[01:05] <genii-around> Hm.
[01:06] <genii-around> !firefox
[01:06] <genii-around> !firefox-3.5
[01:09] <genii-around> Anybody mind if I edit it to be !firefox4  ?
[01:16] <rww> !-firefox
[01:16] <rww> !-firefox4
[01:17] <rww> !firefox =~ s/-3.5/4/
[01:17] <rww> !firefox
[01:17] <genii-around> :)
[01:17] <rww> ah :)
[04:20] <emma> Good evening.
[04:21] <emma> I have a few questions for anyone who's available. It would be nice to talk to madpilot but I don't see that person here.
[04:21] <rww> I'm around, though I'm perhaps not most representative of the ops team on the sort of questions you probably have.
[04:22] <emma> rww: I agree.
[04:25] <emma> Probably it would be best to talk to someone who's on the IRC council if any of them are awake.
[04:28] <IdleOne> there is an email address @ !appeals for the ircc
[04:28] <IdleOne> if that helps any
[04:28] <emma> I think jussi and Pici are on that council could someone tell me who else is currently part of that group?
[04:28] <emma> IdleOne: could be useful :)
[04:28] <rww> emma: Pici isn't on it any more
[04:28] <IdleOne> !appeals > emma
[04:28] <emma> rww: oh okay.
[04:29] <rww> emma: elky, jussi, topyli, nhandler, tsimpson
[04:29] <IdleOne> I think best thing would be to email
[04:29] <emma> rww: oh wow, elky is on the IRC council again?
[04:30] <rww> emma: yup, she replaced Pici last vote
[04:30] <rww> (jussi got re-elected)
[04:30] <emma> That's an enormous set back for the ubuntu community on IRC.
[04:31] <emma> IdleOne: You may be able to answer some of the questions I have.
[04:31] <IdleOne> I'll try
[04:31] <emma> rww: You might also but since I consider you a friend I'd rather not get mixed up in a potential disagreement with you.
[04:31] <emma> IdleOne: What is the stated purpose of #ubuntu-ops at this point?
[04:32] <IdleOne> resolution of bans in the ubuntu core channels
[04:32] <rww> I'll sit in the background, then. Feel free to highlight me, anyone.
[04:33] <emma> Right. So I think it's a problem when you leave bans on people from the channel you have chosen to resolve bans.
[04:33] <hypatia> they are still free to appeal via email, yo
[04:33] <hypatia> as everyone else is
[04:33] <IdleOne> emma: there are a few users who are banned from this channel but that is because that have demonstrated a lack of willingness to work with the ops team.
[04:33] <hypatia> i've only ever seen people banned from here for being disruptive or not following obvious channel policy
[04:34] <IdleOne> s/that/they/
[04:34] <tonyyarusso> (And, interestingly, you're clearly not one of them.)
[04:34] <emma> I don't need to be the direct victim of a bad policy to recognize that it's not right.
[04:35] <hypatia> banning disruptive users is a bad policy? seems like a good policy to me
[04:35] <IdleOne> emma: to be honest I don't feel I am in the best position to answer questions about policy. There are other active ops so if they feel like tackling some questions...
[04:35] <hypatia> particularly when there's an obvious method for appeal
[04:36] <IdleOne> I do think that it would be best to direct these questions to the IRCC though
[04:36] <tonyyarusso> You do, however, have to be the person affected by a ban to appeal it.  We've been over that before, on at least two occasions.
[04:36] <rww> If I may interject, it's previously been decided that policy discussions, even using specific bans as examples, are fine when done by third parties.
[04:37] <emma> I don't know the details about every person you have banned from -ops. But I am particular concerned about friends from ##club-ubuntu who seem to get singled out with prejudice and then denied any opportunity to address that in the channel ostensibly reserved for questions about op abuse.
[04:37] <tonyyarusso> If you'd like to discuss policy in generic terms, the -irc mailing list would be more appropriate for that.
[04:37] <IdleOne> op abuse should be reported to the IRCC see !appeals
[04:37] <emma> For example I think it would be appropriate to unban Anastasius from this channel.
[04:37] <tonyyarusso> rww: Usually not here though, since it falls outside of the channel scope definition IdleOne summarized.  (Hard to have a policy discussion when only a few people can be around for it.)
[04:38] <rww> tonyyarusso: I specifically mean here.
[04:38] <rww> tonyyarusso: You can disagree with the efficacy all you want, but doing it is fine.
[04:38] <hypatia> emma: please feel free to take up those feelings with the -irc list, or the IRCC
[04:38] <emma> The other thing I would like to know is the name(s) of the semi-secret and unlogged channels that you are using in lieu of this one.
[04:39] <rww> emma: #ubuntu-irc-team. It's been named in logged IRCC meetings and in here, and is thus not semi-secret.
