[00:22] <BiosElement> Is it odd that I'm actually really looking foward to Unity? (And I'm a KDE user, ironically so it'd mean a return to gnomesoft land) >.>
[00:48] <canthus13> Ugh. Unity. :(
[01:35] <nhandler> Nothing official yet, but I'm getting close to deciding on a college, and since one of them is in Ohio, I figured I might as well start idling in here
[01:36] <Unit193> That's what we all do :)
[01:36] <Unit193> Welcome to the #ubuntu-us-oh channel!
[01:37] <nhandler> Thanks Unit193 :)
[01:39] <Unit193> Man, you're in everything!
[01:40] <canthus13> nhandler: Which college?
[01:41] <Cheri703> welcome nhandler :)
[01:41] <nhandler> Unit193: Not quite, but as a member of the IRCC and freenode staff, I like to idle in a lot of channels
[01:41] <nhandler> canthus13: Case Western
[01:42] <nhandler> Thank you Cheri703
[01:42] <Cheri703> where are you currently?
[01:43] <nhandler> Cheri703: I'm in the NW suburbs of Chicago
[01:43] <Cheri703> ah, I think I may have known that....
[01:43] <Cheri703> we got a few inches of snow here today -_-
[01:43] <paultag> heyya nhandler :)
[01:43] <paultag> nhandler: wellcome to snowhell 2011
[01:43] <nhandler> Sounds fun. I'm in Florida on vacation, so I was at the beach today
[01:43] <nhandler> Hi paultag
[01:43] <paultag> nhandler: it just snowed
[01:43] <Cheri703> I kind of hate you now nhandler
[01:44] <paultag> hehe
[01:44] <nhandler> :D
[01:44] <paultag> nhandler: No shit, when are you coming to check out CW?
[01:45] <paultag> nhandler: the maintainer of bash in GNU is at CWR IIRC
[01:45] <nhandler> paultag: I've gone once already. I'll be setting a date to go a second time sometime this week
[01:45] <paultag> nhandler: let me know! I'm two minutes down the road! :)
[01:45] <nhandler> paultag: As a professor or student?
[01:45] <paultag> nhandler: professor, methinks
[01:45] <nhandler> paultag: I thought you were farther away
[01:45] <paultag> nhandler: no way! CW is Cleveland
[01:45] <paultag> and on the east side, too
[01:46] <paultag> it's about 10 minutes to CWR from JCU
[01:46] <nhandler> paultag: Alright. I'll definitely let you know. It would be great to finally get to meet up in person
[01:46] <paultag> Case kids go to the same bars as us
[01:46] <paultag> nhandler: for sure!
[01:46] <canthus13> nhandler: Cleveland... :(
[01:46] <paultag> nhandler: there's a few great places to eat around
[01:48] <paultag> nhandler: if you end up at CWR, you might consider taking the NEO LoCo from me :)
[01:48] <paultag> since I'll be out of town
[01:51] <nhandler> paultag: I'll talk to you about that if I end up at CWR and after I attend a meeting or two ;)
[01:51] <paultag> nhandler: sure thing :)
[01:57] <paultag> nhandler: so, I got Synnamon chrootable :)
[01:57] <paultag> nothing fancy, yet. It's actually pretty cool
[01:57] <paultag> I've tried to fix all the problems with dpkg :)
[01:58] <nhandler> paultag: Very nice. I've been watching your various status updates about it. It sounds very cool.
[01:58] <paultag> nhandler: I'm super stoked about it :)
[01:58] <paultag> nhandler: I'm matching glibc and gcc versions, so I can "shift without a clutch"
[01:59] <paultag> nhandler: then I'll just upload a new gcc to my build machine, then a new glibc, and do an archive rebuild live
[02:01] <paultag> buhaha :)
[02:03]  * djoe was just in OH briefly
[02:04] <nhandler> paultag: Can you run your package manager alongside dpkg/apt ?
[02:05] <paultag> nhandler: all my machines are doing that now, but they will start to conflict and bork. It's sane enough to not do anything stupid, I'm just using it to do basic builds
[02:05] <paultag> nhandler: it can convert debs into syns, though
[02:06] <paultag> nhandler: I've just removed the idea of multi-binary packages totally. It's all in one blob, with a config file telling syn what files belong to what subpackage
[02:06] <paultag> it'll auto-install some things (marked default) and not install other things (headers) by default
[02:07] <paultag> so deb-to-syn breaks sometimes
[02:08] <nhandler> paultag: I would have been surprised if it didn't. Converting deb->anything is a quite daunting task
[02:08] <paultag> +1
[06:18] <Unit193> It would be really cool if you could integrate Synergy and LibreOffice (Impress)
[06:18] <Cheri703> how so?
