[00:12] <ScottL> TheMuso, i don't think so, i've not even wanted to remove -controls but i think we should
[00:30] <ailo> scott-upstairs, About the documentation. Much could be solved with the -controls. I would like to include a soundcheck option to it. The system checklist we talked about I believe we have already brought up a few times. falktx has included that into his -controls app, though I'm not sure if it's doing anything yet.
[00:33] <ailo> scott-upstairs, My main focus with the documentation is to make it as short and comprehensive as possible on the important items, which is setting up the system
[00:40] <scott-upstairs> ailo, heh, i haven't looked at the documentation yet :)  but i will assuredly
[00:41] <ailo> scott-upstairs, Not much to see. 
[01:02] <ailo> scott-upstairs, I would rewrite everything on there, so there' almost no point in showing it, but since we talked about making an outline, at least I could show what I did so far, though there is not much to see. 
[14:13] <ckontros> ScottL: Yo
[14:17] <ScottL> hi ckontros 
[14:18] <ScottL> how are you doing?
[14:18] <ckontros> ScottL: I'm well. Got a second for an informational chat? :)
[14:18] <ScottL> ckontros, sure
[14:20] <ckontros> ScottL: I'm wondering the plan regarding GNOME shell and Unity. I havent tried Studio 11.04. I assume you're on the normal panel setup. But am wondering the long-term plan. As I think it will be harder to stay with traditional panels.
[14:21] <ckontros> (as time goes on)
[14:22] <ScottL> ckontros, yeah, that is a concern and i'm not sure i have an answer at this point for a long term plan, but i am worried about it
[14:22] <ScottL> i've read (from jono's blog) that they will continue to offer gnome-panels though
[14:23] <ScottL> and we have already modified the code to default new users (including the one creating during installation) to "ubuntu classic desktop" aka gnome-panels
[14:23] <ScottL> when they integrate wayland, however, things may change unfortunately
[14:24] <ckontros> How so?
[14:24] <ScottL> i haven't read anything or heard anything, but i worry if they will be able to continue using gnome-panels under wayland
[14:24] <ckontros> GNOME shell, Unity and desktop UI development in general seem to be forcing, or at least nudging the singular app focus thing. Not so good for power users.
[14:25] <ScottL> i played with gnome3 just last night (fedora)...it appears to be the same singular app focus as well :(
[14:26] <ckontros> Well, there's always LXDE or XFCE. I was actually thinking about tinkering with a ubuntustudio-desktop-lxde package.
[14:26] <ckontros> But w/XFCE I'm unsure how they will deal with the GNOME3 changes. Or if it will even effect them.
[14:27] <ScottL> one of the guys helping the team (paultag) actually maintains fluxbuntu (i think that's the name) and i had considered that as well
[14:27] <ScottL> yeah, it's all so up in the air at the moment :/
[14:27] <ckontros> What about JoeJaxx? He's not doing Fluxbuntu anymore?
[14:27] <ScottL> i don't know...he doesn't say much in this channel...
[14:28] <ScottL> last time i saw something is when you poked him :P
[14:28] <ckontros> He's also a founding Studio member. (if you didnt remember or know)
[14:28] <ScottL> you had mentioned it before, specifically he did a lot of background work before you got involved...i believe this is what i was told
[14:30] <ckontros> ScottL: You got time now to brainstorm a little or you have things to do?
[14:30] <ScottL> i guess that i probably need to start investigating how xfce builds their images without using gnome
[14:30] <ScottL> not that we'll be using xfce necessarily, just that they differ from gnome
[14:30] <ScottL> ckontros, sure, now's fine...family is only just started to wake (and i've been awake for hours now :P )
[14:31] <ckontros> He. I was up late and got up early. ;) Brain wont shutdown. :)
[14:31] <ckontros> s/HE/Ha
[14:32] <ckontros> ScottL: So what needs do you imaging wouldnt be met by XFCE or LXDE? (LXDE is where I would lean towards as its lighter)
[14:33] <ckontros> I'm also sure the Xubuntu guys would love to help if we switched to XFCE.