[04:39] <rww> sorry, #ubuntu-ops-team.
[04:39] <emma> Maybe Anastasius hasn't been banned from any of the secret ones and he could go there to find out why he's been banned from here.
[04:39] <rww> #ubuntu-ops-team is invite-only
[04:39] <hypatia> that's not the purpose of the secondary, non-secret ones.
[04:39] <hypatia> that's what the email list and ircc are for, emma
[04:40] <hypatia> emma: we have a stated path for appeals. it doesn't include a choice of venue.  is that so hard to understand?
[04:40] <emma> yes I see well I think there may be some issues with forcing a regime of logging on all of us ordinary users in channels like #ubuntu but then deciding that unlogged channels are good enough for the elect.
[04:40] <hypatia> that's nice.
[04:40] <hypatia> take it up with the ircc
[04:40] <emma> I would like to encourage all of you to think about the reasons why you thought an unlogged channel was good enough for yourselves and see if those reasons don't apply to someone like me also.
[04:41] <hypatia> #ubuntu-topic remains unlogged
[04:41] <IdleOne> the semi secret channel is logged.
[04:41] <hypatia> which logged channels are you annoyed about, emma ?
[04:41] <tonyyarusso> I already thought about it.  Like 4 years ago when this first came up.  Oh, and then again about every 8 months since.
[04:41] <emma> hypatia: all of them.
[04:41] <tonyyarusso> hypatia: Are you unfamiliar with this particular gripe from the past?
[04:42] <rww> To (hopefully objectively) clarify what IdleOne said, #ubuntu-ops-team is privately logged by ubottu (?) so the CC or IRCC have trustworthy logs to use in case of claims of problematic behavior.
[04:42] <hypatia> tonyyarusso: perhaps this iteration of it.  i was anti-logging of ubuntu-women when that was an issue, and pro- setting up ubuntu-women-project
[04:42] <emma> It is essential that people be given a fair voice because we have long ago established that the ubuntu-ops team frequently makes mistakes. That is not a shameful thing. You are humans.
[04:42] <emma> elky is especially human.
[04:42] <hypatia> i am a robot :(
[04:42] <hypatia> emma: WHY DO YOU HATE ROBOTS
[04:42] <emma> :)
[04:43] <hypatia> anyway, i do get the argument for nto logging in some cases
[04:43] <hypatia> but how can you possibly argue that #ubuntu shouldn't be logged? those logs come up all the time when looking for technical solutions to ubuntu problems
[04:43] <emma> I would like you to unban Anastasius from this channel.
[04:44] <IdleOne> you can forward the appeals link to them
[04:44] <hypatia> emma: then please forward the appeals link to Anastasius
[04:44] <hypatia> as is the standard operating procedure
[04:45] <emma> Also, Id like to invite any of you to hang out with us in ##club-ubuntu so that you can see for yourself the service we are providing the larger Ubuntu Community. That would be helpful so that you won't be a victim to the FUD that some of your especially human colleagues like to spread about us :)
[04:45] <hypatia> emma: i hung out in there on your invitation a few years back.  has the rampant sexism and racism gotten any better?
[04:45] <tonyyarusso> Tried that too, and the FUD is true.
[04:45] <hypatia> that was my direct personal experience, not FUD, anyway
[04:46] <hypatia> nice try though!
[04:47] <hypatia> emma: it should probably be clear by this point that while i respect your right to free speech, that doesn't mean i have to listen to what you have to say.  your friend should take it up by the proper channels.  you're not going to get anywhere complaining on their behalf here.
[04:47] <emma> tonyyarusso - hypatia  see this is the interesting thing about perspectives. What you perceive as negativity I perceive as actually dealing with real people in authentic terms. Successfully doing that is at the heart of genuine communities.
[04:48] <hypatia> that's nice, doesn't mean i want to hang out there.  see above comment.
[04:48] <tonyyarusso> Well, what you "perceive" is not how Ubuntu channels operate.  You have your channel, and it operates as it does, and Ubuntu channels operate they way they do, under drastically different values than yours.  Full stop.
[04:48] <hypatia> and i didn't percieve it as "negativity", i perceived it as rampant sexism and racism.  please don't put words in my mouth, emma
[04:49] <hypatia> your right to free speech lets you do that, but also lets me point out when that's not something i said :p
[04:49] <emma> hypatia: I fully respect that you are not the sort of person that would find ##club-ubuntu valuable. We are more a channel for the type of person who prefers living in the heart of the city rather than the well groomed security of the suburbs.
[04:49] <hypatia> oh hum
[04:49] <emma> Im glad there are lots of family friendly choices for people like you :)
[04:49] <hypatia> i live two minutes from the main station in the largest city in canada
[04:49] <hypatia> nice try though!