[06:22] <Unit193> Like how you can use dual monitors with the "Presenter View" (would be more of a remote control then synergy, but still)
[06:26] <Cheri703> hmm...k
[06:27] <Unit193> Dual monitors and Impress without dual monitors
[06:28] <Cheri703> easiest way would be teamviewer and "don't display mouse on remote computer" or whatever :)
[06:29] <Unit193> That wouldn't give you thre presenter mode...
[06:29] <Cheri703> dunno
[06:30] <Unit193> Anyway, it isn't going to happen...
[15:26] <thafreak> Morning Ohio!
[16:56] <canthus13> Herro.
[16:57]  * canthus13 contemplates running vuln scans on his neighbors' computers.
[16:59] <Cheri703> ?
[16:59] <canthus13> Cheri703: 2 networks near me are wide open, no security.  I'm pondering whether or not to scan their machines for vulnerabilities... If they're running decent AV, it *should* alert...
[17:00] <Cheri703> ah
[17:00] <Cheri703> there are SEVERAL of those near me
[17:00]  * canthus13 figures he could prolly root most of their boxes easily with db_autopwn... but that kinda strays across ethical lines. :P
[17:01] <canthus13> I'm just debating whether or not simply scanning their boxes counts as malicious. :P
[17:01] <canthus13>  /me is getting bored with attacking boxes on his own network. :P
[17:05] <djoe> http://thinkgeek.com/blog/2011/03/take-these-broken-things.html?cpg=fb <- Columbus-area hardware-hackers take note
[17:05] <djoe> heck, I guess paultag  et al could even drive down once a quarter
[17:06] <paultag> ohai
[17:07] <Cheri703> huh, never knew they had a warehouse in cbus
[17:11] <canthus13> One more reason to not buy HP.  http://consumerist.com/2011/02/hp-pretends-linux-voids-netbook-hardware-warranty.html
[17:12] <Cheri703> did you see the thing about samsung and the keyloggers!?
[17:15] <canthus13> Nope.
[17:16] <canthus13> http://www.pcworld.com/article/223872/samsung_cleared_of_keylogger_accusation_one_nagging_question_remains.html
[17:16] <canthus13> that?
[17:16] <Cheri703> maybe, didn't see the newer one...will read now :)
[17:16] <canthus13> Apparently, it was a false alarm with VIPRE.
[17:18] <Cheri703> that's good then
[17:19] <djoe> well, it's proprietary software, so one has to take at their word people who are beholden to the vendor anyway.
[17:19] <djoe> that's the default situation with any proprietary OS.
[17:20] <djoe> which is not news, but it is very much a case of "oh, so why exactly are you worrying about this sort of thing in this case only"
[17:33] <canthus13> djoe: Don't attribute malicious intent where stupidity is more likely.
[17:34] <canthus13> It's far more likely that the windows live crap that it alerted on just happened to have crap code that kind of resembles a keylogger than it is that there is actually malicious code.
[17:43] <djoe> who would I be attributing malice to?  I didn't think I was.
[17:43] <djoe> mostly, I'm attributing naivetee to folks who have such a selective worry about security
[17:44] <djoe> if you're worried about security, maybe proprietary software is not for you
[18:33] <canthus13> djoe: *shrug* You just seem to be equating proprietary with malicious, which isn't necessarily true.
[19:11]  * BiosElement sighs
[19:34] <djoe> canthus13: sorry you see it that way, I don't see that I'm doing anything of the sort.
[19:35] <djoe> it's a basic epistemological question:  "How do you know?"
[19:35] <djoe> with FOSS, you can either look, or choose anyone at all as your agent to look at the code on your behalf
[19:36] <djoe> and that way, there is an auditable chain of accountability.
[19:36] <djoe> with proprietary code, you still have some options, but they are more limited, and colored by the licensing relationships.
[19:37] <djoe> it's not "proprietary software has molicious software in it" but rather "how you can know whether its there or not is more limited"
[19:39] <BiosElement> The arguement is kinda patchy though. Only a dev who spent many, many hours could tell if any piece of foss software was malicious or not. To an end-user, that's not gonna happen. Thus it's no different really.
[19:42] <canthus13> djoe: All good. :)
[19:43] <canthus13> Any Toledo locals who are interested, your local ISP is hiring technical support types... pay is decent, benefits are pretty good.
[19:45] <djoe> BiosElement: an end user isn't going to be a dev who spends hours on the code?