[14:34] <ScottL> i'm unsure the xfce saves *that* much memory from the last things i remember reading, but that was a year ago or so that i read that
[14:34] <ScottL> ckontros, i simply cannot imagine any needs not being met by using xfce or lxde
[14:34] <ScottL> i believe we only need a simple DE and windows manager
[14:35] <ckontros> I think Im gonna build a virtual image with LXDE as a base. See how well all our GTK apps integrate w/it.
[14:36] <ckontros> That's been my thing with other DEs. Modern GTK apps look like GTK1 without some tinkering.
[14:37] <ScottL> there would certainly be advantages with aligning with xfce, i.e. they handle all the integration with ubuntu ;)
[14:37] <ScottL> we could just handle tweaking for a/v then
[14:37] <ScottL> of course, there are other consideration to, well...consider
[14:39] <ckontros> Yeah. Using their seeds as a base would be easier. But long-term, I worry about GTK3 changes and how tightly GNOME-Shel is bound to them. I guess you'd have to look over the GNOME and XFCE mailing lists.
[14:42] <ScottL> i haven't played with xubuntu in a while, i think i'll also download the latest xubuntu beta image and see what it's like these days
[14:42] <ScottL> i had played with it while i was figuring out how to set gnome-panels as default xsessions, but that was alpha1 or something
[14:44] <ckontros> Pretty nice actually. I might end up going that route. Thunar is nice and all, but I just love Nautilus-Elementary. :P There's other little niggles but that was a release or two ago. Hell, I've been using a single AWN launcher for a while now.
[14:45] <ckontros> That might be a fun experiment. XFCE base with no panels and a single AWN panel on the bottom.
[14:47]  * ckontros starts a new VM. :P
[14:56] <ScottL> i think i'll also download a lxde version as well to explore it
[14:56] <ScottL> ckontros, i've considered awn panels before, but i want a tweak...
[14:57] <ScottL> it would be nice to have multiple instances (but ones you can quickly switch between) for particular work flows
[14:57] <ckontros> ScottL: For LXDE, I will most likely do a CLI install and build on that.
[14:57] <ScottL> one for recording audio, perhaps one for graphics, one for doing midi maybe
[14:58] <ScottL> "do a CLI install"... a server install?  if not, how do you do that?
[14:58] <ckontros> Well you can have multiple AWNs. Auto-hide certain ones. But wouldn't a traditional menu in AWN be cleaner?
[14:59] <ckontros> ScottL: Take and "Alt" installer disk. I think its F4 or ^ gives other options. One is a CLI only install.
[14:59] <ckontros> s/and/any
[14:59] <ckontros> Damn. s/^/6
[15:00] <ScottL> my thoughts were that "normal" pedestrian activities, say "gedit", would be in the traditional menu, but A/V tasks could be easy access with awn panel
[15:00] <ScottL> have a default one with the most commonly used apps to record music, make a video, etc
[15:01] <ScottL> but my thought was also to have a singular awn panel that could be "switched" between the different types of workflows
[15:01] <ScottL> of course this functionality doesn't exist currently as far as i know
[15:01] <ckontros> I *think* the same /could/ be accomplished with a "stacker" applet? Isnt there one where its like a mini-menu? Where there only apps you want in it.
[15:01] <ScottL> anyway, doesn'
[15:02] <ckontros> Hell. What am I doing. Ill just try. :P
[15:02] <ScottL> bleargh....anyway, doesn't matter at this point, was just thinking about things
[15:02] <ckontros> Sure sure.
[15:03] <ScottL> i keep a panel on the right with all my most common audio apps, i just though it would be nice to have context (or subject) sensitive panels that could be "selected" so that they don't have to be on all sides, and you could select the tasks you are currently doing and those apps would be visible in the panel
[15:03] <ckontros> Ahh... The "stacks" app is access to folders. You know, if we talked with them, I'm sure someone in the AWN camp would code us up something.
[15:04] <ScottL> pehaps even on of the icons in the panel could be the "switcher"
[15:04] <ScottL> ckontros, i had thought about that, but it's just *another* thing on a long list of things to do :/
[15:04] <ScottL> thought about it = talking to AWN about it
[15:05] <ckontros> Well I could head up the effort. *If* things went in that direction.