[04:49] <emma> Since Ubuntu is an OS for "all humanity" im also glad that ##club-ubuntu exists for people who like things less filtered :)
[04:50] <hypatia> which is now getting offtopic for -ops
[04:50] <emma> hypatia: right I live in NYC Ive visited Toronto. It has some nice streets.
[04:50] <hypatia> got any more ops issues, emma ?
[04:50] <emma> hypatia: yes :)
[04:50] <hypatia> let's keep to those then, ok?
[04:50] <tonyyarusso> ##club-ubuntu is not and never will be part of the Ubuntu community, as it does not follow the Ubuntu community's Code of Conduct.  Please don't pretend otherwise - it's not going to happen.
[04:51] <emma> Oh actually that's not true either. But that's not why I came in here.
[04:51] <emma> So I think I've been pretty clear that banning Anastasius from the channel where he's supposed to have a voice about op abuse is a mistake. It doesn't do any good for any of you and doesn't produce trust or good will.
[04:52] <hypatia> ah we're still on that
[04:52] <emma> since most of you are good people I sincerely hope you will bring this up in your semi-secret channels for me.
[04:52] <hypatia> emma: that discussion is basically over.  tell him to appeal it
[04:52] <tonyyarusso> That's been addressed.  Is there a *different* issue you have?
[04:53] <emma> Yes. You should stop singling out people who hang out in ##club-ubuntu for special mistreatment. And you should stop logging all of the channels in the #ubuntu* name space as long as you are not logging your own operator channels.
[04:53] <emma> Whatever reasons are good enough for your own privacy is good enough for the rest of us.
[04:53] <IdleOne> the channel is logged.
[04:53] <hypatia> emma: please send a message to the -irc list with your concerns
[04:54] <emma> If none of you have anything else that I can help you with I'm going to have to close this window because there are some channels that I do not allow to idle in my IRC client.
[04:54] <hypatia> seems like we're at that point, emma
[04:54] <hypatia> bye!
[04:54] <emma> toodles :)
[04:55] <hypatia> that is an excellent quit message.

[04:57] <hypatia> me? never.
[07:52] <hypatia> ok llua's quit message is creeping me the hell out
[07:53] <Tm_T> I'll set banforward to here
[07:53] <hypatia> Tm_T: <3
[07:57] <Tm_T> hmm, I'm not sure if I did mess something with a silly typo
[07:57] <rww> it's all good now
[07:58] <rww> you temporarily set the channel invite-only :34
[07:58] <rww> s/4//
[07:58] <Tm_T> ye, noticed that
[09:53] <rcconf> Danielcg25 is not following the guidelines at #ubuntu
[09:54] <Tm_T> rcconf: on it
[09:55] <rcconf> he continues with offtopic :\
[09:55] <rcconf> bye
[09:56] <Jordan_U> Tm_T: Sorry, didn't mean to step on you there.
[09:56] <Tm_T> Jordan_U: no problem, have time to keep an eye?
[09:57] <Jordan_U> No, I'm half asleep already.
[09:57] <Tm_T> thanks anyway (:
[10:01] <Tm_T> I commented the removal
[10:15] <rcconf> 10:14:32  * Zigounette catch rcconf and shoot with arm foot in nuts of rcconf.
[10:15] <rcconf> ..
[10:15] <rcconf> i am out of lucky today
[10:15] <rcconf> luck
[10:17] <rcconf> 10:17:09 <Zigounette> i kill you with a spoon !
[10:25] <Tm_T> ubottu: guidelines > zigounette
[10:25] <Tm_T> bah
[10:25] <rcconf> lol
[10:36] <mrmist> Probably not worth it. he's a bit crazy
[10:36] <rcconf> lol
[10:37] <rcconf> didnt feed him
[11:25] <jussi> rcconf: is there anything else you need from us?
[11:25] <rcconf> no bye
[12:02] <Mamarok> btw, Zigounette is another word for penis
[12:03] <knome> penoss @#xubuntu
[12:05] <jussi> Just a reminder peoples, please, lets have anything you want discussed at UDS added here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/UDS-O/Ideas
[12:06] <knome> what's the correct banforw command again? :(
[12:08] <Tm_T> knome: normal banmask+$#channel
[12:08] <Tm_T> without the plus
[12:08] <jussi> The suffix "$#channel" can be appended to any of the above bans masks to cause a user to be forwarded to #channel. The ban setter will only be able to set this ban if they are an op in #channel, or if #channel has channel mode +F set. In this case, in all situations where the user would previously have been told they could not join, they will instead join the channel named in the ban mask and be sent a 470 numeric describing the forward.
[12:08] <knome> yeah
[12:08] <jussi> from !modes ;)
[12:08] <knome> i was failing with irssi commands
[12:08] <knome> :|
[12:09] <jussi> knome: autobleh?
