shaunothis made me giggle.  poor, poor windows mobile00:02
hamitronis it actually that bad? ;/00:04
shaunono idea, I'm not aware of anyone who's paid for it yet.  but that's actually a legit flyer from a retailer :/00:05
hamitronwp7 does have a few advantages00:06
hamitronwell, at least 100:06
hamitronno, 2 I can think off00:06
shaunoexchange integration, apparently ;)00:06
hamitronthat isn't one ;/00:07
hamitronimo it will be better for developers, a more generic platform to target.... unlike android00:07
hamitronplus, I suspect so few people will get it, not many virus will be written to exploit it00:08
BigRedSI've heard a few people say good things having used win mobile 700:10
BigRedSit does sounds quite interesting00:10
hamitronI would be tempted, if I was in the market for a smart phone00:10
hamitronwindows 7 for pc does actually feel good00:11
hamitronMS have actually impressed me for once00:11
shaunohaven't tried it yet :/00:12
hamitronI pre-ordered it, got a retail copy for 45 quid00:12
hamitronI didn't want to at the time, was hoping wine would improve faster00:13
hamitronbut I was just overly optimistic00:13
hamitronso now I've decided, gonna just run most stuff natively00:14
hamitronlinux is better for work, windows is better for games00:14
hamitrontalking of games, gonna install my entire collection on steam00:22
shaunoheh.  that's one thing I'm not so much looking forward to with new laptop00:23
shaunolong & boring download00:23
hamitronoh, I backed up the downloads on my fileserver00:24
hamitroncan't be downloading 70Gb too often00:24
shaunoanyhow, back in a while.  rebooting to take a crack at gnome3's livecd, because I haven't even peeked at gnome-shell yet00:24
hamitronokies :00:24
hamitronI still have cravings for gnome 1.x :/00:25
penguin42wth does Google have an ice cream sundae as it's logo today?01:06
shaunoit's sunday \o/  ?01:07
hamitronthey like to spend money wisely, offering different logo images to attract idiots...errrrr customers01:07
shaunoI appear to have done horrible, horrible things to my filesystem :D01:23
BigRedSthat's a good thing?01:25
shaunono, not really01:25
BigRedSAh, I suspected as much :(01:28
shaunodone a pretty good job of it this time tho.  EFI just hangs when it tries to read the partition table01:28
BigRedSOh. That is rather horrible01:28
BigRedSYou've just put me off doing a dist-upgrade on the fileserver at my dad's01:28
BigRedSwell, starting it now and going to bed01:28
shaunothis thing's always refused to boot from usb, and my dvd drive got destroyed by someone's demonspawn a few years back01:29
shaunoso I thought I'd try dd'ing an iso to a spare partition01:29
shaunojust on the off chance that it'd pick it up as a bootable fs01:29
shaunoapple have been bitten by the oldest curse.  we just keep making better idiots :D01:30
BigRedSyeah, I've tried that sort of thing once. It doesn't :(01:30
shaunohm.  I don't appear to have an external caddy that'll take sata01:31
shaunoI think for now, bed, and pick up a caddy from work tomorrow.  if I keep at this, chances are I'll just fluff her laptop too01:34
BigRedSbah. usb/sata things are invaluable01:34
shaunogot a really handy firewire one, but it's only ide.  I should update that one of these eons01:34
* hamitron lacks usb toys01:35
hamitrongot an internal sata hd caddy though01:35
BigRedShaha, yeah. my sata one is one of the ide ones with sata sort of tacked on as an afterthought01:36
BigRedSanyway, I'm falling asleep here, so I should probably go and do that in a bed...01:36
d3ngarHi there01:57
d3ngarI can't connect to the computers within a VPN connection: that said, I can ping both computers from the host, but the two computers can't see one another. They both see the host though01:58
d3ngarI think it's a routing problem, only I know nothing about it01:59
d3ngarAny help?01:59
emisn't it ridiculously late in the uk ?02:00
hamitroni dunno I'm afraid, can wait around and see if anyone is still awake02:00
hamitronor try #ubuntu02:00
d3ngarI might02:00
hamitronan hour a go I may have researched02:01
hamitronbut I'd be a liability now I am tired (even more than normal)02:01
HazRPGDaviey: you haz sage?03:08
HazRPGmorning all08:11
MartijnVdScompiz seems to "forget" some windows08:14
MartijnVdSso they disappear (app is still running)08:14
MartijnVdSSwitching to metacity makes them show up again08:14
HazRPGMartijnVdS: \o/08:14
HazRPGthat's bad08:14
MartijnVdSI think it's but 71900108:14
HazRPGhmm, see I keep seeing metacity, what is it >_<08:14
MartijnVdSI think it's bug 71900108:14
lubotu3Launchpad bug 719001 in compiz (Ubuntu) "vim.gnome window is invisible" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/71900108:14
MartijnVdSHazRPG: metacity is "The" gnome window manager08:15
MartijnVdSHazRPG: (not 3D-accelerated)08:15
HazRPGah :)08:15
HazRPGcompiz is just the fancy effects :)08:15
MartijnVdSAnd a completely different window management "engine" underneath08:15
MartijnVdSThe metacity one is much more mature08:16
MartijnVdSHm. Sunday morning. Let's try XFCE :)08:16
HazRPGwhat's beryl (I think its called)08:16
HazRPGis that like a plugin to compiz08:16
HazRPGI recall seeing that like years ago when compiz was "new"08:17
MartijnVdSHazRPG: Beryl was a fork of compiz with even more flashy effects08:17
MartijnVdSit merged back into main compiz afaik08:17
AlanBellthe original compiz didn't accept contributions and was coded in private with occasional code drops08:20
HazRPGwonder if summer of code has anything interesting planned for this year08:20
MartijnVdSAlanBell: ah yes, along with XGL08:20
HazRPGAlanBell: morning :)08:20
AlanBellso it got forked and a large and active community quickly made beryl rather awesome, if a bit flaky08:20
AlanBellthen the compiz developers decided to do open source properly and they all made friends and lived happily ever after08:21
MartijnVdSNow compiz is still a bit flaky at times08:21
AlanBellit was called compiz-fusion for a while whilst re-merging08:21
MartijnVdSespecially if some company starts hacking its own stuff into it ;)08:21
AlanBellvery true08:22
MartijnVdSHas everyone seen the cool WebGL at http://bodybrowser.googlelabs.com/ ?08:22
HazRPGAlanBell: ah, that was going to be my next question... because I recall seeing compiz/beryl disappear and then compiz-fusion suddenly came on the scene08:22
MartijnVdS(it's still in April Fools mode, but you can click through to "normal" humans easily)08:22
HazRPGI must say, at the time, I was planning on integrating compiz to ubuntu when it was new, but got so confused as to how, and why there was beryl and compiz variations08:23
HazRPGMartijnVdS: I have :)08:23
HazRPGMartijnVdS: ah wait, I haven't seen the cow one... I've seen one of a human being08:24
MartijnVdSHazRPG: it does male and female now.. and cow 8-)08:24
HazRPGthe male and female was there originally :P (or at least female was)08:25
MartijnVdSfemale was, yes08:25
HazRPGI recall linking it in facebook :P08:25
MartijnVdSIt helped my mom tell the doctor which bit of her back was hurting :)08:25
HazRPGheh awesome08:26
=== AlanBell changed the topic of #ubuntu-uk to: Welcome to #ubuntu-uk! http://ubuntu-uk.org | This channel is publicly archived http://irclogs.ubuntu.com | Mailing List http://tinyurl.com/uukml | Support Guidelines http://tinyurl.com/uuksupport | Meeting 14th April 21:00 BST #ubuntu-uk-meeting http://tinyurl.com/uukmeet | Quiz: 16th April 21:00 | Happy Birthday Popey (he is very old)
AlanBellactually that is tomorrow08:32
AlanBellskype was lying to me08:33
HazRPGdo any of you guys integrate google calendar into evolution so that it shows up in the panels calendar?08:34
=== AlanBell changed the topic of #ubuntu-uk to: Welcome to #ubuntu-uk! http://ubuntu-uk.org | This channel is publicly archived http://irclogs.ubuntu.com | Mailing List http://tinyurl.com/uukml | Support Guidelines http://tinyurl.com/uuksupport | Meeting 14th April 21:00 BST #ubuntu-uk-meeting http://tinyurl.com/uukmeet | Quiz: 16th April 21:00 | Happy Birthday issyl0 (not very old)
HazRPGI've noticed that now it takes a while from clicking, to actually showing up since I've done that :(08:34
MartijnVdSHazRPG: I used to.. but I've reinstalled since08:35
MartijnVdSnever bothered to set it up again08:35
HazRPGright time for a quick nap been a long day ^_^08:57
HazRPGI think I might have converted another person to ubuntu last night :D08:57
HazRPGas always, I've installed ubuntu whilst in windows (wubi) so that they can have a play around with it and get to grips with it... yet fallback to windows if needs be08:58
HazRPG(Usually set ubuntu as the default options, and set the timer to 1min, that way they've got the option but at least it does actually encourage them to use ubuntu more often too)08:58
HazRPGhopefully if she likes it, I might get to geekify it (as she calls it) and change it over fully :)08:59
HazRPGshe was having a bit of trouble understanding the whole "no real virus" part of it09:00
HazRPGshe kept saying "I don't want to install dodgy software on it" and I told her she doesn't need to worry about most of that, as long as she uses the software centre09:00