[15:06] <ckontros> But its all gotta start somewhere. :) Chat->Experiment->Implementation. :P
[15:06] <ScottL> lol, very true
[15:08] <ckontros> In any case, I'm gonna experiment with a minimal XFCE w/AWN and see how that works.
[15:09] <ScottL> the CLI install sounds interesting, kinda like a chroot environment in that it is probably as minimal as it gets without actually doing a chroot environment
[15:10] <ckontros> ScottL: Its awesome actually. It's how I used to build my desktop. Did a CLI install then had a script to install just the stuff I wanted. But with tons of HD space and RAM it became a little pointless.
[15:12] <ScottL> yeah, i think even within studio large HDs and cheap RAM has changed paradigms quite a bit
[15:13] <ScottL> like using network-manager, i don't think it has the impact it used to with a more minimal system
[15:13] <ScottL> by 'minimal system' i mean hardware, not what is installed
[15:14] <ckontros> SUre.
[15:16] <ScottL> but i also recognize that not everyone has a dual-core machine with 4+ gigs of memory too :P
[15:16] <ckontros> Yep. :)
[15:17]  * ckontros starts his initial test install.
[15:17] <ckontros> Interesting AWN menu: www.webupd8.org/2010/07/how-to-use-cardapio-menu-with-docky-and.html
[15:19] <ckontros> ScottL: So how's other things? You get any new folks helping or stepping up?
[15:21] <ckontros> Seems getting the site spruced up is still an issue.
[15:22] <ScottL> ckontros, yeah, paul and ailo. have been helping with updating -controls, which needs a complete overhaul
[15:22] <ScottL> several people have been involved (with varying degrees) in the website update, which maybe is picking up steam again
[15:23] <ScottL> unfortunately i was relying on stochastic to head the website update but he's been pretty MIA lately
[15:23] <ScottL> we overcame the unity implementation during natty
[15:23] <holstein> ScottL: there was a couple new volunteers though
[15:23] <ckontros> Seems to be his MO unfortunately.
[15:23] <holstein> kokito
[15:23] <ScottL> we refined the package selection during natty and will probably continue to do so
[15:24] <holstein> and ailo and paultag have been contributing :)
[15:24] <ckontros> Nice
[15:24] <ScottL> holstein, yeah, i have hopes for kokito since he did the haiku site and it looks pretty good :)
[15:24] <holstein> ScottL: you guys have talked right?
[15:24] <ckontros> Really? Nice.
[15:25] <ScottL> yeah, we seem to have reached critical mass (kinda) on testing and now people are starting to help in other, less immediately accessible areas
[15:25] <ScottL> ailo. has been doing mad testing with the kernels along with abogani's help
[15:25] <ckontros> cool.
[15:25] <ScottL> abogani and i are working on the -lowlatency kernel, i'll probably take over maintaining it with his help
[15:25] <ScottL> we're pushing to get -lowlatency into the repos, which has been a bit of a fight
[15:25] <ckontros> You gotta love Alessio. Is he doin' any better personally?
[15:26] <ScottL> apparently UKT was completely misinformed about what it takes to make a -lowlatency kernel
[15:26] <ScottL> they seemed to think it was like -rt where it takes an invasive patch instead of _just_ runtime compile flags
[15:26] <ckontros> They should know better.
[15:27] <ScottL> ckontros, i'm not sure about alessio's position
[15:27] <holstein> yeah, abogani is still kicking ass too :)
[15:28] <ScottL> but i think abogani wants to focus more on upstream kernel development instead of just within ubuntu
[15:28] <ckontros> I know he had it rough for a bit. Machine died. No internet access. Out of a job...
[15:28] <ScottL> which is why he wants someone else to maintain ubuntu studio kernels
[15:28] <holstein> and hopefully
[15:28] <holstein> we dont need what he was doing anyways
[15:28] <holstein> IF the -generic kernel gets to be totally appropriate
[15:28] <holstein> for RT
[15:28] <holstein> which could happen soon
[15:28]  * ckontros crosses fingers.