[12:09] <jussi> /afrn nick channel comment
[12:09] <knome> i have to use bans so rarely..
[12:11] <knome> jussi, and i heard you called me weird!!
[12:11] <jussi> yep, you are :D
[12:11] <jussi> :P
[12:12] <knome> :P
[12:12] <knome> so when are you next @helsinki?
[12:25] <jussi> knome: ~vappu
[12:25] <knome> jussi, ~drunk?
[12:25] <jussi> no, wifes little sisters wedding (religious, no drink)
[12:26] <knome> aha
[12:26] <knome> if you have any free time... we could go and have a beer
[12:26] <ikonia> jussi always has time for a beer
[12:26] <jussi> Ill try fit it in - would be nice
[12:27] <knome> ikonia, me too ;)
[12:27] <ikonia> ahh another message from bacta
[12:27] <ikonia> 11:17 -!- Bacta is now known as IAMAJew
[12:27] <ikonia> 11:17 <IAMAJew> Jew
[12:27] <jussi> but Im sure you understand how things go at a wedding. Perhaps I can suggest we "disappear" to keep us out of the way
[12:27] <ikonia> must have missed it while I was waiting for the kettle to boil
[12:27] <knome> jussi, hhehe.. yeah :D
[12:29] <jussi> btw, has anyone seen funkyHat recently?
[12:30] <ikonia> nope, nor jacksparrow,
[12:30] <LjL> not on IRC, but yes
[12:30] <LjL> probably 3 or 4 days ago last time
[12:30] <jussi> LjL: if you speak to him, could you get him to contact me?
[12:30] <LjL> jussi: yup
[12:31] <jussi> thanks
[12:57] <emma> Good morning.
[12:57] <ikonia> morning
[12:57] <emma> Why did you need me to come here to tell me where the log to #ubuntu-ops-team is?
[12:57] <ikonia> only caught your last line in #ubuntu, so don't know what I missed/context
[12:57] <ikonia> ahh, you said #ubuntu-irc-team, I was going to tell you that's not a channel and find out what you actually wanted
[12:58] <ikonia> that channel isn't publicly logged, its logged for COC complience and available to the community council and obviously irc council
[12:58] <ikonia> that's why I asked you to join as I didn't know what you wanted with #ubuntu-irc-team not existing
[12:58] <emma> Oh I was told - in here - last night that there was a channel called #ubuntu-irc-team
[12:58] <ikonia> ah, must have been a mistake, no such channel,
[12:58] <Pici> There is, but its not being used.
[12:59] <ikonia> that's a better wording, it's empty
[12:59] <Pici> ikonia: That was one of jussi's ideas that didn't really take off as planned.
[12:59] <emma> I guess there is no way to know if it's being used unless a person trusts you or if it's logged.
[12:59] <ikonia> join it and see
[12:59] <ikonia> #ubuntu-irc-team is empty
[12:59] <ikonia> I've just joined, and it's empty
[12:59] <emma> Okay I tried joining #ubuntu-ops-team and it did not let me.
[13:00] <ikonia> ah, that's because it's for ops only
[13:00] <jussi> we dropped -irc-team a good while back
[13:00] <emma> And it's not publicly logged.
[13:00] <ikonia> sorry, I thought you meant #ubuntu-irc-team
[13:00] <jussi> no, it isnt
[13:00] <emma> As you both know there are many people who find the history of public logging in the #ubuntu* namespace offensive to begin with.
[13:01] <emma> In the past one could at least say that the elect where holding themeslves to the same invasive standard.
[13:01] <ikonia> nothing has changed
[13:01] <emma> I urge those of you who have good will to think about the reasons you thought public logging was a bad idea for yourselves and figure out why those reasons are not also good enough for the rest of us.
[13:01] <ikonia> you urged this last night
[13:02] <emma> Have a good day.
[13:02] <ikonia> bye
[13:08] <tsimpson> for the record, the full reasoning is on the ML and in the team report
[13:58] <ikonia> keyup was keyUp [~dejan@89.205.61.229]
[13:58] <ikonia> dejan who is ban dodging
[15:07] <sporkbomb> good morning ... could someone brief me on why I am banned from #ubuntu?
[15:07] <sporkbomb> I asked some ops in #freenode, and they said that there is a ban on all bshellz accounts?
[15:09] <genii-around> sporkbomb: That is correct
[15:09] <genii-around> !proxy
[15:11] <sporkbomb> that's a shame that others screw it up for the rest
[15:11] <sporkbomb> genii-around: thanks for the info
[15:35]  * rww facepalms
[15:36] <rww> I mentioned yesterday both that I typoed #ubuntu-ops-team as #ubuntu-irc-team and that #ubuntu-ops-team is not publicly logged. Meh.