AlanBellthere is a bug about dodgy software in the software centre09:01
HazRPGAlanBell: oh?09:01
AlanBelldifferent people have different thresholds of dodgyness09:01
HazRPGshe meant dodgy as in "random toolbars", "things that give you pop ups all the time", "viruses" etc09:02
HazRPGwhere her examples09:02
AlanBell!info pornview09:04
lubotu3pornview (source: pornview): Image and movie viewer/manager. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.2pre1-11ubuntu1 (maverick), package size 211 kB, installed size 624 kB09:04
AlanBellthere was a recent discussion about that one09:04
HazRPGwow that managed to get accepted onto the software centre!09:05
HazRPGI thought the repo was managed (sort of)09:05
BigRedSIt is managed...09:12
HazRPGBigRedS: I thought so09:21
HazRPGBigRedS: Did you manage to read through my post yet btw? Still awaiting some sort of feedback for it, since I know it worked on mine... however it might not on others (different configurations, etc) and want to make sure everything is outlined and easy to understand for all (that is my main goal with it)09:22
HazRPGI've probably mentioned a few times now, but I would like to (at some point) make some videos for doing all of these things I learn so that others can learn them too (blogging about them is the first step imo :))09:23
BigRedSHazRPG: nah, I meant to this weekend, but other things broke so I've been fixing them instead so far :(09:23
HazRPGBigRedS: ah, its no problem09:23
HazRPGhmmm... always worries me to see "Windows" show up in my site logs :/09:25
HazRPGesp. IE6 and WinNT409:25
HazRPG/2009/03/28/songbird/ seems to be a popular thread for some reason, and yet no one posts any comments or any rates... and they always seem to be windows users with old machines, old browsers... and also found trying other various directories that don't exist... it's a scary thought09:27
HazRPGhmm I didn't realise you could get Safari for Linux :/ (looking at logs with a keen eye)09:28
BigRedSI don't think you can. But it's trivial to change your user agent in firefox :)09:29
BigRedSwell, change your reported user agent09:29
HazRPGrofl, apparently a google search for "Me haz shiney..." pointed to my blog xD09:30
UnnheuluHow do I stop xchat from automatically joining this channel?09:30
HazRPGUnnheulu: What's wrong with this channel :(09:30
UnnheuluHazRPG, too many people talking :P09:31
HazRPGhmm, not really lol09:31
HazRPGnot as much as #ubuntu09:31
UnnheuluMore than #wesnoth or #xmot09:31
BigRedSer, it's buried somewhere in the preferences, I know I found it last time I used xchat09:31
BigRedSbut I've not got a ubuntu gui handy at the minute09:32
Unnheuluirssi? :P09:32
BigRedSYeah, this is irssi on debian, but debian's xchat is quite different from ubuntu's09:33
HazRPGI have have to change my robots.txt file09:34
BigRedSah, to avid being at that search term?09:35
BigRedSI wonder if there's a way to negate keywords09:35
HazRPGthat and I've never heard of Yandex until I saw it being crawled about a few hundred times on April 1st09:35
BigRedSthere does seem to be a weird multiplying of little search engines09:36
BigRedSwhich is nice09:36
HazRPGhow so?09:36
BigRedSwell, just the fact that people think they're bringing something unique along; implies at least some innovation's going on09:37
BigRedSeven if most of that innovation is probably "We're not as evil as the big guys"09:37
HazRPGheh good point09:37
HazRPGI must say, its interesting to see how my blog is actually being looked at now09:39
HazRPGI'm just use to seeing spiders and crawlers all the time, and on average 1-2 visits (a week)09:39
BigRedSyeah, i _very_ rarely see any visitors that aren't me. Though I don't think I've updated it in several months...09:40
BigRedSyou're on the planet aren't you?09:40
HazRPGI am now yeah09:40
BigRedSI image that'll get you a bunch more spiders and real-life hits09:40
HazRPGthat's where the Yandex came from I'm guessing09:40
HazRPGdaubers: morning :)09:42
BigRedSHm. I think I've just seen the world's shortest ad break. I didn't even have time to get up to go and make coffee, let alone make the coffee09:42
HazRPGBigRedS: what was it for?09:43
BigRedSThe ad was for TV on More4. I'm watching Scrapheap Challenge on More4 now.09:43
BigRedSit went to break, showed a single ad, then went back to the show09:43
HazRPGheh nice09:44
HazRPGyou know... I actually watched a BBC channelf for the first time in years, because my friend and I were talking about adverts - and he raised an interesting thought - for years I thought BBC had adverts just like any other channel, but it actually doesn't! The things they show are all just BBC related09:45
BigRedSah, I'm the opposite; nearly everything I watch is BBC09:46
HazRPGsame, but on iPlayer09:46
HazRPGand I raised the topic by saying "hmm, how come iPlayer never has any adverts on it?"09:46
BigRedSyeah; most of what I watch is catch-up-TV09:46
HazRPGand he just looked at me in that weird way he does... and point with both fingers shouting "because the BBC doesn't show adverts!"09:47
HazRPGI thought he was winding me up because it was april fools... but he's actually right09:48
HazRPGjust goes to show how the mind will just zone out when your use to it being done one way on other similar things that you just instantly assume all are the same09:49
BigRedShaha, yeah09:50
HazRPGalthough this is too early in the morning for psycho. bable :P09:50
HazRPGstill find it amazing09:50
BigRedSI just soaked myself in washing out the cafetiere09:51
BigRedSI think that's a pretty good indication that I need the coffee that's in it now :)09:51
HazRPGheh indeed09:51
HazRPG*lugs some coffee he made earlier*09:52
HazRPGhmm I should buy me a cafetiere...09:53
BigRedShah, speaking of adverts, this one's almost a documentary09:53
BigRedSyeah, cafetieres are handy. You make one coffee, get two cups :)09:53
BigRedSwell, two mugs. A 'cup' in coffee is tiny09:53
HazRPGmug = champion :)09:54
willy1977think I need coffee :p09:55
* daubers is reducing his caffeine intake, so no coffee this morning09:55
BigRedSI think I'm back down to decaff weekdays and caffeinated weekends09:56
HazRPGI don't see the point in that lol09:56
HazRPGwhat's so wrong with caffeine :)09:56
HazRPGbeats a pint any day09:57
BigRedSIt's fine normally, but it's easy to get to the point where there's a dependence on it09:57
BigRedSand at that point you need something stronger when 'just' a coffee doesn't wake you up09:57
HazRPGBigRedS: really?09:57
BigRedSalso, you get _really_ bad sleep when you drink that much coffee09:57
GaryI just cooked myself a lovely fry up, omnomnom09:58
BigRedSyeah, I used to drink ~6 cups a day, and at the weekends I was useless without at least two or three09:58
GaryI'm useless no matter how many I drink09:58
BigRedSit's weird, you go without caffeine for a few weeks, then have a coffee, and actually get that caffeine high!09:58
HazRPGsee I find coffee doesn't ever do anything for me, I just like the taste09:59
willy1977HazRPG: it's having more of a physiological effect than you think probably.10:00
daubersHazRPG: To see whats so bad with caffeine, don't have any for 3 days and watch the headaches, dizzyness and nausea wash over you :)10:00
daubersHazRPG: Your body will start chewing through it's salt reserves and energy reserves to try and make up the loss. It's not pleasant10:01
HazRPGdaubers: I've went from having caffeine almost every day ... to completely stopping for 6 weeks (since I hear that's how long it takes to get it out of your system) and I noticed no change10:01
daubersHazRPG: How many cups of coffee do you have a day?10:02
daubersDid you have in a day, rather :)10:02
GaryI try to only have four a day, stop drinking coffee after 2pm10:02
daubersI was on about 7 or 8 over the last month10:02
HazRPGdepends, sometimes 1 sometimes 10... I have no consistency with it, its just a "ooo... I think I'll make a coffee"10:02
GaryI was silly and had one at 10pm yesterday, I was like a hamster all night10:02
HazRPGhowever other caffeinated beverages I tend to drink more of, but like I said I've managed to go 6 weeks without (also, didn't have sugar, nor smoke in that time and instead drank cranberry - my other fav drink)... and no change10:04
HazRPGin fact, people started forcing me to drink some form of caffeine to calm me down because I'm usually very hyper by nature10:05
BigRedSmm, I notice no change when I stop the caffeine10:05
BigRedSit's when I have some again that I do. It suddenty has some noticeable, positive effect10:05
HazRPGBigRedS: only works if you stop for 6 weeks or more, depends how dependant your body has become to it... and how much you drink10:06
HazRPGmy friend said the doctor recommended he shouldn't have it for about 2 months to get it out of his system10:06
BigRedSyeah, that's the other thing, I only have two or three cups a day now10:07
HazRPGI know people who genuinely can't live without it though, and I find it hard to believe... but I've seen it happen, and its strange that it doesn't affect me in the same way (considering its almost part of my daily routine)10:08
BigRedSyeah, my dad can't really10:08