[15:28] <holstein> yup :)
[15:29] <ScottL> holstein, ailo seems to think that -generic still doesn't perform as consistently as -lowlatency though
[15:29] <holstein> im hoping by 12.04 we can just have a damn kernel that works
[15:29] <ScottL> but that is to be seen though
[15:29] <holstein> for everone
[15:29] <holstein> everyone*
[15:29] <holstein> ScottL: yeah, i dont think its there yet
[15:29] <ckontros> Is this the site kokito did? haiku-os.org
[15:29] <holstein> ckontros: maybe he said 'theme'
[15:30] <holstein> either way
[15:30] <holstein> he's resposible for the look of it
[15:30] <holstein> and its slick
[15:30] <holstein> i remember really liking the look and layout of the site
[15:30] <holstein> for the most part
[15:30] <ckontros> sure
[15:30] <holstein> its challenging to so a site for a project like that
[15:30] <holstein> and it *not* be busy
[15:32] <ScottL> ckontros, yes, i believe that was one of the sites he did
[15:32] <ScottL> he says he is very familiar with drupal 6
[15:33] <ckontros> Cool
[15:34] <ckontros> I love other "alt" OSs but damn. They're just never practical for me.
[15:35] <ckontros> I swear next year you'll see Android on desktops though.
[15:35] <holstein> maybe
[15:35] <ScottL> ckontros, so if we get someone (i.e. brain and kokito) to work up a good site we still need someone implement it on the site
[15:36] <ckontros> ScottL: You'll have to see what Canonical will host. We might have to pay for a host. (which isnt a big deal)
[15:37] <ckontros> I know they rarely update their Drupal.
[15:38] <ckontros> If it aint broke... kinda thing.
[15:38] <ScottL> i found out that we don't *have* to stay with drupal, many canonical web pages are now on wordpress, but we decided to stick with drupal since it's already implemented and people know it
[15:39] <ScottL> but i'll get the website updated even if i have to beg or bug someone to do it or help me do it
[15:39] <ScottL> but first we need a solid updated ebsite
[15:40] <ScottL> and i'm hoping kokito can galvanize that
[15:40] <holstein> ScottL: yeah, i feel like we can get that done
[15:40] <holstein> the move
[15:41] <ScottL> ckontros, holstein and i had been talking about moving to a live dvd
[15:42] <ScottL> if we moved to xubuntu we would have that as well
[15:42] <ScottL> edubuntu has been making some good imporovements with package installation during installation
[15:43]  * ScottL is going upstairs to play with latest xubujtu
[15:45] <ckontros> ScottL: My position on the Live disk is that it really wont showcase well the apps that need JACK or -RT but I can see going to it for a more friendly installer.
[15:45] <holstein> ckontros: BUT
[15:45] <holstein> how else can you fire up a disk
[15:45] <holstein> testing
[15:45] <holstein> and see if your device works with JACK?
[15:46] <ailo> ckontros, If Puredyne can do it, why not Ubuntu Studio?
[15:46] <holstein> most of what you need cant be installed into ram comfortably from the normal ubuntu live disc
[15:46] <holstein> AND the feel is different
[15:47] <ckontros> holstein: Oh sure. I get it. But at the start of the project it didnt make sense. Times change. Tech gets better. ;)
[15:48] <ckontros> You'll have to see if Canonical is willing to build a live DVD. The Alt disk might have to be dropped. I know space/bandwith is a concern for them.
[15:50] <ailo> I wonder what Ubuntu is planning for the future. It seems improbable to me that Unity will be the only Desktop.
[15:51] <ScottL> ckontros, dick macinnis has agreed to make a livedvd of natty studio when it is released
[15:52] <ckontros> ailo: From what I know from the folks I know there, it is. Unity will be the main UI with GNOME2 panels as a "classic" desktop.
[15:52] <ScottL> several of us (holstein, me, ailo i think) will probably test it so see what the performance is
[15:52] <ScottL> we realize it will not be the same as installed, but it makes a great calling card
[15:52] <ailo> ScottL, I highly doubt performance will be any different, though loading will be slower
[15:53] <ScottL> i have testimonial from people who say they routinely give out live cd's and thumbdrives of other a/v distributions but can't with studio
[15:53] <ailo> Or am I missing something?