[15:37] <charlie-tca> It's not a hidden channel, it just is not public, right
[15:37] <rww> correct
[15:38] <rww> It got mentioned in here, in #ubuntu-meeting, and on ubuntu-irc@lists. I'm not sure how it could be /more/ non-secret.
[15:39] <rww> s#/more/ non-#/less/ #
[15:56] <mneptok> if it's not hidden, why did i not know about it?
[15:57] <mneptok> no one ever asked me to idle on that channel. i never received e-mail about it ...
[15:57] <tsimpson> there were emails sent
[15:57] <mneptok> 08:57 [Freenode] -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- Mode lock  : +s
[15:58] <genii-around> I think I recall something about it on #ubuntu-irc mailing list
[15:59] <tsimpson> mneptok: you should already have an +I there
[16:00] <tsimpson> mneptok: you should just be able to join it
[16:00] <tsimpson> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-irc/2011-February/001254.html
[16:01] <mneptok> tsimpson: i have received no notification of any kind WRT that channel though
[16:01] <tsimpson> are you subscribed to the IRC list?
[16:02] <mneptok> tsimpson: and "i propose" is not the same as "this channel exists, and you should /join it"
[16:02] <tsimpson> and I'm sure it's been mentioned a few times in here too
[16:07] <charlie-tca> Here is where discussions about it needing +i happened, if I recall right.
[16:23] <tsimpson> yeah, but I added a +I on the nickserv account for everyone with +v in here
[16:39] <tsimpson> mneptok: that message was just the first in the thread, it later says it was created and people with +v here are welcome to join
[16:39] <tsimpson> it's not a requirement that you join, but we would recommend it
[16:40] <tsimpson> it's not intended to be a replacement for -ops, this is still the primary channel where core ops should communicate
[17:38] <Pici> IdleOne: I don't think it belongs in offtopic either.  There are places to have that discussion and she has that information.
[17:38] <IdleOne> riht
[17:38] <IdleOne> right
[17:41] <Pici> I don't have time at the moment to go back and forth with her (or anyone) about it though.  Work is busy enough.
[20:20] <IdleOne> ubottu: tell shadaloo about guidelines
[20:49] <genii-around> Pici: No floodbot in +1 ?
[20:49] <Pici> genii-around: nope
[20:49] <Pici> We've never needed it in the past.
[20:50] <genii-around> OK
[21:30] <guntbert> can someone have a word with vaaginaa aka peeniss in #u ?
[21:30] <IdleOne> done
[21:30] <guntbert> thx
[22:05] <emma> Good afternoon. It is nice to see that you didn't ban me from here also. I understand we are banning people from the channel made to report op abuse also now.
[22:05] <emma> You all have a lot of problems my friends and you are damaging yourselves with your choices.
[22:05] <tsimpson> emma: if you can't talk sensibly, then why are you here?
[22:05] <emma> Which of my posts do you feel lacks sense?
[22:06] <tsimpson> both of the ones you posted here, just
[22:06] <emma> Apparently there are two ops channels. There's this one where I will be logged, and then there's the other one which I can neither join nor have any information about. But you want me to just trust you.
[22:07] <tsimpson> we discussed this at length, we even talked about respect
[22:07] <tsimpson> you show none
[22:07] <tsimpson> you actively abuse #ubuntu, and expect nothing to be done?
[22:07] <emma> Thats interesting because I absolutely feel I have been exceedingly respectful. I think the public log that is in effect on this channel bares that out.
[22:08] <tsimpson> you know the rules in #ubuntu well
[22:08] <tsimpson> I know you do
[22:08] <tsimpson> you chose to disregard them
[22:08] <emma> What Im curious about is what disrespectful things some of you may be saying about me, or the rest of us in your exclusive channel. Could you fill me in?
[22:08] <tsimpson> that is not respectful
[22:08] <tsimpson> #ubuntu is not a place for you to rant it
[22:08] <tsimpson> it's for people seeking support for Ubuntu
[22:09] <tsimpson> by disrupting that channel, you disrupt them
[22:09] <tsimpson> that is not fair on them
[22:09] <emma> No that's called caring a great deal about what is right. I am not your standard visitor here. I am not a poorly educated troll. I am an adult like you who cares about transparency and hypocrisy and the spirit of openness that I thought was supposed to exist in Ubuntu.
[22:10] <emma> I fully respect and understand that for a group who has created an exclusive channel that no one else can observe, informing people in #ubuntu about what you are doing will feel llike a disruption.
[22:10] <tsimpson> just because you don't consider yourself a troll, don't mean you are above the channel rules
[22:10] <tsimpson> you don't respect the rules, clearly
[22:11] <emma> The 'rules' such as they are need to be made respectable. That, in part, comes from being created and enforced by a respectable regime. That depends on having authority that is legitimate. And you are undermining that with your own policies.