HazRPGheh my dad's the same10:08
BigRedShe has coffee before he goes to bed...10:08
HazRPGBigRedS: ... hmm I do!10:08
* daubers had to give up caffeine the first time when he went on antidepressants10:10
daubersThat time _really_ hurt!10:10
HazRPGI can imagine!10:11
daubersHazRPG: Also explains why it stops you being hyper, as caffeine is a natural depressant10:12
HazRPGdaubers: really?10:12
daubersHazRPG: So all the antidepressant books told me10:12
daubersHazRPG: same as alcohol10:12
HazRPGI'm always more cheery when I've had me some caffeine...10:13
daubersliving on the high :)10:13
HazRPGdaubers: oh I know alcohol is, reason I try to avoid the stuff10:13
daubersBefore the low kicks in10:13
HazRPGheh, usually fall asleep before the low kicks in10:13
HazRPGalso the reason why I find it daft how so many people drink alcohol in large quantities (based on medical quantities that's allowed per week), and wonder why they're always feeling down10:15
daubersheh :)10:15
daubersI try and be a bit careful about things with that kind of effect after previous experiences10:15
daubersOne of the reasons cake is so awesome is that after a sugar high you just feel tired10:16
HazRPGusually the words "but I feel confident, and good about myself, and etc" as excuses ... always amuses me no end, because people clearly have no idea how they act when pissed :P10:16
willy1977someone mention cake?10:16
HazRPGI heard cake o/10:16
HazRPGdaubers: chocolate cake is even better ;)10:17
willy1977chocolate coffee cake... :) ahem.10:17
HazRPGdaubers: all the lovelies of sugar, plus the nicity nice effects of coco ;)10:17
HazRPGwilly1977: omg that's the future!10:18
HazRPGor is it cocoa?10:18
HazRPGI know what I mean :)10:18
BigRedSHah, while I was redundant and unemployed I discovered a taste for chocolate coated coffee beans10:18
BigRedSthose are awesome10:18
willy1977HazRPG: a friend does a mean one but I'm like daubers (keep taking the pills :))10:18
HazRPGBigRedS: I shall have to look out for that :P10:19
HazRPGwilly1977: ah10:19
HazRPGso are you not allowed to have caffeine at all? Or just really small quantities?10:20
GaryI got so drunk last night at a friends, woke up at 2am on their sofa!10:20
willy1977HazRPG: I think it's more just recommendations...10:20
Garycan't remember falling asleep, but they'd covered me in a blanket!  awww10:20
HazRPGGary: hehe10:20
willy1977Gary: been there man ;) or you wake up with a coat over you :p10:21
Garythe sofa was not that comfy, so I waddled home10:21
HazRPGGary: don't think I would get off so lightly around my friends... I'd probably get covered in sharpie drawings, or worse10:21
GaryHazRPG: I did check once I got home10:21
HazRPGGary: haha10:21
GaryI did expect to have a giant penis drawn on my forehead10:22
HazRPGI know one of my friends walks around with a sharpie in his pocket at all times10:22
Garyscary friends10:22
Garyfunny enough, no headache this morning10:22
HazRPG\o/ always a bonus!10:22
Myrttihm, that was nice10:23
Myrttihad my first ever passionfruit10:23
willy1977passionfruit is nice ;)10:23
HazRPGcan't say I've ever had that before10:24
HazRPGalthough I wouldn't be surprised if I had inside some form of tropical drink or tropical cocktail at some poitn10:24
HazRPGseems another one of my friends wants an ubuntu-laptop conversion done10:26
* HazRPG think I'm in the wrong line of business here10:26
willy1977HazRPG: nice!10:27
HazRPGmaybe I should change from freelance web developer to freelance techie support lol10:27
BigRedSproblem with tech support is that you need to always be available10:29
HazRPGBigRedS: I'm a freelancer ... lol10:29
BigRedSsince you need to respond quickly, rather tha dev work where you can mostly work to your own schedule10:29
willy1977nah... BigRedS10:29
willy1977just say you're support is available 23/710:29
HazRPGBigRedS: i usually answer phone calls to "computer... broken down!"10:30
willy1977then if anyone can't get in touch you can say you were on your hours break :p10:30
BigRedShaha, and don't define that lone '1' :)10:30
willy1977you got it ;)10:30
BigRedSI was just thinking if you're knee deep in one customer's problem and then another rings saying they're getting no mail and they need it fixed now10:30
BigRedSI suppose just pick the customers who wont do that :)10:31
willy1977BigRedS: there are customers that wont?10:31
BigRedSwell, I imagine non-businesses are more willing to wait?10:31
BigRedSI'm not sure why that became a question...10:31
HazRPGBigRedS: most of the people I help usually say "ah just come over at some point in the week"10:32
willy1977yeah true BigRedS personal have to understand it's when you start charging peoples opinions change.10:32
willy1977but you know what business customers are like their problem is always the most important :)10:33
HazRPGwilly1977: business customers are usually the worst >_<10:33
HazRPG"email not working... fix it monkey man! Go Go Go!" comes to mind10:33
HazRPGbesides when I say techie support, I don't mean on-the-phone all day type techie support10:34
HazRPGI mean like a fix-it "here's my <device>" type techie support10:35
Myrttimoar tea :->10:35
HazRPGMyrtti: \o/10:35
dauberswilly1977: The no caffeine thing was a recomendation, the no alcohol thing was a firm "YOU MUST NOT" and I've seen people drink on AD's before and it's not pretty10:35
dauberswilly1977: Main reason I cut out caffeine was I was trying to shift my depression with diet changes while using the pills as a crutch10:36
* Gary tickles Myrtti 10:36
daubershowever! I haven't had any pills for nearly 2 years now :)10:36
willy1977daubers: yeah I avoid the booze now10:36
HazRPGdaubers: \o/10:36
HazRPGI've avoid booze since I started driving10:36
HazRPGI'll have one... (even if I'm not driving)... but that'll be all10:37
daubersHazRPG: That happens coincidentally with a lot of people :)10:37
willy1977daubers: nice work, I'm working my way down the doses hope to be off them soon, but may try and limit the caffeine and see what happens... :/10:37
HazRPGmainly because its hard to draw the line as to where the point of "is there alcohol left on my breath" or not10:37
* AlanBell has real coffee10:38
willy1977AlanBell: full fat coffee?10:38
HazRPGAlanBell: best kind of coffee10:38
dauberswilly1977: Make sure you eat relativley healthily too. I found walking a lot helped as well (physical exercise)10:38
AlanBellgot some beans ground up at starbucks and made a pot of filter coffee10:38
HazRPGdaubers: guessing my ubuntu stress ball doesn't count as exercise then :(10:38
BigRedSfull fat? That implies milk, ewww10:39
daubersHazRPG: Not quite... Wii Fit does :)10:39
HazRPGAlanBell: yum :)10:39
HazRPGAlanBell: I find starbucks coffee is so much nicer when made at home10:39
* daubers has a nice pot of English Breakfast leaf tea10:39
HazRPGdaubers: does help to reduce pains from RSI though :)10:39
willy1977daubers: yeah got that sussed - usually train for my triathlons around 6 times a week (some days 2 sessions) can't beat those endorphines10:39
daubersHazRPG: Yes, that it does!10:39
dauberswilly1977: \o/10:40
daubersalso, some of the people around here are amazingly helpful and supportive when you get stuck10:41
HazRPGI don't see the excitement over exercising... maybe my body is just wired wrong xD10:41
BigRedSit's quite fun when you're fit, less so when you're *getting* fit :(10:42
HazRPGdaubers: we geeks gotta stick together ya know :)10:42
willy1977HazRPG: nah, believe me I was the anti-excerciser about 1.5 years ago... BigRedS has hit the nail on the head.10:42
HazRPGBigRedS: true... I use to be in a basketball team at one point, still never saw how people got their kicks out of it... it was fun to do, but that was all lol10:43
Laneybeing fun isn't enough?10:43
HazRPGLaney: ...well it is, until someone points out that they enjoy doing it and they're getting a kick out of it and I don't see the same effects lol10:45
BigRedSsurely they just enjoy it being fun?10:45
* BigRedS is confused10:45
HazRPGsome people can be a bit more descriptive about it than that lol - trying to keep language and content to a more family nature10:46
HazRPGLaney: my reactions each time!10:46
d3ngarHi there, I came back with the problem from last night:10:49
d3ngarI want to create a VPN network between my home server and two clients.10:50
d3ngarI can connect with both clients fine and the clients can be pinged from the server. The clients can also ping the server, but unfortunately not each other10:51
d3ngarI think it's a routing problem at the server side, but I don't know how to fix it10:51
d3ngarAny help is much appreciated10:51
BigRedSI suspect the server is unaware that it is supposed to be routing data between the two hosts10:52
HazRPGI think this might have to be my next project... I've used VPN's before... but I've never set one up...10:52
BigRedSI can't help on how to tell it to, though :(10:52
HazRPG*formulates some ideas for blog*10:53
HazRPGhmm, that's a ring back about them being read for me to go round...10:54
HazRPG*goes to gather his ubuntu-installing gear and testing devices*10:54
HazRPGalways good to go prepared right?10:54