[15:53] <ScottL> although they would like to
[15:54] <ailo> When running applications that aren't using the hard drive, I think performance should be the same
[15:54] <ScottL> ailo, i would expect performance to suffer *some* degradation at least because keeping everything in memory or having to dump to a page file
[15:54] <ckontros> ScottL: I would be leery of it not coming from the normal Canonical build system as there can be inconsistencies. Unforseen bugs. If its off of Natty and just for testing for now, sure. But an official release should come from us and Canonical. I could see axing the Alt disk.
[15:54] <ScottL> ckontros, yes, yes....if we move towards livedvd it would be an official build from canonical
[15:55] <ScottL> but mac's build would be a "community" supported item for the short term and mainly for testing with the devs
[15:55] <ailo> ScottL, The apps usually keep everything in memory anyway, during runtime, when you are not loading anything, just running.
[15:55] <holstein> sorry... had to do some phone-time :)
[15:55] <holstein> ckontros: cool
[15:55] <ScottL> ailo, well, but if you actually recorded something (say a .wav file in ardour) then that would start eating memory pretty quickly
[15:56] <ckontros> A "community" within a community. Sounds Inceptiony. :P
[15:56] <holstein> yeah, the way i usually put it is, ubuntustudio is the *only* audio distro that does not have a live-CD
[15:56] <ScottL> so perhaps we need a stricter definition of "performance" ;)
[15:56] <holstein> or proper kernel out of the box ;)
[15:56] <ailo> ScottL, That is true, but in this case you would either use an external disk drive, or the internal drive for saving the data. Recording to ram doesn't make much sense
[15:56] <holstein> BUT, i get the concerns you wer voicing too
[15:56] <ScottL> holstein, well, that's part of the limitation of working within canonical/ubuntu, but there are positives from it as well
[15:57] <holstein> and we should make sure that this is what we want in the long-term
[15:57] <ScottL> and currently i would say the plusses outway the minuses
[15:57] <holstein> having a live installer also simplifies installing from USB sticks
[15:57] <ScottL> although that balance seems to be shifting to more minuses lately
[15:57] <ckontros> ScottL: Such as?
[15:58] <holstein> and, depending on how you look at it, either removes the task-selection options, or unifies the installation process
[15:58] <ScottL> ckontros, as we discussed, the move to unity and wayland, it just adds more complexity to this project
[15:58] <ScottL> ckontros, and some existing things as the kernel
[15:59] <ckontros> Oh, Oh.
[15:59] <ScottL> ckontros, and some would argue the seemingly intentional obfuscation by the UKT
[15:59] <holstein> yeah, we cant just pop a kernel that we need in
[15:59] <holstein> and again, its a valid system
[15:59] <holstein> the UKT has a large overall goal that may or may not jive with our goal
[15:59] <holstein> but, we have to follow the larger ubuntu goals
[15:59] <ailo> With -rt it was different. With -lowlatency there is no real problems, right?
[16:00] <ckontros> ScottL: Really, UKT should matter at all. MOTU are just timid about putting in a kernel.
[16:00] <ScottL> ckontros, well, persia doesn't appear to be that timid :P
[16:01] <ckontros> And Universe is where it would land anyway so MOTU have jurisdiction anyway.
[16:01] <ScottL> he's seemed quite cavalier almost to do this, and damn the consequences :)
[16:01] <ailo> If someone can tune the -generic so it is 100% reliable for audio, then fine, we don't need anything else. During Natty development the performance has been going up and down, and it doesn't seem to be all about the kernel. There's something else doing that. -lowlatency, however has been stable throughout this period
[16:01] <ckontros> persia rocks but he's just 1 guy. (though he does the work of 10) ;)
[16:02] <ScottL> ailo, i wonder also about what tinkering the -desktop people are doing and what we have running underneath like bluetooth that might degrade performance
[16:02] <ScottL> but i'm pretty ignorant about this stuff
[16:03] <ckontros> We can always turn it off by default. SHould just be some session options.