[22:11] <hypatia> the rules seem pretty reasonable to me
[22:12] <hypatia> saying they need to be "made respectable" implies that you have a perfect sense of what respectable is, emma
[22:12] <hypatia> how do you know that's the case?
[22:12] <tsimpson> emma: as you well know, if you don't agree with the channel rules, don't use the channel
[22:12] <hypatia> also, being polite and articulate in your opinions doesn't make you less of a troll.
[22:12] <tsimpson> this is not a new idea to you
[22:12] <emma> Telling everyone else that they will be logged. And then using that log for kicking and banning. While you yourselves run off to an exclusive closed door hideout that no one can hold accountable is not the behaviour of legitimate authority it is the behaviour of a frightened gang.
[22:12] <emma> Your policies are designed to create maximal group think.
[22:13] <hypatia> emma: if you disagree with them so strongly, maybe this isn't the community for you?
[22:13] <maco> The purpose of logging support channels is so that the helpful advice given can be found again later. The purpose of logging development and meeting channels is so that reasoning can be read later. The offtopic channels are unlogged because what goes on in them is of no use.
[22:13] <LjL> The offtopic channels are unlogged because what goes on in them is of no use.
[22:13] <emma> hypatia: Sure I also respect that some people take the path of "quit when you don't like something" If that's you that's okay. But that's not me.
[22:14] <LjL> (whoops, mispaste)
[22:14] <tsimpson> emma: did you ignore everything we talked about? did you completely ignore me?
[22:14] <tsimpson> were you just fobbing me off or something?
[22:14] <emma> I think people who care about transparency and consistency should not just leave when they see something outrageous.
[22:14] <hypatia> yeah, i'd like to see your answers to tsimpson's questions, emma
[22:14] <hypatia> sorry to have interjected, tsimpson
[22:15] <LjL> emma: you, with your insistence, with your talking to people in PM until they get weary and then going in public (to troll #ubuntu or the like) showing the conversation was entirely useless and making everyone frustrated, is what encourages group think here, and has for years now.
[22:15] <emma> well you see here is another thing that happens. When I come in here I am of course going to be logged. No doubt anything I say could be used against me for all time to come. And it will be me verous the whole lot of you as you circle the wagons and speak in unison since of course none of you ever make mistakes.
[22:15] <tsimpson> you say "closed door hideout that no one can hold accountable", I explained to you *several* times that is is logged and ops are held accountable
[22:15] <emma> Meanwhile who knows what you are saying about me in the exclusive channel that none of us can monitor.
[22:15] <maco> emma: but the Community Council can monitor it. would you rather what's said in there be said in PM?
[22:15] <emma> isn't that a beautiful system you have all created. You have ensured that no one can *ever* even in principle challenge any of you.
[22:15] <hypatia> emma: how are you distinguishing between us just agreeing vs. "groupthink"?
[22:16] <emma> Well done my friends. Well done.
[22:16] <hypatia> just curious
[22:16] <hypatia> actually, i don't really care, never mind.
[22:16] <maco> i mean, i guess we could go back to completely unlogged private messages...
[22:16] <LjL> or as i often suggested, op every op here, and use OMSG/ONOTICE ;)
[22:16] <tsimpson> so you're not going to answer me emma?
[22:16] <maco> this seems more transparent though
[22:16] <hypatia> this is such a waste of time.
[22:16] <hypatia> emma: please answer tsimpson
[22:17] <emma> yes I respect that you feel I am a waste of time. That my concerns are  waste of time, and that transparency is a waste of time.
[22:17] <tsimpson> you are putting words in peoples mouths
[22:17] <hypatia> emma: you are putting words in my mouth
[22:17] <tsimpson> that does not show respect
[22:17] <hypatia> emma: i did not say that.
[22:17] <emma> I'm glad you said that it was a waste of time in the channel that is logged rather than your exclusive channel where we can't know how you really feel.
[22:18] <emma> Hey guys it's very transparent for *You* and that's what matters right? After all you all are the "good guys" right?
[22:18] <hypatia> let me clarify, since it was apparently unclear: i think that arguing with you is like arguing with a brick wall, emma .  i'm actually a big fan of transparency! but i don't care about your angle on it at this point.
[22:18] <tsimpson> emma: is there a point answering your questions?
[22:18] <emma> You *are* the community. And as long as you are not excluded then everyone is included. Right?
[22:18] <hypatia> yawn
[22:18] <emma> tsimpson: ask a question that I can answer.
[22:18] <hypatia> emma: go make your own sandbox.
[22:19] <hypatia> this is boring.
[22:19] <tsimpson> emma: I asked several, pick one
[22:19] <hypatia> scrollback is violating her freedom, apparently.
[22:19] <tsimpson> hypatia: she already did
[22:19] <emma> hypatia: yes thank you for clarifying that I was putting words in your mouth when I said that you think my perspective is a waste of time by pointing out that what you were really saying is that my perspective is a waste of time.