willy1977d3ngar: I guess the first thing I'd be looking at is are there any firewalls running on the clients?10:55
d3ngarwilly1977: No, no firewalls10:55
willy1977all linux?10:56
HazRPGd3ngar: don't forget firewalls on routers, check your forwarding the correct ports etc10:56
HazRPGd3ngar: are you using a separate IP range for the VPN to the rest of the network?10:57
d3ngarHazRPG: Routers? Isn't it that the clients should be able to ping one another cause they are getting an IP from the VPN server?10:57
d3ngarNo, I do not10:57
d3ngarI use the same IP range10:57
d3ngarThe VPN server is behind the BT Home Hub10:58
BigRedSd3ngar: only if you've told the VPN server to route packets between them10:58
d3ngarBigRedS: My saying! How would I go about this?10:58
willy1977wouldn't they better off all just accessing one network? or have I missed something?10:58
BigRedSAha, I don't know :( Are you using OpenVPN?10:58
BigRedS'cause I've just stumbled across this: http://www.grc.com/vpn/routing.htm10:59
BigRedS(it's amusing how other people's problems are always more interesting than your own :)  )10:59
HazRPGwilly1977: if he's using a VPN I'm guessing the other machines are at remote locations10:59
d3ngarI use the pptpd stuff that comes with Ubuntu10:59
willy1977ok but I just don't understand how they're all behind the same router?11:00
HazRPGBigRedS: (i know right!)11:00
d3ngarThey are not in the same network11:00
d3ngarI keep them in another network to make sure that this works okay11:01
willy1977got it, before they go to remote locations of course...11:01
d3ngarWeirdly enough, the computers in behind the BT Home Hub can't ping one another11:01
HazRPGd3ngar: hmm, that is odd11:01
d3ngarBut I assume that's an issue with this rubbish BT equipment and shouldn't really matter for the VPN, right?11:02
HazRPGd3ngar: might be worth checking the model number of the BT Home Hub to see if that's an issue, or if ping packets are disabled11:02
BigRedSif the VPN is between the hosts, the ping behaviour of the home hub shouldn't come into it11:03
d3ngarBut the router never registers the VPN clients as connected11:03
BigRedSit just sees an encrpted stream11:03
* BigRedS hasn't been paying attention, admittedlyt11:03
HazRPGah ok11:03
d3ngarSo how can I make the server link the clients to one another?11:03
d3ngarIt's strange...11:03
willy1977ok, I'm going to step back here afraid I don't enough about it... :/11:04
HazRPGI can honestly say I've used them, but I've never configured them11:04
HazRPGd3ngar: right, quick question... how are the IP's being assigned? That might be the route of the problems (just a thought)11:05
d3ngarThe pptpd config has a range that it assigns11:05
d3ngarSo the first VPN client gets
d3ngarThe next 25111:06
d3ngarand so on11:06
HazRPGd3ngar: did you say that the machines inside the BT Home Hub network can't ping each other either?11:07
d3ngarNo, they can't11:07
d3ngarWell, I can ping one computer11:07
willy1977can the server ping each of it's clients?11:08
HazRPGseems like something is killing the ping packets internally somehow11:08
* willy1977 couldn't help himself11:08
d3ngarAll computers can ping this one11:08
d3ngarBut they can't ping one another11:08
d3ngarit's not on the DMZ or anything11:08
d3ngarThe server can ping the clients11:08
d3ngarBoth of them11:08
d3ngarNo problems11:08
HazRPGcan't the server ping other things inside the internal network is what I mean11:08
d3ngarThe server can not ping other computers in the domain11:09
HazRPGhmm, something internally is the problem them11:09
HazRPGhow is the internal network setup?11:09
HazRPGI'm guessing the router is the DHCP11:10
HazRPGbut I mean, do the other computer rely on the server for anything?11:10
HazRPGfileserver, etc11:10
d3ngarYes, the BT Home Hub is a DHCP server and every computer, save the server, connects wirelessly11:10
d3ngarYes, the VPN server is also a file server11:11
d3ngarAnd SSH and that stuff11:11
d3ngarI am confused as to why the computers can't ping one another11:12
HazRPGseems your router is the issue then11:13
willy1977I've missed something again - wouldn't they all default to using the wireless connection to the hub?11:14
d3ngarSo fix this first and then see if the VPN mystically works?11:14
HazRPGif everything (other than the server) is connected wirelessly, seems your router is dropping packets for some reason11:14
willy1977it's not unusual for home routers to have the ping functionality turned off...11:14
HazRPGsince your server can see the other machines... the VPN seems fine11:14
BigRedShang on, are these three hosts all in the same physical private network, and you're also putting them in a VPN?11:15
d3ngarBut why then can't to VPN clients see one another?11:15
d3ngarThere are a few computers here11:15
BigRedSoh, I'll go back and reread :)11:15
HazRPGhowever when your VPN tries to ping each other, the way it works is... it goes to the server, the server asks the router since it is the DHCP client where the other machines are... but it seems the router is dropping them11:15
d3ngarTwo are in an external network - through my mobile phone11:15
willy1977BigRedS: you're not alone that's what I thought was going on...11:15
BigRedSHazRPG: the router probably isn't the DHCP server for the VPN11:15
BigRedSthe VPN server is11:15
d3ngarThree others are in the BT Home Hubs11:16
willy1977d3ngar: ok that's clarified...11:16
willy1977don't mobile phone's block vpn traffic without paying an extra monthly charge?11:16
BigRedSif it isn't, it probably should be. The router's the DHCP server for the physical network that contains the VPN server, but the VPN, being a different network, has a different DHCP server11:16
willy1977although if the server can see them... probably a moot point.11:17
HazRPGBigRedS: that might be true... however he's still using the same IP's as the internal network, which is probably why there's some conflict11:17
HazRPGIP range*11:17
BigRedSAh, that will confuse things11:18
d3ngarShould I change the IP range for the VPN?11:18
BigRedSeven if the software can cope with it, you'll confuse people that way11:18
willy1977right I'm going to have to get going otherwise Mrs W will be threatening nastiness.11:18
willy1977hopefully catch up later11:18
HazRPGso in theory, although the VPN has its own DHCP of sorts... the server is still bound by the internal DHCP too... and well it will be assuming that it needs to access that first (I could be wrong)11:18
willy1977d3ngar: hope you get it sorted11:19
d3ngarThanks willy11:19
HazRPGwilly1977: alright dude, catch you later11:19
BigRedSthe VPN server has two network interfaces. One is real, and has an IP address dictated by the home hub or whatever. The other is virtual (and on the VPN) and has whatever IP address you've given it.11:19
HazRPGd3ngar: okay, first things first... lets try and cancel some stuff out of the equation11:19
HazRPGd3ngar: change the range the VPN is using, that way the clients are reliant only on the server and nothing else, and see what happens then... if you can then ping each other... seems like the VPN is perfectly fine11:20
HazRPGif however you still can't ping, the problem lies elsewhere11:20
d3ngarThree minutes11:20
=== gary_ is now known as Guest72206
d3ngarWhat's a save range?11:21
MartijnVdSd3ngar: see RFC 191811:21
BigRedSyeah, 10.*.*.* and 192.168.*.*11:21
BigRedSuse for the VPN whichever of the two isn't the physical network11:22
MartijnVdSBigRedS: you can use separate subnets11:22
MartijnVdSBigRedS: (, etc.)11:22
BigRedSyeah, but for people-friendliness I like to use entirely different classes11:22
MartijnVdSBigRedS: same with
BigRedSwell, I like other people to11:22
Myrttihm. meh. I think I might be a bit allergic to fresh passionfruit :-(11:22
MartijnVdSalso, there's some space in 172.11:22
BigRedSI don't actually set up any VPNs, I just like IP addresses to be instantly recognisable11:22
Myrttithroat feels a bit funny after eating the second one11:23
HazRPGMyrtti: sup?11:23
Myrttiwhat a shame, it tasted lovely11:23
* daubers closes minecraft and goes to find his little switching hub11:24
HazRPGBigRedS: you'll be really confused when you start doing some IPv6 stuff then dude :P11:24
HazRPGBigRedS: I was at first :P11:24
BigRedSHazRPG: yeah, that's why I keep stopping11:24
HazRPGBigRedS: I highly recommend when your doing the IPv6 that once you've got it working, try and do some of the tests that H.E. have on IPv6 - and it will make your life so much easier11:24
MartijnVdSBigRedS: you'll be the last v4-only node on the internet?: )11:24
BigRedSI intend to get everyone else using ip6 so I can carry on using ip4 ranges :)11:24
BigRedSMartijnVdS: ha! Exactly!11:24
HazRPGright, I do really need to go otherwise my friend is going to wonder what's taking me so long, but I'll discuss it with him too and probably be logged back in when I get to his... he works at a school/college messing with networks all day long so he might have some more insight on the matter :)11:26
HazRPGalthough I highly recommend MartijnVdS's advice too :)11:26
d3ngarNo, even in a separate range, they can't ping each other11:29