[16:03] <ailo> ScottL, Exactly. I think that's what's doing it. But, I prefer the -lowlatency. This way, the Desktop doesn't need to change in order for the user to get high performance
[16:04] <ailo> With -lowlatency, all you need is realtime privilege. The performance is at least for me identical on Ubuntu Studio and Vanilla Ubuntu desktops.
[16:04] <ailo> The only difference is that Vanilla Ubuntu uses a bit more memory
[16:05] <ScottL> ailo do you understand the proposed changes for the -generic kernel that would allow irq conflict resolution?  if so, please explain
[16:06] <ailo> ScottL, I don't. I am assuming we get a way to give audio cards higher irq priority, but I don't know how that works
[16:08] <ailo> ScottL, I'm assuming the mechanism is the same as on -rt. Not much has been spoken about that it seems.
[16:15] <ckontros> Damn. XFCE in like GNOME where it doesn't wanna let you remove the last panel. :\
[16:17] <ckontros> Hmm... I bet there's still a way to remove xfce4-panel from the session.
[16:17] <ailo> I've been using XFCE on Puredyne, and it is not bad, though I've had some problems. On one machine the fonts were supersized, something that did not happen with Ubuntu and Gnome. Overall, I must say, I prefer Gnome, and to me Gnome 3 is looking pretty nice. 
[16:19] <ailo> I would rather instead have a second Ubuntu Studio desktop for low end machines, like XFCE. But, use Gnome as the main desktop system. I'm wondering if not Ubuntu will have the Gnome 3 classic desktop as an alternative to Unity. Or is there really no need for Ubuntu to use that?
[16:19] <ckontros> ailo: As do I, but if you read back, I'm concerned about the "single-focused-app" direction alot of UI development has taken. Hence the discussion w/ScottL about alternatives.
[16:22] <ailo> ckontros, I suppose it's good to try the alternatives. But, what direction should Ubuntu Studio take in the long run? 
[16:22] <ckontros> ailo: Because Studio traditionally has had limited resources, maintaining multiple versions of Studio (ie: a XFCE or KDE edition) wasn't in the cards. I don't see that changing soon. GNOME-Shell and Unity arent for a power-user distro like Studio IMO and alternatives should be looked at so a future stable direction can be mapped out.
[16:24] <ailo> ckontros, I don't know how Gnome-shell is integrated into Gnome 3, but after testing Gnome 3 quickly, I get the feeling they're still providing the same desktop as before, with Gnome-Shell as an alternative.
[16:26] <ckontros> ailo: I hope so for XFCE's sake but from what I've read last couple months it seems that GNOME-Shell is (or for now at least) tightly wound into GNOME3. Even if its not, I doubt that GNOME providing GNOME-Shell along side the traditional panel setup will last long.
[16:26] <ckontros> At some point they will cut the chord.
[16:28] <ScottL> apparently i didn't download the live daily for xubuntu :P
[16:29]  * ckontros grabbed the 10.10 Alt disk. ;)
[16:30] <ScottL> ckontros, i agree, at some point they will stop supporting the other desktop, i don't think there is any reason for them to continue ad infinitum
[16:37] <ailo> Maybe we should find out more about what direction Ubuntu wants to take, what direction Gnome will take and so on. I suppose these next few releases will introduce something new each time.
[16:39] <ailo> I wouldn't mind Ubuntu Studio to be on the forefront of new desktop technology, as long as it performs well and the UI is easy to manage. There are other audio distros that will work better on low end machines.
[16:40] <ckontros> ailo: Well it really comes down to user testing and their experiences with this single-app-focus direction. Personally, I don't think it fits Studio but that's ultimately Scotts call.
[16:45] <ckontros> ScottL: Ok. I can get XFCE to startup without panels and a single AWN. I'll keep tinkering.
[16:46] <ailo> I wonder what distro will include Gnome 3 first? Fedora 15?
[16:46] <ckontros> Or Foresight.
[16:49] <ckontros> bbl
[16:54] <ailo> I'm going to try out gnome 3. It seems Fedora 15 is including it. Alpha 1 is out. 