[22:19] <hypatia> tsimpson: hah, good point.
[22:19] <emma> hypatia: and again, thank you for saying that in the channel that is logged.
[22:19] <hypatia> emma: i'm happy to be quite public with my opinions of your antics.
[22:20] <emma> Good, then we just need to hear from everyone else.
[22:20] <hypatia> not really.
[22:20] <tsimpson> emma: display some respect and you may receive some
[22:20] <emma> I have been exceedingly respectful.
[22:20] <hypatia> i mean, everyone else is free to talk about your antics, but i don't think it'll add much to the conversatiom
[22:20] <tsimpson> emma: no you haven't
[22:20] <LjL> emma: no, trolling #Ubuntu is not respectful.
[22:20] <hypatia> emma: you don't seem to be able to follow simple guidelines like not trolling #ubuntu
[22:21] <emma> I was not trolling anything. I was making people aware of an injustice.
[22:21] <maco> emma: you were not on the topic of tech support
[22:21] <tsimpson> were your comments on topic for #ubuntu?
[22:21] <maco> that is a violation of the rules. period.
[22:21] <tsimpson> were they support questions?
[22:21] <emma> yes you have all jumped on that word now. I guess that settles it then.
[22:21] <tsimpson> no.
[22:21] <LjL> you were blatantly disregarding the rules you knew, emma. that is called trolling.
[22:21] <hypatia> you know, i think it's just time to ban you for a chronic inability to grasp the CoC
[22:21] <hypatia> this whole conversation is offtopic for here.
[22:21] <emma> hypatia: well that will also be met with nothing but support since that's what groupthink does.
[22:21] <hypatia> emma: please leave.
[22:22] <hypatia> wahhhh groupthink
[22:22] <tsimpson> emma: regardless of how you choose to label yourself, you actively decided to disregard the channel rules because you felt you were better than them
[22:22] <hypatia> grow up.
[22:22] <emma> group think will be easier to foster now that you have an exclusive channel that no one else can see.
[22:22] <tsimpson> that is what a troll does
[22:22]  * maco hands hypatia a cup of chamomile
[22:22] <LjL> emma: either you work within the rules, respecting the rules, and try to change them while respecting them, or otherwise you ignore them and attempt to make a revolution.
[22:22] <LjL> revolutions aren't necessarily bad.
[22:22] <LjL> if you think this needs a revolution, feel free to try.
[22:22] <maco> emma: will you stop lying about who can see it? the Community Council has access
[22:22] <LjL> if not, then respect the rules.
[22:22] <maco> this has been said over and over
[22:22] <emma> LjL: thanks :)
[22:22] <maco> so please, stop lying
[22:23] <maco> The situation where the CC can review what is going on is heaps better than the prior situation, where everything was done in private messages with no review possible
[22:23] <emma> Im not lying about anything and I think it's insulting for you to imply im a liar.
[22:23] <maco> when you keep repeating the blatant falsehood that nobody but ops can see the logs, that is lying
[22:23] <tsimpson> you are either deliberately misleading people
[22:23] <emma> Yes because now we know that there will be no more PMs. What are you saying?
[22:23] <tsimpson> or plain lying
[22:24] <tsimpson> either way, it's deception
[22:24] <emma> I did not say that no one but ops can see the logs. I said that we cannot see the logs.
[22:24] <maco> tsimpson: i call "deliberately misleading" "lying by omission"
[22:24] <LjL> i think maybe we should start logging both #ubuntu-ops-team and #ubuntu-offtopic
 group think will be easier to foster now that you have an exclusive channel that no one else can see.
[22:24] <maco> ^ this was not you?
[22:24] <hypatia> LjL: we do log ubuntu-ops-team
[22:24] <hypatia> privately
[22:24] <LjL> hypatia: yeah i meant publicly. i also log #ubuntu-offtopic privately :P
[22:24] <emma> maco: you allow the elect to see the channel and the rest of us are to be kept in the dark.
[22:24] <tsimpson> emma:  <emma> However the ubuntu ops have voted to make an exclusive channel that none of us can join, and they have voted that it will *not* be logged. Because they have voted they need privacy that none of us deserve.
[22:24] <tsimpson> lies
[22:25] <emma> I fully respect that for you that's just fine since you are on the inside.
[22:25] <tsimpson> or misinformation
[22:25] <tsimpson> lies basically
[22:25] <hypatia> hey folks
[22:25] <emma> Do any of you care about being an inclusive community?
[22:25] <hypatia> we're clearly arguing the same thing over and over
[22:25] <hypatia> emma: you're not going to persuade anyone here.  please leave, and take this up with the IRCC if you must.
[22:25] <emma> that is a fully accurate description of what you have done. It is revolting but it is accurate.