[19:46] <djoe> of course not.
[19:46] <djoe> that's a strawman.
[19:46] <djoe> thus the bit about "choose anyone at all as your  agent to look at the code on your behalf
[19:46] <djoe> "
[19:46] <BiosElement> And that's so very likely.
[19:48] <djoe> happens all the time.
[19:48] <djoe> or maybe you've never read a project mailing list to see who is active in it.
[19:48] <djoe> in which case, you'd have no clue.
[19:48] <djoe> but I suspect you do do that, and so you're familiar with that sort of dynamic.
[19:49] <canthus13> The average user has no clue how to initiate something like that.
[19:50] <BiosElement> And yet it's still not difficult to argue that proprietary software can and usually is equally secure to F/OSS software. Arguing it's inherently less secure is just silly and an average end-user won't hire someone to review it.
[19:50] <canthus13> Not to mention that most people don't know a competent dev that they trust to evaluate something like that, so it's still word of mouth.
[19:50] <djoe> right.  So, if we take, say, one of our family members as the "average user" then they rely on us, and we rely on our inspection of the dev community and therefor on that dev community.
[19:51] <djoe> it doesn't have to be grandpa sitting down with some Russian code whiz, directly.
[19:53] <djoe> BiosElement: I have trouble respecting any attempt to treat "security' as if it is some scalar quantity.  I'm not arguing about 'security' I'm arguing about the presence of malicious code.  They are related, but not the same.  Perhaps too subtle a distinction for you, but that's what we were talking about.
[19:53] <djoe> 'security' usually being wildly context dependent.
[19:53] <BiosElement> That 'is' the same. Malicious code isn't secure for an end-user.
[19:54] <djoe> right.  but the lack of deliberately malicious code isn't the same thing as being 'secure'
[19:54] <djoe> hence the non-identity.
[19:55] <djoe> most security problems are not from malicious code introduced upstream, but due to vulnerabilities in the code that are later exploited.
[19:55] <djoe> so, very very much not the same thing.
[19:55] <BiosElement> Arguing proprietary software inherently has Malicious software in it (or has a higher chance too) is just as bad as Microsoft's average FUD.
[19:55] <djoe> good thing I'm not doing that.
[19:56] <djoe> apology accepted.
[19:57] <BiosElement> Smartass remarks don't help your case. :) Enjoy arguing alone, since you'd rather make petty remarks then actually debate something.
[19:57] <djoe> heh
[20:00] <djoe> I'm glad I had the opportunity to clear up some of your misconceptions, BiosElement, and would be happy to try to help you out of similar confusion in the future, if you'd like.
[20:01] <paultag> hehe
[20:01] <paultag> this conversation is great
[20:02] <paultag> BiosElement: it may in practice be about the same, but at least I can audit my code, and make sure it's not sending passwords over the wire, with F/OSS
[20:02] <paultag> Nonfree crap will not allow me to do this, short of sniffing
[20:02] <paultag> but if it's encrypted, all is lost
[20:02] <djoe> paultag: not true.  there are people outside of the originating companies who look at proprietary code.
[20:02] <BiosElement> paultag: I'm not arguing it isn't easier to secure, but it's FUD to argue it's inherently evil. (As for passwords, that's easy to watch for but I'll give you that one :P)
[20:02] <paultag> djoe: truth
[20:03] <djoe> so, there is some level of inspection there.
[20:03] <djoe> it's just that, in order to look at that code, who knows what contractual limitations have been put in place.
[20:03] <paultag> djoe: yes, but that does not prevent them from doing this. Who knows if that's the code that gets shipped
[20:03] <paultag> djoe: or if they can talk about it
[20:04] <djoe> in principle, one could inspect those agreements, ad infinitum, but at that point it's no less cumbersome than grandpa trusting me and me trusting some dev community . . .
[20:04] <djoe> so, yeah.
[20:05] <djoe> this doesn't even get into the question of whether a data-harvesting "feature" put in to "enhance the customer experience" is in the interests of the user, or not.
[20:05] <paultag> aye
[20:06] <paultag> so, who's got the beer
[20:06] <djoe> maybe some Inherently Evil Ale?
[20:06] <paultag> that'd be awesome
[20:07] <djoe> also, BiosElement, I never said "inherently evil" so I would thank you very much not to ascribe that to me.  I find it, at best, impolite that you accuse me of "arguing" and so on, when what it seems is happening is that you are arguing with some figment of your severely limited imagination.
[20:08] <djoe> You seem to inhabit a world in which any question always only has two sides, and you seem to have assigned me whatever color best fits your chessboard.