[17:00] <ScottL> heh, cory is awesome :P
[17:01] <ScottL> ailo, i played with fedora with gnome 3 last night
[17:01] <ScottL> it's kinda crazy with the single app focus, but it looks good though
[17:12] <ScottL> hi again ckontros , i saw your comment about xfce, single panel, and awn
[17:13] <ckontros> ScottL: Ok. I grabbed the Studio themes. Only thing missing is a way to set a good looking titlebar. Everything else applies.
[17:18] <ckontros> But that stuff can be worked out later. Preliminarily, it looks like XFCE would work as a GNOME replacement. Making a live test disk with minimal apps just to test the UI might be a thing to do after 11.04 is released.
[17:20] <ckontros> Oddly, seems like alot of the GNOME stuff is in this current Xubuntu. ie: GNOMES theme manager? Odd.
[17:21] <ckontros> And Nautilus? Wait. Somethings up.
[17:21]  * ckontros wonder if AWN depended or recommended Nautilus.
[17:36] <ckontros> ScottL: http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/6728/screenshotoof.png Well, there you have it. It /can/ work. Would need a little more tinkering. All easy I think. UI always has been. Would just have to see how to set things up by default. Going the LXDE route would be more complicated as Xubuntu already has a base.
[17:37] <ScottL> sorry, been upstairs playing with xubuntu live cd ckontros 
[17:38] <ckontros> np man. :)
[17:38] <ScottL> the image is cool :)
[17:38] <ScottL> xubuntu has a top panel with the awn panel at the bottom, but the awn panel is hidden by default
[17:39] <ckontros> ScottL: If you go this XFCE/AWN route, I can come on board to help head up the change.
[17:39] <ckontros> ScottL: When did Xubuntu do that? (my pic is custom) In X* 10.10 there's 2 panels.
[17:40] <ScottL> ckontros, it's the natty 11.04 latest live daily
[17:40] <ckontros> Oh wow.
[17:40]  * ckontros looks for screenshots.
[17:40] <ckontros> If you go this route, I'd kill the top panel totally.
[17:41] <ckontros> http://www.webupd8.org/2011/01/xubuntu-1104-to-get-new-default-theme.html
[17:43] <ScottL> ckontros, yes, that screen is representative of the daily live cd
[17:43] <ScottL> but if we got rid of the top panel, how would we switch between apps?
[17:44] <ckontros> AWN has a window list/taskmanager.
[17:45] <ckontros> In my screenshot, its the middle 3 icons.
[17:45] <ckontros> (though GIMP wanst active)
[17:48] <ScottL> checking screenshot again
[17:48] <ScottL> yeah, and i see the menu icon as well
[17:49] <ckontros> There's pretty mus an applet for anything in a panel. (though i dont dig most clocks)
[17:49] <ckontros> *much
[17:49] <ScottL> if we did go this route, then yes it would be awesome if you could help wit the change
[17:50] <ckontros> ScottL: Just mull it over. I know there's still 11.04 to send off. So contact me when you want me active. I'll re-join whatever lists and start some BZR branches to make changes in.
[17:50] <ckontros> Reach out to Xubuntu and so-forth.
[17:58] <ScottL> that would be cool, we're having a meeting tomorrow morning, we'll discuss the future direction also
[18:00] <ScottL> i'm probably showing my ignorance, but i wonder how wayland will affect xfce
[18:03] <ckontros> ScottL: What time?
[18:08] <ScottL> ckontros, this is latest xubuntu:  http://imagebin.org/146291
[18:08] <ScottL> ckontros, tomorrow at 10:00 EST
[18:09]  * ScottL is checking email for schedule
[18:10] <ScottL> yes, 10 eastern
[18:10] <ckontros> AM?
[18:11] <ckontros> ScottL: IMO, it would be slick to just have a panel. :) But the screenshot is nice.
[18:12] <ScottL> ckontros, yes, am
[18:12] <ckontros> k
[18:13] <ckontros> Ill try to make it. (gotta see if the wife has plans) Im gonna go for a bit.
[18:16] <ScottL> rock on man
[18:17] <ckontros> \m/