[22:26] <maco> no it is not
[22:26] <hypatia> i care about not including trolls.
[22:26] <maco> because the channel is logged
[22:26] <hypatia> or racists, or sexists, ec
[22:26] <maco> it is at least 1% inaccurate for that reason
[22:26] <emma> it's logged but no one can see it.
[22:26] <tsimpson> emma: no it's nto
[22:26] <maco> emma: the CC are "no one"?
[22:26] <emma> The CC are *you*
[22:26] <maco> no we're not
[22:26] <hypatia> emma: you seem to care about including those groups, i don't think this attitude is compatible with the community
[22:26] <maco> i am not a CC member
[22:26] <hypatia> i'm also not a CC member
[22:26] <hypatia> nice try though!
[22:26] <maco> there are only ...what, 7 people on the CC?
[22:26] <tsimpson> I too am not a CC member
[22:27] <emma> I am not saying that any of you *are* the CC. I am saying that there is no reason to trust that the CC will be interested in ALL THE REST OF US and not just all of you.
[22:27] <maco> https://launchpad.net/~communitycouncil/+members#active <-- that's the CC
 The CC are *you*
 I am not saying that any of you *are* the CC.
[22:27]  * hypatia is done.
[22:27] <tsimpson> which is it?
[22:27] <emma> Right I guess we need to clarify our pronouns.
[22:27] <LjL> "we"? you do :)
[22:28] <emma> I do not think that the CC is numerically identical to the Ubuntu Ops team. I am surprised this needs clarification.
[22:28] <tsimpson> emma: if I disagree with your channel policies, I don't join your channel. if you disagree with our channel policies, don't join our channels
[22:28] <maco> emma: your first statement heavily implied that you did have that impression
[22:28] <tsimpson> fwiw, I don't agree with your channel policies, which is why I don't join
[22:29] <emma> maco: that is not my impression and never was, I'm sorry it came across that way.
[22:29] <emma> I am fully aware that the CC are a different (small) group of human beings than your group of human beings. The "you" in my statement was an umbrella term for "the elite" the "privliged few". The "insiders", The "establishment'. that's all of you.
[22:29] <emma> The people who still get logged. That's me.
[22:30] <emma> the people who don't get to see but just have to trust. That's me.
[22:30] <LjL> then why not call us "ops", because that's what we are
[22:30] <maco> the CC is elected. if you find them untrustworthy, campaign for someone you trust to be elected next time
[22:30] <emma> You have all failed at being inclusive or open. I hope you change your minds before you damage your credibility.i
[22:30] <tsimpson> emma: as I have stated before, your assumption that all ops are bad people is one I will not ever agree with
[22:30] <LjL> the CC is a different thing, and so is the IRCC
[22:30] <emma> You all have a nice day.
[22:32] <maco> is that 3-letter word allowed in ubuntu channels?
[22:32] <LjL> why not?
[22:32] <charlie-tca> hm, well, everyone has one
[22:32] <hypatia> maco: i think it actually means donkey in that context
[22:32] <hypatia> lol
[22:33] <tsimpson> though I'm sure the choice of that particular word is intentional
[22:33] <maco> hypatia: oh, work as in "beast of burden"?
[22:33] <hypatia> maco: yup
[22:33] <charlie-tca> and they are found in the desert of Nevada, at least
[22:33] <maco> (i dont tend to think of donkeys as having jobs :P)
[22:33] <hypatia> tsimpson: it's probably an Ayn Rand quote.
[22:41] <rww> Should I bother reading any of that?
[22:43] <hypatia> rww: save your braincells
[22:50] <genii-around> Reading The Fountainhead is a few hours of my life I'll never get back.
[23:20] <charlie-tca> Can someone update the topic in #ubuntu+1. the beta1 is released.
[23:21] <Pici> charlie-tca: sure
[23:21] <charlie-tca> Thank you
[23:46] <maco> ubottu: help mark
[23:46] <LjL> mark can help himself
[23:46] <IdleOne> heh
[23:47] <maco> oh right duh. forgot ubottu would ask me for a comment after that /remove
[23:51] <mneptok> oh, an emma visit.
[23:51] <maco> yes, the highlight of our afternoon
[23:51] <LjL_chunky> those are almost as delightful as seeing picture of you, aren't they mneptok
[23:52] <mneptok> LjL_chunky: one is electron Hell. the other is photon Hell.
[23:55] <hypatia> they are not as fun as beating mneptok at Weakest Geek!
[23:55]  * hypatia cackles
[23:58] <mneptok> hypatia: if you had properly noted the "Weakest" in the title, my early departure would have come as no surprise. :)
[23:58]  * mneptok is many things, "burly" not among them.
[23:59]  * maco snorts
[23:59] <maco> oooh who watches Big Bang Theory here?  mneptok ?= howard