PendulumMyrtti: it's pretty rare to have an allergic reaction to something the very first time you eat it :-/11:29
d3ngarWeirdly enough, it doesn't say "Destination Host Unreachable"11:30
d3ngarBut just simply doesn't do anything11:30
brobostigongood morning everyone.11:31
HazRPGd3ngar: still sounds like the router is doing some funny business to it11:31
HazRPGd3ngar: stopped this while I was looking for some stuff for you: http://www.computertrouble.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=474111:31
HazRPGright, really need to go... I'll bbl once I've gotten to his house11:32
brobostigongood morning HazRPG :)11:32
HazRPGbrobostigon: good morning dude :)11:32
brobostigonok, o/11:33
* HazRPG puts usb-key around neck11:33
d3ngarmmm, i think my router is yet another model from the one described in the post11:38
d3ngarI can edit the firewall routing, but I know little about it and the terms are a bit confusing11:38
d3ngarWAN for example would be the internet?11:39
d3ngarI'm just going to disable the firewall temporarily11:40
d3ngarThat just made no difference yet again :(11:41
brobostigonbbc have ditched click again, :(11:42
d3ngarI can't understand why I can't ping devices inside my own network11:42
d3ngarI'll drop as I will restart this router :(11:43
d3ngar__I can now ping clients within my own network12:01
d3ngar__Restarting the BT router did the job12:01
d3ngar__But the VPN still doesn't work properly :(12:02
d3ngar__Is there not a way to connect the two VPN IPs with each other?12:04
d3ngar__Client A to Client B?12:04
d3ngar__With a bridge or something?12:04
directhexthat's up to the network you're VPNing into to route12:05
d3ngar__But how???12:05
d3ngar__I'm close to crying :(12:05
d3ngar__How do I have to set-up my VPN to route this traffic?12:05
d3ngar__a bridge won't take of that?12:06
d3ngar__If for example I bridge ppp0 to ppp1?12:06
directhexdefine "my vpn". what exactly is "my vpn"?12:06
d3ngar__My VPN server12:06
d3ngar__It's here under my TV12:07
directhexrunning what?12:07
d3ngar__It's a Ubuntu pptpd VPN12:07
d3ngar__I just installed it through the package maintainer12:07
directhexokay, so pptp. you're assigning clients a bridged IP on your network? e.g. if a client connects to it, it gets an ip like
d3ngar__It gets an IP from the VPN server fine12:08
d3ngar__No problem12:08
d3ngar__The server can ping the client12:08
d3ngar__The client can ping the server12:08
d3ngar__The clients can't ping each other12:08
directhexthe client config is correct? a route is added?12:09
d3ngar__Exactly my saying...12:09
d3ngar__What would I have to do?12:09
d3ngar__I can add routes through the interface12:10
directhexi don't know about pptp, but with openvpn, there's a tickbox where you can ask it to add a route for that network only12:10
directhexthen check it with "route" in a terminal12:10
d3ngar__But what would I have to tell it for Address | Netmask | Gateway | and Metric12:11
directhexthe remote vpn server should offer a route12:11
d3ngar__How would that route look for example?12:11
directhexon the command line, a successful route would look how you expect12:13
d3ngar__The client gets a route for ppp0 -> | Gateway: | Genmask
d3ngar__That's not how I would expect it, but then again, I don't know how I should expect it to look12:14
directhexthat mask is the problem12:14
d3ngar__How I de-mask it and give it the right mask then?12:15
directhex255.255.255.255 is "this ip only"12:16
directhexyou want the whole 10.10.10 subnet, right? in which case you want
d3ngar__I thought as much12:16
d3ngar__But how to change it?12:17
directhexi don't know pptpd configuration12:17
directhexbut it's a server issu12:17
d3ngar__I have to go12:20
d3ngar__But I will probably be back on it this evening ;(12:20
d3ngar__Gotta get this sorted before tomorrow12:20
suprengro/ peeps12:52
suprengrTemperature: 10°C (50°F), Wind Direction: SW, Wind Speed: 10mph, Relative Humidity: 95%, Pressure: 1013mb, rising, Visibility: Very good... was the weather forecast also using PornView?12:52
suprengron a serious note: anyone around to explain the difference between "sudo rmmod kvm_intel && sudo rmmod kvm" and doing a modprobe -r ?12:55
BigRedSI think modprobe also unloads any modules depended upon by its argument, but rmmod only removed the module its passed12:57
BigRedSso likely nothing in the exact line above, except you'd only need to do 'modprobe -r kvm_intel' and it'd spot that 'kvm' is also not needed12:57
BigRedS*i think*12:57
suprengrthanks BigRedS12:58
BigRedSno probs! Like I say, though, I'm not certain of that12:59
suprengr...point taken12:59
suprengrthe ultimate question is... would modprobe -r be permanent? [as that is what I am trying to achieve] - without recompiling kernel13:01
MartijnVdSsuprengr: if you want it to be permanent, add it to the blacklist13:01
MartijnVdSBut why would you want to blacklist?13:01
MartijnVdSor unload13:01
suprengrwhy oh why oh whyh why didn't I think of that!13:01
suprengrcheers MartijnVdS13:02
MartijnVdSsuprengr: still.. no reason to not load modules usually13:02
suprengrMartijnVdS: it is stopping VirtualBox doing it's bit [usoing 10.04]. It complains about the KVM bit after every boot using rmod13:03
MartijnVdSuse kvm, not vbox :)13:03
BigRedSah yeah, that's one of those unusuals :)13:04
daubersbri and turkey sammich *nom* *nom* *nom*13:04
suprengrtried... preferred vb... I know - lazy!13:04
BigRedSyeah, I've ended up migrating to VB. Though now it says 'oracle' on it I'm thinking of moving all my VB VMs over to KVM...13:04
* suprengr is jealous of daubers13:05
suprengr[assuming he is noiming as well13:05
jonsainthi folks. when will firefox 4 be avaliable in the updates???13:06
BigRedSwhen you install 11.0413:06
BigRedSit'll never get into the mainstream updates for 10.1013:06
suprengrBigRedS:  you don't find it a pain then?  I know it's as fashionable to be a vb'er but after a long day's work... etc13:06
jonsaintcheers bigreds13:06
BigRedSyou can install through PPA if you want it quicker, Mozilla tend to maintain a PPA for it13:07
suprengr*not [as]13:07
BigRedSsuprengr: find KVM a pain? No, I used it before I used VirtualBox, so VB just seems really really easy. There's a gui Qemu config tool that makes it about as easy as vbox anyway13:08
suprengrBigRedS: ooh... didn't know that13:09
BigRedSjonsaint: yeah, it's like a personal repository, I'm sure there's a page on it in the ubuntu docs but I can't find it13:09
lubotu3A Personal Package Archive (PPA) can provide alternate software not normally available in the offical Ubuntu repositories - Looking for a PPA? See https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+ppas - WARNING: PPAs are unsupported third-party packages, and should be used at your own risk.13:09
BigRedSAha! there ^^13:09
BigRedSsuprengr: yeah, I can't remember what the one I used was called, though. There's a few in the repos13:10
jonsaintcheers all13:10
suprengrre jonsaint's question... wouldn't ununtuzilla be of use?13:10
suprengrjonsaint: don't use it until further opion received13:11
suprengr*opion [damn keyboard]13:12
suprengr*opinion [damn keyboard now beaten into submission]13:12
suprengrBigRedS: thanks. will go looking for it or similar13:14
suprengrBigRedS: thanks for the blacklist reminder!  used your blacklist option & now vb ok - now need to go hunt the kvm gui option. cheers13:40
MartijnVdSvirt-manager \o/13:40
suprengrstill considered experimental?13:42
suprengr[that was quoted from synaptic]13:43
brobostigonany other recommendations for making video dvd's, as bresaro just died on me.13:50
BigRedSk3b might do them?13:51
BigRedSit's KDE's brasero13:51
brobostigonlet me try, :)13:52
BigRedSit will pull in a big bunch of KDE if you've not already got them, might be wort looking for a more GTK one13:53
BigRedSI just always use K3b13:53
brobostigonis there something i am missing, it wont make a videocd from a mpeg4 file.14:01
brobostigonis mpeg4 not an understood format?14:07
MartijnVdSvideo cds use MPEG-114:08
MartijnVdSDVDs use MPEG-214:08
MartijnVdSHD-DVD and Blu-Ray use MPEG-414:08
brobostigonso i need to convert it to mpeg1?14:10
brobostigonok, easy, ffmpeg to the rescue.14:10
brobostigonMartijnVdS: thank you.14:10
MartijnVdSThere's svcd, which is mpeg214:10
MartijnVdS("super video-cd")14:10
brobostigonwhat is the difference?14:11
MartijnVdSmost players support it these days (DVD players have the MPEG-2 decoding bits anyway)14:11
MartijnVdSbrobostigon: it's MPEG-2, which gives more quality at similar bitrates14:11
MartijnVdSBecause of its 480x480 resolution, SVCD picture quality is more than double that of VCD. On the downside, this increase in picture resolution sacrifices video length capacity by over 50%. Because of this, titles released on SVCD has to come in twice the number of discs of their VCD equivalents. [1]14:11
brobostigonMartijnVdS: i think it will have to be mpeg2 then.14:11
MartijnVdSbrobostigon: why are you making a video-cd, not a DVD?14:11
MartijnVdSvideo cds are ancient tech14:12
brobostigonMartijnVdS: because i just tried bresaro, and it compained about the disc format.14:12
gordonjcpvideo cd14:12
MartijnVdSbrobostigon: how?14:12