[22:09] <nhandler> paultag: Looks like I might be going to an overnight program the 21-22
[22:11]  * SkrappJaw is lurking
[22:11] <Cheri703> hey SkrappJaw
[22:11] <Cheri703> is facebook working for anyone else?
[22:11] <SkrappJaw> sup?
[22:11] <SkrappJaw> hmm...
[22:11] <Unit193> Hello SkrappJaw
[22:11] <SkrappJaw> lemme check
[22:11] <SkrappJaw> hey.
[22:12] <SkrappJaw> ya
[22:12] <Cheri703> other websites are working, facebook chat is connecting via empathy, but I can't reach facebook.com -_-
[22:12] <SkrappJaw> fb works for me
[22:12] <SkrappJaw> i have it
[22:12]  * Unit193 can get to facebook.com but didn't login
[22:13] <Cheri703> weird
[22:13] <SkrappJaw> the cia is decrypting the code in your profile info.
[22:13] <SkrappJaw> lol
[22:14] <Cheri703> could be
[22:14] <Unit193> FBI, not CIA...
[22:14] <SkrappJaw> NSA... :P
[22:14] <Unit193> That was my next one
[22:15] <Cheri703> restarted FF and we're good now :)
[22:16] <SkrappJaw> dont ya know canines arent supposed to eat cookies?
[22:17] <Cheri703> ?
[22:18] <SkrappJaw> ops. thought i was typing in pidgin
[22:18] <SkrappJaw> lol
[22:18] <Cheri703> heh
[22:21] <SkrappJaw> Setting up vbox for Andy.
[22:21] <Cheri703> nice
[22:21] <SkrappJaw> bout to get him in xchat.
[22:22] <Unit193> Not pidgin?
[22:24] <SkrappJaw> he's on pidgin
[22:25] <Unit193> Pidgin also works with IRC...
[22:25] <SkrappJaw> ya?
[22:25] <Cheri703> I tried it and didn't like it
[22:25] <Unit193> Yeah, but Xchat will give you a little more info
[22:25]  * Cheri703 likes xchat :)
[22:26] <SkrappJaw> I like a dedicated IRC window.
[22:26]  * Unit193 likes irssi >:)
[22:26]  * SkrappJaw likes ssh
[22:26] <Unit193> +screen
[22:26] <SkrappJaw>  +screen?
[22:27] <Cheri703> screen is pretty cool, I've still not really messed with it though, and I like my non-command line based chat :)
[22:27] <Cheri703> screen is via ssh
[22:27] <Cheri703> so you could have irssi running on your home computer and hop back into it from your laptop
[22:27] <Unit193> Or from Panera ;)
[22:28] <Cheri703> indeed
[22:28] <SkrappJaw> sweet
[22:28] <Unit193> If you like pidgin, you could try finch (about the same, finch is for terminal)
[22:28] <SkrappJaw> Terminal? that sounds cool.
[22:28] <SkrappJaw> can i apt-get install that?
[22:29] <Unit193> You already have that...
[22:29] <Cheri703> terminal is your command line program
[22:30] <SkrappJaw> I know but i didnt know there was a chat app that ran in the terminal
[22:30] <Unit193> sudo apt-get install finch (I use the pidgin PPA)
[22:30] <SkrappJaw> cool
[22:31] <Cheri703> ah, yeah
[22:31] <Unit193> It uses libpurple and the same config dir as pidgin (so if you have pidgin setup, you have finch setup with all your logs)
[22:34] <SkrappJaw> brb
[22:34] <SkrappJaw> food
[22:51] <SkrappJaw> back
[22:53] <Unit193> How/what was the food?
[22:53] <SkrappJaw> cheri703: When is the next mans ubuhour?
[22:53] <Cheri703> as of now, it is next thursday at 6
[22:53] <paultag> nhandler: of april?
[22:53] <SkrappJaw> cool. gives me time to get to wood st afte taht
[22:55] <SkrappJaw> http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/pages/Skrapp-Jaw/163509587038250
[22:55] <SkrappJaw> I made a page for my solo bits.
[22:58] <Unit193> SkrappJaw: Do you use Google Cal? you can hit the + Google Calendar on (http://ohio.ubuntu-us.org/calendar) to add to your calendar
[23:00] <SkrappJaw> no. I dont. just facebook.
[23:00] <Cheri703> you can still bookmark it and look at it :)
[23:09] <SkrappJaw> ctrl+d
[23:10] <Unit193> FF4?
[23:43] <SkrappJaw> any