work, A checklist is a good idea. 
[14:46] <scott-work> we could go into some explanation why it's important and how those items effect the process
[14:46] <scott-work> but i wouldn't spend too much time on those items...perhaps a link to another page where it goes into depth about changing the settings
[15:03] <scott-work> ailo: can you and i work together today to create a rough outline for updating the documentation?
[15:04] <scott-work> ailo: weeks ago in a pm you had laid out three areas (i think) that you defintely felt we should make improvements
[15:55] <scott-work> ailo: what time zone are you in?  you always seem to be on IRC
[22:28] <TheMuso> scott-work_: FYI bug 745549. YOu may want to let them know that you either do or do not want to use indicators in studio...
[22:30] <scott-work_> TheMuso: is there a reason why we would not want to use indicators?
[22:31] <scott-work_> ailo and i had been thinking about adding the network indicator
[22:31] <TheMuso> scott-work_: Not that I can think of, its just that studio hasn't used them because changing the panel layout is not exactly easy...
[22:32] <scott-work_> heh, that is very, very true apparently :P
[22:32] <TheMuso> And the panel layout has remained rather static over the last few years, even when indicators came about.
[22:32] <TheMuso> The issue is that if you add them, you risk breaking UI freeze, but I am not sure if studio is bound by that.
[22:33] <scott-work_> maybe we should wait until ocelot to worry about adding indicators, not so much because of the freeze but because of the complicated nature of our panel layout :/
[22:33] <TheMuso> Yeah.
[22:33] <TheMuso> But its up to you.
[22:39] <scott-work_> TheMuso:  i think we should wait.  do i need to reply to the bug?  i didn't see anyone threatening to add indicators to studio
[22:39] <holstein> the nm-applet will be running right?
[22:40] <TheMuso> It should be running.
[22:40] <scott-work_> holstein: i'm not sure the nm-applet will be in the panel at this point because of how we have the panels defined, but i could be wrong
[22:40] <TheMuso> scott-work_: Probably best to keep an eye on it, no need to reply I don't think.
[22:41] <TheMuso> Let me check the panel layout.
[22:41] <scott-work_> TheMuso: okay, i saw the linked bug as well, didn't know if you were refering to something in it
[22:41] <holstein> i can appriciate the work that has gone into the new indicators
[22:41] <holstein> but, i dont like the way they are grouped
[22:42] <holstein> its quite a little tweak to get volume controls without the mail notification
[22:42] <holstein> anyways... i dont think we need anything other than the nm-applet in there really
[22:42] <holstein> i like how sparse the panel is/was
[22:42] <TheMuso> holstein: Its not hard to leave indicators out.
[22:43] <TheMuso> But yes the normal nm systray icon should appear as things stand.
[22:43] <holstein> TheMuso: i like that then
[22:43] <TheMuso> I.e you can only ship indicator-sound and indicator-session if you so wish.
[22:43] <holstein> IF its not breaking anything that is
[22:43] <TheMuso> No its not
[22:43] <holstein> cool
[22:44] <TheMuso> So for studio, you may only want the network indicator, sound, date/time, and session.
[22:44] <TheMuso> Although architecturally, the network indicator gets displayed differently to the above mentioned indicators.
[22:44] <TheMuso> But I'll only go into details if people are really interested.
[22:47] <scott-work_> TheMuso: i'm interested
[22:47]  * scott-work_ nods head sincerely
[22:47] <TheMuso> Ok.
[22:48] <TheMuso> The indicator framework is made up by 2 kinds of indicators. System indicators, and application indicators.
[22:48] <TheMuso> System indicators are indicators that are meant to always be present, so the session indicator, sound, date/time, messages.
[22:48] <TheMuso> And the menu indicator is also a system indicator.
[22:49] <TheMuso> Application indicators are tohse that are only showed for particular reasons, so bluetooth, and network being the obvious 2.
[22:49] <TheMuso> The thing is that the application indicators are managed by a system indicator called indicator-application.
[22:49] <TheMuso> So its not really possible to say I want one application indicator, and not the other.
[22:50] <holstein> I C
[22:50] <TheMuso> You either have application indicators, such that all apps that support the indicator framework will display one, or you have none.
[22:50] <scott-work_> hm, i wonder how that will affect what ailo had considered for the -controls update
[22:51] <TheMuso> What did he consider?
[22:51] <holstein> i think paultag is aware of all that though
[22:51] <holstein> and got him hip to it
[22:51] <scott-work_> he wanted an icon in the system tray like the network where you could click it and be able to pick options
[22:52] <TheMuso> You can do that with indicators.
[22:52] <scott-work_> yes, but that means if we enable it for -controls then *all* apps that support it will start showing idicators as well, right?
[22:52] <scott-work_> but i wonder how many apps we ship use the indicator fremwork
[22:53] <TheMuso> scott-work_: There is not that many.
[22:53] <TheMuso> luke@strigy:~$ apt-cache rdepends libappindicator1
[22:53] <TheMuso> libappindicator1
[22:53] <TheMuso> Reverse Depends: synapse linuxdcpp epiphany-browser ejecter deja-dup clipit vino transmission-gtk python-appindicator policykit-1-gnome network-manager-gnome nautilus libbrasero-media1 libappindicator0.1-cil libappindicator-dev gnome-settings-daemon gnome-power-manager gnome-control-center gnome-bluetooth gir1.2-appindicator-0.1
[22:53] <TheMuso> And a lot of those are development related.
[22:54] <TheMuso> And you would not be using a lot of those.
[22:54] <TheMuso> So gnome-power-manager for power/battery, the various indicators from gnome-control-centre, nautilus, brasero, bluetooth.
[22:56] <TheMuso> And whats more, if you ever choose to use unity, you will have to use indicators.
[23:11] <scott-work_> i admit to not being partial to unity
[23:11] <scott-work_> perhaps i haven't spent enough time with it
[23:12] <holstein> we'll just have to see where gnome goes
[23:21] <scott-work_> going home
[23:53] <TheMuso> Actually, the studio disks already have some or most of the indicator infrastructure on the disk, but since the panel layout doesn't use them, they don't get loaded by default.