gordonjcpjeez, that takes me back14:12
brobostigonMartijnVdS: it said, please put in a compatiblecd or dvd, please.14:12
MartijnVdSbrobostigon: i.e. an empty DVD disc14:13
brobostigonMartijnVdS: yes.14:13
* MartijnVdS tries14:14
brobostigonMartijnVdS: i could try it again, and convert said video to mpeg2,14:14
MartijnVdSbrobostigon: brasero offers to install "dvdauthor" when I put in an empty DVD+R and try to write some videos to disc14:15
MartijnVdSand it auto-converts to mpeg214:15
brobostigonMartijnVdS: let me see if i have that installed.14:15
brobostigonMartijnVdS: i didnt have dvdauthor installed here,14:16
brobostigonjust installed it.14:16
MartijnVdSbrobostigon: brasero offered to install it for me when I tried to do something dvdish14:16
brobostigonMartijnVdS: it didnt here, weird. i will try again.14:17
MartijnVdSbrobostigon: might be a natty feature14:17
brobostigonMartijnVdS: i am in natty aswell, maybe.14:18
gordonjcpI'm trying natty again14:19
gordonjcpI still can't get rid of the drop shadows14:19
gordonjcpI don't think I'll use natty, even when it comes out14:20
brobostigonbresaro is still saying, pleasereplace with a suppoted cd or dvd.14:21
gordonjcpanyone managed to get rid of the drop shadows in Unity?14:21
MartijnVdSbrobostigon: When? Before or after clicking "Burn"?14:22
brobostigonMartijnVdS: before, just after i added said mpeg4 file.14:22
MartijnVdSbrobostigon: did you insert any DVD/CD into your writer?14:23
brobostigonMartijnVdS: i dont understand youre question.14:24
MartijnVdSis there an empty disc of the correct type in your cd/dvd-writer?14:24
MartijnVdSAnd was it detected properly? (is it in the dropdown in brasero)14:25
brobostigonMartijnVdS: as far as i can tell,the burmer supports the dvd type i am using. and bresaro shows black dvd or like, next to the burn button, yes.14:26
MartijnVdSbrobostigon: there's a drop-down.. "Image file" or a disc with <x> hours free14:26
brobostigonMartijnVdS: the latter.14:26
MartijnVdSWhat does it say?14:27
MartijnVdS("Empty DVD-R disc, x.y GB free space"?)14:27
brobostigonblank dvd-rom disc: 1h 58 of free space14:28
MartijnVdSDoes the mp4 file play with totem?14:28
brobostigonplays in vlc fine, not tried totem.14:29
MartijnVdStry totem :)14:30
MartijnVdSyou might just be missing a gstreamer plugin14:30
brobostigonok,one moment.14:31
* daubers makes the tea14:34
=== bjwebb_ is now known as bjwebb
brobostigonMartijnVdS: totem plays said mpeg2 video fine.15:13
* suprengr has been checking stats: of questions asked v help given by self ... you good folks win by over 2:1.. even adding in help given on #ubuntu & #ubuntu-uk stats only get to a paultry 85%.15:47
* suprengr shrugs and says: thanks to all the good folks who offer more than I do or can.15:48
=== MattJ100 is now known as MattJ
brobostigon!info bombono natty16:13
lubotu3Package bombono does not exist in natty16:13
brobostigon!info bombono-dvd natty16:14
lubotu3bombono-dvd (source: bombono-dvd): DVD authoring program with nice and clean GUI. In component multiverse, is optional. Version 1.0.0-0ubuntu1 (natty), package size 895 kB, installed size 2288 kB16:14
brobostigonfinally managed to make a dvd-video with that.16:14
* brobostigon wipes his brow.16:14
suprengrwhoops please /s/"even adding in help given on #ubuntu & #ubuntu-uk stats"/"even adding in help given on #ubuntu & #ubuntu-beginners"16:15
HazRPGguessing d3ngar__ still hasn't had all his problems sorted out yet16:30
brobostigonHazRPG: what problems did he have, i wasnt following.16:31
bigcalm[eee]Hi peeps16:33
Pendulumhi bigcalm[eee]16:34
bigcalm[eee]Hey Pendulum, having a good weekend?16:35
Pendulumnot bad, ta.16:35
Pendulumit's sunny16:35
bigcalm[eee]Sun really does lift the spirits :)16:36
Pendulumalso I just took the powerchair for a spin and it's so nice when I can do that :)16:36
BigRedSbigcalm[eee]: pity it's owned by oracle now :(16:37
bigcalm[eee]Burn rubber and make some doughnuts?16:37
bigcalm[eee]BigRedS: sun is no more :(16:40
bigcalm[eee]Visiting Hayley's brother at hospital who is currently on a ventilator in the HDU. Lots of waiting as different family members take turns at his side. Brought my  eeepc, wish I'd have brought my laptop instead. hum ho16:44
bigcalm[eee]Oh, and USB tether FTW16:45
dwatkinsMy Eee is a little slow to be a proper machine, but it works well enough for IRC16:56
* BigRedS returns with cake and banana milk18:05
brobostigonhow do i reset ubuntu one, it isnt syncing properly.18:56
popeygood for troubleshooting18:59
brobostigoncheers popey18:59
brobostigonits weird, itssaying, its syncing 150+ files, when i havent even editing that many, and most have been prevousl fully synced.19:07
MartijnVdSpopey: Good thing I'm switching to XFCE I see.. with no "classic" gnome available19:40
MartijnVdSi.e. sane gnoem19:40
BigRedSheh. I've just found myself with Debian everywhere...19:42
* brobostigon shakes fist at ubuntu one.19:43
MartijnVdSBigRedS: I want firmware for my hardware.. so Debian isn't an option19:44
BigRedSit is, it's just a convoluted on :)19:44
MartijnVdSxubuntu is really nice19:45
BigRedSI do need to give xfce another go19:46
brobostigonthere are loads of ubuntu one bugs, that reflect not syncing and or not being able toadd machines. arghh..19:47
brobostigonnow ubuntu one seems to be trying to sync a file, i cant find that exists, but it thinks that does.20:08
popeyMartijnVdS: as I said elsewhere....20:12
popey18:33:23 <@popey> I suspect what shuttleworth means is we wont ship with Unity 3d and GNOME 2-panel 'classic' on the CD20:12
popey18:33:43 <@popey> But for 11.10 we will probably ship Unity 3d and Unity 2d (as the fallback for non-3d owning people)20:12
popey18:33:58 <@popey> it actually makes no sense to back Unity and actually ship something else on the CD20:13
popey18:34:11 <@popey> that would be like shipping a CD with GNOME and KDE on it "in case you don't like GNOME"20:13
popey18:35:05 <@popey> If you're betting your company/reputation/distro on Unity then it makes sense for both the 3d and 2d "desktop" to  y'know, _be_ Unity20:13
mattiHey ivanka20:14
AlanBellpopey: centos ships gnome and kde on a cd20:15
zleapwe have kubuntu for kde right20:16
popeyAlanBell: not for the same reason as we ship unity 3d and gnome classic was my point20:17
AlanBellyeah, sorry didn't mean to derail your point, was just an observation20:17
AlanBellinstalled it for a client the other day (they suggested centos and provided the CD)20:18
zleapwell i don't thjink my duron 1600 with geforce 4 can handle unity20:18
zleapso sticking with 10.04 till i get a hardware upgrade20:18
popeyhave you tried it zleap ?20:18
zleapwell tried to boot it ages ago (ubunty 11.04 beta) and it failed, i may try again20:19
zleapi have an iso on my desktop so can make a usb flash drive thingy and try it20:19
popeyi would20:20
gordgeforce 4 might work, i would guess its dependant on how good your drivers are20:20
gordie: the open source ones might suck20:20
zleapso apart from the mac like menus, where the bar at the top displays the app menu,  and the side bar thing which I guess is an app launcher, what advantages does unity have ?20:21
jenkinsI am unconvinced by unity at the moment, I have only tried in a vm. feels very basic and not very shiny, also rather like a mac dare i say it20:21
zleapjenkins, yeah20:21
zleapthing is i need basic, so my processor can spend time running applications not eye candy20:22
gordwe tried a more complicated unity in 10.10 - people don't like complicated, a lot of the current UI makes sense so why change everything?20:22
jenkinsI do use awn :? but going to try gnome 3 as it looks like they had some nice design ideas20:22
zleapoohhh gnome 3 looks er nice20:26
jenkinsit does although to try it I am downloading fedora 15 alpah20:26
iasonasHello, I formatted in Windows (quick format) a drive that was ext4. Is there any way of getting the files back? I have tried TestDisk, it does find a deleted partition but that's it.20:27
zleapany idea if gnome 3 will be available for ubuntu 10.0420:28
gord10.04? no.20:29
jenkinsnot as far as i am aware, it is via a ppa for 11.04 but there are some small bugs dues to ubuntu packages20:29
jenkinszleap: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1707669 may be of interest20:29
gordi don't recommend that ppa at all20:30
gordi'v just seen lots of people have a huge number of problems20:30
jenkinscan't say i have tried it20:30
brobostigongord: i am using the gnome3-teams ppa, no issues yet,20:31
jenkinsbrobostigon:  did you get evince to install?20:32
brobostigonjenkins: yes, no issues, justused it.20:32
jenkinsstrange been reading that there is a conflict on the new version, may be they have fixed it20:33
brobostigonjenkins: it was updates afew daysago, i didnt notice any conflict or similer,20:33
DJonesEvening all20:34
jenkinsgood to know may try installing natty later then20:34
brobostigonubuntu one is being a bigger issue, and gpu lockup.20:34
brobostigoneating and ircing, is not easy.20:36
gordsometimes it pays to not multi-task ;)20:37
brobostigonfood, with eeepc + top gear,20:37
jenkinsbe back off to try f1520:41
AlanBellanyone else having a go at a Natty install?20:44
BigRedSfedora? ewww20:44
BigRedSI just dist upgraded my VM and it's now not broken :)20:44
BigRedSthough I did afterwards remember you're not supposed to dist-upgrade any more20:44
brobostigonBigRedS: why?20:44
BigRedSwell, now not knowingly broken20:44
BigRedSIt used to look like Gnome in 2002, now it's got the ubuntu colours20:45
zleaplxde looks cool20:46
brobostigonopenbox is a good WM.20:46
zleapi may switch to that where I am helping out could give some of the old computers we are building improved performance20:46
zleapthat too20:46
BigRedSyeah, I like the sound of lxde20:47
BigRedSopenbox without the faff :)20:47
zleapwell something that runs on 9.04 and has low memory requirements20:47
zleapare they easy to lock down20:47
brobostigonBigRedS: openbox is lxde's WM.20:47
BigRedSbrobostigon: yeah, but it's already configured and has a panel and stuff20:47
DJonesAlanBell: I tried a natty install yesterday, but it crashed out during the install, trouble is I forgot tonote the error message & since installed 10.1020:47
brobostigonBigRedS: thats lxde ontop of openbox,20:48
zleapis there a site somewhere that compares window managers and memory usage ?20:48
zleapwb jenkins20:49
jenkinsthanks, running a live gnome 3 and first impressions change is good. I like it.20:50
brobostigonjenkins: what gnome-shell build version is it?20:50
jenkinswhere do you find out?20:52
brobostigonindebian i would look via apt-cache.20:52
brobostigonjenkins: ok,  it might be easier to ask, when the cd image was made?20:53
jenkinsI will look in add/remove software, just hopped there was an about dialogue20:53
zleapsystem - about gnome gives some info on build version (not sure if its gnone shell build version)20:53
jenkinscd is the fedora 15 alpaha downlaoded today cd released 8th march20:55
jenkinsstill have the minize buttons in so i guess its a bit old20:55
brobostigonjenkins: yes,very old, loads ofgood changes after that,20:55
AlanBellso if anyone happens to be doing an install, can you hit space after the bios, select english then press F5 to get to the accessibility options, pick one of them at random and go through the install as you would have done anyway, and report bugs if it seems broken20:56
jenkinsbrobostigon: the mimize buttons going may take a bit of getting use to20:57
brobostigonAlanBell: i will see whatican do, when i try an install next week on my mums machine.20:57
brobostigonjenkins: no, not really, because you have nowhere to minimise to, so, why have minimise, if you have no tradional desktop to minimise to, and have different window manaegement to need minimise to change between windows, it just isnt needed really bt design.20:58
jenkinsI see what you mean I am sure i will get use to it.20:59
ali1234reminds me of when they removed the close button on windows mobile21:00
ali1234"just leave all programs running all the time" they said21:00
jenkinsand the buttons are on the right! May have to move them :)21:01
brobostigonjenkins: you wont need to get used to it not being there, as you will have no need for them.21:02
jenkinsbrobostigon: I guess I will use more work spaces with out a mimize button21:05
=== d3ngar__ is now known as d3ngar
brobostigonjenkins: that is one intention, yes, workspaces do give better program manegement.21:05
d3ngarJust to let you guys know21:06
BigRedScan give better program management21:06
d3ngarI solved the routing problem with my VPN21:06
BigRedSI dislike this idea that we should have one or the other21:06
BigRedSd3ngar: oooh, what was it?21:06
d3ngardirecthex gave me the right idea21:06
d3ngarBut it needed to be sorted on the CLIENT side21:06
d3ngaradded a route with "route add..."21:07
d3ngarI posted it on ubuntuforums: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=171999221:07
brobostigonBigRedS: all it tries to do, is improve what wr already have.21:07
BigRedStbh, it feels about the same to me21:08
jenkinsI do wonder why have a light theme with a dark tool bar?21:08
d3ngarGotta reboot21:08
d3ngarSo thanks all21:08
BigRedSI just keep seeing this thing about how it's designed to make people use workspaces instead of alt-tabbing21:08
BigRedSwhich seems weird21:08
brobostigonBigRedS: jenkins here inside ubuntu, i get dark blue window bars.21:09
brobostigonsorry, tab fail.21:09
brobostigonBigRedS: not makepeople useworkspaces, but make that a good way of program manegement again, which was awful in gnome2.21:10
BigRedSreally? It works alright for me. Maybe I'm using them badly... :)21:11
BigRedSi've even got to the point where ctrl+alt+arrow seems fairly natural21:11
brobostigonBigRedS: i didnt like it, myself in gnome2, it workd, but i knew it could have been better,21:11
BigRedSmm, there's a few things that could be beter21:11
BigRedSI think Unity still does the thing I dislike of not binding an app to its workspace21:12
BigRedSwell,not by default. And I've not found a way to configure that21:12
BigRedSso you end up with firefox password dialog boxes hidden under windows on the wrong workspace21:12
BigRedSwhy on earth firefox wont accept input while one of those is up is beyond me21:13
brobostigonthat happens ingnome2. but not in gnome3 that i can see.21:13
silnerBigRedS, You mean it works too much like the Macos finder? That's what I don't like. It's the same thing I've never liked about the Mac21:13
BigRedSI don't remember finder that well :)21:14
BigRedSthough I'm giving OSX another go when I get round to sticking OSX on this mac mini I've got21:14
silnerIt seems really similar to me21:14
brobostigonbsd/darwin, ie, i have tried, i havent tried all the apple  stuff ontop.21:15
silnerI'm now in the awkward position of not liking Gnome 3 much and liking Unity less21:15
BigRedSI've had a really brief go on Gnome 3 and really disliked it. Unity just feels like mildly broken Gnome so far21:16
brobostigonif i had my way, i wouldrun haiku every day, and be done with it, because that has the best, i have ever tried,21:16
BigRedSmy PCs are all running Squeeze, though, so I've always got some nice stability to go back to21:16
silnerI liked Haiku in theory, but in practice it lacks too much I need21:16
brobostigonBigRedS: when i was running sid, iwas running gnome-shell from experimental.21:16
brobostigonsilner: that is why, i cant use it, as much as i would like.21:17
BigRedSAh, no, I run Debian Testing as a concession away from stable, rather than for a more stable Unstable.21:17
BigRedSI don't want new :)21:17
brobostigonBigRedS: :)21:17
silnerBigRedS, I'm running Debian Stable at the moment, to get a way from all the new things I don't like. Do you know what happens if I change the repos to Testing updates - does it then act like a rolling release, or does it just mess everything up? I'd like to know before I do it :)21:19
BigRedSTesting is a rolling release21:19
BigRedSso change sources.list to wheezy, read the release notes, dist-upgrade21:19
BigRedSand then just keep running upgrades21:20
brobostigonBigRedS: so is unstable, thing move from sid/unstable to testing dont they.21:20
silnerSo changing from "Squeeze" to "testing in the updates section of the repos should do what I want?21:20
BigRedSno, change sources.list to testing :) else you'll end up on stable soon21:20
BigRedSsilner: yeah. With a dist-upgrade, though. I don't think there was anything notable in the release notes, but I can't really remember21:20
BigRedSbrobostigon: yeah, but they change an awful lot less in testing21:21
brobostigonBigRedS: very true,21:21
silnerBigRedS, does dist-upgrade work the same as it does on Ubuntu?21:21
BigRedSsilner: yeah, exactly the same apt21:21
BigRedSor aptitude, if you prefer21:21
silnerIt's just there are a few apps that are too old on Stable, only one or two so it's annoying but still21:22
BigRedSyeah, that's why I'm on testing21:22
brobostigonsilner: backports?21:22
BigRedSyou *can* use pinning or backports, but testing's so stable really that I don't see the point in stable on a workstation really21:23
silnerI've never used that brobostigon how do you do it (being lazy to not search)21:23
BigRedSit's a repo to add, and suddenly new versions are available :)21:23
silnerSo I may as well move to testing21:23
silnerAh right21:23
brobostigonsilner: for stable there is a backports repo, i cant rmemeber the string right now,21:24
silnerI wouldn't mind using that if I can find it cos for a couple of apps it would be quicker than dist-upgrade21:25
silnerI'll have atihnk21:25
BigRedSI think you can just stick that in your sources.list21:25
BigRedSelse, there'll be a howto on the site :)21:25
brobostigonou can, yes.21:25
silnerThat looks really convenient. I don't even have to enable it permanently21:27
silnerDebian does come up with clever systems21:27
BigRedSyeah, I do maintain that it's pretty much the most user friendly OS there is21:28
BigRedSbut I would, I suppose. It's my favrit :)21:28
brobostigonapt/dpkg is certainly the best package manegement i have experienced. that kind, is what we need in idea, on haiku.21:30
BigRedSyeah, I get quite frustrated when I need to use OSs that don't have it21:30
brobostigonand is planned for r1.21:30
silnerWhich is the main #Debian support channel BigRedS - is it here or on OFTC?21:57
dutchieoftc iirc21:58
BigRedSoftc is the official one21:58
BigRedSI idle on the one here, sometimes, but I've yet to have a question that's not a google away21:59
silnerIt's not so much that BigRedS as I like to soak up other people's questions :)22:03
dwatkinsI also like to learn from what others ask.22:03
silnerYeah, that way you learnt the stuff you didn't know you didn't know :)22:04
dwatkinsexactly, silner :)22:08
dwatkinsI listen to the TWiT security podcast for the same reason22:08
silnerdwatkins, I used to listen to that, but I've got a bit overloaded with Podcasts lately22:09
silnerdwatkins, I still get that one Randal Scwartz does22:10
* silner trying to remember name22:10
b1ackcr0whey all!22:11
dwatkinsbrb, need to feed the hamster...22:11
popeysilner: floss weekly22:16
b1ackcr0wI've been considering Chirality in the the Unity interface22:16
silnerThat's the one popey :)22:17
willy1977evening all22:17
willy1977anyone have any experience with ant+ (garmin sports devices in particular)22:18
* willy1977 thinks that may be a very long shot...22:19
b1ackcr0wis it easy to shift the main app bar over to the right hand side of the screen in Unity22:20
b1ackcr0wdoes anybody think that the main controls on a touch screen should be on the side of the the dominant chiral hand of 70 to 90% of the population?22:23
b1ackcr0wso how come they're on the other side?22:23
ali1234unfortunately only one guy's opinion counts22:23
ali1234and that guy isn't me or you22:23
brobostigonno, i amleft handed. :(22:23
ali1234unity isn't compatible with touchscreens anyway due to the dumb menu hiding stuff22:24
gordonjcpb1ackcr0w: I think the whole thing is terrible22:24
b1ackcr0wso, why can't they be moved so that 100% of people can have a comfortable interface?22:24
gordonjcpits behaviour is totally random22:24
gordonjcpyou double-click a little square, maybe it'll launch an app and maybe it won't22:25
gordonjcpmaybe it'll make some app windows whirl around the screen a bit22:25
brobostigonb1ackcr0w: it wouldnt be 100%, a significant amount of people are left handed.22:25
dutchiebrobostigon: he means to make it configurable i think22:25
b1ackcr0wbrobostigon: it would be if you had chiral choice22:25
gordonjcpI don't get how you're supposed to switch between apps in unity22:26
b1ackcr0wi've been using alt-tab22:26
brobostigonb1ackcr0w: i am all for choice, but nothave itset to onside, andno be changeable.22:26
gordonjcpb1ackcr0w: I tried that but it just brought up some little squares22:27
ali1234is natty working in virtualbox yet?22:27
b1ackcr0woh lord. are the project team of the opinion they can change all these things?22:27
b1ackcr0w(ready for release date I mean)22:28
BigRedSali1234: appears to be for me22:28
BigRedSb1ackcr0w: all what things? It's really quite usable, really22:29
BigRedSer, not that I'm actually using it generally, but from faffing in a vm I can't find any horrible brokenness22:29
ali1234the menu hiding is horribly broken if you use a touch screen22:29
gordonjcpBigRedS: I've still not found a way to turn off the drop shadows22:30
ali1234as is putting all the menus on the left hand side22:30
gordonjcpBigRedS: and I've not figured out how to get the taskbar back22:30
b1ackcr0wI've gone seperate /home and have a big touchscreen on my desk22:30
gordonjcpBigRedS: and ALT-F2 is broken22:30
b1ackcr0wit seemed natural for me to try it22:30
ali1234also it still doesn't work in virtualbox, it just restarts unity over and over22:30
willy1977natty on vm is working I thought that's what Alan did during the virtual jam?22:31
ali1234it's not working for me22:31
BigRedSali1234: it's working for me...22:31
willy1977it drops down to a 2d interface?22:31
b1ackcr0wi think you can get it going by changin to a different vm bios22:31
BigRedSah, yeah, that's the bit that's working forme, the 2d interface22:31
ali1234it incorrectly detects that 3d is working and then restarts over and over when it fails22:31
brobostigonwilly1977: he did, and dfaultedback to gnomeclassic, not unity.22:32
willy1977brobostigon: ahhhh... ok22:32
ali1234hang on there's some more updates22:32
ali1234ok, it's working now22:38
ali1234well, sort of22:38
brobostigongood night everyone, sleep well.22:40
* Azelphur pokes22:41
ali1234the launcher thing is hiding22:50
ali1234it won't come out22:50
bigcalmGood evening peeps22:54
Pendulumhiya bigcalm22:55
bigcalmHey Pendulum, did I miss much today?22:55
Pendulumbigcalm: I doubt it22:58
ali1234here's a puzzler for you: http://imagebin.org/14649922:58
BigRedSwanting to unmaximise firefox is such a rare use-case, though22:59
bigcalmI just went to the top right to minimize chrome :(23:03
ali1234the new start menu thing is just awful23:04
ali1234btw what are these things called?23:04
ali1234how am i supposed to switch between applications when i have a window maximized?23:06
ali1234lol the window switcher is broken23:07
bigcalmpopey: ping23:09
ali1234oh, it's cos i have one of the apps marked always on top23:10
ali1234ah, another problem: how do i access the menu you get when right clicking the window title if the window is maximized?23:10
BigRedShah, I've started using that start menu in place of the normal Gnome set of three23:10
ali1234it's bad for the simple reason that i don't do any of the things it wants me to23:11
BigRedSAh, I find it good 'cause it lets me have a narrower panel :)23:12
ali1234and you can't edit it23:12
BigRedSI lauch pretty much everything from alt+f2, so it's only there for just-in-case23:12
ali1234"view photos" "check email" "listen to music" - well, i don't use the default apps for any of those things23:12
BigRedSOh, I assumed there'd be an editor for it in unity23:12
ali1234so pretty much the whole first page of it is jut a waste of my time23:12
ali1234then when you dig deeper it just gets worse23:13
ali1234every page has a MRU list23:13
ali1234which means the icons constantly move around23:13
ali1234so you can't learn where they are23:13
ali1234then you have a row for "installed" which is fine23:13
BigRedSHm. I think I need to spend more time using it to get a proper opinion23:13
BigRedSbut you are putting me off doing so somewhat :)23:13
ali1234except it only shows the first few things, most of which are not the thing i'm looking for, and then i have to expand it out23:13
ali1234if you use the menu editor to hide the things you don't want, it only seems to affect the classic gnome menu, not unity23:14
ali1234so if i don't want to see eg "remote desktop viewer" on unity menu, i have to uninstall it completely i guess23:14
BigRedSthat's a bit dumb23:14
ali1234then there's the "apps available for download" bit23:15
BigRedSis this all in bugs already?23:15
ali1234it's like, rather than show me what i have installed and therefore probably want to use, it's going to show me a bunch of stuff i have chosen not to install, and therefore probably do not want to use23:16
ali1234these aren't bugs, these are someone's idea of features23:16
BigRedSyeah, it's that assumption that you're not intelligent enough to realise you can install stuff and need constantly reminding of it23:17
BigRedSIt's like the "Your system's too free. Have a binary blob graphics driver" popups you've had for a while23:17
ali1234not only that but if i want one of those programs and install it, it just excacerbates the problem of NOT showing installed programs in lieu of uninstalled ones, since there's always going to be more stuff that i've not installed23:18
ali1234i might see "amazing app x" in that bit, install it, then it will disappear into the "click here to show 7364 more apps" part23:18
ali1234yeah i don't mind that graphics driver popup because i do actually use that driver23:19
ali1234i only see it once per install... if there was a popup for every single thing that i haven't installed (which is what this effectively is) then ... that's different23:19
BigRedSyeah, maybe it's just as well that I've got into the habit of not using the menus23:20
ali1234if these apps are so great why aren't they installed by default over the stuff that's buried in the depths of the "click here for more" part23:20
ubuntuuk-planet[Alan Bell] Jamming in the UK - http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2011/04/03/jamming-in-the-uk/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=jamming-in-the-uk23:23
bigcalmSending work emails at 11.45pm, I must be mad23:47
Pendulumbigcalm: can it not wait until the morning?23:48
BigRedSor fishing for overtime23:48
bigcalmPendulum: unless I get up at 7am (I struggle to get up for 9am). It's sent to my boss for him to convert into a quote for a client. Boss is on the train 1st thing tomorrow morning and he needs it for then. I'm a tad late in getting this email done :)23:49
bigcalmBigRedS: I don't get paid for overtime, I really should stop working outside of 9-6 mon-fri23:50
bigcalmOn the laptop in bed with Hayley curled up beside me. Might be time to shut down and get some shut-eye23:51
bigcalmGood night kids :)23:52

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